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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Missing the point, here. They changed it. If they changed it before, they might change it again.
    They changed something way back when they were properly defining the color pie isn't the same as them just blatantly changing it now.

    The same way you can make Oko, Thief of Crowns have a passive Hexproof from White and claim that's Oko is broken. Yeah, it's broken, but not because it has Hexproof from ...
    But giving hexproof from is a massive part of why Veil of Summer was broken. It wouldn't even be good without it.

    Literally, everything else about it is broken.
    Everything about it is broken, together. Remove any of the parts and it's too narrow of a hate card to be much good. It needs both hexproof, uncountable and the

    Also I was talking about permanents. Hexproof is better on non-permanents since it acts as a counter for spells/abilities.
    Usually you spend a card on it. Veil of Summer is good because you don't spend a card on giving hexproof, so it leaves you a card up in the trade.
    Trading one of your give hexproof cards for one of the opponent's removal spells isn't massively better than the opponent holding on to the removal spell because he can't target your hexproof creature.

    Neither Fiendslayer nor any of "Hexproof from" permanents were broken
    No one said they were broken. Most flying creatures aren't broken, but the flying is still relevant.

    because it's 99% the same as does nothing. It's not a reactive ability like on Veil of Summer, and it's not a mass hexproof like Veil of Summer.
    That's just objectively wrong. Fiendslayer Paladin saw play specifically because of his ability.

    You are right in the sense, that mass Hexproof is a problem. But a

    Veil of Summer 1R
    Instant
    You and permanents you control have hexproof from blue and black.

    Would probably not see ban.
    How is this in any way an argument? I never said everything that gave hexproof from was broken, I said it added to it being broken.
    If True-Name Nemesis didn't have protection from chosen player then it wouldn't even be good, it is absolutely broken because it has protection from chosen player, but a card like:

    Bad-Name Nemesis - 6UUU
    Creature - Fish - M
    As Bad-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.
    Bad-Name Nemesis has protection from the chosen player.
    1/1

    Would obviously suck.
    Giving hexproof from is 100% one of the reasons Veil of Summer was a too powerful card.

    But you add a draw a card and your spells are uncounterable, and it will be a problem. I think the draw a card is the biggest offender tbh.
    How can you think that when:

    Veil of Summer 1R
    Instant
    If an opponent has cast a blue or black spell this turn, draw a card.

    Would be a very bad card?

    Can you see how your argument doesn't at all hold up?

    If Veil of Summer drew a card without doing anything else it would be incredibly bad. Cantrips aren't good because they replace themselves, they are good because they do something relevant while replacing themselves.

    It's not much of a point. Lots of cards see Modern/Legacy play.
    Not lots of bad cards that don't do anything.

    And on further scan it was played in 0 Modern and 1 Death and Taxes (Legacy) deck according to MtgTop8.
    I'm not sure if you just don't know how to operate the search function, but checking both mainboard and sideboard there are 5 decks in modern, and 15 in legacy. Both of these are formats where Knight of Meadowgrain is legal, meaning the decks have chosen to pay 1 mana for the "hexproof". They wouldn't do that if it didn't matter 99% of the time.

    But colors that don't get Wither, get Wither. Yeah, that makes no sense. Also all colors can pay life.
    They get wither when it's the set mechanic, they don't get wither the rest of the time. If your set mechanic requires paying life then all the colors can get it, but I couldn't find a recent green or blue card that required you to pay life.

    You dropped these.
    We've been over this before, don't state cards this old as examples of the colorpie, Sylvan Library i absolutely not a green card by todays color pie.

    Also an entire set.
    We've also been over this before, don't use Scars block as an example of black mechanics being allowed in other colors, as black bleed into all the other colors that block.

    Don't toot your own horn too hard. You're not that good.
    There you have it, someone else said it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Your Corruption mechanic would be relevantly different from generic damage/lifeloss in a far smaller percentage of games.

    I've been thinking something along the line of:
    Sneaky - Can only be blocked by creatures with vigilance.
    Arbitrarily assigning more meaning to vigilance would be very bad design. It's also bad because unlike flying/reach, not every color gets it, meaning against decks that weren't white or green it's just straight up unblockable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    For a U/R combat mechanic, the issue is that both colours already have evasion (Flying for U, Menace for R), so overlap there isn't super impressive. I'd lean towards trying to go for something that actually lets a creature win a fight, instead.
    I like this take a lot.


    Adaptable
    Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, you may have it get +1/-1 or -1/+1 until end of turn.

    You could have it be 'blocks or becomes blocked' instead, which makes it a bit worse as a clock but harder to effectively block.
    I like the design, I think it could definitely work as a mechanic, but I think as an evergreen it runs into some of the same problems as prowess, though not all.
    It's triggered, which makes it more complicated than the other evergreen keywords, though not nearly as much as prowess. It stacks, which none of the other keywords do.
    It also doesn't seem to scale as well as the other keywords. It's not going to matter that much on a 6/6.

    There's also the problem of -power +toughness not being something red can usually do.
    The name also needs to be something that feels more red.


    You could have it be 'blocks or becomes blocked' instead, which makes it a bit worse as a clock but harder to effectively block.
    Then it would trigger twice when you were double blocked, right? It think that would be confusing.

    I think it has some of the same problems, but what about:
    Shifty (Switch this creature's power and toughness when it has attacked this turn)
    It's not a trigger, but it lasts until end of turn to prevent weird stuff where you change back after combat and die. It also doesn't switch multiple times if you have multiple combat phases.

    I also saw someone suggest a flagbearer like mechanic, as both red and blue have redirection effects. It might very well be too complicated though, and could end up a rules nightmare.

    More ideas:

    Can't be blocked if you've cast an instant or sorcery spell this turn. - I see a lot of issues with this one.
    When this creature enters the battlefield, draw a card, then discard a card. - Trigger. Power varies a lot with the set.
    Canít be blocked except by creatures with defender. - Defenders suck and are too few. Evasion isn't needed in the colors.
    When this creature becomes target of a spell (an opponent controls), return it to your hand. - Complicated/weird. Bad hexproof.


    I really like the idea of power toughness switching or +/-, as it's one of the few ways blue gets combat relevant abilities, and it is also in red. Unfortunately they might just be too complicated for a variety of reasons.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-12-19 at 07:35 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    All of these effects make answering a card a bit more difficult, but don't make a card completely unanswerable.
    Yes, but out of those effect (barring protection since it's all those rolled into one), not being damaged by X is probably the strongest and hexproof from is bottom tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    If it meaningfully changed the game state, I think that's a good bar for relevancy.
    Yeah, but "Hexproof from" on a creature is bottom tier. Sure it changes game state against stuff that targets. But number cards that don't need to target are bigger (see any creature).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    First Strike does stop working
    No. First strike, doesn't stop working. You trade life for creature. It's still forcing a trade. Yeah, life is cheap resource, but not when you're low on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Saying that Hexproof from Black is irrelevant because I can just play red removal instead, is like saying that First Strike is irrelevant because I can play a creatureless deck, or Uncounterable is irrelevant because most decks don't play counters.
    "Hexproof from X" is irrelevant because 2/2 bear with hexproof dies to a 2/2 bear. Hexproof prevents a tiny percent of cards, compared to cards it doesn't deal with.

    EDIT: Got Ninjad by Ninjaman. It's almost poetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    They changed something way back when they were properly defining the color pie isn't the same as them just blatantly changing it now.
    They didn't change it just once either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But giving hexproof from is a massive part of why Veil of Summer was broken. It wouldn't even be good without it.
    Yes, I said mass hexproof AND reactive hexproof is a problem. Which part of that wasn't clear?

    Reactive Hexproof >> Proactive Hexproof. One is you can't target this. The other is a counterspell for spells/abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Everything about it is broken, together. Remove any of the parts and it's too narrow of a hate card to be much good. It needs both hexproof, uncountable and the

    Veil of Summer 1R
    Instant
    If an opponent has cast a blue or black spell this turn, draw a card.

    Would it be a very bad card?
    A do nothing, draw a card is not that impressive. Card drawing is a resource, that's super valuable, but not on it's own.

    Add some effect and a card draw, and the story becomes much different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not sure if you just don't know how to operate the search function, but checking both mainboard and sideboard there are 5 decks in modern, and 15 in legacy. Both of these are formats where Knight of Meadowgrain is legal, meaning the decks have chosen to pay 1 mana for the "hexproof". They wouldn't do that if it didn't matter 99% of the time.

    That's just objectively wrong. Fiendslayer Paladin saw play specifically because of his ability.
    No, I just discount regular and competitive. Even on everything barring regular you get 2 and 5 for it respectively. So yeah, it sees some play in modern/legacy.

    Plus, Fiendslayer has Lifelink and First strike. That makes him way more powerful than the hexproof part does. Hexproof is a nice addon, but not vital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    We've been over this before, don't state cards this old as examples of the colorpie, Sylvan Library i absolutely not a green card by todays color pie.
    Hey it's about as legal as the red card you posted, so it's a fair deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    We've also been over this before, don't use Scars block as an example of black mechanics being allowed in other colors, as black bleed into all the other colors that block.
    This is funny coming from a guy who takes two Scars block card as example of green having "counter prevention".

    But no, point is still valid, as you said, set mechanic can go into other colors within a set.
    Last edited by -D-; 2019-12-19 at 01:19 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yeah, but "Hexproof from" on a creature is bottom tier. Sure it changes game state against stuff that targets. But number cards that don't need to target are bigger (see any creature).
    I'll mention Fiendslayer Paladin again. It is mostly played against mono red decks. Those decks rarely play creatures with more than 2 power, so having first strike it can hit or block everything anyways, and not dying to their burn spells is huge. If it had said "Fiendslayer Paladin can't be blocked by red or black creatures" it would have been so much worse.

    "Hexproof from X" is irrelevant because 2/2 bear with hexproof dies to a 2/2 bear. Hexproof prevents a tiny percent of cards, compared to cards it doesn't deal with.
    Hexproof is one of the most powerful of the evergreen keywords, if not the most powerful.
    Hexproof is powerful enough that 1/1s with it see play.
    Yes hexproof from [color] is a lot worse than that, but it's very far from not mattering 99% of the time.

    They didn't change it just once either.
    This still isn't an argument.
    They can't just go "Screw it, divination in white" just because in the past they've went "actually maybe red should also have access to loot".

    Yes, I said mass hexproof AND reactive hexproof is a problem. Which part of that wasn't clear?
    The part where you tried to argue hexproof wasn't part of what made the card busted. The part where you made a more expensive version of the card that only had the hexproof part in an attempt to make this point.

    Reactive Hexproof >> Proactive Hexproof. One is you can't target this. The other is a counterspell for spells/abilities.
    Reactive requires you to hold up mana and in most other cases only trades even.

    Good reactive hexproof cards:
    Heroic Intervention, Dive Down, Blossoming Defense, Vines of Vastwood, Lazotep Plating, Rattlechains

    Good proactive hexproof cards:
    Drogskol Captain, Fleecemane Lion, Geist of Saint Traft, Gladecover Scout, Gruul Spellbreaker, Invisible Stalker, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, Silhana Ledgewalker, Slippery Bogle, Thrun, the Last Troll, Sylvan Caryatid, Vine Mare

    A do nothing, draw a card is not that impressive. Card drawing is a resource, that's super valuable, but not on it's own.

    Add some effect and a card draw, and the story becomes much different.
    Exactly. And for the same reason a give hexproof do nothing else isn't impressive, as evident by the fact that all the good cards that do it all do something else beside it.
    Of course my comparison was unfair, given that the whole purpose of it was to show that your comparison was unfair.

    No, I just discount regular and competitive. Even on everything barring regular you get 2 and 5 for it respectively. So yeah, it sees some play in modern/legacy.
    It also has five shows in competitive and up in pioneer.

    Plus, Fiendslayer has Lifelink and First strike. That makes him way more powerful than the hexproof part does. Hexproof is a nice addon, but not vital.
    You completely ignored my mention of Knight of Meadowgrain which is also legal in modern and legacy and has 0 showings competitive and up in modern, and 1 showing in competitive and up legacy, from 2011.
    You are paying 1 mana for the "hexproof". The fact that Fiendslayer Paladin is that much more successful in these formats than Knight of Meadowgrain proves that the hexproof is exactly part of what makes it usable.
    Yes the other two keywords are huge as well, but like with Veil of Summer this is a case of all three parts being needed for the card to be good, of course with a much weaker end result in this case.

    Hey it's about as legal as the red card you posted, so it's a fair deal.
    It's not about legality, it's about color pie. Sets printed for supplementary sets don't need to follow the same rules for power level as standard sets, but they do need to follow the color pie.

    This is funny coming from a guy who takes two Scars block card as example of green having "counter prevention".
    I can't tell if you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying. This was my comment:
    We've also been over this before, don't use Scars block as an example of black mechanics being allowed in other colors, as black bleed into all the other colors that block.
    Scars block had bleed of black mechanics into other colors, it did not bleed all colors like Time Spiral did.
    I have also said multiple times that counter prevention might not be in green anymore, but that is no reason to assume it is in black.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-12-19 at 01:54 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'll mention Fiendslayer Paladin again. It is mostly played against mono red decks. Those decks rarely play creatures with more than 2 power, so having first strike it can hit or block everything anyways, and not dying to their burn spells is huge. If it had said "Fiendslayer Paladin can't be blocked by red or black creatures" it would have been so much worse.
    I was speaking overall. Overall there are more creatures than instant/sorceries. Sure Fiendslayer is good in some matchups that love using instant/sorceries. But it seeing play is not a valid argument.
    When you look at Fiendslayer at lowest level. It having Lifelink is much more important than having "Hexproof from".

    I mean various crap saw play in a right deck, if the meta was Ok. It seeing play is not an impressive argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Hexproof is one of the most powerful of the evergreen keywords, if not the most powerful.
    Hexproof is powerful enough that 1/1s with it see play.
    Yes hexproof from [color] is a lot worse than that, but it's very far from not mattering 99% of the time.
    No. A blanket "Prevent all damage" card on 1/1 would probably make it rare and put it's CMC to 3. That ability alone is worth 2 mana and rarity bump.
    You might be right that "Can't be blocked by" is weaker than Hexproof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The part where you tried to argue hexproof wasn't part of what made the card busted. The part where you made a more expensive version of the card that only had the hexproof part in an attempt to make this point.
    My argument was that it costing 0 resource is a problem. Anything that's free or worse gives you resources for free is a problem. Phyrexian mana is a problem because it gives you something for almost nothing (life is the least important resource). Casting something without costing a card is a problem etc.

    Getting something for free is always a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's not about legality, it's about color pie. Sets printed for supplementary sets don't need to follow the same rules for power level as standard sets, but they do need to follow the color pie.
    Eh, they were at some point part of it, also an entire set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I can't tell if you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying. This was my comment:

    Scars block had bleed of black mechanics into other colors, it did not bleed all colors like Time Spiral did.
    I have also said multiple times that counter prevention might not be in green anymore, but that is no reason to assume it is in black.
    Yeah. And I said, even you admit that set mechanic like (Wither/-1 counters/Phyrexian mana) can go into a set, into colors it doesn't usually belong.
    Last edited by -D-; 2019-12-20 at 09:28 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    I was speaking overall.
    Why does overall mean anything? A mainboard Stony Silence is absolutely terrible, but that doesn't mean it's not a killer sideboard card.

    Overall there are more creatures than instant/sorceries.
    You would think that then made Essence Scatter better than Negate, but Negate sees way more play. There are way more things that allow creatures to beat other creatures than allow creatures to beat removal spells.

    Sure Fiendslayer is good in some matchups that love using instant/sorceries. But it seeing play is not a valid argument.
    How is Fiendslayer Paladin seeing play for it's "hexproof" ability not an argument for its hexproof ability being useful.

    When you look at Fiendslayer at lowest level.
    What does this even mean? What is lowest level?

    It having Lifelink is much more important than having "Hexproof from".
    Lifelink, first strike and "hexproof from" were all deciding factors for it being useful. What of those abilities has the edge isn't important, they are all necessary. People were willing to pay a full mana more for the "hexproof from", that was how important that was.
    A 3 mana 2/2 lifelink first strike would have seen no play, but Fiendslayer Paladin saw play, that means its ability was relevant.

    I mean various crap saw play in a right deck, if the meta was Ok. It seeing play is not an impressive argument.
    Again I never claimed it was an amazing card, but it specifically saw play because of the "hexproof" ability, an ability you claimed didn't do anything 99% of the time.
    It was absolutely played for the meta, but that's kind of the point, the ability was good in that meta.

    I see you once again completely ignored my comparison with Knight of Meadowgrain.


    No. A blanket "Prevent all damage" card on 1/1 would probably make it rare and put it's CMC to 3. That ability alone is worth 2 mana and rarity bump.
    You might be right that "Can't be blocked by" is weaker than Hexproof.
    Prevent all damage isn't evergreen. Hexproof is one of the most powerful evergreen keywords, with maybe haste beating.
    Hexproof is for instance way more powerful than vigilance.

    Eh, they were at some point part of it,
    But they're not anymore, so they're irrelevant. We are discussing what the colors can do now, not what they could do in the past.

    also an entire set.
    What?

    Yeah. And I said, even you admit that set mechanic like (Wither/-1 counters/Phyrexian mana) can go into a set, into colors it doesn't usually belong.
    I've already said that you can have all colors pay life if your set mechanic requires paying life. I don't see what this has to do with you claiming that phyrexian mana shows all colors get pay life.
    You can do it if it's important to your set mechanic, not on a whim. If the only way you're using corruption is putting it on yourself then all colors can do that. If corruption is used in different ways then green and blue don't get to put it on themselves, because they don't get to pay life.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-12-20 at 04:05 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
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    The card has two problems. First. It's too parasitic. You have to sacrifice three specific creatures or three Changelings. So you pull it out of the booster pack, and it's very underwhelming.

    Second problem is its effects. It's simply too powerful. Like unprintably bad. Assuming, your opponent doesn't play blue - you essentially get to do nothing for a turn.

    You have a card that's both hard to play, and hard to print.

    So how would I improve this? Exiling a spell for 1BU is fine. Exiling entire hand is just brutal of an effect, look at Thought Distortion. That alone is 6 mana. No exile the spell and stop draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why does overall mean anything?
    Yes. Limited.

    Look. Lanterns saw play in the mainboard, does that mean Lanterns are some kind of OP or powerful cards? No. They just found a niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    A mainboard Stony Silence is absolutely terrible, but that doesn't mean it's not a killer sideboard card.
    Sideboard Stony Silence is horrible in Limited as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Prevent all damage isn't evergreen.
    The discussion was - which of the components of Protection aka Resistance was most powerful. Damage is by far the most powerful part. Because it's on most things, creatures, spells, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Hexproof is one of the most powerful evergreen keywords
    We're not talking about Hexproof though. Hexproof from color. That's 1/5th of the Hexproof strength.

    Also, you are undervaluing evasion. Hexproof with no evasion/pump is just dead card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I've already said that you can have all colors pay life if your set mechanic requires paying life. I don't see what this has to do with you claiming that phyrexian mana shows all colors get pay life.
    You can do it if it's important to your set mechanic, not on a whim. If the only way you're using corruption is putting it on yourself then all colors can do that. If corruption is used in different ways then green and blue don't get to put it on themselves, because they don't get to pay life.
    Corruption is mostly self-inflicted.

    Only colors that can give corruption to opponents are black and red (with blue being strictly optional). And corruption negation is white.

    What I mean by blue optionally

    Machinations U
    Instant - U
    Counter target spell. If a spell is countered this way, spell's controller may gain a corruption counter. If they do, they draw a card.
    Last edited by -D-; 2019-12-31 at 05:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yes. Limited.
    Why does it matter that a card that clearly wasn't meant for limited is bad in limited?

    Look. Lanterns saw play in the mainboard, does that mean Lanterns are some kind of OP or powerful cards? No. They just found a niche.
    As did Fiendslayer Paladin. I never claimed it was an OP card, I just claimed it has a place as a sideboard card specifically because of the ability you claim doesn't matter 99% of the time.

    Sideboard Stony Silence is horrible in Limited as well.
    I fail to see how this is at all relevant to anything.

    The discussion was - which of the components of Protection aka Resistance was most powerful. Damage is by far the most powerful part. Because it's on most things, creatures, spells, etc.
    You said this of hexproof:
    Hexproof prevents a tiny percent of cards, compared to cards it doesn't deal with.
    I pointed out that hexproof is one of the best evergreen keywords, if not the best, so clearly it is a lot more powerful than you give it credit for.

    Preventing damage being more powerful than giving hexproof doesn't make hexproof not matter 99% of the time as you claimed.

    We're not talking about Hexproof though. Hexproof from color. That's 1/5th of the Hexproof strength.
    Not in the matchups where you want to use the cards though.
    It's like claiming Plague Engineer's ability is 1/100 of the power of Curse of Death's hold, because there's a 100 different creature types, clearly missing that you want to use it in the matchups where it hits most of your opponent's creatures.

    Also, you are undervaluing evasion. Hexproof with no evasion/pump is just dead card.
    Fiendslayer Paladin against burn doesn't need either of those.
    Geist of Saint Traft doesn't need either of those.
    Carnage Tyrant doesn't need either of those.
    Thrun, the Last Troll doesn't need either of those.

    Yes most small hexproof creatures are played with pump, but that's kind of the point of them.

    Once again you've ignored my comparison with Knight of the Meadowgrain.

    I'd also like you to reply to this point:
    Sure Fiendslayer is good in some matchups that love using instant/sorceries. But it seeing play is not a valid argument.
    How is Fiendslayer Paladin seeing play for it's "hexproof" ability not an argument for its hexproof ability being useful.
    Corruption is mostly self-inflicted.
    That makes the die at 20 corruption clause matter even less, since it's only relevant if you pay 20 of it while gaining life.

    Only colors that can give corruption to opponents are black and red (with blue being strictly optional). And corruption negation is white.
    What is the point in giving corruption to the opponent if it's something you want to have?

    Machinations U
    Instant - U
    Counter target spell. If a spell is countered this way, spell's controller may gain a corruption counter. If they do, they draw a card.
    This should cost 2. I get that it is card disadvantage, but it's also an unconditional counter spell for 1 mana.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why does it matter that a card that clearly wasn't meant for limited is bad in limited?
    How do you mean not meant for limited? Every card is meant for limited. Each card will participate in limited, with a small side note for mythics. Those can be arbitrarily powerful since they have little chance of being pulled at limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    As did Fiendslayer Paladin. I never claimed it was an OP card, I just claimed it has a place as a sideboard card specifically because of the ability you claim doesn't matter 99% of the time.
    You claimed that since it's used in few decks in older Eternal format means, it's powerful. I'm just noting that by that logic, Lantern is some kind of OP card, since it sees play many times more.

    To me, a card seeing play in a deck, means, it found its niche. A proof of it being powerful is that it's A) relatively recent B) sees play in meta decks. E.g. Oko is OP he immediately saw play in meta decks like say top 20. Fiendslayer didn't, ergo for I don't consider it that powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You said this of hexproof:
    Hexproof prevents a tiny percent of cards, compared to cards it doesn't deal with.
    I pointed out that hexproof is one of the best evergreen keywords, if not the best, so clearly it is a lot more powerful than you give it credit for.

    Preventing damage being more powerful than giving hexproof doesn't make hexproof not matter 99% of the time as you claimed.
    Yes. We were discussing which of Resistance from X parts was weakest. Those parts where
    A) Hexproof from X
    B) Can't be blocked by X (evasion)
    C) Damage immunity from X

    To me, the Hexproof from X is definitely not as strong as Damage from X. I might have misvalued Evasion. You noted Hexproof was a powerful evergreen, I noted damage immunity was way more powerful since it is too strong to print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not in the matchups where you want to use the cards though.
    It's like claiming Plague Engineer's ability is 1/100 of the power of Curse of Death's hold, because there's a 100 different
    You're forgetting I already talked about this - Reactive protection/hexproof is >>> than passive protection/hexproof.

    Plague engineer is played in a different way. You'll never going to play it in a way that's useless. So while there are 100 different types, you'll always target something.

    A permanent with Hexproof from X, at the moment, can't choose their color, if they did my evaluation would differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Fiendslayer Paladin against burn doesn't need either of those.
    Geist of Saint Traft doesn't need either of those.
    Carnage Tyrant doesn't need either of those.
    Thrun, the Last Troll doesn't need either of those.
    Look, Vigilance is an awesome evergreen, since it's on Questing Beast and Zetalpa, and those are powerful bombs.

    Yeah, no, that's not how you compare their power and usage.

    To compare Hexproof for its value, you need to isolate it and look at creatures that have just Hexproof and how it impacts their CMC.

    How do you deal with a plain creature with Hexproof in a low power setting aka Standard/Limited? You ignore it or AoE it. How do you win with it? You give it some evasion and/or pump it.
    Now water this down, since we are discussing Hexproof from X. Then, you just find the colors the creature isn't hexproofed from. E.g. against Fiendslayer, you play a white removal, like Path To Exile.

    How is Fiendslayer Paladin seeing play for it's "hexproof" ability not an argument for its hexproof ability being useful.
    How is the argument of something seeing play, an argument of it being useful?

    Any card can be useful given right support cards and metagame.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    How do you mean not meant for limited? Every card is meant for limited. Each card will participate in limited, with a small side note for mythics. Those can be arbitrarily powerful since they have little chance of being pulled at limited.
    Stony Silence isn't meant for limited. Yes you can pull it in packs, but it's not a card that is expected to see play in limited, it exists for constructed.

    You claimed that since it's used in few decks in older Eternal format means, it's powerful. I'm just noting that by that logic, Lantern is some kind of OP card, since it sees play many times more.
    When did I claim it was powerful? Show me the exact quote where I claimed it was powerful.
    I said it was useful, and it sees play because of this.
    I never said Fiendslayer Paladin was a very powerful card, I said its hexproof ability wasn't useless 99% of the time, which is what you claimed. You keep ignoring this.


    Yes. We were discussing which of Resistance from X parts was weakest. Those parts where
    A) Hexproof from X
    B) Can't be blocked by X (evasion)
    C) Damage immunity from X

    To me, the Hexproof from X is definitely not as strong as Damage from X. I might have misvalued Evasion. You noted Hexproof was a powerful evergreen, I noted damage immunity was way more powerful since it is too strong to print.
    This is a completely irrelevant point. At no point did I claim hexproof was more powerful than prevent damage to, I said hexproof was better than:
    "Hexproof prevents a tiny percent of cards, compared to cards it doesn't deal with. "

    You consistently try to argue against points I never made to begin with.

    You're forgetting I already talked about this - Reactive protection/hexproof is >>> than passive protection/hexproof.
    To that I made this comment which you've ignored:
    Good reactive hexproof cards:
    Heroic Intervention, Dive Down, Blossoming Defense, Vines of Vastwood, Lazotep Plating, Rattlechains

    Good proactive hexproof cards:
    Drogskol Captain, Fleecemane Lion, Geist of Saint Traft, Gladecover Scout, Gruul Spellbreaker, Invisible Stalker, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Silhana Ledgewalker, Slippery Bogle, Thrun, the Last Troll, Sylvan Caryatid, Vine Mare

    Plague engineer is played in a different way. You'll never going to play it in a way that's useless. So while there are 100 different types, you'll always target something.
    But you're not gonna want Plague Engineer in the matchups where it turns 1 of the opponent's 5/5s into a 4/4. Plague engineer is good in the matchups where it comes down and kills 2+ creatures immediately.

    A permanent with Hexproof from X, at the moment, can't choose their color, if they did my evaluation would differ.
    That's why they're played as hate cards in the matchups where the hexproof is relevant.
    Protection also only matters some of the time, doesn't make it useless.

    Look, Vigilance is an awesome evergreen, since it's on Questing Beast and Zetalpa, and those are powerful bombs.

    Yeah, no, that's not how you compare their power and usage.
    This is not a fair comparison at all.
    Questing Beast loosing vigilance would not make the card that much worse, while Geist of Saint Traft would go from a very powerful card to being unplayable if you removed hexproof.

    To compare Hexproof for its value, you need to isolate it and look at creatures that have just Hexproof and how it impacts their CMC.
    A lot more than most other keywords do. Cards with hexproof will be up to a whole mana more expensive than their non hexproof counterpart.
    Aven Fleetwing - Wind Drake
    Flying, Haste and Hexproof are generally the stronger evergreen keywords.
    Indestructible and Double Strike are in a league of their own, nut they don't really show up at common.

    How do you deal with a plain creature with Hexproof in a low power setting aka Standard/Limited? You ignore it or AoE it. How do you win with it? You give it some evasion and/or pump it.
    Arboretum Elemental
    Benthic Giant
    Cold-Water Snapper
    Dungrove Elder
    Horror of the Dim
    Lumberknot
    Plated Slagwurm
    Primal Huntbeast
    Rubbleback Rhino
    Sacred Wolf
    Scaled Behemoth
    Striped Riverwinder
    Vine Mare

    Most of the time these might as well have shroud. Pump/evasion isn't necessary.

    Now water this down, since we are discussing Hexproof from X. Then, you just find the colors the creature isn't hexproofed from. E.g. against Fiendslayer, you play a white removal, like Path To Exile.
    Which is why you play it in matchups where they're unlikely to have those answers. Is the concept of a sideboard card unfamiliar to you?
    If you play Fiendslayer Paladin against a Boros burn deck in modern they can board in two Path to Exiles in to deal with it, and have to hope to draw it. Those are pretty good odds for the Fiendslayer Paladin
    Against legacy burn which is mono red their best answer to fiendslayer is 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex in 75.

    How is the argument of something seeing play, an argument of it being useful?
    What? Why would something see play if it wasn't useful? The reason something sees play is specifically because it is useful in a situation.

    Any card can be useful given right support cards and metagame.
    And Fiendslayer Paladin has that, and therefore it is useful, and therefore its "hexproof" ability is useful and therefore you are wrong in saying hexproof from doesn't matter 99% of the time.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Stony Silence isn't meant for limited. Yes, you can pull it in packs, but it's not a card that is expected to see play in limited, it exists for constructed.
    It's still designed with Limited in mind. Otherwise, too many SS-like cards get in the card pool and make Limited disappointing.

    Each card is accessed on several Axes, corresponding to popular formats and purposes. Sure, you can let few slip by, but in general you need to watch the overall cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I never said Fiendslayer Paladin was a very powerful card, I said its hexproof ability wasn't useless 99% of the time, which is what you claimed. You keep ignoring this.
    First off. That's not a Hexproof from X.
    Second, he had "resistance" to two colors.
    Third, he had lifelink and first strike making him good at dealing with annoying hasters that control likes.
    Fourth, he's underplayed as it is. I mean is he even in 0.01% of all white decks being played now?
    Fifth, it seeing play is not a high bar, especially only in some lower ranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But you're not gonna want Plague Engineer in the matchups where it turns 1 of the opponent's 5/5s into a 4/4. Plague engineer is good in the matchups where it comes down and kills 2+ creatures immediately.
    It's still infinitely better than Hexproof from <COLOR>.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is not a fair comparison at all.
    Your comparison had Carnage Tyrant, Regenerating Troll, and lif

    Questing Beast loosing vigilance would not make the card that much worse, while Geist of Saint Traft would go from a very powerful card to being unplayable if you removed hexproof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Arboretum Elemental
    Benthic Giant
    Cold-Water Snapper
    Dungrove Elder
    Horror of the Dim
    Lumberknot
    Plated Slagwurm
    Primal Huntbeast
    Rubbleback Rhino
    Sacred Wolf
    Scaled Behemoth
    Striped Riverwinder
    Vine Mare
    Yeah, but those are late game bomb to seal the deal. They come pre-pumped, but if you are getting to turn 6+ land unless you are Control, that's end game turf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Which is why you play it in matchups where they're unlikely to have those answers. Is the concept of a sideboard card unfamiliar to you?
    If you play Fiendslayer Paladin against a Boros burn deck in modern they can board in two Path to Exiles in to deal with it, and have to hope to draw it. Those are pretty good odds for the Fiendslayer Paladin
    Against legacy burn which is mono red their best answer to fiendslayer is 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex in 75.
    Sure, but being a sideboard or even main-deck card is terribly context-dependent. Everyone is running with enchantment creatures? Oh, look. Elf that kills enchantments is seeing play in my main-deck (yes, it's that bad). No one is playing enchantments, out he goes... etc.

    Yeah, I keep forgetting Fiendslayer is way worse. He won't see play if Grim Lavamancer is used by red.
    So, yeah, he's worse. You don't need a white spell to kill him. Just target him with red ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    What? Why would something see play if it wasn't useful? The reason something sees play is specifically because it is useful in a situation.

    And Fiendslayer Paladin has that, and therefore it is useful, and therefore its "hexproof" ability is useful and therefore you are wrong in saying hexproof from doesn't matter 99% of the time.
    Because usefulness depends on the context. Just because you're useful against burn deck at point A, doesn't mean you'll be useful at point B.

    Furthermore, I don't see how he seeing play has anything to do with Hexproof from X being useful when they didn't print a decent permanent card with "Hexproof from" in... ever.


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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    It's still designed with Limited in mind. Otherwise, too many SS-like cards get in the card pool and make Limited disappointing.
    Stony Silence specifically isn't designed with limited in mind.
    Stony Silence is absolutely dreadful in limited, you would play Fiendslayer Paladin in limited.

    First off. That's not a Hexproof from X.
    No, it's worse.
    If a worse version of Hexproof from X is useful, then Hexproof from X is useful.

    Second, he had "resistance" to two colors.
    And that's better, but with Fiendslayer Paladin hardly what matters that much. It's his "hexproof" from red that's the vast vast vast majority of the time.
    In standard is mattered a little, outside of standard it matters very very little, since you typically only board it in against mono red, and those decks don't play black removal.

    Third, he had lifelink and first strike making him good at dealing with annoying hasters that control likes.
    And I've already explained how the synergy of the abilities was what made him good. If you didn't need the Hexproof then Knight of the Meadowgrain solves the same problem for 1 less. The fact that you're willing to pay 1 for the hexproof proves it's an important part of the card's usage.

    Fourth, he's underplayed as it is. I mean is he even in 0.01% of all white decks being played now?
    Possibly not, but he was in standard, you can't just pretend that format didn't exist.
    Him seeing little play says something about the general powerlevel of the card not being that high, it doesn't mean that the "hexproof", that you're deliberately paying 1 for, is useless 99% of the time.
    Seeing even a little play in non-rotational formats already makes him better that the vast majority of mono red hate cards that saw no success outside of standard.

    Fifth, it seeing play is not a high bar, especially only in some lower ranks.
    No one is talking about a high bar. Quit moving the goal post.
    Your initial claim was that the ability was useless 99% of the time, I'm showing that claim was wrong. I'm not saying Fiendslayer Paladin is some super powerful OP card.

    It's still infinitely better than Hexproof from <COLOR>.
    No, it literally isn't.
    It is better, it isn't infinitely better. Hyperbole helps your argument to no extend.

    Your comparison had Carnage Tyrant, Regenerating Troll, and lif
    I'm figuring this part was unfinished.

    Questing Beast loosing vigilance would not make the card that much worse, while Geist of Saint Traft would go from a very powerful card to being unplayable if you removed hexproof.
    I think you accidentally moved this part outside quotes.

    Yeah, but those are late game bomb to seal the deal.
    So your argument is that hexproof creatures need pump to be good except when they don't. Got it.

    They come pre-pumped,
    And a 2 power first striker also needs support to swing through anything with toughness 3+.
    The extend to which you are changing the question is amazing.
    You can't first claim hexproof creatures need pump, then change it to being french vanilla hexproof creatures need pump, and then change it to small french vanilla hexproof creatures need pump.
    You are constantly moving the goal posts of your arguments. That just goes to show how badly they hold up.
    Think of the argument you actually want to make and then make that, rather than change it every reply.

    but if you are getting to turn 6+ land unless you are Control, that's end game turf.
    Vine Mare literally costs 4 mana and sees play in Gruul Aggro decks.

    Sure, but being a sideboard or even main-deck card is terribly context-dependent.
    But having a context where a card is a good sideboard card literally makes it useful, that's what useful means.
    Saying it's context dependent doesn't matter. We're not discussing the

    Everyone is running with enchantment creatures? Oh, look. Elf that kills enchantments is seeing play in my main-deck (yes, it's that bad). No one is playing enchantments, out he goes... etc.
    And in that situation that elf would be useful
    Also in case you're referring to Reclamation Sage, that card is playable main deck.

    Yeah, I keep forgetting Fiendslayer is way worse. He won't see play if Grim Lavamancer is used by red.
    So, yeah, he's worse. You don't need a white spell to kill him. Just target him with red ability.
    Yes, he dies to the one of Grim Lavamancer that most burn decks don't even play. Seriously, go to MTGtop8, and count how many of the burn lists play Grim Lavamancer. Towards the end of last year it saw a lot of play, with many decks even playing two, not it doesn't see that much play. Yes Grim Lavamancer is a good answer to Fiendslayer Paladin, though not one they don't have ways to counter, but it's also a card whose presence in the meta varies.

    And if he had the "useless 99% of the time" hexproof from instead then he wouldn't have this problem.

    Because usefulness depends on the context. Just because you're useful against burn deck at point A, doesn't mean you'll be useful at point B.
    But you're useful against the burn deck. Being useful in one situation is being useful. Being useful enough to actually get played, is being useful.
    Fiendslayer Paladin sees play over Knight of the Meadowgrain specifically because the last ability is useful.

    Furthermore, I don't see how he seeing play has anything to do with Hexproof from X being useful when they didn't print a decent permanent card with "Hexproof from" in... ever.
    Fiendslayer Paladin has worse Hexproof from. If you gave Fiendslayer Paladin Hexproof from Red and from Black it would be better. His ability solves the same issues hexproof from color solves, and the fact that his ability is useful proves hexproof from color can be useful too.

    I mentioned this before, they've printed a total of two uncommons with "Hexproof from [color]". That's not a good enough basis to judge a mechanic as useless.
    Also, both Knight of Malice and Knight of Grace see play in standard, both as a mainboard and sideboard card.

    You can't just judge a mechanic by the cards that exist with it, especially not when the amount of cards is so small.
    Cipher is a very powerful ability, as it allows you to cast a card multiple times. The problem was Wizards recognized this, and therefore made all the cipher cards so awful that even with the powerful ability they were still bad. But don't tell me a shock with cipher wouldn't see play specifically because it had cipher.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    ...The applicability of Grim Lavamancer is specifically because Fiendslayer Paladin has less than Hexproof From, being even more narrowed down to specifically spell targeting. And its unplayability likely has a lot more to do with the various Protection-granters in general doing the job better for being able to actually protect your stuff on-board and usually can be whatever you want, and when it comes to dealing with Black in Modern, Mirran Crusader is going to be quite a deal better for having outright Protection, so it simply doesn't take any combat damage, and Double Strike, so it'll deal quite a bit more. Especially when pumped.

    And Paladin en-Vec also does First Strike and "screw Red and Black" at 2/2 for 3, being Protection From both, so unless you're really desperate for Lifelink or playing Pioneer, it isn't particularly notable. Even in those cases, Lone Rider is often going to turn out better unless you're dealing with exceedingly heavy Red and Black removal, in which case Brave the Elements and Gods Willing are better in most cases for, again, actually protecting whatever's on board instead of just giving the one resistant body, and let you pick whatever you need protection from. Unless it's Colorless.

    When it comes down to it, the issue with "Hexproof From", as Fiendslayer Paladin downgrades it, is putting it on a largely-regular creature, making it need to compare to a lot of other things, including packing Protection-granters and the non-Hexproof creatures, especially all the Protection From floating around in Modern. A 3/2 First Strike for 2 that can't be targeted by Black, which is what Knight of Grace does, is pretty darn good, but ultimately not enough to be played outside the cases where your gameplan relies on that one hard-to-kill attacker and the enemy's based around targeting stuff with Black, or there's quite a number of 3-and-under toughness creatures you want dead when they swing, which is again done better by Paladin en-Vec and Mirran Crusader, for not caring about the damage and being unblockable (or being a 4/4 First Strike Trample attacking as early as turn 3 for Lone Rider as It That Rides As One). The powerhouse of Hexproof is when it's on stuff like Geist of Saint Traft, where it enormously complicates the removal of something that's often desperately necessary to get rid of.

    Fiendslayer Paladin in particular is doomed to the sideboard at best, and very specifically against red burn, because Black has the better option of Knight of Glory to beat it down. And ultimately has to compete with It That Rides As One, which is bigger, costs less mana to drop and has Trample, at the cost of starting as a 1/1 until you can gain 3 life in a single turn. Which can trivially amount to sticking a pump spell on it when it blocks the following turn, which is often a better state than running something that can't be attacked into to begin with because you're actually getting rid of enemy resources.

    The TL;DR, here, is that Hexproof mostly matters when it applies to White and Green so your stuff targeting is important, or when it's on something that's important to preserve. And a simple First Strike Lifelinker usually isn't enough compared to running outright Protection-granters, which also stop combat damage and can even make your creatures effectively unblockable. It's that there's simply better options the great bulk of the time, not that it's irrelevant. When it's inbuilt to something with a good effect, it's a good ability, simply put.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Stony Silence specifically isn't designed with limited in mind.
    Stony Silence is absolutely dreadful in limited, you would play Fiendslayer Paladin in limited.
    Missing, the point here. It's absolutely designed with Limited in mind. That's why you don't see it in any set that would make an impact, i.e. "artifacts matter" sets.

    Yes, some cards can be great in Constructed and bad at others, or great for Commander and bad for others. Fiendslayer wasn't designed as a strict sideboard card. He's still somewhat decent in Limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No, it's worse.
    If a worse version of Hexproof from X is useful, then Hexproof from X is useful.
    I was talking about giving a permanent Hexproof from Color, not Hexproof from All-Color, or Hexproof from A and B. Because playing Hexproof from a single color in an environment where most decks are multicolors (i.e. Constructed/Limited/Commander), is exactly as writing " ".

    Also it saw some play in some meta. Congrats. Now you can join the illustrious ranks of Illusions of Grandeur. Or Sheherezada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    And I've already explained how the synergy of the abilities was what made him good. If you didn't need the Hexproof then Knight of the Meadowgrain solves the same problem for 1 less. The fact that you're willing to pay 1 for the hexproof proves it's an important part of the card's usage.
    And the reason why Fiendslayer won't see much play, is because red already has answers for it, but at some (this?) point of time it didn't, so you could side it.

    I personally would run Auriok Champion any day of the week, over the Fiendslayer, for some reason they didn't include it. I assume that Plague Engineer makes Auriok Champion worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No, it literally isn't.
    It is better, it isn't infinitely better. Hyperbole helps your argument to no extend.
    You can guarantee value with Plague Engineer. You can play it proactively (shutting down some creatures) or reactively. That's why you see it played a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm figuring this part was unfinished.
    I think you accidentally moved this part outside quotes.
    Yeah, gotta stop arguing with you before bed. But it's more or less complete. Sure Questing beast Vigilance is not important, but a Carnage Tyrant without Hexproof is still great. 6 CMC 7/6 Trampler, that can't be countered. Sign me up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Possibly not, but he was in standard, you can't just pretend that format didn't exist.
    I can try. Standard is a giant scam

    Hopefully, you see why I dislike talking about Standard. I mean, he could be great. Or the white decks just lost their powerful anti-burn card, and have to settle with Fiendslayer, because he's the only other game in town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    So your argument is that hexproof creatures need pump to be good except when they don't. Got it.
    Those creatures (most of them being green creatures with hexproof) still could use evasion/pump (e.g. flying/trample). They just don't need it as much. Most hexproofer creatures are generally smaller, since most creatures are in range of 2-3 CMC, followed by 4-5, then 6+ is its own rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You are constantly moving the goal posts of your arguments. That just goes to show how badly they hold up.

    Yes, he dies to the one of Grim Lavamancer that most burn decks don't even play. Seriously, go to MTGtop8, and count how many of the burn lists play Grim Lavamancer.
    Moving goalpost? I adjust my viewpoint when new evidence emerges.

    Ok let's put your claim to the test. According to MTGTop8, Grim Lavamancer played as side/main board card in 6901 decks (vs Fiendslayer's 15?). Monastery Swiftspear is a Burn staple, and it plus Grim Lavamancer are in 2904 decks, but it seems a lot of those are coming from Commander or some ****. Let's look at Modern. Here we have Grim Lavamancer is played in 1284 decks. Compared to 5 decks for Fiendslayer.

    Lavamancer is still played way more overall. I think there might be more Lavamancer mainboards than Fiendslayer has main+sideboards. Lavamancer might see less play, because dregde/delve hate is now more prevalent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Vine Mare literally costs 4 mana and sees play in Gruul Aggro decks.
    What format? Also, if you play Vine Mare, will the opponent still see turn 6?

    Vine Mare probably uses some pump, especially in Aggro decks, since those want to win now, rather than later. You still win by pumping it, since it's a safer target for pump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But having a context where a card is a good sideboard card literally makes it useful, that's what useful means.
    Saying it's context-dependent doesn't matter.

    But you're useful against the burn deck. Being useful in one situation is being useful. Being useful enough to actually get played, is being useful.
    No, you can't. Whether Fiendslayer is playable in meta depends on the other cards in meta. It has little to no value with what is printed on it.

    Here is a thought experiment. Meta has Auriok Champion (AC for short) and Fiendslayer (FS for short). AC is used against burn. Wizards print Plague Engineer (PE for short), suddenly AC isn't played, but FS is. Now let's say wizards print a creature that negates PE. Now, AC starts seeing play and FS falls out of fashion.

    Or here is another. Meta has PE and no AC, so people play FS. But now dredge is no longer a priority, there is less graveyard hate, so Grim Lavamancer can be played againt and FS is replaced by another card.

    See how one unrelated part of meta has changed the value of FS? That's my problem with deeming something valuable in meta. It's essentially random.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Fiendslayer Paladin sees play over Knight of the Meadowgrain specifically because the last ability is useful.
    Yeah, but did he saw play because he was good, or because cards that occupied his niche (anti-burn cards) were hosed out by another unrelated card? Or because no one expected him and didn't prepare.
    Did he saw play because he was a Human (vs Knight of Meadowgrain) or a Knight (vs Auriok Champion)?
    Or because he had 2 toughness?
    Did he saw play because his CMC puts him out of range of some spells/abilities? Etc.

    There are many parameters and you are ignoring all of them for a "simple" explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You can't just judge a mechanic by the cards that exist with it, especially not when the amount of cards is so small.
    Yes, you can. You can look at evaluations designers from MTG gave it. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are more accurate. If they were too off the mark, the cards would see a lot of use (e.g. Oko)

    It's a 2CMC 2/2 creature. That's common quality. They added something similar to Battle Brawler, which is an uncommon, but since it's weaker, they added Hexproof from Black. Yeah. I don't think they value it highly. I'd say it's probably like a <0.5 CMC.

    ---------------------------

    In liue of the thread title.

    Power Overwhelming - 2R
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    Whenever an enchament is sacrificed, put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME.
    T, Sacrifice an enchantment: Target creature gains +1/+1 and haste until end of turn.
    2/2
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-01-03 at 07:59 AM.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    And Paladin en-Vec also does First Strike and "screw Red and Black" at 2/2 for 3, being Protection From both, so unless you're really desperate for Lifelink or playing Pioneer, it isn't particularly notable.
    When you're playing against burn Fiendslayer Paladin is so much better it's not even funny. Protection against all damage matters very little, since only Monastery Swiftspear doesn't die to a 2 power first striker. Gaining life is massive against mono red.
    Outside of standard Paladin en-Vec has only seen play in duel commander and highlander, and half those decks play Fiendslayer Paladin too.

    Even in those cases, Lone Rider is often going to turn out better
    Lone Rider is such a different card there isn't even a comparison to be made. Lone Rider requires you to play a dedicated lifegain deck, and is as such a build around card. Fiendslayer Paladin is a card you board in when you need life gain in your deck that doesn't have lifegain.

    Lone Rider has no success outside of duel commander.

    unless you're dealing with exceedingly heavy Red and Black removal, in which case Brave the Elements and Gods Willing are better in most cases for, again, actually protecting whatever's on board instead of just giving the one resistant body, and let you pick whatever you need protection from. Unless it's Colorless.
    Again not a comparison. Fiendslayer Paladin works because you play it against mono red and they want to remove it, but they can't, and then you either keep them from attacking or gain life every turn, both of which are huge.
    In order to do that with Brave the Elements or God's Willing, you need to have a different lifelink first striker, hold mana up to protect it, and hope you have more protection than they have removal. Spoiler alert: You Don't. The deck is called burn for a reason, they're gonna have enough burn spells to remove a toughness 2 creature.

    The point of Fiendslayer Paladin is that you don't care if they burn your other creatures, Fiendslayer Paladin can win by himself if he has to.

    When it comes down to it, the issue with "Hexproof From", as Fiendslayer Paladin downgrades it, is putting it on a largely-regular creature... ...The powerhouse of Hexproof is when it's on stuff like Geist of Saint Traft, where it enormously complicates the removal of something that's often desperately necessary to get rid of.
    The thing is against burn Fiendslayer Paladin is a powerhouse that they need to deal with.

    Fiendslayer Paladin in particular is doomed to the sideboard at best, and very specifically against red burn,
    So? There is nothing wrong with being a sideboard card. Kor Firewalker sees a lot of play as pretty exclusively an anti-burn card.

    And ultimately has to compete with It That Rides As One, which is bigger, costs less mana to drop and has Trample, at the cost of starting as a 1/1 until you can gain 3 life in a single turn.
    Which is a lot harder to do than it looks.
    Source: Look at Lone Rider's results.

    Which can trivially amount to sticking a pump spell on it when it blocks the following turn,
    1. That requires running combat tricks. How many competitive decks do you see running combat tricks?
    2. Opens you up for getting 2-for-1'd if your opponent has an instant speed removal spell. Against burn they very well might have.
    3. That requires you to draw 2 particular cards rather than 1, and if you only draw one of them then you're bad shape.

    which is often a better state than running something that can't be attacked into to begin with because you're actually getting rid of enemy resources.
    You're trading 1-for-1, that's not particularly better than 0-for-0.

    Go on MTGtop8, search, toggle regular off and type in the card you want to search for. That way you can find out what results the cards actually have.

    TL;DR: You're not judging Fiendslayer Paladin for how it's used.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2020-01-03 at 02:41 PM.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Missing, the point here. It's absolutely designed with Limited in mind. That's why you don't see it in any set that would make an impact, i.e. "artifacts matter" sets.
    If by designed with limited in mind you mean designed to not matter in limited, then sure, but then it was a weird reply to me saying it's not meant for limited.

    Yes, some cards can be great in Constructed and bad at others, or great for Commander and bad for others. Fiendslayer wasn't designed as a strict sideboard card. He's still somewhat decent in Limited.
    Yes, he is. How does that make his "hexproof" less relevant for constructed?
    Dreadbore didn't destroy a lot of planeswalkers in limited, doesn't mean that clause doesn't matter 99% of the time.

    I was talking about giving a permanent Hexproof from Color, not Hexproof from All-Color, or Hexproof from A and B.
    Fiendslayer Paladin might as well have had "hexproof" from red, since you play it against burn decks.

    Because playing Hexproof from a single color in an environment where most decks are multicolors (i.e. Constructed/Limited/Commander), is exactly as writing " ".
    Black and red have the most removal, followed by white. Blue and green doesn't have that much. If you're playing against a green black deck, hexproof from black means they can't use a removal spell on your dude.
    Even against a black red deck, some of their removal will be multicolored, so you still dodge it, and you're blanking above half of it, so you're still down to looking at something 4-8 spells that hit it. That's very far from being blank.
    Do you actually think that if Tarmogoyf had hexproof from black, that wouldn't make the card any better in modern?

    Also it saw some play in some meta. Congrats. Now you can join the illustrious ranks of Illusions of Grandeur. Or Sheherezada.
    It's not a question about a super specific meta. A a creature that burn can't remove and that gains you life will always be needed. Fiendslayer Paladin does this, Bloodbaron of Vizkopa does this, Kor firewalker does this.

    And the reason why Fiendslayer won't see much play, is because red already has answers for it, but at some (this?) point of time it didn't, so you could side it.
    In standard it was one of the better cards against red. In modern and legacy it hasn't seen much play, but clearly some people who did pretty well thought it offered something over the alternatives. Kor Firewalker was legal at that point, so it's not like there weren't alternatives.
    In Pioneer it's also pretty solid, it being a knight definitely helps, but it also was in the board of an Azorious control list.

    I personally would run Auriok Champion any day of the week, over the Fiendslayer, for some reason they didn't include it. I assume that Plague Engineer makes Auriok Champion worse.
    Even if Auriok Champion was just a better card that still wouldn't mean Fiendslayer's ability was useless, but also:
    Fiendslayer was legal in a different standard environment, and in pioneer.
    Auriok Champion requires you to play many creatures, Fiendslayer can be played in control.
    Fiendslayer Paladin has better synergy with equipments and auras, so if your deck plays a lot of those it might be better.

    The card I was most surprised about not being mentioned was Kor Firewalker.

    You can guarantee value with Plague Engineer. You can play it proactively (shutting down some creatures) or reactively. That's why you see it played a lot.
    Plague Engineer is a very powerful card, that wasn't my point. My point is that it's still much better in some matchups than in others.
    If Plague Engineer only worked on Humans, elves and spirits, then you would only play it in matchups where lots of those creatures showed up.

    Yeah, gotta stop arguing with you before bed. But it's more or less complete. Sure Questing beast Vigilance is not important, but a Carnage Tyrant without Hexproof is still great. 6 CMC 7/6 Trampler, that can't be countered. Sign me up.
    No it's not. you don't want to play a six drop that just eats any removal spell and goes straight to the yard netting you no value. It's good specifically because it doesn't die to removal.

    Hopefully, you see why I dislike talking about Standard. I mean, he could be great. Or the white decks just lost their powerful anti-burn card, and have to settle with Fiendslayer, because he's the only other game in town.
    And he's useful because of his "hexproof".
    I think you've forgotten what we're arguing here. We're not arguing about whether or not Fiendslayer Paladin is a powerful card, we are arguing about whether or not the "hexproof" clause is a relevant line of text for its usage.

    Those creatures (most of them being green creatures with hexproof) still could use evasion/pump (e.g. flying/trample). They just don't need it as much.
    Not really. How much evasion/pump do you see getting stacked on Thrun in modern?
    When you're blocking you don't need either.
    You attack with your big hexproof beater, and if your opponent chumps, great, that's a 1-for-0, do this a few times and you win by card advantage.
    And you seem to forget the best evasion in the game: removal.

    Most hexproofer creatures are generally smaller, since most creatures are in range of 2-3 CMC,
    I included a 3 mana 3/1 in there.

    followed by 4-5, then 6+ is its own rank.
    I fail to see how this is in any way relevant to anything.

    Moving goalpost? I adjust my viewpoint when new evidence emerges.
    Well I'm glad some of it gets through to you, but then you should acknowledge that instead of just changing the question.

    Ok let's put your claim to the test. According to MTGTop8, Grim Lavamancer played as side/main board card in 6901 decks (vs Fiendslayer's 15?). Monastery Swiftspear is a Burn staple, and it plus Grim Lavamancer are in 2904 decks, but it seems a lot of those are coming from Commander or some ****. Let's look at Modern. Here we have Grim Lavamancer is played in 1284 decks. Compared to 5 decks for Fiendslayer.

    Lavamancer is still played way more overall. I think there might be more Lavamancer mainboards than Fiendslayer has main+sideboards. Lavamancer might see less play, because dregde/delve hate is now more prevalent.
    Congratulations on completely missing my point.
    My point wasn't that Fiendslayer Paladin is a better card, or that Grim Lavamancer sees no play. My point was that it's played as a few of, and not even in all burn decks. It does offer burn an out to Fiendslayer Paladin, but not a very consistent one. Your hate card doesn't become bad just because the opponent might have 2 answers to it.

    What format? Also, if you play Vine Mare, will the opponent still see turn 6?
    Standard and Pioneer.
    You might have them dead by turn 6, you might not. How is that relevant?

    Vine Mare probably uses some pump, especially in Aggro decks, since those want to win now, rather than later. You still win by pumping it, since it's a safer target for pump.
    The pioneer decks with it play 2 embercleave, and occasionally a Temur Battle Rage, so you can pump it, but it's not really something you're expecting or need to do.
    You're not going for pumping it no, you're going for it being a 5 power creature for 4 mana that doesn't die to removal.

    No, you can't. Whether Fiendslayer is playable in meta depends on the other cards in meta. It has little to no value with what is printed on it.
    A card can be a fine card but just not have a meta to ever shine. But even if a card ends up not being good that doesn't mean the mechanic on it isn't useful.

    Here is a thought experiment. Meta has Auriok Champion (AC for short) and Fiendslayer (FS for short). AC is used against burn. Wizards print Plague Engineer (PE for short), suddenly AC isn't played, but FS is. Now let's say wizards print a creature that negates PE. Now, AC starts seeing play and FS falls out of fashion.

    Or here is another. Meta has PE and no AC, so people play FS. But now dredge is no longer a priority, there is less graveyard hate, so Grim Lavamancer can be played againt and FS is replaced by another card.

    See how one unrelated part of meta has changed the value of FS? That's my problem with deeming something valuable in meta. It's essentially random.
    It's not random. Every card exists in an environment. A good card can be bad in a certain environment, and a meh card can be good in a certain environment. You don't even need to judge how good cards are in a certain meta, you can also just judge the potential for the card. Fiendslayer Paladin has alright potential. It's not great, but if there isn't a great anti-burn option around then it'll probably see a lot of play.
    And it will see a lot of play because of its "hexproof" which you seem to forget is what we are discussing.

    Yeah, but did he saw play because he was good,
    No, he was alright. But him just being alright doesn't make his "hexproof" not matter 99% of the time.

    or because cards that occupied his niche (anti-burn cards) were hosed out by another unrelated card? Or because no one expected him and didn't prepare.
    Not this one.

    Did he saw play because he was a Human (vs Knight of Meadowgrain)
    Human isn't relevant compared to Knight of Meadowgrain, his hexproof is. Knight of Meadowgrain is a fine card, but it's not a burn hate card.
    Being human might be a reason for playing him in modern humans though, (him or Auriok Champion), since Kor Firewalker isn't a human.

    or a Knight (vs Auriok Champion)?
    Knight is only relevant in pioneer, where Auriok Champion isn't legal.

    Or because he had 2 toughness?
    I doubt it. It's not like a burn deck can deal -1/-1 to each creature. It might make it better against something like Sultai delver if it plays Golgari Charm, but I'm not sure if that's a matchup where you want it.

    Did he saw play because his CMC puts him out of range of some spells/abilities? Etc.
    Nope.

    Bant hexproof was also a deck that could board him in to great effect since it could slap Auras on him.

    There are many parameters and you are ignoring all of them for a "simple" explanation.
    There you have it, no parameter ignored.

    The problem with Fiendslayer Paladin isn't that his protection isn't pushed enough. The "hexproof" does what it's supposed to.
    The problem is that the rest of the card isn't pushed enough. Modern and Legacy have large enough card pools that in order for a card to be good, it needs to be pushed.

    Yes, you can. You can look at evaluations designers from MTG gave it. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are more accurate. If they were too off the mark, the cards would see a lot of use (e.g. Oko)
    That makes no sense.
    I said you can't judge a mechanic by the cards that exist with it, like you're doing with "hexproof from [color]".
    If they printed this card:
    Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain - WW
    Creature - Kithkin Knight - R
    Hexproof from red
    First strike, lifelink
    2/2

    You can bet that card would see play in part due to the hexproof from red.

    It's a 2CMC 2/2 creature. That's common quality. They added something similar to Battle Brawler, which is an uncommon, but since it's weaker, they added Hexproof from Black. Yeah. I don't think they value it highly. I'd say it's probably like a <0.5 CMC.
    And that's fine, that's more than I'd pay for most keywords.
    Exactly what makes it potentially really useful is that it isn't valued that highly. Hexproof from red is obviously a lot worse than hexproof, but if you're playing against a mono red deck you don't need red hexproof, and because the ability is weaker the rest of the card can be stronger.
    It needs to go on a specific kind of card, you can't just strap it onto anything, but on the kind of creature you want to play against that kind of deck it's good.
    It's also better than it looks because green and blue aren't that relevant.

    Hexproof from:

    Loxodon Avenger - 1WG
    Creature - Elephant Soldier - R
    Hexproof from black
    If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Loxodon Avenger, put it onto the battlefield instead of putting it into your graveyard.
    4/4

    Fiend Tamer - 1W
    Creature - Human Cleric - R
    First Strike
    Hexproof from Red
    Whenever a red card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, gain 1 life.
    2/1

    Menivert, the Channeled - 2RUG
    Legendary Creature - Elemental - M
    Hexproof from black and from white
    Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, exile the top card of your library. You may cast spells exiled with Menivert the Channeled.
    4/6

    Scorching Pyre - 1RR
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Trample
    Hexproof from white
    Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, Surge Pyre deals 1 damage to that creature's controller
    3/2

    Freezing Tempest - 1UU
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Flying
    Hexproof from red
    At the beginning of combat, tap up to one target creature.
    2/2

    Consuming Growth - 1GG
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Reach
    Hexproof from blue
    At the beginning of your upkeep you may exile target instant or sorcery from an opponent's graveyard. If you do, draw a card.
    2/4

    Festering Grave - 1BB
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Deathtouch
    Hexproof from green
    Whenever one or more creatures attack you, put a -1/-1 counter on target attacking creature.
    1/3

    Blazing Light - 1WW
    Creature - Elemental - R
    First strike
    Hexproof from black
    Whenever you or a permanent you control becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, put a +1/+1 counter on Blazing Light
    3/1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Human isn't relevant compared to Knight of Meadowgrain, his hexproof is.
    Come again?

    In Modern he's played a lot in 3/5 Humans and 1/5 Company of Humans.
    In Pioneer 4 of 9 decks are called "Knights".
    In Legacy he's played in Death and Taxes 14/14. Out of the 14 decks, 12 of those decks run Cavern of Souls and bunch of Humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Gaining life is massive against mono red.
    Outside of standard Paladin en-Vec has only seen play in duel commander and highlander, and half those decks play Fiendslayer Paladin too.
    Hang on, your measure was comparing Fiendslayer Paladin to Meadowgrain, and said since both of them have similar cost and Fiendslayer has a better resistance, so its the resistance that makes him outstanding.

    But when you compare Fiendslayer Paladin to en-Vec, en-Vec has way better resistance, so the deciding factor should be lifelink/first strike.

    Which proves my point, on its own the "Hexproof from red/black instant/sorceries" is not good. Without lifelink, he's not a large threat. And without frst strike he wouldn't have survivability. His saving grace is that it's slightly more resistant than paper which gives you life.

    A creature 3CMC 1/3 creature with protection from red, and "At beggining of your upkeep gain 2 life", would see more play than your Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's not random. Every card exists in an environment. A good card can be bad in a certain environment, and a meh card can be good in a certain environment.
    In essence constructed is a random evolving format. You can't know what's going to be good. Do you know if Wizards will headdesk and print another Oko-on-A-Smug-o-Copter-Veil?

    My point wasn't that Fiendslayer Paladin is a better card, or that Grim Lavamancer sees no play. My point was that it's played as a few of, and not even in all burn decks. It does offer burn an out to Fiendslayer Paladin, but not a very consistent one. Your hate card doesn't become bad just because the opponent might have 2 answers to it.
    Lavamancer is a modern card.

    In Modern there are:
    • 1824 decks running - Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide, the most frequent burn cards.
    • 1247 decks running - Monastery Swiftspear, Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer.


    So Lavamancer is in approx 68% if burn decks. Is ~70% is considered few

    The burn is consistent, you just need to play 1 fetch and 1 burn. Or play Faithless looting, or play 2 spells, which as we know is impossible for a red burn deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Consuming Growth - 1GG
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Reach
    Hexproof from blue
    At the beginning of your upkeep you may exile target instant or sorcery from an opponent's graveyard. If you do, draw a card.
    2/4

    Festering Grave - 1BB
    Creature - Elemental - R
    Deathtouch
    Hexproof from green
    Whenever one or more creatures attack you, put a -1/-1 counter on target attacking creature.
    1/3
    You know what these might actually decent against? Oko. Otherwise fine design.

    Also, I'd push "Hexproof from" in another way.

    Anti-Mage 1WW
    Creature - Human Knight - R
    Hexproof from instant and sorceries.
    Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery, you gain 2 life.
    2/2
    "I smell magic in the air"

    Hyper Pest UU
    Creature - Insect - U
    Flying.
    Hexproof from 3 or less (This creature can't be targeted by spells and permanents with CMC of 3 or less).
    1/1
    "Oh, we just call them annoying **** around here"


    Also if we're adding suggestions I want to change my entry

    Power Overwhelming - BR
    Creature - Avatar - U
    Whenever a permanent is sacrificed, put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME.
    B/R, T, Sacrifice an enchantment: Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains haste until end of turn.
    2/2

    EDIT:
    Kambal, Consul of Legislation - WU
    Legendary Creature - Human Advisor - R
    Whenever an opponent casts a spell, with paid mana cost, less than converted mana cost, exile it.
    2/3
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Come again?

    In Modern he's played a lot in 3/5 Humans and 1/5 Company of Humans.
    In Pioneer 4 of 9 decks are called "Knights".
    In Legacy he's played in Death and Taxes 14/14. Out of the 14 decks, 12 of those decks run Cavern of Souls and bunch of Humans.
    I didn't say it wasn't relevant that he was a human, I said that wasn't the reason they run him. If Knight of the Meadowgrain was a human they wouldn't run it instead.

    Hang on, your measure was comparing Fiendslayer Paladin to Meadowgrain, and said since both of them have similar cost and Fiendslayer has a better resistance, so its the resistance that makes him outstanding.
    Aside form a creature type difference Fiendslayer Paladin is just Knight of the Meadowgrain for 1 more for the "hexproof".

    But when you compare Fiendslayer Paladin to en-Vec, en-Vec has way better resistance, so the deciding factor should be lifelink/first strike.
    It should be the lifelink, they both have first strike, not that the paladin's is going to matter in the matchups where it's good.

    Which proves my point, on its own the "Hexproof from red/black instant/sorceries" is not good. Without lifelink, he's not a large threat. And without frst strike he wouldn't have survivability.
    That's hardly a point.
    I've already said you can't just slap hexproof from [color] on anything and expect it to matter.
    Of course if it needs to win combats then it needs a statline and abilities to win combats, but if it has to swing in for damage then it needs evasion instead.

    His saving grace is that it's slightly more resistant than paper which gives you life.
    Um, what?

    A creature 3CMC 1/3 creature with protection from red, and "At beggining of your upkeep gain 2 life", would see more play than your Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain.
    For three mana? I'm not convinced. I think it's too slow. If Fiendslayer Paladin blocks a creature that gives you 2 life that turn, and prevents the two damage the creature would deal, this doesn't prevent the two damage. With one power it doesn't trade for anything. Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain is a turn faster which is huge.
    Also Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain is much better in the mainboard, for instance as a one of to grab with Recruiter of the Guard.
    Nyx-Fleece Ram was a fine card, but not much more than that.

    In essence constructed is a random evolving format. You can't know what's going to be good. Do you know if Wizards will headdesk and print another Oko-on-A-Smug-o-Copter-Veil?
    Unknown doesn't mean random.
    The fact that there is randomness doesn't mean you can't still know things.

    So Lavamancer is in approx 68% if burn decks. Is ~70% is considered few
    What I said:
    My point was that it's played as a few of, and not even in all burn decks.
    It's played as a few of, as in the decks play 1 or 2. That means it's not a card that will show up all the time like their playset cards.

    Or play Faithless looting,
    1. That's banned.
    2. You don't play that in burn.


    Anti-Mage 1WW
    Creature - Human Knight - R
    Hexproof from instant and sorceries.
    Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery, you gain 2 life.
    2/2
    "I smell magic in the air"
    I feel like this is 90% just hexproof, since it's instant and sorceries you care about. With just one of the types I think it's a more interesting design. This way it feels too much like hexproof to be white.
    It reminds me of this card I made in the make your own card challenge some time ago:
    Silverforged Sentinel - 2W
    Artifact Creature - Golem - U
    First strike, protection from instants
    3/1
    I think I prefer hexproof though, as you can both play pumps on it yourself, and the opponent can damage it with instant speed aoe, which ends up making it more interactive.

    Hyper Pest UU
    Creature - Insect - U
    Flying.
    Hexproof from 3 or less (This creature can't be targeted by spells and permanents with CMC of 3 or less).
    1/1
    "Oh, we just call them annoying **** around here"
    The correct wording is Hexproof from converted mana cost 3 or less. Source: Mistmeadow Skulk.
    The design is neat, the card itself is way underpowered.

    Also if we're adding suggestions I want to change my entry

    Power Overwhelming - BR
    Creature - Avatar - U
    Whenever a permanent is sacrificed, put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME.
    B/R, T, Sacrifice an enchantment: Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains haste until end of turn.
    2/2
    I'm assuming you've seen Blood Aspirant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't relevant that he was a human, I said that wasn't the reason they run him. If Knight of the Meadowgrain was a human they wouldn't run it instead.
    Yeah, but it might explain why Kor firewalker doesn't see play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Aside from a creature type difference Fiendslayer Paladin is just Knight of the Meadowgrain for 1 more for the "hexproof".
    An apter comparison might be En Vec. Protection -> Hexproof from, but gets Lifelink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    For three mana? I'm not convinced. I think it's too slow. If Fiendslayer Paladin blocks a creature that gives you 2 life that turn, and prevents the two damage the creature would deal, this doesn't prevent the two damage. With one power it doesn't trade for anything. Fiendslayer of Meadowgrain is a turn faster which is huge.
    You put it at two? I guess, it might work, maybe not being human is enough to lower the price.

    But ok.

    Paladin Cul-de-Sac WW
    Creature - Human Knight
    Protection from red and black. At beginning of each end step you gain 2 life.
    2/2
    "By flame of Uldum, none shall pass!"


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Unknown doesn't mean random.
    The fact that there is randomness doesn't mean you can't still know things.
    The sheer number of cards interacting, and all the ways they can interact means predicting interaction is probably pointless.

    Like all ecosystems, it's a chaotic system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's played as a few of, as in the decks play 1 or 2. That means it's not a card that will show up all the time like their playset cards.
    So? Not sure what your point is. Grim Lavamancer is in most burn decks at 1 or 2, (2 seems more common with first being mainboard, second being sideboard).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    1. That's banned.
    2. You don't play that in burn.
    1. It was banned relatively recently.
    2. Maybe, but burn never had problem dumping a large part of hand into the graveyard. From my experience, never did it lack food for firing. Plus since burn plays Sunbaked Canyon, they have way to stack the graveyard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm assuming you've seen Blood Aspirant.
    Yeah, but also Bontu.

    Good thing black doesn't have any annoying enchantments it might want to remove.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yeah, but it might explain why Kor firewalker doesn't see play.
    Literally the from the same paragraph as what you originally quoted:
    Being human might be a reason for playing him in modern humans though, (him or Auriok Champion), since Kor Firewalker isn't a human.
    An apter comparison might be En Vec. Protection -> Hexproof from, but gets Lifelink.
    Both are fine comparisons. What can be seen by the results is that the lifelink matters more than the "hexproof" being protection.

    You put it at two? I guess, it might work, maybe not being human is enough to lower the price.
    I don't think you can set it at two with it being noninteractable by burn and gaining two life each turn no matter what.

    Paladin Cul-de-Sac WW
    Creature - Human Knight
    Protection from red and black. At beginning of each end step you gain 2 life.
    2/2
    "By flame of Uldum, none shall pass!"
    I'm extremely sure this is just straight up more powerful than they want to print this sort of card. It could maybe be printed at 3, but even that I doubt gaining 4 life a turn. Compare it with Kor Firewalker. You get another protection, and guaranteed 4 life each turn.
    Was this meant to only trigger during your own end step, because that would make it a lot more fair, but I still think it would be too strong to see print.
    You can always make a more powerful card, but that doesn't mean that card could ever get printed.
    The point with first strike and hexproof from and some lifegain ability is that you can make a creature that is really good against burn, while not being too powerful overall. If you use protection then in order to make a card that is as good against burn then it ends up being too powerful in general compared to similar cards.

    The sheer number of cards interacting, and all the ways they can interact means predicting interaction is probably pointless.
    Not really. It's hard to say anything for sure, but it's usually the same archetypes that are around and the same kind of cards that are good against them.

    So? Not sure what your point is. Grim Lavamancer is in most burn decks at 1 or 2, (2 seems more common with first being mainboard, second being sideboard).
    My point is that it's not an answer they're going to have that often if they only play 1 or 2 of it.

    2. Maybe, but burn never had problem dumping a large part of hand into the graveyard. From my experience, never did it lack food for firing. Plus since burn plays Sunbaked Canyon, they have way to stack the graveyard.
    I never claimed burn had trouble feeding the lavamancer, I just said they didn't play Faithless Looting.


    Cemetery Keeper - 1G
    Creature - Dryad - R
    Hexproof from Black
    Creature cards can't leave Graveyards.
    2/2
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm extremely sure this is just straight up more powerful than they want to print this sort of card. It could maybe be printed at 3, but even that I doubt gaining 4 life a turn. Compare it with Kor Firewalker. You get another protection, and guaranteed 4 life each turn.
    Was this meant to only trigger during your own end step, because that would make it a lot more fair, but I still think it would be too strong to see print.
    You can always make a more powerful card, but that doesn't mean that card could ever get printed.
    The point with first strike and hexproof from and some lifegain ability is that you can make a creature that is really good against burn, while not being too powerful overall. If you use protection then in order to make a card that is as good against burn then it ends up being too powerful in general compared to similar cards.
    Yeah, since last was too UP, I swinged for how powerful I could make it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not really. It's hard to say anything for sure, but it's usually the same archetypes that are around and the same kind of cards that are good against them.
    That part you're unsure is why it is IMO random. A new interaction, or change of interaction change it completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    My point is that it's not an answer they're going to have that often if they only play 1 or 2 of it.
    Well, it's going to see play as much as Fiendslayer paladin in a match. Decks run 1-2 Fiendslayer in side IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Cemetery Keeper - 1G
    Creature - Dryad - R
    Hexproof from Black
    Creature cards can't leave Graveyards.
    2/2
    Seems oddly specific. Also is the wording correct? This would prevent exiling creature cards from graveyard.

    Reminds me of a card, I have.

    Keeper of Corpses -3B
    Creature - Naga Cleric - U
    Spells and abilities your opponent control can't target cards in your graveyard.
    4/2
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-01-04 at 07:53 AM.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yeah, since last was too UP, I swinged for how powerful I could make it.
    Less powerful than this for certain.

    That part you're unsure is why it is IMO random. A new interaction, or change of interaction change it completely.
    Magic has randomness too, that doesn't mean it's all random. You can talk about things that can happen to a meta just like you can say what things can happen in a match.

    Well, it's going to see play as much as Fiendslayer paladin in a match. Decks run 1-2 Fiendslayer in side IIRC.
    That's not how randomness works.
    If there is a small chance that you draw a specific of your cards, and there is a small chance that I draw a specific of my cards, the chance that we both draw them together is much smaller.

    Seems oddly specific. Also is the wording correct? This would prevent exiling creature cards from graveyard.
    Yes, it would prevent that, that's intentional.
    To start with it said "Cards can't be exiled from graveyards" but that was way too good for 2 mana with a body and a form of defense.
    It stops:
    Reanimation spells.
    Recursion to hand.
    Creatures that can be cast from graveyard (Gravecrawler, Escape).
    Creatures that can be returned from graveyard (Amalgam, Narcomoeba, Exhume)
    Creatures that can exile themselves to do something (Embalm, Scavenge)
    Exiling creatures to do something (Scavenging ooze, Delving creatures)

    Keeper of Corpses -3B
    Creature - Naga Cleric - U
    Spells and abilities your opponent control can't target cards in your graveyard.
    4/2
    I would like it better if it said Spells and abilities your opponent control can't target cards in graveyards. So it worked both as hate and protecting yourself from some hate I guess.
    Not sure how good this part is by itself since you can still have your graveyard exiled.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Creative flavored red cards:

    Passionate Artist - 1R
    Creature - Human - R
    At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of your library. You may cast it this turn if it's an instant.
    2/1

    Erratic Pianist - 1R
    Creature - Goblin - U
    Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the second spell you cast this turn, discard a card, then draw a card.
    1/1

    Scrapheap Scavenger - 2R
    Creature - Goblin Artificer - U
    Whenever an artifact card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, create a 1/1 Servo creature token.
    1/2

    Affection - R
    Instant - U
    Gain control of target creature until end of turn. That creature can't attack or block this turn.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I would like it better if it said Spells and abilities your opponent control can't target cards in graveyards. So it worked both as hate and protecting yourself from some hate I guess.
    Not sure how good this part is by itself since you can still have your graveyard exiled.
    Keeper cares about your graveyard a lot more, but I could see changing that ability to target others. You can pay for it to become a card that has +X/X counters, where X is the cards in your graveyard. It keeping your graveyard intact synergizes with its alternate form.

    Yeah, I left out the clause that mass graveyard sweepers, partly because my set doesn't have those and partly because it's uncommon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Passionate Artist - 1R
    Creature - Human - R
    At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of your library. You may cast it this turn if it's an instant.
    2/1
    Honestly, not that exciting for a rare. It's a very selective impulse draw. I assume because artist, it's instant, right? Some kind of burst of inspiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Erratic Pianist - 1R
    Creature - Goblin - U
    Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the second spell you cast this turn, discard a card, then draw a card.
    1/1
    Ok, I admit, Goblin having a go at the piano, is not what the poor piano deserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Affection - R
    Instant - U
    Gain control of target creature until end of turn. That creature can't attack or block this turn.
    What exactly is this supposed to do? You can't attack or block, you can't activate its abilities, since no haste.

    I can think of a few limited uses. Namely, sacrifice it for value. Or use the passive/triggered ability. Very hard to use in Limited.

    -------

    Hot Coals - 1R
    Artifact - Uncommon
    When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, choose a creature.
    At the start of each upkeep, CARDNAME deals 2 damage to the chosen creature.

    Is this correct wording? And is this affected by flicker effects? I believe it should.

    Kambal, Consul of Investigation - 1WU
    Legendary Creature - Human Advisor - Rare
    Whenever an opponent casts a spell paying less mana, than its converted mana cost, exile it.
    If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces {C} instead of any other type and amount.
    2/3
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-01-05 at 07:37 PM.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    You can pay for it to become a card that has +X/X counters, where X is the cards in your graveyard. It keeping your library intact synergizes with its alternate form.
    I don't understand what you're saying here.

    Yeah, I left out the clause that mass graveyard sweepers, partly because my set doesn't have those and partly because it's uncommon.
    You can exile the entire graveyard at uncommon.
    Agent of Erebos
    Crook of Condemnation
    Nihil Spellbomb
    Relic of Progenitus
    Scavenger Grounds
    Sentinel totem
    Tormod's Crypt

    Honestly, not that exciting for a rare. It's a very selective impulse draw. I assume because artist, it's instant, right? Some kind of burst of inspiration.
    It's possible that it could be an uncommon, I'm not sure. The effect isn't that good in limited, but
    It's possible that it could be instant or sorcery, but I was a bit conservative with this kind of effect, since you could easily make a deck where it just draws you a card every second turn.

    Ok, I admit, Goblin having a go at the piano, is not what the poor piano deserved.
    It knows what it did.

    What exactly is this supposed to do? You can't attack or block, you can't activate its abilities, since no haste.

    I can think of a few limited uses. Namely, sacrifice it for value. Or use the passive/triggered ability. Very hard to use in Limited.
    Well for one thing it can always remove an attacker/blocker.
    You can also grab static abilities, and some triggered abilities.
    And of course synergies with sacrificing.
    I imagine it would be in a set where it would interact with at least one of the mechanics.
    It's not meant to be super useful, but there's lots of neat little things you can do.


    Hot Coals - 1R
    Artifact - Uncommon
    When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, choose a creature.
    At the start of each upkeep, CARDNAME deals 2 damage to the chosen creature.

    Is this correct wording? And is this affected by flicker effects? I believe it should.
    "At the beginning of each upkeep" is the correct wording.
    I feel like this should be an aura. It sticks around after the creature dies, but it doesn't do anything with that, and it's colored anyway.

    Kambal, Consul of Investigation - 1WU
    Legendary Creature - Human Advisor - Rare
    Whenever an opponent casts a spell paying less mana, than its converted mana cost, exile it.
    If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces {C} instead of any other type and amount.
    2/3
    I feel like this tries to achieve the same thing Lavinia does. It does so slightly differently, but I feel like it's a specific enough thing that we don't need that many different answers for it, especially not since the second part is Damping sphere.

    I'm not sure how to word the last ability. I'm thinking maybe the wording from Nix. "Whenever an opponent casts a spell, exile it if an amount of mana less than its converted mana cost was spent to cast it."
    I'm thinking maybe do it Trinisphere style "Each spell that would cost less than its converted mana cost to cast costs its converted mana cost to cast.". That way cards that have a discount aren't just uncastable.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I don't understand what you're saying here.
    I kept writing library instead of graveyard. Guess I need sleep.

    In essence Keeper of Graves transforms into a Pile of Maggots (with +1/+1 counters for each card in the graveyard). It "Hexproofing" graveyard synergizes with second form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You can exile the entire graveyard at uncommon.
    Sure, but set I design doesn't have anything like that at uncommon. And I think it's fine to have a way to bypass it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's possible that it could be an uncommon, I'm not sure. The effect isn't that good in limited, but
    It's possible that it could be instant or sorcery, but I was a bit conservative with this kind of effect, since you could easily make a deck where it just draws you a card every second turn.
    Rare are often, cards that are bombs in limited (source: Quite the Rarity by MaRo). Granted they relaxed some conditions, Uncommons can be legendary permanents, but less often than rares.

    The card in question doesn't strike me as rare, in any way. It's not complex, splashy, narrow, or super impactful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I feel like this should be an aura. It sticks around after the creature dies, but it doesn't do anything with that, and it's colored anyway.
    Well, we had quasi Enchantment with Glass Casket. Why not a quasi aura?

    The idea these are kind of "torture devices" as one-off auras that can be reused, given some sort of flicker or a card that can return them to hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I feel like this tries to achieve the same thing Lavinia does. It does so slightly differently, but I feel like it's a specific enough thing that we don't need that many different answers for it, especially not since the second part is Damping sphere.

    I'm not sure how to word the last ability. I'm thinking maybe the wording from Nix. "Whenever an opponent casts a spell, exile it if an amount of mana less than its converted mana cost was spent to cast it."
    I'm thinking maybe do it Trinisphere style "Each spell that would cost less than its converted mana cost to cast costs its converted mana cost to cast.". That way cards that have a discount aren't just uncastable.
    Yeah, it's basically a stricter Lavinia. A Lavinia that cares how you're paying for it. So you can't Delve or Phyrexian your way, if you have enough lands.
    I think the easiest way, is to just change to rules to have term "paid mana" and it how much mana was transferred from mana pool, to pay for the spell.

    As for the Damping Sphere part, yeah, I mean. Honestly, I'd just copied the text. One thought that does occur to me, "If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces instead one mana of any color or one colorless mana." Or I could drop that part, but people didn't consider it flashy enough without it. Plus, it makes some sense he has a way to hose Delvers, Phyrexians, Convokers but not a way to hose Tron?

    Something akin to Mob probably too good for Standard, but meta card for Pauper.

    Emergent Pattern - 1UU
    Instant - C
    Counter target spell.
    Emerge 3U.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-01-06 at 06:03 AM.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    You probably don't want to have only one of the two effects be onesided. At the moment the 'pay costs' ability only affects opponents, but the 'tron tax' ability is universal, which would likely feel untuitive - I'd either make them both onesided, or both universal.

    Maybe something like this?

    Kambal 1UW

    Mana costs can't be changed, and can't be paid except with mana.

    Spells can't be cast without paying their mana costs.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    You probably don't want to have only one of the two effects be onesided. At the moment the 'pay costs' ability only affects opponents, but the 'tron tax' ability is universal, which would likely feel untuitive - I'd either make them both onesided, or both universal.
    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Maybe something like this?

    Kambal 1UW

    Mana costs can't be changed, and can't be paid except with mana.
    Spells can't be cast without paying their mana costs.
    Feel this is a bit too unfair. This is a universal shutdown, this would stop kicker and additional costs. Kambal is only against paying less. You pay more, that's fine.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    This is a universal shutdown, this would stop kicker and additional costs.
    No it wouldn't. Additional costs aren't a change to the mana-cost; they're separate.

    Alternative costs would be shut down, but kicker isn't one of those.

    EDIT: It does completely shut down Hogaak, but that's probably a good thing.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2020-01-06 at 07:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Feel this is a bit too unfair. This is a universal shutdown, this would stop kicker and additional costs. Kambal is only against paying less. You pay more, that's fine.
    I feel like kicker and additional costs come up pretty rarely. If anything, it's a worse card than having it only affect discounts, because it negates Thalia.

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    No it wouldn't. Additional costs aren't a change to the mana-cost; they're seperate.
    This is sort of a grey area in the rules - Trinisphere's wording implies that mana cost setting effects would take additional costs into account (you can cast kicked spells through a Trinisphere even if the CMC is still 1). You could probably word it better, though.

    "Each spell that would cost less mana to cast than its converted mana cost costs its converted mana cost in mana to cast" is a bit of a mouthful, though.
    Last edited by Gauntlet; 2020-01-06 at 07:07 AM.

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