Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Lemmy]

You know, I used to think it was kind of silly how you could go to all this effort to capture a Legendary Pokemon, probably using the Master Ball, and then it turns out that they're not that much better than regular-ass Pokemon.

"Go, Embodiment of Time Itself. Crush my... Oh crap, she's got a Miltank!"

But now that I think about it... What if the Pokedex entries are 100% literal and the reason that mortal Pokemon can reasonably compete with literal gods is becuase pokemon in general are just that strong?

If that's true, humans of pokémon world are pretty damn powerful too. Some of them fight pokémon mano-a-mano. And even a child can throw rocks at them with enough force to annoy or scare them away.

[Traab]

You know, I used to think it was kind of silly how you could go to all this effort to capture a Legendary Pokemon, probably using the Master Ball, and then it turns out that they're not that much better than regular-ass Pokemon.

"Go, Embodiment of Time Itself. Crush my... Oh crap, she's got a Miltank!"

But now that I think about it... What if the Pokedex entries are 100% literal and the reason that mortal Pokemon can reasonably compete with literal gods is becuase pokemon in general are just that strong?

Or what if the pokemon world is like demon world in yu yu hakusho which is why its tough enough to survive having pokemon that by all rights should be setting off nuke level attacks constantly without taking much damage? If these pokemon existed on earth we would all be dead, but poke-world and its inhabitants are that much more durable. Evidenced by the endless number of times ash has been hit by actual bolts of lightning, or when brock had his vulpix which tended to launch a flamethrower into everyones face causing little more damage than soot stains. Or team rocket being launched well over the horizon and never once having a broken bone quite possibly over 1000x times by now as everything around them exploded.

[Kantaki]

So what I'm getting from all this is that Ash vs. Superman would be a fair fight.

Also, not really surprisrd by the last battle. That outcome was a foregone conclusion.

[Lord Raziere]

There are just so many pokemon that going by the fluff in their description would end all life on earth as we know it. Magcargo is so hot he should be igniting the atmosphere around him into plasma just by existing. Im honestly not sure if thats an exaggeration but here, read this description, Maybe a smarty in the comment section can tell me exactly how far away from magcargo you would have to stand to not instantly burst into flames.

yeah, according to Lockstin in this video analyzing magcargos temperature during the battle you'd be fine as long you stay like, a hundred feet away. the real danger is when Magcargo is released from a pokeball whose heat would cause a massive explosion.

You know, I used to think it was kind of silly how you could go to all this effort to capture a Legendary Pokemon, probably using the Master Ball, and then it turns out that they're not that much better than regular-ass Pokemon.

"Go, Embodiment of Time Itself. Crush my... Oh crap, she's got a Miltank!"

But now that I think about it... What if the Pokedex entries are 100% literal and the reason that mortal Pokemon can reasonably compete with literal gods is becuase pokemon in general are just that strong?

this reminds me that when I was young, I for some reason used a master ball to catch a miltank, my brother teased about it years later and I hated it. but now its like, I can catch legendaries with quick balls and do the work to catch them in ultra balls anyways, so I wonder if I was just ahead of my time.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Esdeath Vs Grey

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Well she's more powerful, smarter, more experienced, and more ruthless. So yeah, not a surprise she utterly destroyed Grey. I mean, they actually undercut Esdeath's feats and she still won.

Next time: Well I can see it going one of two ways, either they go by the Pokedex which gives you some pretty crazy and weird power levels. Or they go by the anime/game, in which case it's going to be much closer. I'm not super familiar with Goro, so that makes things difficult, but I'm pretty sure Machamp will win even going by the anime feats.

[Traab]

Spoiler: Esdeath Vs Grey

Show

Well she's more powerful, smarter, more experienced, and more ruthless. So yeah, not a surprise she utterly destroyed Grey. I mean, they actually undercut Esdeath's feats and she still won.

Next time: Well I can see it going one of two ways, either they go by the Pokedex which gives you some pretty crazy and weird power levels. Or they go by the anime/game, in which case it's going to be much closer. I'm not super familiar with Goro, so that makes things difficult, but I'm pretty sure Machamp will win even going by the anime feats.

The only reason they might ignore the fluff is if it would totally unbalance the battle and even then they dont always ignore it. I think we have pretty good odds they will go straight to the pokedex when they are done showing anime and game clips and mentioning all the tms it can learn as well as what it learns naturally. Kind of the icing on the cake. On the other hand, they might try to pull something similar with goro, wasnt there some sort of mk lore about how the fights are altered so humans can fight gods on an equal footing which means goro might be stronger/weaker than he seems on first glance?

[Dragonus45]

The only reason they might ignore the fluff is if it would totally unbalance the battle and even then they dont always ignore it. I think we have pretty good odds they will go straight to the pokedex when they are done showing anime and game clips and mentioning all the tms it can learn as well as what it learns naturally. Kind of the icing on the cake. On the other hand, they might try to pull something similar with goro, wasnt there some sort of mk lore about how the fights are altered so humans can fight gods on an equal footing which means goro might be stronger/weaker than he seems on first glance?

When they are using noncanon dvd notes that contradict in universe events and the minigames from fighting games they have gone way past the point of no return on deciding to leave things out for balance reasons.

[Prime32]

Well I can see it going one of two ways, either they go by the Pokedex which gives you some pretty crazy and weird power levels. Or they go by the anime/game, in which case it's going to be much closer. I'm not super familiar with Goro, so that makes things difficult, but I'm pretty sure Machamp will win even going by the anime feats.

With the way they usually count feats, does that mean game Machamp has both Fissure and No Guard?

[Traab]

With the way they usually count feats, does that mean game Machamp has both Fissure and No Guard?

They seem to be against cherry picking like that, hence why cloud didnt go into his fight with mastered kotr counter blah blah blah materia combos that let him do basically infinite damage. Its strange really, they cherry pick the best actual feats, often misinterpreting them to get even crazier, but with characters that players can actually build they claim to want to go with "iconic" versions. Like, if they ever put skyrim guy in a death battle, he would have sword and shield, fus ro dah, and thats about it. Sure he could be maxxed stealth and sneak attack and insta gib his opponent for absurd damage instead, but "thats not iconic" (also somebody is going to take an arrow to the knee in the fight but thats neither here nor there)

[HolyDraconus]

They seem to be against cherry picking like that, hence why cloud didnt go into his fight with mastered kotr counter blah blah blah materia combos that let him do basically infinite damage. Its strange really, they cherry pick the best actual feats, often misinterpreting them to get even crazier, but with characters that players can actually build they claim to want to go with "iconic" versions. Like, if they ever put skyrim guy in a death battle, he would have sword and shield, fus ro dah, and thats about it. Sure he could be maxxed stealth and sneak attack and insta gib his opponent for absurd damage instead, but "thats not iconic" (also somebody is going to take an arrow to the knee in the fight but thats neither here nor there)

That very fight you mentioned with cloud they cherry picked from several different games, soo.......

[Traab]

That very fight you mentioned with cloud they cherry picked from several different games, soo.......

Not for cloud they didnt. They gave him his basic buster blade (because iconic) and like two basic materia iirc. Now LINK got a serious selection of gear from multiple games but thats a whole other issue thats been argued ad nauseum before this.

[Lord Raziere]

Not for cloud they didnt. They gave him his basic buster blade (because iconic) and like two basic materia iirc. Now LINK got a serious selection of gear from multiple games but thats a whole other issue thats been argued ad nauseum before this.

Yeah, they kind of are a bit unfair on how they handle things. they will accept statements about one characters power as if its true and then for some reason deny any statements about another and say you need actual visual proof to back it up. similarly Cloud depends on the player to get his gear, but so does Link- and Link often starts out without any gear to start with. so they accept that the player is allowed to influence Link's gear but not Cloud, and while Link has a more tightly bound progression, it is possible to not get all the hearts or whatever for Link just as its possible for Cloud to not get his best gear. if "iconic" means "starting gear uninfluenced by the player" Link shouldn't have anything but the green clothes on his back because often even getting the shield and sword are things a player must do in the game.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, they kind of are a bit unfair on how they handle things. they will accept statements about one characters power as if its true and then for some reason deny any statements about another and say you need actual visual proof to back it up. similarly Cloud depends on the player to get his gear, but so does Link- and Link often starts out without any gear to start with. so they accept that the player is allowed to influence Link's gear but not Cloud, and while Link has a more tightly bound progression, it is possible to not get all the hearts or whatever for Link just as its possible for Cloud to not get his best gear. if "iconic" means "starting gear uninfluenced by the player" Link shouldn't have anything but the green clothes on his back because often even getting the shield and sword are things a player must do in the game.

They did define iconic though. They defined it as equipment that is seen in other media like fighting games, movies, and the like. When you see Link, he's pretty much always got the Master Sword, the Hylian Shield, bombs, arrows, grappling hook, and a boomerang. Cloud gets the Buster Sword, and a couple of basic Materia.

[Anteros]

They did define iconic though. They defined it as equipment that is seen in other media like fighting games, movies, and the like. When you see Link, he's pretty much always got the Master Sword, the Hylian Shield, bombs, arrows, grappling hook, and a boomerang. Cloud gets the Buster Sword, and a couple of basic Materia.

Ok, but they gave Link all kinds of other things that aren't iconic for him. Like the golden gauntlets that they based their whole argument on to give Link the win. If they wanted to be fair then they'd have given him the equipment you listed and not every single item he has access to in every game. It's actually completely absurd how ridiculous and biased they can be at times.

[Forum Explorer]

Ok, but they gave Link all kinds of other things that aren't iconic for him. Like the golden gauntlets that they based their whole argument on to give Link the win. If they wanted to be fair then they'd have given him the equipment you listed and not every single item he has access to in every game. It's actually completely absurd how ridiculous and biased they can be at times.

They also gave Cloud some stuff that wasn't iconic as well. As far as I can tell, they gave them all upgrades that weren't visible, which does blatantly favor Link.

Anyways, I do agree they messed up that fight, but not because of Cloud's loadout. I seriously don't know how I would come to a loadout for Cloud considering the vast range Cloud has. But they messed up with Link. They should have just chosen a single Link and used that one. If they can't decide, than do a Link Battle Royale to find the strongest Link. But the mismash is just confusing and gets to be distinctly none of the Links.

[Traab]

They also gave Cloud some stuff that wasn't iconic as well. As far as I can tell, they gave them all upgrades that weren't visible, which does blatantly favor Link.

Anyways, I do agree they messed up that fight, but not because of Cloud's loadout. I seriously don't know how I would come to a loadout for Cloud considering the vast range Cloud has. But they messed up with Link. They should have just chosen a single Link and used that one. If they can't decide, than do a Link Battle Royale to find the strongest Link. But the mismash is just confusing and gets to be distinctly none of the Links.

I mean personally, I would give cloud his best loadout for a generic fight since he wouldnt know what he is facing. So his strongest sword and armor, Maxxed hp/mp, the ability to heal and cast barriers, and some good old fashioned emerald weapon murdering cheese materia that basically lets him unleash end game boss destroying levels of damage every time he attacks or is attacked. After all, these fights are supposed to be peak feats.

[Kitten Champion]

I mean personally, I would give cloud his best loadout for a generic fight since he wouldnt know what he is facing. So his strongest sword and armor, Maxxed hp/mp, the ability to heal and cast barriers, and some good old fashioned emerald weapon murdering cheese materia that basically lets him unleash end game boss destroying levels of damage every time he attacks or is attacked. After all, these fights are supposed to be peak feats.

Yes, anything less is effectively making a purely arbitrary decision to hobble him. Otherwise, how do they justify taking stronger feats from - at times - entirely different characters altogether like with Green Lantern? Or various iterations of the same character from different mediums with diverging representations like Optimus Prime?

Is Cloud's min-maxxed strength, with his strongest gear and Lucky 7's activated absurd? Yes, totally. He can kill planet-destroying monsters in seconds by himself. Should that matter? Maybe, but only if they treated every battle the same way.

[HolyDraconus]

Not for cloud they didnt. They gave him his basic buster blade (because iconic) and like two basic materia iirc. Now LINK got a serious selection of gear from multiple games but thats a whole other issue thats been argued ad nauseum before this.

I meant the fight WITH Cloud, not FOR Cloud. But to add to the ramblings, Cloud's default materia is ALL the materia, as explained in Advent Children.

[Lemmy]

I meant the fight WITH Cloud, not FOR Cloud. But to add to the ramblings, Cloud's default materia is ALL the materia, as explained in Advent Children.

That's a good point... If AC is canon (and I think it is, even though I don't like it very much), Cloud has basically every materia ever.

[Rater202]

I'd pay good money for someone to take all of DB's data and redo the fights with everyone following the same rules.

And uh, adding in things that DB ignored like how Carnage survived a bomb with a world-wide fallout radius and eventually became immune to fire and sonics or how Namor had planet-wide macro-hydrokenisis and thus could have literally turned the Ocean itself against Aquaman. (He was also once bonded to the Phoenix Force but that's a bit of a stretch to use... But DB's made bigger stretches.)

Or alternatively not take special feats and tree them as normal. Shazam punching a black hole into existence is something he did when he was 100X his normal size and thus at least 100X as strong

[Forum Explorer]

Yes, anything less is effectively making a purely arbitrary decision to hobble him. Otherwise, how do they justify taking stronger feats from - at times - entirely different characters altogether like with Green Lantern? Or various iterations of the same character from different mediums with diverging representations like Optimus Prime?

Is Cloud's min-maxxed strength, with his strongest gear and Lucky 7's activated absurd? Yes, totally. He can kill planet-destroying monsters in seconds by himself. Should that matter? Maybe, but only if they treated every battle the same way.

I can agree to that, though I feel that points more to the absurdity of always using peak feats. I mean, I don't like that they use peak strength because I think it's ridiculous and ignores a lot of important data, but if you are going to use peak strength than you should commit to it, and use it for everyone.

I meant the fight WITH Cloud, not FOR Cloud. But to add to the ramblings, Cloud's default materia is ALL the materia, as explained in Advent Children.

I don't remember that, though admittedly I wasn't paying that much attention last time I was watching Advent Children.

[Lemmy]

I'd pay good money for someone to take all of DB's data and redo the fights with everyone following the same rules.

That would be interesting. The whole reason I stopped watching DB was because of their heavily biased (and sometimes downright dishonest) "research".

Or alternatively not take special feats and tree them as normal. Shazam punching a black hole into existence is something he did when he was 100X his normal size and thus at least 100X as strong

This one is particularly important IMO. Specially when they insist on matching characters from shirt/limited run series vs characters with decades of history from series that never end (e.g.: Scrooge McDuck vs Shovel Knight probably being the worst offender here, but Carnage vs Lucy probably applies as well).

[Prime32]

One matchup I kind of want to see: Terumi (BlazBlue) vs Blood Stalk (Kamen Rider Build).

A man enters a café, walks up to a customer in a three-piece suit and and nervously asks "Are you Captain Hazama?". After receiving a nod he sits down, and the two begin a serious discussion about military matters. The focus then shifts to a member of the staff, who draws a gun with shaking hands and points it at Hazama's head, shouting "This is for my family!". Before he can fire, he's stabbed by another worker, who cries and says "I'm sorry honey, he gave me no choice!". The two at the table just keep drinking their coffee while more implied murders and betrayals can be heard off-screen. Eventually things turn quiet, the two men crack smirks, and one asks "Shall we get started then?".
Their battle gradually escalates from a knife-fight that knocks over chairs, to both fighters riding around on giant energy snakes, to Evolt throwing black holes that Susanoo parries with his sword.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Man, I would love to see one of Worm's Endbringers pitted against something.

Leviathan v. Godzilla, for instance, would be great. Leviathan holds a big edge in speed and probably even in toughness, but its offensive powers are best suited to crushing/drowning human heroes, destroying infrastructure, and reshaping the landscape. I'm pretty sure Godzilla could just tank the first and last, and I think Godzilla's feats of strength exceed anything we've seen Leviathan pull. Plus, Godzilla's radiation breath is far better suited to taking on a fellow kaiju, being lots of concentrated firepower.

If the battle took place underwater, or went on long enough for Leviathan to turn the environment to its advantage, I think Leviathan takes it. On land/in a city it would be a much closer battle.

Spoiler: Worm spoilers

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Unless they gave Leviathan its nanotech enhancements. Then I don't think it's even close. We also don't have a good baseline for what an Endbringer's power looks like when it's not holding back. OTOH, Leviathan being compelled to hold back is a fair weakness as far as DB rules are concerned, since it doesn't hinder its willingness to kill.

[Forum Explorer]

Man, I would love to see one of Worm's Endbringers pitted against something.

Leviathan v. Godzilla, for instance, would be great. Leviathan holds a big edge in speed and probably even in toughness, but its offensive powers are best suited to crushing/drowning human heroes, destroying infrastructure, and reshaping the landscape. I'm pretty sure Godzilla could just tank the first and last, and I think Godzilla's feats of strength exceed anything we've seen Leviathan pull. Plus, Godzilla's radiation breath is far better suited to taking on a fellow kaiju, being lots of concentrated firepower.

If the battle took place underwater, or went on long enough for Leviathan to turn the environment to its advantage, I think Leviathan takes it. On land/in a city it would be a much closer battle.

Spoiler: Worm spoilers

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Unless they gave Leviathan its nanotech enhancements. Then I don't think it's even close. We also don't have a good baseline for what an Endbringer's power looks like when it's not holding back. OTOH, Leviathan being compelled to hold back is a fair weakness as far as DB rules are concerned, since it doesn't hinder its willingness to kill.

The problem with Worm's Endbringers is their insane durability. I legitimately don't think Godzilla could do any meaningful damage to Leviathan

[Rater202]

Legendary or Shin Godzilla, or Godzilla Earth, could pick up and swallow Levithan whole.

The endbringers are about the size of large land animals.

Also, Wildbow has stated that, while the Endbringers behave as though the had the mass of a galaxy's spiral arm, an attack capable of scouring a planet of life concentrated and hitting them where their core is would kill them, so it's possible that Godzilla Earth could wreck one though there'd be a lot of collateral damage. Not that Godzilla Earth cares.

(He also said that Saitama kills one in one punch)

[Dragonus45]

Legendary or Shin Godzilla, or Godzilla Earth, could pick up and swallow Levithan whole.

The endbringers are about the size of large land animals.

Also, Wildbow has stated that, while the Endbringers behave as though the had the mass of a galaxy's spiral arm, an attack capable of scouring a planet of life concentrated and hitting them where their core is would kill them, so it's possible that Godzilla Earth could wreck one though there'd be a lot of collateral damage. Not that Godzilla Earth cares.

(He also said that Saitama kills one in one punch)

Yea Endbringers are hard to even gauge because they are jobbing in literally every fight we see them in.Ever.

Spoiler: Ward Spoilers

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I'm still not convinced they weren't jobbing in the Scion fight considering the way that Simurgh's long term plan has been laid out in Ward.

I honestly don't think Godzilla would actually do much to one. The only moves that have ever dealt real damage to them involved dimensional shenanigans to bypass things like mass entirely. That said, I'm not entirely certain what Leviathan could ever do to harm Godzilla either, outside of the nano thorn stuff which would probably dice Godzilla to bits. Leviathan is a bad match-up for Godzilla anyways. That feels like a Behemoth fight, which I think is an outright loss for the Big G. And of course you really can't have a deathbattle involving Simurgh because she already won 15 years before it started and no one figured it out yet.

[Rynjin]

Legendary or Shin Godzilla, or Godzilla Earth, could pick up and swallow Levithan whole.

The endbringers are about the size of large land animals.

Leviathan and Behemoth are both several stories tall. That's a fair bit larger than the size of a "large land animal".

Also, Wildbow has stated that, while the Endbringers behave as though the had the mass of a galaxy's spiral arm, an attack capable of scouring a planet of life concentrated and hitting them where their core is would kill them, so it's possible that Godzilla Earth could wreck one though there'd be a lot of collateral damage. Not that Godzilla Earth cares.

(He also said that Saitama kills one in one punch)

Is Godzilla capable of razing the planet with a single blast? If so, why hasn't he ever done so?

[Rater202]

[QUOTE=Rynjin;24421765]Leviathan and Behemoth are both several stories tall. That's a fair bit larger than the size of a "large land animal".[/qute]Leviathan is only Thirty Feet tall. Behemoth only fifty.

Both of those sound very large, but in actually it's only very slightly taller than most large dinosaurs, which were "large land animals."

Is Godzilla capable of razing the planet with a single blast? If so, why hasn't he ever done so?

I don't know and "becuase he lives here."

[Forum Explorer]

[QUOTE=Rater202;24421815]

Leviathan and Behemoth are both several stories tall. That's a fair bit larger than the size of a "large land animal".[/qute]Leviathan is only Thirty Feet tall. Behemoth only fifty.

Both of those sound very large, but in actually it's only very slightly taller than most large dinosaurs, which were "large land animals."

I don't know and "becuase he lives here."

Large land animal is a horrible description because Horses, Rhinos, Giraffes, Bears and Elephants are all 'large land animals'. Basically Humans are considered medium sized, so significantly bigger than us and you are large. Significantly smaller than us and you are small.