New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 45 of 46 FirstFirst ... 20353637383940414243444546 LastLast
Results 1,321 to 1,350 of 1371
  1. - Top - End - #1321
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    So I finally got around to start watching Cowboy Bebop, a show that I frequently see described as a major classic and something that would be just my kind of stuff. And after the first minute or so, I was really intrigued.

    Having watched the first two episodes now, there's one word that comes to mind that perfectly fits my impression. Boring.

    Not even in an angry way, or complaining the plots are dumb or bad or anything like that. It's just really, really dull. The people drawing the backgrounds and the characters did great jobs, and the music works really well too. But nothing happens. There's just long establishing shots, people strolling around, mumbling a few words, and occasionally running after each other. And that's it. There is no plot. No meaningful dialog. And after the first spaceship shot, not even anything hinting at interesting worldbuilding. I love lots of anime from that time and with similar styles that are considered classic, but this so far has just been crushingly dull. It's like an Ingmar Bergmann anime, except that the shots aren't nearly that striking and evocative.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying

  2. - Top - End - #1322
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    I've been watching Dragon Maid season 2.

    Zodi? I assume that Illu is the character that you said was problematic?

    I don't mind her as a character but I hate her design.

    I particularly like the episode where Fafnir gets Lucoa to model for his manga.

    Take the hint, Lucoa.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  3. - Top - End - #1323
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    So I finally got around to start watching Cowboy Bebop, a show that I frequently see described as a major classic and something that would be just my kind of stuff. And after the first minute or so, I was really intrigued.

    Having watched the first two episodes now, there's one word that comes to mind that perfectly fits my impression. Boring.

    Not even in an angry way, or complaining the plots are dumb or bad or anything like that. It's just really, really dull. The people drawing the backgrounds and the characters did great jobs, and the music works really well too. But nothing happens. There's just long establishing shots, people strolling around, mumbling a few words, and occasionally running after each other. And that's it. There is no plot. No meaningful dialog. And after the first spaceship shot, not even anything hinting at interesting worldbuilding. I love lots of anime from that time and with similar styles that are considered classic, but this so far has just been crushingly dull. It's like an Ingmar Bergmann anime, except that the shots aren't nearly that striking and evocative.
    Bebop takes a bit to get going. Faye doesn't appear until episode 3 and Ed not until episode 9. Vicious, who is the focus of the overall plot rather than various episodic endeavors, initially appears in episode 5. Faye and Ed are significantly higher energy than Spike and Jet and their presence considerably changes the vibe on the Bebop.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  4. - Top - End - #1324
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    So I finally got around to start watching Cowboy Bebop, a show that I frequently see described as a major classic and something that would be just my kind of stuff. And after the first minute or so, I was really intrigued.

    Having watched the first two episodes now, there's one word that comes to mind that perfectly fits my impression. Boring.

    Not even in an angry way, or complaining the plots are dumb or bad or anything like that. It's just really, really dull. The people drawing the backgrounds and the characters did great jobs, and the music works really well too. But nothing happens. There's just long establishing shots, people strolling around, mumbling a few words, and occasionally running after each other. And that's it. There is no plot. No meaningful dialog. And after the first spaceship shot, not even anything hinting at interesting worldbuilding. I love lots of anime from that time and with similar styles that are considered classic, but this so far has just been crushingly dull. It's like an Ingmar Bergmann anime, except that the shots aren't nearly that striking and evocative.
    Personally I always preferred Samurai Champloo (which is similarly almost plot-less, but frequently more entertaining) and Space Dandy (which is just a ****ing riot) over Bebop which, as you say, is a bit of a slow burn to say the least (and not in a good way IMO).

    Bonus points in that all three have superlative dubs (the ENglish version of Space Dandy is actually the ORIGINAL; it didn't come out in Japan and get dubbed in Japanese until a bit later).

  5. - Top - End - #1325
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    LaZodiac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I've been watching Dragon Maid season 2.

    Zodi? I assume that Illu is the character that you said was problematic?

    I don't mind her as a character but I hate her design.

    I particularly like the episode where Fafnir gets Lucoa to model for his manga.

    Take the hint, Lucoa.
    I haven't been watching Dragon Maid season 2 because, as said much much earlier, Illu just does not sit right with me. Do not wish to interact with this character, her design is too disgusting for words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Personally I always preferred Samurai Champloo (which is similarly almost plot-less, but frequently more entertaining) and Space Dandy (which is just a ****ing riot) over Bebop which, as you say, is a bit of a slow burn to say the least (and not in a good way IMO).

    Bonus points in that all three have superlative dubs (the ENglish version of Space Dandy is actually the ORIGINAL; it didn't come out in Japan and get dubbed in Japanese until a bit later).
    Of these three Space Dandy is absolutely the best time, I feel? But also the hardest sell because it's ridiculous, and can be hard to take serious when it is being serious. Cowboy Bebop has that, for better or worse, incredibly slow burn. I feel like Samurai Champloo, then, is the mixture. It has faster pacing, and is a bit more energetic, but does have quiet moments that make the loud parts seem far louder.

  6. - Top - End - #1326
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Well, Dragon Maid episode season two episode eleven answered my question from a few months back: Turns out that dragon tail meat has healing properties. Tohru, in complete seriousness, suggests that eating roast tail would cure Kobayashi's back problems.

    A couple of episodes beforehand, Tohru casually comments that she can just... Make people immortal but that Kobayashi refused when she offered.

    This is really cheap coming from me but Tohru's powers are bull****.

    @Zodi: For what it's worth, they apparently skip 90% of everything in between Illu showing up and her face turn and after that she's only prominent in a couple of episodes. Apparently, they billed her as being a big deal but unless they're gonna do something big with her in the season finale the established characters get more focus. For what it's worth.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  7. - Top - End - #1327
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Found out that Chris Ayres just died today. That's...man. He was such a great voice actor.

    I knew he was ill, lung cancer, but last I'd heard he was on the recovery; well enough he could work again after he'd had to take a long break from voice work.

    Was a shock to see it.

  8. - Top - End - #1328
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Sep 2021

    Question Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Steampunk, cyberpunk, dieselpunk, biopunk… We know these things as an aesthetic, a subgenre, or a collection of narrative devices. But I want to know what is “Spellpunk?” What anime or manga seems like an example of Spellpunk?

    A smart fellow on Discord called Apgorn claimed that -punk works aren’t necessarily dystopian, but they have elements of it.
    Spoiler
    Show
    “Most ___punk genres draw heavily on dystopian corporatism, but thematically magic isn't the same as those - corporatism is a theme in cyberpunk because realistically only corporations could have enough capital to develop this tech; steampunk is imperial themed because only states could have that power, at that time; however spell punk would be different because most people agree magic isn't a resource like that, but that magical ability arises through bloodlines and inate power and stuff.”
    “So i think really good spellpunk would be about classism, overt societal racism, and a wealthy, intellectual, well-educated elite.” “There has to be a science of the thing for it to be a ___punk, and it has to have deeply imbedded itself in society.”


    So… what does Spellpunk look like? What issues does it typically tackle? What anime series or manga feel like Spellpunk? Does Xianxia fit?

  9. - Top - End - #1329
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gomipile's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rilmani View Post

    So… what does Spellpunk look like? What issues does it typically tackle? What anime series or manga feel like Spellpunk? Does Xianxia fit?
    The first two series that come to mind are Vision of Escaflowne, and Fullmetal Alchemist.

    They both have some magitech with a dose of body horror that mirrors the way cybernetics, genetic engineering, etc. are often used in cyberpunk stories. The existential horror resulting from that feels a lot like the storylines in cyberpunk relating to what it means to be a person, the personhood of artificial intelligences, characters whos bodies and/or minds have been radically altered against their will. And they both deal with entrenched oppressive authorities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  10. - Top - End - #1330
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Did anyone watch the 2020 reboot of the orignal Digimon adventure? I'm curious about it, but at the same time I'm...

    Digimon holds a very special place in my heart but Tri burned me so damn bad.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  11. - Top - End - #1331
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    LaZodiac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Did anyone watch the 2020 reboot of the orignal Digimon adventure? I'm curious about it, but at the same time I'm...

    Digimon holds a very special place in my heart but Tri burned me so damn bad.
    If you were hurt by Tri, Digimon Adventure Reboot 2020 will be like sticking your hand in the pain box. Don't do it.

  12. - Top - End - #1332
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dragonus45's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Did anyone watch the 2020 reboot of the orignal Digimon adventure? I'm curious about it, but at the same time I'm...

    Digimon holds a very special place in my heart but Tri burned me so damn bad.
    It's not exactly bad, it makes some interesting decisions about how to handle the group dynamic by not having everyone get sent to the digital world at once and opens really really strong on its first few episodes... but from there it starts getting kind of repetitive in how it handles plot arcs and it never quite catches that excellent feeling of, well, adventure for lack of the better term that the first Digimon Adventure did. Nowhere near as bad as Tri though.
    Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

  13. - Top - End - #1333
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Considering I thought Tri was largely mediocre, rather than bad, that means it might be a fun watch.

  14. - Top - End - #1334
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Prime32's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Did anyone watch the 2020 reboot of the orignal Digimon adventure? I'm curious about it, but at the same time I'm...

    Digimon holds a very special place in my heart but Tri burned me so damn bad.
    Basically it's a series of cool-looking fight scenes against largely mindless opponents, with very little plot. Seems a lot of the original plans for the series had to be scrapped due to a combination of Covid restrictions and "marketing called, we need you to debut the Mega next week for synergy with the cardgame expansion we're releasing then".

  15. - Top - End - #1335
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rilmani View Post
    So… what does Spellpunk look like? What issues does it typically tackle? What anime series or manga feel like Spellpunk? Does Xianxia fit?
    Spellpunk is similar to dystopian superhero settings in terms of overall operation, with the big difference usually being you have to undergo schooling to be part of the empowered oligarchy and that the innate ability is usually explicitly heritable so the ruling class tends to be very clannish and hidebound. Anime doesn't seem to like this concept much because just as American audiences dislike interpreting the full implications of superhero settings Japanese ones dislike doing the same for your typical shounen hero setting. Naruto, for example, is a very good example of a 'spellpunk' setting in that everyone who is important is a ninja who studied for years to acquire superhuman chakra powers, even within the ninja aristocracy clans with inherited powers are superior, and the common people are utterly helpless, but so much as thinking about that is basically prohibited by the story.

    Xianxia can fit this - Cultivators tend to be an elite oligarchy - but usually Xianxia stories tend to be like Western wizard oriented stories, where the events are sort of sealed off from reality in their own special story bubble and things don't spill over, again similar to shounen adventure tales and superhero settings.

    Stories that interrogate this sort of thing are fairly rare. In part because they tend to be extremely grim and because it's harder to place the good guys in a believable position to both exist at all, and to defeat the entrenched authority. After all, if acquiring superhuman powers isn't a sudden event like being by a radioactive spider but instead requires years of practice, it also comes with years of indoctrination, and so the hero has to be someone who somehow acquires powers and the knowledge of how to use them but misses out on the indoctrination part and usually must be powered by sufficient hatred of the existing regime that they are willing to try and engage in some extremely high-risk scheme to try to smash it. Often this requires taking some downtrodden person jaded against a system that has failed them terribly and then simply dumping a giant pile of fiat power on top of them.

    The Korean manhwa subgenre of 'game like dungeons in the real world' where the aristocracy of leading guilds is hopelessly corrupt - ex. Solo Leveling - tends to have this kind of story actually.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  16. - Top - End - #1336
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Prime32's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Stories that interrogate this sort of thing are fairly rare. In part because they tend to be extremely grim and because it's harder to place the good guys in a believable position to both exist at all, and to defeat the entrenched authority. After all, if acquiring superhuman powers isn't a sudden event like being by a radioactive spider but instead requires years of practice, it also comes with years of indoctrination, and so the hero has to be someone who somehow acquires powers and the knowledge of how to use them but misses out on the indoctrination part and usually must be powered by sufficient hatred of the existing regime that they are willing to try and engage in some extremely high-risk scheme to try to smash it. Often this requires taking some downtrodden person jaded against a system that has failed them terribly and then simply dumping a giant pile of fiat power on top of them.
    A Certain Magical Index? Unlocking esper abilities requires spending years going through the Power Development Curriculum. All espers are graded from Level 0-5, with higher levels receiving more privileges and being able to attend more prestigious schools (high-level esper powers also have the side effect of increasing your intelligence, with the strongest having brains on par with a supercomputer). Level 0s have powers which are barely detectable, generally feel like rejects, and have formed street gangs hiding away where the city's surveillance systems can't find them. Oh, and becoming an esper, even a Level 0, also makes you unable to use magic, though the existence of magic isn't public knowledge so most students don't know they even had this opportunity in the first place.

    The official story is that the next Level 5 could be anyone as long as they put in the effort. But in reality it's possible for the city to predict someone's maximum potential with a high degree of accuracy, which is kept in a top-secret document called the Parameter List. Resources are secretly diverted from students with uninteresting powers in favour of those which could be useful to some mad scientist's research project.

    One of the protagonists is an orphan who was experimented on by Academy City and raised as a living weapon, then had a freak out when he realised how much they were manipulating him, and set about trying to destroy the system so that no one else would have to become a monster like him. Despite being supposedly the strongest guy in the world, he spends a lot of time feeling utterly powerless - like the Chairman only allows him to live because even his attempts at rebellion were within calculations.
    Spoiler: IIRC in the later novels
    Show
    After much character development he eventually becomes the new Chairman, reveals the existence of the Parameter List, institutes sweeping reforms, and starts arresting everyone involved in the "dark side" of the city... including himself.

    That's the most "punk" one. Out of the other protagonists: One is a guy who can negate esper powers, and is heroic but largely ambivalent to the system and just saves people in front of him (he does disrupt things, but not intentionally). One is a Level 5 who fights mostly rogue factions and doesn't know much of the deeper conspiracies of the city. And one is an average Level 0 who keeps getting dragged into underworld wars and cares mostly about how he's going to escape the next crazy situation alive.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2021-11-07 at 08:01 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1337
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    A Certain Magical Index?
    I haven't read the light novels, so it's hard to say. The show (and the Railgun spin-off) are all over the place tonally and also never really leaves Academy City. It's also not exactly clear what exactly the Espers and Magicians and all the other stuff in the setting actually do with their powers. That's one of the tricky bits about 'Spellpunk' generally in that magic isn't a technology and therefore it doesn't transfer. In a steampunk setting you can murder all the tyrannical overlords and the machines will still be there and the revolutionaries can turn them back on after the war is over and life goes on. In a spellpunk setting where the economy (and sometimes the existence of life itself) is dependent upon magicians spending their effort to keep it running the proletariat revolution, should it come, means immediate societal collapse or possibly an extinction level event. The entire 'last wizard' story setup often interrogates this problem, in which society freed itself from the oppression shackles of their magical masters, and now they're doomed unless the one person their genocide missed can save them (some of these are rather famous, like Star Wars).

    All in all it's a fundamental difficulty of having a setting where people who are born into subgroup B are inherently superior in some way to the overall much more numerous population (especially when they are so superior that the weight of overwhelming numbers means nothing). The implications of power structures, human rights, and the obligations of one group to another in a world were one group of people really are 'better' than other groups are a miserable enterprise and if mapped out without extreme care tend to result in grimdark hellscapes. For example, the manga/anime Shaow Star (aka Narutaru), in which young Japanese teenagers bond with nigh-invincible creatures called Dragonets and proceed to respond to bad things that happen to them (most of which are indeed truly horrifying) by lashing out and straight-up murdering anyone who dares to hurt them, often with no regard to innocent bystanders.
    Spoiler
    Show
    The series ends with the protagonist going through a break down in which she 'cleanses the earth' by the expedient of murdering everyone else on the planet
    It's not a pleasant read, and while the series is a decidedly extreme example, any setting where the consequences of someone getting upset that they might, say, smash a chair or punch a wall, is that a city-sized piece of real estate is obliterated is hard to keep steady.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  18. - Top - End - #1338
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Because some of you might not be looking for anime on youtube's official pages:
    Many of you will probably know the name Satoshi Kon; one of his movies - Millennium Actress - is up for free on youtube's Movies and Shows page. Youtube's free movies tend to last a month or two before Youtube hides them again, although YT often brings them back a few months later.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KasqdsIaIs

    It's beautifully animated, and decently plotted, but didn't really grab me as much as I expected it to. Still worth seeing, though, and pretty short at under an hour and a half.
    Last edited by uncool; 2021-11-08 at 04:03 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1339
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    I rewatched the OG Naruto Chuunin Exams to get a few details right for a game I'm playing, but I got far more than that. It still holds up after all this time, though that might be the nostalgia talking. I'm actually surprised by how much Naruto and Hinata interact with each other, I guess I didn't remember them conversing that much, but even from these early interactions of how Sakura was treated and how Naruto's moments with Hinata were treated that Hinata was always the real love interest: Naruto having a moment alone with Sakura? played for laughs, ends with Sakura punching him in the face. Naruto having a moment alone with Hinata right before the Chuunin exams start, feeling nervous that is about to fight what might be the most powerful Genin in Konoha, gets cheered up by Hinata's shy yet honest words of encouragement. makes one wonder how anyone thought Sakura was ever going to be his love interest.

    though the moments where Naruto remembers his "precious people" really makes me question if 12 year old Naruto really had that good of a grasp on they actually were at that point because he keeps thinking of the same four people: Kakashi, Iruka, Sakura and Sasuke. problem is, I'd contest Sakura and Sasuke really acknowledging him or treating him well at that point? like all the "Sakura does nothing" complaints are spot on when talking about part 1 Sakura, and whenever things are light she just seems to see Naruto as this annoyance she has to deal with, and whenever things get serious she relies on Naruto to fix problems whenever Sasuke gets taken out. like she only cares about Naruto throughout the Chuunin exams because he is the only other person who is obligated to care about her. (Sakura's character in general seems to be "feel sad about Sasuke, if Sasuke not available feel sad about some Sasuke-adjacent boy" such as Naruto or Rock Lee) while Sasuke kind of cares about Naruto in a "he makes a strong rival" sense, but I'd hardly call their interactions friendship. Iruka and Kakashi actually make sense even if Kakashi is a bit neglectful, which is why Jiraiya is actually a breath of fresh air when he appears because he is a mentor who actually has time for Naruto specifically, is more hands on and more willing to understand and work with Naruto peculiarities rather than just shove him into doing what everyone else does without knowing anything else. while Iruka hasn't interacted with Naruto for dozens of episodes at this point.

    while we already see Shikamaru and Naruto having a friendly or at least chill relationship, every Hinata and Naruto moment being treated with more grace and importance than any Naruto and Sakura interaction, and we see Jiraiya being more helpful to Naruto in, like one or two episodes than Kakashi has in like, 60 at this point and more of a parental figure than anyone in Naruto's life.

    meanwhile Hiruzen's scenes are great just.....rewatching it, I'm just realizing how little the Third Hokage actually shows up and noticing that they have to put in flashbacks to reveal what importance he means to people, when it would be great if we had more actual screen time to show him when he was around. like its not bad, its just that I wish there was a bit more Hiruzen outside of flashbacks to illustrate just what kind of person and leader he was. also his soul-taking scene with Orochimaru is padded out over like four or five episodes which is disappointing because they could done more with the Orochimaru vs. Hiruzen fight rather than just doing all the good parts at once then getting stuck on the very final one forever while we cut to Naruto's half of things.

    but the music oh, I forgot how much I like not just the pumped up rock Naruto has, but the slow suspenseful theme they have, the light music for comedy scenes, the sad tones....Naruto's OG soundtrack really has a good emotional range that sets atmosphere and tone for each scene that its used for and I'm still not tired of hearing any of it.

    like rewatching this made me happy in a way I don't think I've felt in some time even if I notice the flaws. its nice.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  20. - Top - End - #1340
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    LaZodiac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Even with the flaws it has, early Naruto really was just that good.

  21. - Top - End - #1341
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Even with the flaws it has, early Naruto really was just that good.
    Yup, another thing I forgot to mention:
    during the Third Hokage's funeral, Sasuke goes to mourn Hiruzen. young edgy avenger "is-currently-cursed-mark-and-is-going to-betray-the-Leaf-In-two-arcs, doesn't care about anyone" Sasuke shows up in mourning garb with everyone else. which I thought was a good touch. because there are people who don't show up to the funeral like Kakashi, Gekko Hayate's wife and Jiraiya and are instead at the memorial stone. which implies that the funeral isn't compulsory if "trained by Hiruzen himself" Jiraiya can decide to go elsewhere and mourn his own way. it means that Hiruzen was such a great leader that even Sasuke respected the guy on some level. considering what is revealed later, it also adds a layer of dramatic irony.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  22. - Top - End - #1342
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yup, another thing I forgot to mention:
    during the Third Hokage's funeral, Sasuke goes to mourn Hiruzen. young edgy avenger "is-currently-cursed-mark-and-is-going to-betray-the-Leaf-In-two-arcs, doesn't care about anyone" Sasuke shows up in mourning garb with everyone else. which I thought was a good touch. because there are people who don't show up to the funeral like Kakashi, Gekko Hayate's wife and Jiraiya and are instead at the memorial stone. which implies that the funeral isn't compulsory if "trained by Hiruzen himself" Jiraiya can decide to go elsewhere and mourn his own way. it means that Hiruzen was such a great leader that even Sasuke respected the guy on some level. considering what is revealed later, it also adds a layer of dramatic irony.
    Sasuke wasn't born evil.

    Sasuke is a kid who was repeatedly subjected to trauma and stress and shocking revelations manipulation and an addictive source of power that subtly but permanently alters his mind every time he uses it and eventually we find out that he's genetically prone to mental illness.

    The Sasuke who showed up the mourn Hiruzin is the traumatized boy who wants to be strong enough to avenge his family and make sure nothing like that ever happens again, not the power-hungry traitor, not the bat**** insane mercenary, not the guy who wants to be the villain in everyone's story to prevent war, and not the remorseful man who thinks his wife and daughter are better off without him.

    Remember: In the land of Waves Arc, Sasuke instinctively threw himself in front of what he thought was a lethal attack aimed at Naruto, even though he really didn't like Naruto. Sasuke used to be a good kid, all things considered.

    Once you get past how the series... Maybe spends a little too much time on him doing "cool" things during his descent into madness in part two, comapred to NAruto's development, he's a rather tragic figure.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  23. - Top - End - #1343
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    I know Rater.

    we've been over this. I'm presenting evidence of him not being born evil.

    like watching these OG episodes, he does have his moments of not fitting what everyone flanderizes him as: he attempts to give up a scroll to Orochimaru to try and save his teammates, he respects Naruto as a rival on some level, he does try to protect people around him.

    considering what he knows at that point, his brother basically killing his entire clan for seemingly no reason, revenge isn't an unreasonable reaction.

    so what I'm going to say is this: Sasuke's early presentation might not be the best either?

    like when things are normal, he is just kind of stoic and doesn't really react to anything. like you get the impression that on activities he is just along for the ride sometimes while Sakura and Naruto show some investment in whats happening around them. when you get his serious moments where he is going "I want to succeed and become stronger to kill that guy I hate"......it doesn't feel like enough? if that makes sense? like they kind of maybe went too understated with him early on. like we could've used some scenes more interspersed throughout part 1 where he shows more emotions about it and explains why this is so important to him better? maybe some more scenes where he cares about the rest of the team a bit more openly as well.

    But maybe I just haven't watched the Sasuke Retrieval arc in a while and need a refresher on that to. and its probably still good, but there is a part me of me that sees why Sasuke doesn't have a good reception because throughout the Chuunin Exams you either have him being stoic, being knocked out or out of commission because of the curse mark, absent/late, or he is doing something stupid during battle that triggers the curse mark. and between all that, there is very little time for him to show how much he cares about others if he does at all. its a lot of him doing things that show him going down a dark path without much to make you care about him doing so.

    like imagine if Sasuke was there to see Hinata vs. Neji fight and it reminded him of Itachi screwing with him and he is like "screw you Neji, you suck I'm with Naruto on this one" or something like that and wasn't pointlessly resting off the curse mark. that would at least be something. but as it is, his presentation in general is just lacking.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  24. - Top - End - #1344
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Even with the flaws it has, early Naruto really was just that good.
    Naruto, like so many shounen series of similar stripes, was done in by an inability to handle power escalation and the changes to world-building, plot structure, and even characterization that needed to come with it (it's a shockingly D&D style problem, for much the same reasons). The initial arcs, staged largely before this happens - since the jump in power escalation really appears for the first time during the Orichimaru/Third Hokage fight - do indeed mostly work. Also, they almost certainly represent the entirety of what the author's initial structural outline contained, and everything after that was seat-of-the-pants production that never held together (this is also common in long-running manga, where there's a plan for ~12 volumes and then everything just sort of explodes afterwards).

    In many ways Naruto is the perfectly archetype of shounen series structure; both in how they can be great and also how they usually go wrong.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  25. - Top - End - #1345
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Naruto, like so many shounen series of similar stripes, was done in by an inability to handle power escalation and the changes to world-building, plot structure, and even characterization that needed to come with it (it's a shockingly D&D style problem, for much the same reasons). The initial arcs, staged largely before this happens - since the jump in power escalation really appears for the first time during the Orichimaru/Third Hokage fight - do indeed mostly work. Also, they almost certainly represent the entirety of what the author's initial structural outline contained, and everything after that was seat-of-the-pants production that never held together (this is also common in long-running manga, where there's a plan for ~12 volumes and then everything just sort of explodes afterwards).

    In many ways Naruto is the perfectly archetype of shounen series structure; both in how they can be great and also how they usually go wrong.
    Very well said. I've found that these series generally have 4 phases they go through.

    1) The original story, tightly written and very, very good. Inventive fights, great characterization, lovely plot twists.

    2) Show keeps going, either with a new villain or the goalposts have been moved (villain flees or was a clone or yadda yadda). Plot is decent but not remarkable, fights are still excellent, characterization falls by the wayside.

    3) "Well, at least the fights are good". Plot has tied itself in knots and no longer makes sense, characters are caricatures of themselves, forward story progress has ground to a screeching halt.

    4) Dear God WHY!?


    Naruto follows 1 up until the end of part 1 (discounting anime filler), is in 2 up until (or arguably through) the Pain arc, hangs around in 3 up until the war begins and then is firmly in 4 for the rest of the runtime.

    A couple of others:

    DBZ (discounting Dragon Ball because its effectively a different show for most of it)

    1) Up through the Freeza arc.
    2) Cell arc
    3) Buu saga
    4) Dragonball GT

    Bleach

    1) Soul Society arc
    2) Up unil Orihime is kidnapped.
    3) Hueco Mundo Arc and early phases of the Karakura Battle.
    4) Everything after that.

  26. - Top - End - #1346
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    You can't really so clearly delineate Naruto that way, since it has a lot of ups and downs.

    All of the pre-timeskip material is peak fiction. Post-timeskip the Gaara rescue arc and the one after that where Naruto goes 4 Tails are just...really boring and slow (more in the anime than the manga, but it's still apparent in the latter). Then things really pick up again with the arc where Asuma dies, the Pain arc, etc. it's all top tier ****, some of the best in the series.

    Then...the War arc. The never-ending leadup (like Sasuke's attack on the Five Kage Summit) is just kinda slow and spinning its wheels until suddenly plot points are slammed to sudden conclusions with no warning (eg. Kisame's two deaths) followed by teh actual arc itself having its ups and downs...the introduction of Madara as the definitely-final-bos starts to elevate it again until suddenly Moon Rabbit and things kinda go to **** again, only for the series to end on a super high note with the Nardo and Sauce rematch and reconciliation (even though really it should have been a "Fight me to prove you're worthy of being Hokage" moment from Sasuke rather than "Beat me or I nuke the village dumdum").

  27. - Top - End - #1347
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    LaZodiac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    I mean ultimately it's going to be subjective as well. The above Dragonball reference makes zero sense to me, every saga of Dragonball Z is excellent, and if you're including GT in this you have to include the original Dragon Ball anime as well- and you also need to do that ANYWAY because Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is an English invented divide. The entire series is just Dragon Ball.

  28. - Top - End - #1348
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean ultimately it's going to be subjective as well. The above Dragonball reference makes zero sense to me, every saga of Dragonball Z is excellent, and if you're including GT in this you have to include the original Dragon Ball anime as well- and you also need to do that ANYWAY because Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is an English invented divide. The entire series is just Dragon Ball.
    Yeah, personally I like high-powered fights. like, sure the tactical low-level cerebral stuff is good, but there is a reason Marvel, DC, DBZ and such are still talked about decades after their initial releases and such: like it or not, awesome/ridiculous high powered fights sell. things going so crazy that everyone starts pulling feats out of nowhere that while not very logical are sheer awesome are not a flaw, they're a feature. like sure you can make an anime about a shikamaru like figure solving all their problems with a shadow possession jutsu, a few explosive tags, some wire, a kunai and their brain but it probably wouldn't be for everyone.

    really, its all about execution. like you could probably argue things like the Fourth Shinobi War could've been better executed if there was no edo Tensei and they fought a much more varied and powerful zetsu army. I'd concede that. I'd also keep in bringing back Madara though because I think he is the only resurrection that adds more when he shows up and just use the Rinnegan to do it. it also means you can have more of an Orochimaru Vs. Hiruzen fight in part 1 and less of a Hiruzen vs. two zombies and Orochimaru is there laughing evilly and sometimes fighting as well fight. but there is a lot of things about part 2 Naruto I'd say were well-executed, like the Second Valley of the End fight, the fact that Sasuke's solution to the world is just a solution that Naruto tried earlier and it didn't work, that one of his final power ups involves making peace with the very nine tailed fox thats imprisoned within him, things like that.

    (that and if we really want to see how cool the previous kages and ninjas from long past were, perhaps maybe have a series set in the past then? where they can best show off how cool they are and tell the stories of the deeds that made them great in the first place. like just a tell story about the life of Hiruzen before current day and you'll probably get most of them.)
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  29. - Top - End - #1349
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean ultimately it's going to be subjective as well. The above Dragonball reference makes zero sense to me, every saga of Dragonball Z is excellent,
    Nah.

    The Buu saga is a clear step down in quality because Buu himself goes through too many transformations that completely change his character. And because it's important to the plot that each form of Buu is a completely different person (because that's what allows innocent Buu to remain so) there's no chain of action to animosity to consequence as there is between the forms of Frieza and Cell.

    Toriyama even tried to reinvent the series after Cell but the audience (and probably his editors) wouldn't have it, because they couldn't handle the idea of stepping down to a superpowered high school comedy. (Gohan as the main character was meant to stick). This wasn't a direction he even wanted to go, he didn't want to just keep doing escalations of power forever, but he couldn't pull a Jojo and make the generation and genre shift stick in the face of an audience that wanted more of what they already had.

  30. - Top - End - #1350
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    LaZodiac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Nah.

    The Buu saga is a clear step down in quality because Buu himself goes through too many transformations that completely change his character. And because it's important to the plot that each form of Buu is a completely different person (because that's what allows innocent Buu to remain so) there's no chain of action to animosity to consequence as there is between the forms of Frieza and Cell.

    Toriyama even tried to reinvent the series after Cell but the audience (and probably his editors) wouldn't have it, because they couldn't handle the idea of stepping down to a superpowered high school comedy. (Gohan as the main character was meant to stick). This wasn't a direction he even wanted to go, he didn't want to just keep doing escalations of power forever, but he couldn't pull a Jojo and make the generation and genre shift stick in the face of an audience that wanted more of what they already had.
    While it may not have been what he wanted, which sucks don't get me wrong, it was still very enjoyable. The Cell saga was great, and the Buu saga was really funny. While yes Buu has no "chain of action to animosity" there doesn't really need to be. That's not what Buu is.

    Also again this is all subjective, this is my opinion.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2021-11-10 at 11:46 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •