Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Kitten Champion]

You gotta admit though: as terrible of a char Jar Jar is, he would of been palatable if he DID turn out to be the big bad. I was secretly hoping Jar Jar was behind the Sequel trilogy, to be honest.

It'd be like that Scooby Doo live action movie where they seriously made Scrappy Doo into the villain. It's only a thing because fans hated the character on a meta-level and the writers apparently decided to pander to that, not because it makes any objective sense for a Scooby Doo adaptation.

Even putting that aside and assuming they wanted to go this direction with Jar Jar from the beginning for whatever reason, why would they want another villain that would essentially be Palpatine but better when that's the whole point of Palpatine and his Phantom Menace? If you could write evil Jar Jar to the point that would actually makes sense, shouldn't you be using that same creative skill on the future Emperor and not a random barely-comprehensible cartoon rabbit?

[Rynjin]

Jar Jar as the mastermind.
Jar Jar.
I'm sorry, but what?
That makes even less sense than what we actually got.

I mean, I get it. He's really, really annoying, even if I think that gets blown out of proportion.
But let's be honest, the guy is a moron.
Him accidentally unleashing some ancient Sith spirit would be believable.
The whole "loveable" idiot suddenly being an act and Jar Jar having been the big bad evil mastermind all along?
That wouldn't so much break my suspension of disbelief, it would shatter all its bones, feed it feet first through a woodchipper and throw the still twitching pieces before a acid breathing shark.

Even with Palatine in the Prequels they threw in hints that the "kind old uncle" thing was an act.
Unnecessarily maybe, be all knew the guy was evil already, but it was there.
Jar Jar is just the clown, here to "lighten" the mood*, him without any prior hint being behind everything would be more jarring than Palpy suddenly being responsible for the Sequels.

And that got wordier than originally intended.

*That actually works well with him having less and less of a presence as the Prequels progress.
As the story gets darker and the tragedy unfolds there's less of a place for the clown.
And now I'm imagining Jar Jar being on Mustafar.

There's a lot of clear signs.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There's a lot of clear signs.

Wow, I knew about that theory, had read it even, but some of the most compelling evidence is in the replies. These scenes are the ones that sold me on the theory. Jar Jar is literally mouthing along with the speaker at pivotal points in the story, as though puppeting them. He's CGI. It is almost impossible for that to have happened by accident.

[Kantaki]

There's a lot of clear signs.

I mean, okay?
Nice theory, but I'm not sure I buy it.
The Yoda comparison is part of why- yes, he was introduced as a weirdo, but of the "spend a bit to long away from any form of civilization" variety, not Binks' "how the hell is he still alive" brand.

More importantly, the reveal came pretty fast, so the fact that we didn't get anything like that- say like Dooku and Sidious's "all according to plan" scene" in AotC -in Episode I makes me think the fool's just a fool.

And, to be honest I never had a problem with how he moved and stuff. He's a weird horse-faced frog bunny man living in a swamp, of course he can move pretty agile.

Also, I always figured sending the Jedi and Jar Jar through the core and making him general was Boss Nass trying to get the guy who crashed his ship killed without getting his hands dirty.
When that didn't work out he send his new "war hero" off to be destructive elsewhere.

Him being the deciding voice regarding the whole army/emergency powers thing has more to do with speaking for Naboo than anything else.

[awa]

Ive heard the fan theories for Jar Jar and I don't buy them. Star wars fan theories are notoriously unreliable. As a cute idea its fine but as an actual prediction of reality it would require George Lucas to be a very subtle man. Does George Lucas seem like a very subtle man? Besides if that was his actual plan for a hypothetical episode seven that never was there is no way someone would not have mentioned it somewhere.

[Traab]

Meh, fan theories are a dime a dozen for popular media, and they are all totally justifiable simply by taking single scenes or quotes out of context and ignoring literally everything else in the film. Like how Sauron is totally the good guy in lotr, its the races of man and elves and such that are evil. The rationale is, "Omg the orcs are forced to live in reservations in the poisonous wastelands hemmed in by impassable mountains and exploding volcanoes while the elves and men get their lush green world and blah blah blah" Oh, whats that? The silmarillion says they are evil monsters created through torture and horror? Yeah, ever heard of unreliable narrators before? IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE ELVES, MAN!!!!! Obviously the evil racist elves are going to demonize their enemies and relegate them to twisted monster status so nobody ever feels bad for them! Whats that? They are cannibals? What else are they supposed to eat? Marsh algae? Obsidian dust? Do YOU see any farmland in mordor? I sure dont. They are forced into it by those evil elves!

[Peelee]

You gotta admit though: as terrible of a char Jar Jar is, he would of been palatable if he DID turn out to be the big bad. I was secretly hoping Jar Jar was behind the Sequel trilogy, to be honest.

I don't have to admit at all, because I strongly disagree; in fact, that wound have made the sequels worse.

[HolyDraconus]

I don't have to admit at all, because I strongly disagree; in fact, that wound have made the sequels worse.

I mean, if you just shoe-horn that plot in without any additional adjustments yea, it would make it worse: but if they continued with the groundwork that was already laid; if they didn't go with what we know of today instead; it would, COULD work. Animation is time consuming and not cheap: on those points I felt that there was something more. It would of been nice, to me, if something else came up, but it is what it is.


Unless you meant the sequel trilogy.. in which case, I don't think there was anything save the whole thing being written off as a Force induced dream for Chewy that can, PERSONALLY

Spoiler: Cause I know there are a lot of people that need to see this

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It had its moments but I personally dislike the sequel films. I wanted Finn to actual live up to what was glimmered in the first movie, and... you know what, I'm just gonna say that as a whole I disliked them

salvage it.

[Anteros]

I disagree that Darth Jar Jar could ever work. It's one thing to take a hated character and make them a respectable villain. It's another thing entirely to take a character that's hated because they're a goofy, childish, laughingstock and try to make them into a serious threat. Most people are never going to take Jar Jar seriously, no matter what you try to write him into at this point.

[HolyDraconus]

I disagree that Darth Jar Jar could ever work. It's one thing to take a hated character and make them a respectable villain. It's another thing entirely to take a character that's hated because they're a goofy, childish, laughingstock and try to make them into a serious threat. Most people are never going to take Jar Jar seriously, no matter what you try to write him into at this point.

And if he was written into being the force equivalent of the Joker?

[Kantaki]

And if he was written into being the force equivalent of the Joker?

If the Joker were introduced acting like Jar Jar was he would be funny-funny instead of scary-funny.
(Or just scary, depending on the incarnation.)

So unless he was introduced a lot less clumsy and, well, stupid, Joke Jar wouldn't work.
Okay, it could work, but it would need a revelation in the same movie, maybe the next.
(So either in TPM or AotC)
A "the clown was the big bad all along" revelation in the Sequels... I don't think people would've bought it.
The Jar Jar haters- the ones that don't buy this theory already -would probably be annoyed the thing is on-screen again and those that like him- I assume they exist. Some people even like pineapple on pizza and that stuff objectively worse than the frog-bunny*. -would be ticked the character got ruined.

*I mean it. If you made me choose between watching a two hours long Jar Jar best-of movie or eating a pineapple pizza I'd rather suffer through the movie.

[Rynjin]

If the Joker were introduced acting like Jar Jar was he would be funny-funny instead of scary-funny.
(Or just scary, depending on the incarnation.)

Errr...he was, though. At least, to a lot of people. Many people were introduced to Batman, and by extension the Joker, by the Adam West Batman series or at the very least by comics of the time...where under the CCA he was pretty darn goofy.

And yet people don't have any problem buying the more threatening Joker that exists today, because an image can always turn around.

[Peelee]

Errr...he was, though. At least, to a lot of people. Many people were introduced to Batman, and by extension the Joker, by the Adam West Batman series or at the very least by comics of the time...where under the CCA he was pretty darn goofy.

And yet people don't have any problem buying the more threatening Joker that exists today, because an image can always turn around.

Because they are different continuities. Heath Ledger joker never called Batman mean names on the phone and then screamed like a ninny when Batman appeared in the window non-threateningly, for example. Darth Jar Jar, conversely, would have been a Sith Lord who was banished from his city for being clumsy and got his face paralyzed by lifting his head through the arc of a podracer. Same continuity, so the franchise is asking us to acknowledge that this oafish buffoon is really an evil mastermind. That is not the case for the Joker, which is why the Joker can still come off as menacing.

And I would not like multiple continuities in Star Wars yet again.

[HolyDraconus]

Because they are different continuities. Heath Ledger joker never called Batman mean names on the phone and then screamed like a ninny when Batman appeared in the window non-threateningly, for example. Darth Jar Jar, conversely, would have been a Sith Lord who was banished from his city for being clumsy and got his face paralyzed by lifting his head through the arc of a podracer. Same continuity, so the franchise is asking us to acknowledge that this oafish buffoon is really an evil mastermind. That is not the case for the Joker, which is why the Joker can still come off as menacing.

And I would not like multiple continuities in Star Wars yet again.

while true, I was under the impression that DC had one timeline....again. Like, wasn't that the point of all the Crisis?
Still Darth Jar IF built properly could work. Though he could easily be considered a different kind of Joker

[Lord Raziere]

while true, I was under the impression that DC had one timeline....again. Like, wasn't that the point of all the Crisis?

Comic books are full of retcons and reboots. At this point, its just cyclical to reboot the whole universe of a super universe by having a big crossover where a lot of people die off, then everything restarts fresh from zero with people starting their hero careers again. Crisis on Infinite Earths was only the start of that, despite the good it did in cleaning up a lot of the mess that was the continuity of pre-crisis DC. different eras of superheroes might as well be different characters, because they're often written by different people. and even after that, the point of Crisis wasn't to make one timeline, because there are parallel universes, the point was to make one continuity or canon as well as to clean up a lot of problems.

and thats before you got separate movie and animated continuities that one cannot possibly hold to the comic book continuity in any regard, as they are different formats, also written by different people with different needs to make their stories work. there is no just no way animated Batman is going be a 1:1 adaption of comic book Batman, no matter how well it is. at this point the superhero characters themselves are more mythical beings that we just put into various stories because it'd be interesting rather than people with clear storylines and beginnings middles and ends. Heath Ledger joker isn't a comic book joker, therefore separate continuity.

basically, when it comes to comic books, continuity only reliably extends as far as a single writer, and if your counting an entire comic book universe, as far as an entire decade. as soon as writers change and big finales start happening its time to get rid of the old for the new, because the new writer isn't going to handle a previous writer's work, they don't how to do that, they'd screw it up, might as well start anew so they can at least fairly do it on their own terms and interpretation. that and I sincerely doubt that the people who saw silver age joker are the same people seeing modern heath ledger joker now.

[Rater202]

while true, I was under the impression that DC had one timeline....again. Like, wasn't that the point of all the Crisis?
Still Darth Jar IF built properly could work. Though he could easily be considered a different kind of Joker

Yo're thinking of Marvel which ahs been, with minor exceptions, a single continues continuity since the days of Timely Comics(and some of the things that were removed from continuity, like the 1950s Captain America stories, later get reintroduced in a new context that better fit the rest of the continuity.)

DC rewrites its continuity every 5-15 years and occasionally either moves to a new universe or scraps everything and starts over even when it makes absolutely no sense to do so.

[DarthArminius]

I'd really like a horror themed Deathbattle one of these days. Maybe something like Michael Langdon (American Horror Story) V.S Pinhead (Hellraiser).

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: Winner is...!

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The Jedi. Lets get the raging out the way. Someone earlier said it and it held true, and they even touched upon it. IF going by the movies, Kakashi wouldn't even had a fight, it would of been a stomp. IF just the movies. EU was tossed in. Kakashi was done. Ben had the better reaction speed, better "magic" feats and a near inexhaustible supply of energy to keep the feats rolling. Kakashi didn't get the dual sharingan since it wasn't originally his. On top of that, the sharingan they said was useless in predicting Ben's attacks since Ben was just that much faster than him. They did explain in their way that as varied as Kakashi's tricks were it just wasn't enough to overcome that gulf. Tack on that Ben was scaled to Vader, since they tied in a clash, and Vader is the CHOSEN ONE, its what you think it is. The animation was very good this go around, for 3d models. I was surprised. The jokes were ok, and the High Ground Feat had an absurd calc to it, which was good. Entertaining fight to watch, and I can't argue much with their logic. I dislike the scaling though: Kakashi didn't do much of that but they did a LOT for Ben, for example, but I'm not entirely sure if it mattered in the long run. I thought it would be closer, if anything.

Spoiler: And Next time on Death Battle

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Danny Phantom vs American Dragon Jake Long. Now this one WOULD be a complete skip if it wasn't for one thing: they said several years ago that they would NOT do Danny Phantom cause his powers are weird. Plus I think Danny was one of those characters that when applied to the rules of Death Battle end up stronger than they normally are. I'm curious how it goes but I'm not in the slightest invested.

[Rynjin]

"This character wins because in non-canon stuff written by a million writers who've never spoken to each other before he gets power scaled".

lmao

Classic DB logic. Maybe next fight I should write Danny Phantom fanfics and send them in as evidence.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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Oh hey, the arbitrarily did a bunch of crap to give the fight to the person who should have lost. Again.

Spoiler: Next TIme'

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I'm gonna give it to Jake.

Danny Phantom has superhuman strength, toughness, speed, and flight. He can turn invisible, become intangible, reshape his body to avoid harm, sense supernatural phenomena, has powerful energy blasts, a supersonic scream, the ability to split himself into four with each split having his full power, and high-level cryokinesis being able to fire freeze rays, breath coldness, create and control ice and snow, and even infuse snow with Ecto-energy to create powerful freezing explosive. His ice powers, once fully trained, allowed him to fight on even level with a "God" Tier Ghost and win due to having type advantage.

Going by creator statements, as an Older Teenager, Danny will have the powers to see perfectly in complete darkness and absorb all of the "light" energy around himself to create a zone of absolute darkness.

Jake is strong, but he's only "mid-tier superhero" strong... Which is why he's going to win, becuase Deathbattles only does match ups this one-sided when they're planning to rob someone.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

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They did Kakashi dirty, and used the stupid Kenobi from EU that I don't consider valid, no surprise there, just as I suspected. Grade-A bull pulled out of obscurity, because why make sense when you can find something stupid and illogical someone wrote somewhere to force down everyone's throat as canon?

and yeah, Jake is going to win next because Death Battle's results are indistinguishable from being contrarian. its a train of logic that has rarely failed me when predicting these things.

[Anteros]

I mean, a lot of people in this very thread did predict this outcome. I don't see why you're all so shocked.

[Man on Fire]

"This character wins because in non-canon stuff written by a million writers who've never spoken to each other before he gets power scaled".

They had used composites before. Just last fight it was composite of multiple versions of Cable and Booster. As long as they can argue there is consistency between those versions and not like Archie Sonic who is ridiculously OP compared to other Sonics.

I mean, a lot of people in this very thread did predict this outcome. I don't see why you're all so shocked.

That's what I'm talking about, this thread has become salt for the sake of salt.

[Rynjin]

They had used composites before. Just last fight it was composite of multiple versions of Cable and Booster. As long as they can argue there is consistency between those versions and not like Archie Sonic who is ridiculously OP compared to other Sonics.

This is a bit of a different situation, given the EU material has been explicitly de-canonized; comic book universes have not.

There's also the inherent issue of consistently pitting consistently written characters against "composites". It's tiresome.

[Anteros]

They had used composites before. Just last fight it was composite of multiple versions of Cable and Booster. As long as they can argue there is consistency between those versions and not like Archie Sonic who is ridiculously OP compared to other Sonics.



That's what I'm talking about, this thread has become salt for the sake of salt.

No, I still don't agree with you. There's lots of legitimate complaints. Even here, they're giving Obi-Wan a composite of all his powers, even the non-canon ones, and yet restricting Kakashi from double sharingan because...he didn't start with it? How does that make sense? By their own rules they're supposed to take characters at their peak. Even when I agree with their outcome, they still aren't consistent and still refuse to even follow their own rules.

[Man on Fire]

This is a bit of a different situation, given the EU material has been explicitly de-canonized; comic book universes have not.

Booster and Cable had elements taken from their cartoon appearances, Deadpool 2 and Smallville, which clearly are not canon in Marvel of DC Comics main verses.

[Rater202]

Booster and Cable had elements taken from their cartoon appearances, Deadpool 2 and Smallville, which clearly are not canon in Marvel of DC Comics main verses.

Yes, they are.

Both series run on multiverse theory where everything is canon, it just doesn't all fit in the same universe.

I don't agree with it, but it's a fair interpretation.

What's not fair is doing it for Obi-Wan using explicitly non-canon materials while restricting Kakashi to only powers he himself uses by himself in canon. The lack of Double Sharingan, in particular, is hypocritical considering that they calculated Shazam's strength based on an equally temporary state of being back in Captain Marvel vs Shazam.

This isn't salt for the sake of salt: This is predicting that someone would get robbed and then pointing out that we were right.

I don't want to be rude, but considering your behavior in this and other threads when certain topics come up I can't help but think that you might be projecting.

[Man on Fire]

Both series run on multiverse theory where everything is canon, it just doesn't all fit in the same universe.

That is not true and I say that as a comic book fan.

[Dragonus45]

This is a bit of a different situation, given the EU material has been explicitly de-canonized; comic book universes have not.

There's also the inherent issue of consistently pitting consistently written characters against "composites". It's tiresome.

Decanonized by who? Disney? ****em. They can own the right to make new stuff all they want but no one cares about their opinion when it comes to deciding what is what anymore, especially since what they have consistently turned out mirrors the worst of the Classic canon. That big argument people always make about peoples salt towards the Disney Canon is that the “Expanded Universe” didn’t go away, and that it’s media would always be there. So I say it’s just as valid as any other version events.

That is not true and I say that as a comic book fan.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. But when it comes to power differences it’s often fair to point at the different series of events from an esleworlds or parallel timeline to see what the limits of a characters power might be so long as they presentations are at least relatively consistent.

[Lemmy]

To me, the only problem with using the EU is that it has a bunch of feats that clearly make no sense, as Obi-Wan hasn't used anything even remotely close to them in scale even in his most challenging and crucial fight: the one against Anakin.

It's the old "take one-shot feat and treat them as things the character can do, rather than as exceptional circumstances and/or the writer making a mistake"... The same thing that ruins a bunch of other DBM matches.