Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[DarthArminius]

edit-nevermind.

[Traab]

My problem, as always, is they kept giving him feats on par with OTHER jedi. "Oh anakin could move a dreadnought? THEN SO CAN OBI! Oh this other legendary jedi could shift a black hole? SO CAN OBI!" And as far as the near light speed reaction times, i call blatant bs as for one thing, space battles are not done at melee range. Its like claiming you can dodge bullets because you can move out of the way of a sniper round fired from 2 miles away when you got warned it was coming. Thats not even counting how force precognition futzes around with reaction time. When you literally know the attack is incoming a second before it arrives, it doesnt matter how fast it is moving, you still have a second to dodge it.

Another nitpick, "Omg he manhandled grievouses armor!" No, he opened a freaking hatch that was already in his gear. If I pull open your button down shirt that doesnt mean im capable of tearing the fabric, it means im capable of pulling off the buttons. If I yank a door open even though its locked, that doesnt mean I can tear a 3 inch thick plank of wood apart, it means I can force the latch to give way. Obi wan didnt grab a solid panel of metal, jam his hand into it, then yank it apart. Its still impressive, but its not as great a deal as they made it sound.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

On a different note, I do like the 3D animation they used for this battle.

[Rynjin]

My problem, as always, is they kept giving him feats on par with OTHER jedi. "Oh anakin could move a dreadnought? THEN SO CAN OBI! Oh this other legendary jedi could shift a black hole? SO CAN OBI!" And as far as the near light speed reaction times, i call blatant bs as for one thing, space battles are not done at melee range. Its like claiming you can dodge bullets because you can move out of the way of a sniper round fired from 2 miles away when you got warned it was coming. Thats not even counting how force precognition futzes around with reaction time. When you literally know the attack is incoming a second before it arrives, it doesnt matter how fast it is moving, you still have a second to dodge it.

It's the transitive property BS that gets my goat every time, and doubly so when they apply it to one side of the fight and not the other. If they're just going off statements of what other people can do, Haku was stated to move at the speed of light in the first arc, and was caught by Naruto and tagged by Sasuke; we know Kakashi is many times faster than Naruto or Sasuke at that point, so Kakashi can move at many times the speed of light.

Is this ****ing stupid? Absolutely.

Is it at least consistent with how they apply things a lot of the time? Yes.

[Traab]

It's the transitive property BS that gets my goat every time, and doubly so when they apply it to one side of the fight and not the other. If they're just going off statements of what other people can do, Haku was stated to move at the speed of light in the first arc, and was caught by Naruto and tagged by Sasuke; we know Kakashi is many times faster than Naruto or Sasuke at that point, so Kakashi can move at many times the speed of light.

Is this ****ing stupid? Absolutely.

Is it at least consistent with how they apply things a lot of the time? Yes.

Thats actually a really good point. Transitive property sucks, but at least be fair about it. What they did for obi wan was similar to saying, "Since kakashi was hokage, that means he is on par with the previous hokage, meaning he can do everything they are capable of since, you know, all kage are the same, just like all jedi are the same. Hey, you know who else was hokage? NARUTO!" /breaks out the moon splitting feats again

[hungrycrow]

I was hoping they would at least find Obi-wan pulling some ridiculous feat off himself somewhere in the EU. But no, just ridiculous feats from other jedi.
Weird that he apparently has access to DBZ levels of speed and power, but never bothers to use them in any of the hundreds of life or death situations he gets into in the movies and tv shows.

[Forum Explorer]

My problem, as always, is they kept giving him feats on par with OTHER jedi. "Oh anakin could move a dreadnought? THEN SO CAN OBI! Oh this other legendary jedi could shift a black hole? SO CAN OBI!" And as far as the near light speed reaction times, i call blatant bs as for one thing, space battles are not done at melee range. Its like claiming you can dodge bullets because you can move out of the way of a sniper round fired from 2 miles away when you got warned it was coming. Thats not even counting how force precognition futzes around with reaction time. When you literally know the attack is incoming a second before it arrives, it doesnt matter how fast it is moving, you still have a second to dodge it.

Another nitpick, "Omg he manhandled grievouses armor!" No, he opened a freaking hatch that was already in his gear. If I pull open your button down shirt that doesnt mean im capable of tearing the fabric, it means im capable of pulling off the buttons. If I yank a door open even though its locked, that doesnt mean I can tear a 3 inch thick plank of wood apart, it means I can force the latch to give way. Obi wan didnt grab a solid panel of metal, jam his hand into it, then yank it apart. Its still impressive, but its not as great a deal as they made it sound.

Yeah, while I can see Obi-Wan beating Kakashi (and made that argument in thread earlier), the way Death Battle analyzed it was just bad. Way too much transitive properties when Jedi are explicitly not equal in how well they wield the Force. Even matching Anakin's force push doesn't mean that you are just as strong in telekinesis as he is.

Also they ignored the scaling of Kakashi, but more importantly, they ignored his abilities that are actually really strong against Obi-Wan, namely shadow clones, summoning, and using the kamui defensively.

EDIT: Oh, and their argument about Obi-Wan going 'all out' with the Force doesn't fly either. Their compunctions against killing are removed. They don't completely change their fighting style. The Jedi are all about acting in harmony with the Force to come to a preferable result. They aren't about using brute Force to force things to end up a certain way. And that's not being pacifistic or anything, they legitimately feel that is the superior way of fighting.

[TeChameleon]

I will point out that Obi-Wan explicitly bent Grievous' armour out of the way, not just opened a hatch, but beyond that... yeah, gorgeously animated fight, kind of questionable logic.

[Lemmy]

Sometimes the transitive property makes sense...

If a character is shown to be strong/fast/powerful enough to do something, and another character is *explicitly* stronger/faster/more powerful than the first one. Or if a character is shown to be strong enough to harm another character that was shown to be able to withstand a certain amount of damage.

e.g.: If Freeza can achieve a certain feat of raw strength/speed/endurance/power, then Super-Saiyan Goku can do that and more (and is clearly able to deal at least enough damage to overcome Freeza's toughness/endurance).

Sometimes it's completely stupid. When they go "well, these characters have similar powers, and are considered more or less equals, then everything this one can do, the other can do".

e.g.: Having one Green Lantern be able to do everything every GL has ever done. It's as stupid as if they gave Goku every technique in DBZ simply because they all use ki.

[Rater202]

I mean, technically Goku has demonstrated the ability to replicate techniques after seeing them once... The Kamehameha. The Eight Arms Punch. The Solar Flare.

If he wasn't taught the technique he flat out stole it. Sometimes he can even use them better: It Took Roshi 50 years to create the Kamehameha but only a few weeks for Goku to master it and during the three years he was training with Kami he broke it down, created a stronger version of it and dozens of side variations of that stronger version.

So yeah, you could arguably give Goku any technique he's seen.

[Lemmy]

I mean, technically Goku has demonstrated the ability to replicate techniques after seeing them once... The Kamehameha. The Eight Arms Punch. The Solar Flare.

If he wasn't taught the technique he flat out stole it. Sometimes he can even use them better: It Took Roshi 50 years to create the Kamehameha but only a few weeks for Goku to master it and during the three years he was training with Kami he broke it down, created a stronger version of it and dozens of side variations of that stronger version.

So yeah, you could arguably give Goku any technique he's seen.

Except, even Yamcha used kame-hame-ha pretty easily... Apparently Muten Roshi just wasn't very good at developing ki techniques when he created the kame-hame-ha.

[Rater202]

Yamcha recreated it after years of training in martial arts and ki use

Goku saw it once, decided it was cool, and did it then and there with no utilize. Goku didn't even know how to use Ki at the time, he was using pure martial arts and physical strength, but he figured it out by just seeing that the Kamehameha was a thing that existed.

(Similarly to Vegeta gaining the power to sense energy seemingly by just learning that people could do it.)

[Forum Explorer]

Yamcha recreated it after years of training in martial arts and ki use

Goku saw it once, decided it was cool, and did it then and there with no utilize. Goku didn't even know how to use Ki at the time, he was using pure martial arts and physical strength, but he figured it out by just seeing that the Kamehameha was a thing that existed.

(Similarly to Vegeta gaining the power to sense energy seemingly by just learning that people could do it.)

I feel like that's a Saiyan thing. Like they are naturally good at using Ki while humans have to actually be trained. I think I read somewhere that Saiyans weren't actually trained? They were just sent in, and expected to carry the day with natural instincts and abilities.

[Rater202]

I feel like that's a Saiyan thing. Like they are naturally good at using Ki while humans have to actually be trained. I think I read somewhere that Saiyans weren't actually trained? They were just sent in, and expected to carry the day with natural instincts and abilities.

They used to send Toddlers to planets with weak populations and frequent full moons and let the Ozaru do. However, training to get stronger instead of merely using the strength they already had was a novel concept to them.

It's also not a Saiyan thing: In canon Goku and Vegeta do it... But so does Tien.

Tien copying the Kamehameha and using it once just to prove a point was treated as being something incredibly impressive to showcase his skill at martial arts.

Buu also did it, just from seeing the Kamehameha once, which was treated as "No way" moment.

Being able to copy moves perfectly after seeing them once is less of a "Saiyan" thing and more of a "this guy is a natural born genius at martial arts and ki use or otherwise something special" thing.

[Lemmy]

A bunch of different characters simply suddenly perform techniques they have never been seen using or practcing before... Hell! Krillin just went "Well... If Yamcha can do it, then so can I!" and performed a kame-hame-ha. Using that to infer that characters can just see a technique once and steal it would be pretty absurd IMO.

Even Goku using the kame-hame-ha after seeing it once is more a consequence of DB's world straight up being subject to "Rule of Funny" (that's apparently an actual law of physics of their world, as seen by Arale beating Vegeta.

[HolyDraconus]

A bunch of different characters simply suddenly perform techniques they have never been seen using or practcing before... Hell! Krillin just went "Well... If Yamcha can do it, then so can I!" and performed a kame-hame-ha. Using that to infer that characters can just see a technique once and steal it would be pretty absurd IMO.

Even Goku using the kame-hame-ha after seeing it once is more a consequence of DB's world straight up being subject to "Rule of Funny" (that's apparently an actual law of physics of their world, as seen by Arale beating Vegeta.

Rule of funny only goes so far, as reference by the fact that everyone was certain that Beerus can erase Arale.

[Traab]

I will point out that Obi-Wan explicitly bent Grievous' armour out of the way, not just opened a hatch, but beyond that... yeah, gorgeously animated fight, kind of questionable logic.

But what I meant was more, he forced open panels of armor likely meant to open, so its more he forced it open along its hinges or however the plates are joined. Still quite the feat, dont get me wrong, just not the same as tearing apart solid metal like they suggested he was doing. I will admit I dont have proof the chest plate opens but it would make sense considering they had to transfer his vital organs in there some how.

[Lord Raziere]

Rule of funny only goes so far, as reference by the fact that everyone was certain that Beerus can erase Arale.

Well as Rater stated, its literally a coveted ability among fighters in Dragon Ball. its been around since OG Dragon Ball to show how good Goku is at this.

[Devonix]

Saiyans are not really all that strong in the grand scheme of things. Yamcha right now is stronger than any saiyan in the history of the race has ever been except for the Earth Saiyans.

And it was canon that Saiyans never even knew about raising power levels before Earth. Most of the galaxy saw them as competent but not very dangerous fighters.

[Rater202]

Yeah.

Vegeta and Nappa were elites, but even Raditz was considered strong by Saiyan Standards. And by the standards of Freiza's army: Sibamen are elite Mooks, stronger than the average soldier, that are entrusted to elites in Frieza's army. They are explicitly on average roughly Raditz equal.

The ones on Earth were said to be stronger than average, speculated to be because the earth's soil is higher quality than average.

Yamcha gets made fun of for getting exploded, but if you actually watch that fight what happened was that Yamcha casually beat the Saibaman to death and it used the last of its strength to take him out with a suicidal sucker punch while pretending to already be dead. Yamcha dominated that fight. If he'd double-tapped...

That pretty clearly establishes Yamcha as being stronger than the average Saiyan.

Most likely: Vegeta is as strong as he is becuase of generations of selective breeding by a species that values inherent strength and places the strong higher and higher in their hierarchy and Goku's just a freak of nature... Considering that Frieza, his father, and the strongest members of Frieza's army were all said to be mutants with unusually great power, it's possible that Goku is more of the same.

[Peelee]

Yeah.

Vegeta and Nappa were elites, but even Raditz was considered strong by Saiyan Standards. And by the standards of Freiza's army: Sibamen are elite Mooks, stronger than the average soldier, that are entrusted to elites in Frieza's army. They are explicitly on average roughly Raditz equal.

The ones on Earth were said to be stronger than average, speculated to be because the earth's soil is higher quality than average.

Yamcha gets made fun of for getting exploded, but if you actually watch that fight what happened was that Yamcha casually beat the Saibaman to death and it used the last of its strength to take him out with a suicidal sucker punch while pretending to already be dead. Yamcha dominated that fight. If he'd double-tapped...

That pretty clearly establishes Yamcha as being stronger than the average Saiyan.

Most likely: Vegeta is as strong as he is becuase of generations of selective breeding by a species that values inherent strength and places the strong higher and higher in their hierarchy and Goku's just a freak of nature... Considering that Frieza, his father, and the strongest members of Frieza's army were all said to be mutants with unusually great power, it's possible that Goku is more of the same.

Goku and Piccolo both were barely able to defeat Raditz, and both far outclassed Yamcha at the time. Yamcha had, in addition to his already intense lifetime training, additional training specifically to prepare for the Saiyans, who, as has been pointed out, we're naturally gifted and largely did not train to increase their powers and abilities. Those who did became massive powerhouses; Vegeta was an elite, but Kakarot was constantly called out as a low-level commoner.

[Devonix]

Goku and Piccolo both were barely able to defeat Raditz, and both far outclassed Yamcha at the time. Yamcha had, in addition to his already intense lifetime training, additional training specifically to prepare for the Saiyans, who, as has been pointed out, we're naturally gifted and largely did not train to increase their powers and abilities. Those who did became massive powerhouses; Vegeta was an elite, but Kakarot was constantly called out as a low-level commoner.

The point being made is that Saiyan Saga Yamcha was already far stronger than all but the highest of elite Saiyan warriors. And after training with King Kai was even stronger. If Yamcha after training with King Kai could go back to Planet Vegeta before it got blown up. He'd be able to beat anyone on the entire planet most likely.

[Peelee]

The point being made is that Saiyan Saga Yamcha was already far stronger than all but the highest of elite Saiyan warriors. And after training with King Kai was even stronger. If Yamcha after training with King Kai could go back to Planet Vegeta before it got blown up. He'd be able to beat anyone on the entire planet most likely.

In the beginning of the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha was significantly weaker than Goku and Piccolo, who could hardly handle Raditz. So we can estimate he was significantly weaker than Raditz. He then trained for a year with the specific goal of combating the other Saiyans, who he was still weaker than, despite those Saiyans not really ever training too hard.

I'm not disputing that Yamcha is way stronger than people give him credit for. He's probably the second strongest human ever (Krillin being the first). I'm just saying that the Saiyans were definitely that strong in the scheme of things, if they had ever bothered trying.

[Devonix]

In the beginning of the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha was significantly weaker than Goku and Piccolo, who could hardly handle Raditz. So we can estimate he was significantly weaker than Raditz. He then trained for a year with the specific goal of combating the other Saiyans, who he was still weaker than, despite those Saiyans not really ever training too hard.

I'm not disputing that Yamcha is way stronger than people give him credit for. He's probably the second strongest human ever (Krillin being the first). I'm just saying that the Saiyans were definitely that strong in the scheme of things, if they had ever bothered trying.

End of Saiyan Saga Yamcha was Far stronger than a Saibaman who was equivalent in power to Raditz.
Frieza saga Yamcha was stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta who was one of the strongest warriors Planet Vegeta ever produced at the time.

Saiyan Saga Yamcha > Radits
Frieza Saga Yamcha > Saiyan Saga Vegeta

And you can't really use " If they ever bothered training " as a measure of power for a race. By that measure Every human on the planet is a planet buster " If they ever bothered training "

Saiyan Saga Vegeta > most of Planet Vegeta
IE Frieza Saga Yamcha > Most of Planet Vegeta

[Man on Fire]

Sometimes it's completely stupid. When they go "well, these characters have similar powers, and are considered more or less equals, then everything this one can do, the other can do".

e.g.: Having one Green Lantern be able to do everything every GL has ever done. It's as stupid as if they gave Goku every technique in DBZ simply because they all use ki.

This is exactly how Green Lantern rings work,bthey're not tailor made but production line, cases of a GL being able to do something any other GL shouldn't be able to replicate with enough willpower are rare anommalies like Simon Baz's Emerald Sight.

[Devonix]

This is exactly how Green Lantern rings work,bthey're not tailor made but production line, cases of a GL being able to do something any other GL shouldn't be able to replicate with enough willpower are rare anommalies like Simon Baz's Emerald Sight.

Don't forget Kyle's ring pre Green lantern Rebirth It was more powerful than any other green lantern ring ever made.

But also while every Green Lantern Ring can do the same things, not every Green lantern can do the same thing. Because it's all about mental ability, willpower, creativity, knowledge ect.

Hell some Green lanterns can do more powerful things, while using less ring energy simply because they know how to do them better.

A good example being Guy Gardner. He kinda sucks at making constructs, he constantly uses more energy than nessessary to make what he does, with power fizzling and sparking all over the place.

[Peelee]

End of Saiyan Saga Yamcha was Far stronger than a Saibaman who was equivalent in power to Raditz.
Frieza saga Yamcha was stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta who was one of the strongest warriors Planet Vegeta ever produced at the time.

Saiyan Saga Yamcha > Radits
Frieza Saga Yamcha > Saiyan Saga Vegeta

And you can't really use " If they ever bothered training " as a measure of power for a race. By that measure Every human on the planet is a planet buster " If they ever bothered training "

Saiyan Saga Vegeta > most of Planet Vegeta
IE Frieza Saga Yamcha > Most of Planet Vegeta

Your contention was that Saiyans were not really a powerful race. The abilities Saiyans could reach far outpaces the abilities other races, including humans, can reach. That Yamcha, at some arbitrary point In time, was stronger than a given Saiyan at an arbitrary point in time is irrelevant, except that Yamcha had to strive far more to achieve that level than that Saiyan ever did. Which just further demonstrates that the Saiyans are even starting out in a whole 'nother level to begin with.

Like, I'm pretty sure that if I trained hard enough, I could run faster than Usain Bolt did when he was 10. But then he could train, and end up being far faster than I could ever be. The fact that I am faster than he was way back when doesn't matter.

[Man on Fire]

Don't forget Kyle's ring pre Green lantern Rebirth It was more powerful than any other green lantern ring ever made.

But also while every Green Lantern Ring can do the same things, not every Green lantern can do the same thing. Because it's all about mental ability, willpower, creativity, knowledge ect.

Hell some Green lanterns can do more powerful things, while using less ring energy simply because they know how to do them better.

A good example being Guy Gardner. He kinda sucks at making constructs, he constantly uses more energy than nessessary to make what he does, with power fizzling and sparking all over the place.

A lot of that becomes meaningless in wake of the fact DC spent last two decades trying to shove down people's throats Hal Jordan is better than every single other Green Lantern and Kyle in particular.

And the thing is that how an individual GL may accomplish a task vary depending on things you listed, it does not change the fact said task is sitll within a ring's capabilities. Sinestro Corps Special established Green Lantern ring lets you shoot someone in a different space sector (or even several sectors away depending how far Space Sector 3 is from Space Sector 0). It means any ring can do it. John Stewart will do it by making a replica of a sniper rifle but Kyle could probably do it with a replica of a gundam and Hal with replica of a baseball ball.

[Lemmy]

This is exactly how Green Lantern rings work,bthey're not tailor made but production line, cases of a GL being able to do something any other GL shouldn't be able to replicate with enough willpower are rare anommalies like Simon Baz's Emerald Sight.

The rings all have the potential to do the same thing, in the same way that everyone in DBZ has the potential to use any ki technique... But it's pretty clear that what any given GL can do is influenced by their individual personality, creativity, way of thinking, and willpower, possibly among other factors. GLs aren't automatically able to replicate any and every feat another GL has been able to perform.

In the same way that just because I have fists, it doesn't mean I'm as good at boxing as Mike Tyson or Mohammed Ali.

[Traab]

Your contention was that Saiyans were not really a powerful race. The abilities Saiyans could reach far outpaces the abilities other races, including humans, can reach. That Yamcha, at some arbitrary point In time, was stronger than a given Saiyan at an arbitrary point in time is irrelevant, except that Yamcha had to strive far more to achieve that level than that Saiyan ever did. Which just further demonstrates that the Saiyans are even starting out in a whole 'nother level to begin with.

Like, I'm pretty sure that if I trained hard enough, I could run faster than Usain Bolt did when he was 10. But then he could train, and end up being far faster than I could ever be. The fact that I am faster than he was way back when doesn't matter.

Yeah but the point he was making is, these saiyans DIDNT TRAIN. The argument has nothing to do with potential power, it has to do with where the race was as a people and where krillin is now and the vast gap between them. Krillin is stronger than the majority of the saiyan race was before it got blown up. Yes its because they didnt train, yes they had the potential to go far beyond him, but it was a potential they never realized as a people. Its like saying nobody could go to krypton and beat the tar out of the people there because they could travel to a yellow sun system, live there for thirty years, and become supermen. Yeah they COULD but they DIDNT, and so they werent godlike beings at the time the world blew up. Super saiyan was a myth at the start of the series iirc. A legendary skill barely thought to actually exist. The idea of going beyond that was so absurd it was never even thought of until it happened.