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2019-07-10, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.
Now I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about Naruto, so for all I know, you could be correct, but you aren't actually supporting your assertion at all. Forget the souls, forget the possession, its all irrelevant. If that was the only thing working here, Toph would win, period, end of story, do not collect $200. Demonstrate to me that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-07-10, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Exactly, If we're talking about how Gaara has controled a larger amount of material than Toph had controlled, that's one thing to actually use as valid. It The sand having extra stuff in it wouldn't make it any less usable in bending.
I agree that Gaara has more raw power, And any tug of war should be one by Gaara. I don't think anyone's disputing this. But if other stuff being in an element affected your ability to use said element. Then Blood bending Most Earth bending wouldn't work. because of impurities.
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2019-07-10, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
[QUOTE=Keltest;24022869]Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.[quote]
No, you're missing the point.
1:Toph controls earth and earthen impurities in metal.
Gaara's personal supply of sand is earth, blood, his chakra(which is to say, is life force and spiritual energy), and his mom's ghost. Considering the number of people he's killed and "fed" their blood to the sand, Gaara's personal supply of sand is arguably more blood than anything else.
Toph's ability to control it should innately be limited since she can only control part of what its made of.
2: The sand is not inert soil. It's not like it's a battle of will between two people over the same unrelated rock. The blood and chakra treatments on the sand are meant to make it easier for Gaara to control and less energy intesive. It is, for all intents and purposes, part of Gaara's body. An extension of his soul.
Toph is an outside party trying to seize control of what is basically an extension of Gaara's own self while Gaara himself is activly using it. In a battle of wills over an extension of one party's will, the party who actually owns the extension ofg will should automatically win.
3: In addition to being an extension of Gaara's will, the sand has a will of it's own due to being possessed by his mother's ghost and instilled with her desire to protect him no matter what.
Now, we don't know if Toph can bend living earth, I don't think living Earth is a thing in Avatar, but at the very least Gaara's sand would be actively resisting her control and moving against her to try and avoid bringing Harm to Gaara.
4: Bringing it together: Toph has an innate disadvantage when controlling Gaara's personal supply of sand, as it's mostly things that aren't earth. Gaara, meanwhile, has an innate advantage as the sand is treated in such a way as to make it an extension of his will and body. In a battle of wills, it's a three way fight between Toph, Gaara, and the ghost whose only goal is to protect Gaara so Toph would be fighting on two fronts to get control og the sand.
Toph could only win that battle of wills if her own raw power dwarfed Gaara's, and it uh... Doesn't.
Now I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about Naruto, so for all I know, you could be correct, but you aren't actually supporting your assertion at all. Forget the souls, forget the possession, its all irrelevant. If that was the only thing working here, Toph would win, period, end of story, do not collect $200. Demonstrate to me that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's.
Other people have made the argument for me, pointing out that Naruto simply operates on a higher scale than Avatar does.
If I absolutely have to give examples though:
In the Sasuke Retrial Arc, Gaara floods a
From Early on in part II, he creates a wave of sand the size of a decently sized city. This is not his personal supply of sand. It's just sand that was kind of laying around.
He is exponentially stronger by the end of the series, to the point that his father(reanimated as an immortal zombie by a villain) assumes that the sand control he's seeing is Shukaku unrestrained. This is after Shukaku is extracted, meaning that it's all Gaara. Gaara's father has fought Shukaku several times, so he knows exactly what he's talking about.
Gaara's father uses Magnet Releases to use strong electromagnetic fields to magnetize gold dust, becuase gold dust has properties that make it superior to sand for the kind of techniques that Gaara and Shukaku use(Gaara used to be a little psycho, needed a way to keep him in line.)
Gaara is easily able to match and overpower his father's techniques which are specifically designed to overpower Gaara's own by the time they formally fight onscreen.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2019-07-10, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Point 1: this actually supports me, not you. Toph has demonstrated an ability to control an entire object even though the object is not made entirely of her bending material. To that end, the fact that it isn't pure sand is irrelevant. At best, it would split into its component elements, with Gaara controlling a cloud of dried blood particles while Toph controls the sand.
Point 2: Just because you think that doesn't mean its true. Bending overrides personal control, period. It just does. Being a part of somebody does not protect you from bending, hence the bloodbending example.
Point 3: Same deal. Being a part of a "living" or at least intelligent entity does not protect you from bending. You can apply your own force against it, but that doesn't affect the ability of the bender to affect you, it would just damage your body from the strain. This is maybe less important to something that doesn't actually need a solid body to exist, but it isn't a point in his favor at all either.
And thus, to point 4: This is, again, just you declaring Toph to be at a disadvantage here, in spite of explicit evidence that it doesn't work that way. Toph controls the sand and Gaara has nothing that actually limits her ability to control that sand. All he can do is try and exercise his own control over it, so it comes back down to "is he stronger at controlling sand than Toph?" Which is the whole freaking point. Maybe he is. I don't even care at this point, the fight is long done. But you aren't arguing from a position of strength here because you keep insisting that specific canon powers just don't apply for some reason.
The point is, if we remove Gaara's own personal ability to control sand from the equation, Toph doesn't even notice a difference. Therefore Gaara needs to match her with his own raw power, and all the fancy external boosts to his personal sand supply don't matter because TLA went out of their way to demonstrate that bending is unaffected by those kinds of things. Its like protesting that Aang couldnt bend air that was moving through a fan first.Last edited by Keltest; 2019-07-10 at 10:16 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-07-10, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Bending does not over ride personal control. At best it over rides other benders control and even then you have to be better at it. Toph has nothing that says she can take control of his sand while he is using it. They just unilaterally declared that her school of magic is more powerful than his backed by nothing. This is a solid battle of shippuden era garra showing off his strength. This is not where he was at his peak but he is still fighting a long range battle protecting an entire city from a guy dropping everything from grenades to pocket nukes all over the place while controlling enough sand to attack this guy from lord knows what distance but an easy estimate being within a mile or two of his location. Thats an absurd amount of power and control. He is manipulating entire beaches worth of sand multiple times over for attacking on multiple angles, deflecting attacks against himself, protecting the city from bombs. Even half conscious injured and exhausted he was still able to move a city crushing mountain of sand outside city limits before collapsing. When did toph do stuff on this level?
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
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2019-07-10, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
This is a logical way of explaining how bending works based on the evidence you give. It simply overrides anyone's will, as in blood bending. Problem is we have seen Bloodbending get overridden (scroll to the bottom of the wiki). In addition to other water benders being able to do so, the Avatar in Avatar state can defeat it, and Gaara is shown manipulating sand on a scale only the Avatar could.
Its simply not true that bending always and in all cases overrides whatever other forces are at work upon the object. Its just usually the case, probably because bending is more powerful than most of the other stuff in the Avatar-verse.
The nature of death battle requires that characters with powers that are unique to their own universe will interact seamlessly with another character's powers from a totally different universe. We usually don't see struggling over the same material, but when you see it, its generally one with more power that wins.
Its not like there's nothing to hang on that bending can defeat other forces on the objects, the problem is the evidence is not completely one-sided because there are examples of bending being defeated by other bending or overwhelming strength.
The thing is, all this fighting over bending should be irrelevant because Gaara should simply be at a totally different level of strength, speed, durability and skill to Toph. It's like if Bruce Lee fought the Hulk. It's like having a high school basketball team play against an NBA champion team. For a unique trick to overcome that difference it has to be something really special, and Gaara has his own tricks are all on different scale.
Upon seeing how late in Naruto they actually had access to, I can't find any reason anymore why Gaara should lose. Every scenario where Toph can eek out a victory requires minimizing or making irrelevant Gaara's own much more formidable abilities.
Sure, you can come up with reasons why Toph has an auto-win button, but you can do the same for Gaara. Gaara should be able to win with a basic attack delivered at speed Toph can't deal with (if the speed of sound operates like in our universe, she shouldn't even see it coming). Deathbattle is premised on the idea that you can smash two characters from different universe together in a confrontation, and the cast and crew expend a lot of energy saying they are honestly being fair in how they analyze the two and determine the victor. There's no proof bending simply overrides Gaara's ability to control his sand, there's certainly no evidence Toph is faster than Gaara, and everything about the two universes and the relative feats we see show that Gaara is far stronger and more durable.
Its quite clear they sell Gaara short in their analysis. The result is simply wrong.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2019-07-10, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
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2019-07-10, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
It's tough to say what exactly doesn't appeal to me about Naruto's fights. Well, stuff that isn't the flashbacks. That one is obvious. But even with those removed, I often find them boring and silly. It's not just power level (though I do typically enjoy lower powered fights), I've really enjoyed Terra Toppa Gurren Lagen and Kill La Kill before, and their fights are literally ridiculous. It might be length, I'm not sure what the longest fight scene I've seen is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it belonged to Naruto. It might be characters, Naruto is good enough, but I despise Sasuke because he is just awful.
Or maybe it's just the fact that even removed, the flashbacks make the fights choppy in places where they used to be.
Actually, is that true? Toph has shattered cliffs before and apparently has a range across an entire city. I mean, Toph certainly strikes with less of force, but that's because you usually don't see her kill, she tends to just trap and immobilize. But she does do big things that makes in unclear who actually has more raw power.
As for adding blood making it harder for Toph to bend, well that's not true. Wet mud is just as easy to bend as dirt is. A controlling spirit? Eh, maybe? Spirits are a thing in Avatar, but I don't know if Toph ever interacted with one. Does anyone know? We might actually have an easy answer to this question.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2019-07-10, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Gaara has lifted sand enough to crush city blocks, created massive sand tsunamis that can dwarf cliffs dozens of meters high, and held a mountain-sized meteor aloft with his sand, and as mentioned previously projected his sand fast enough to block attacks from with the fastest characters in his universe of super-humanly fast individuals.
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2019-07-10, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
I don't like Naruto fights either. They're way too drawn out, and the constant flash backs are obnoxious. It worked fine for one or two dramatic moments, but they overuse it to the point of ridiculousness.
Actually, is that true? Toph has shattered cliffs before and apparently has a range across an entire city. I mean, Toph certainly strikes with less of force, but that's because you usually don't see her kill, she tends to just trap and immobilize. But she does do big things that makes in unclear who actually has more raw power.
As for adding blood making it harder for Toph to bend, well that's not true. Wet mud is just as easy to bend as dirt is. A controlling spirit? Eh, maybe? Spirits are a thing in Avatar, but I don't know if Toph ever interacted with one. Does anyone know? We might actually have an easy answer to this question.
It takes such a willful amount of disregard for the source materials to argue that Toph has anywhere near Gaara's amount of power that I don't see how there's any point in talking about it any more. The people who are going to argue in Toph's favor here are already ignoring literal mountains of evidence. Pointing out more evidence for them to ignore is just a waste of everyone's time.Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-10 at 01:56 PM.
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2019-07-10, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
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2019-07-10, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Which happens to be exactly Toph's preferred style. She is a pressure point fighter, capable of beating physically vastly superior opponents through very precise application of power and better techniqe. Buuuut, yeah. I like the comparison to Bruce Lee vs. the Hulk. At some point it just does not matter how good of a fighter you are, or how clumsy the Hulk is. And Gaara is by no means a bad or clumsy fighter.
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2019-07-10, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
How some fights are initially picked? As in which characters get paired with whom? That sort of protest is usually reserved for people crying only that their favorite character lost: “The fight was unfair, they choose someone who was way out of my guys league.”
Also bias means many things. Bias can be unconscious or prejudicial things, like maybe the team really like certain shows or characters and want them to win.
However, if I get your drift, it sounds like is you are saying is “the way they pair people in fights is so unfair, they must WANT certain guys to lose or win.”
Let’s assume for the moment they do pick soft opponents specifically so that particular characters will win...obviously that’s a powerful argument that the winner is, in fact, the stronger character.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2019-07-10, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Fights tend to be picked from similar combatants. Sword using rpg protags so cloud and link, speedsters, so flash and quicksilver, demon sword fighting people, guts and nightmare. They try to get them in the same ballpark as well, its generally rare that the winner is obvious from the start, but it often becomes so when they break out the tale of the tape and you learn that so and so survived a black hole back in the 50s in one of his spinoff series while his opponent had a tree land on him once. The bias tends to come in when they make the judgement calls like this one, but often its clear they only make that call to try to even out the fight where its less judgement call and more "How can I boost this guy far enough to make it a fight in a way thats semi justified". Like iirc ichigo was given every boost possible combined to multiply his power levels enough that he could approach naruto and his moon buster attack surviving blah de bloo. Or as another example, link gets pretty much every awesome item in his arsenal spread across several games while cloud gets his starter gear. Its probable that with nothing but his master sword, shield, and maybe some bombs, link would have been sashimi in short order.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2019-07-10, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
What you are calling “bias” looks more like they are just trying to make a fight’s outcome appear fair. They gave Ichigo every possible break explicitly in order to show its still not enough against Naruto.
You seem to be conflating the term “bias” with the term “judgment.” You can’t do any sort of superhero battle or make claims about who would win a fight without making a whole lot of judgment calls.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2019-07-10, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
When does Gaara catch a meteorite? Or the sand monster thing, since presumably you aren't talking about him using his demon form, since he actually got a fair bit more powerful after he lost it.
Toph has no trouble with water infused mud, so I doubt blood infused sand would be all that difficult for her.
I like this conversation because apparently there is a ton of stuff I missed in that final fight scene that I didn't see since I stopped early. Ditto with Toph, except I never watched that much of Avatar. Truly though, I don't actually care about this fight, and digging up more information about Naruto is painful due to those fight scenes.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2019-07-10, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-11, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
The sand monster I was referring to was his demon form. If you want to argue he was even more powerful without it, that's even more reason he should have stomped.
Which is just another example of lazy research on their part. They calculated Naruto's durability based on an opponent of his who cut the moon in half. Nevermind the fact that they can't possibly know how big the moon is in Naruto and just went with the size of ours, and nevermind the fact that he never hits Naruto with that attack...the moon in Naruto's world is hollow so the whole assumption is flawed anyway.Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-11 at 01:11 AM.
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2019-07-11, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
In the fight against madera, naruto and crew actually start doing good against him when he is messing around. Then he goes full rinnegan (you NEVER go full rinnegan) and summons a meteor large enough to wipe out the entire army. The iwakage flies up to it and tries to halt it by using a stone lightening jutsu several times, garra summons up this absolutely massive pillar of sand to engulf it and together they halt it in place. Of course then the second meteor full rinnegan (this is why you dont go that far) madera summons slams into the first and wipes out large portions of the army. Its kinda hard to attribute the feat to garra as it was a two man effort and we have no idea how much that spherical mountain weighed by the time garra was able to hold it up, but its still an impressive feat. Here you go.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2019-07-11, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
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2019-07-11, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
The moon in Naruto is man-made.
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2019-07-11, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
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2019-07-11, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Anteros’ Response:
Were you ignoring the part at the end where I said “you need to make a whole lot of judgment calls” or do you want to say making judgment calls equate to lazy research?
They decide to scale up Ichigo only to show that Naruto is still vastly superior based on his ability to tank his opponents attacks that...have been shown to split the moon in half.
Sure you can say the moon in Naruto doesn’t resemble our moon at all (of course then the world wouldn’t have tides or temperature control but whatever).
The problem is: What’s the alternative? You can ignore the moon destroying feat and probably sell Naruto short and then measure Ichigo’s power much more modestly...and the outcome might not change. However you calculate these characters abilities, its all guess work using proxies anyway. They don’t have the characters in a lab. What we have is a collection of their feats, some of which look pretty impressive.
If you are going to make physics calculations with those feats though, you are going to have to make lots of assumptions. If you want to make your calculations based on a hollow moon, you would have to figure out how to hollow out the moon, and how that would make sense (it doesn’t, a hollowed out moon by operation of gravity should collapse and become a solid moon).
If instead, you don’t use the moon example at all as flawed, and you don’t use any example that appears “flawed” you may end up with a character without very many feats, because literally nothing these characters do with superpowers makes sense from the standpoint of real world physics.
It’s literally impossible to do these superhero battles without a lot of guesswork, rules of thumb, and the suspect comparison to how things work in our world with our physics. If you are going to insist on perfect physical accuracy in analyzing these superpowers...You will simply have a way to complain about every call they’ve ever made in every battle that has ever been fought.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2019-07-11, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
IT doesn't.
that's kind of the point.
The Moon in Naruto ins't a moon and doesn't behave anything like a real moon.
It's a man-made construct that Ninja-Jesus made to lock up the corpse of the monster that was born when his mom fused with a tree.
Treating it like a real moon in any capacity is silly.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2019-07-11, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Is destroying the moon as a demonstration of power just a thing in Anime? What do the Japanese have against the moon? Is this secretly a message of intent?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-07-11, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
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2019-07-11, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
You do have to make assumptions at some points. You don't have to make assumptions that are literally contradicted by the source material like "it would take this much force to destroy the moon" when the moon in question is explicitly completely different. Especially when that one feat is so entirely out of line with everything else we've seen of the character's durability. You're saying that they "scaled Ichigo up" to give him a chance. All that means is that they inaccurately depicted both characters.
When Roshi blows up the moon in Dragonball I'm willing to handwave it as being comparable to ours. In Naruto they literally tell you it's an entirely different thing.
Look, I didn't make the stupid setting. If I had, it would probably be more internally consistent but waaay less popular and you'd have never heard of it.Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-11 at 12:48 PM.
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2019-07-11, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2019-07-11, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
It's simple, really...
Rocks are the easiest thing to break in fiction. Any half-decent fighter in any media that includes even the smallest of super-powers can break concrete like it's styrofoam.
And the Moon is just a big rock.Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
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2019-07-11, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater
Rocks, concrete, bricks, big machinery, basically anything inanimate. Of course, other than breaking things, pushing things, occasionally lifting things or even disintegrating things, we got no way to measure the strength of these characters.
You can make an argument that these characters’ attributes are actually immeasurable or that any method you use to measure them is fundamentally flawed, but then there’s really no point to either Deathbattle or discussing these fights at all.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar