General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

[HandofShadows]

If it's your very first introduction to anime, then there are the classics: Fullmetal Alchemist (there are two series - I think most people prefer the 2009 version.)

Both are excellent series but are different and have different "goals". Just look at how Ed is drawn in the two series (and why the style is different). There are many people who go with Brotherhood and not the first series, myself being one of them.

[Pendulous]

I watched one episode of the show, just out of fascination that I could be so deep into this anime thing and yet still be told of a show that I have never heard of before in my life, and because I do like me some yuri.

You've got a stronger stomach than I do. It's actually been interesting trying to figure out why UzaMaid or Wataten register as funny to me, but the fondling that goes on in the first episode registers as outright repulsive.

I don't know what you have and haven't seen, but if you want good yuri without a chance of the creepiness, try Aoi Hana, Sakura Trick, Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, and of course Yuru Yuri. I also plan to watch Whispered Words and Maria Holic. Also one that I liked that seemed to be pretty hated is Aria the Scarlet Ammo AA. It doesn't require the parent show's knowledge to watch (I've heard it's even a prequel). Not fantastic by any means, but unique, and is the only legit yuri harem I can think of. Sadly, there aren't any yuri shows that even come close to having good endings. Really hoping for a season 2 of Bloom Into You, given it's popularity and its seemingly random end point for season 1. New Game, of course, isn't a romance but does have one confirmed lesbian

I also couldn't stand Wataten, but I don't really know why Kanamemo is tolerable over it. Maybe because Haruka isn't the main focus of the story, she's just there for what is supposed to be gag relief. The show is meant to be about Kana's emotional growth, and her dealing with being alone. And it doesn't do that terribly well. Like there are nice individual moments, but at the end, she seems like she's the same person she was in the beginning. But at least it does focus on that instead of...other things.

[Dragonus45]

Both are excellent series but are different and have different "goals". Just look at how Ed is drawn in the two series (and why the style is different). There are many people who go with Brotherhood and not the first series, myself being one of them.

Brotherhood is by no means bad, but it is a bit perfunctory and rushed in places where the first series took its time and did amazing character stuff that just got skipped in brotherhood. It’s why I generally recommend watching them in release order to people who I know will be to lazy to read the manga.

[LaZodiac]

Brotherhood is by no means bad, but it is a bit perfunctory and rushed in places where the first series took its time and did amazing character stuff that just got skipped in brotherhood. It’s why I generally recommend watching them in release order to people who I know will be to lazy to read the manga.

Brotherhood is superior because it doesn't cart Shou Tucker out to say "see you like this character huh he's still around. No he won't do anything interesting" every other episodes, and has exactly zero babies turned into portals to WW2 Germany.

[HandofShadows]

Brotherhood is by no means bad, but it is a bit perfunctory and rushed in places where the first series took its time and did amazing character stuff that just got skipped in brotherhood. It’s why I generally recommend watching them in release order to people who I know will be to lazy to read the manga.

One big reason a lot of the early stuff in Brotherhood was rushed was because it had already been gone over in the first series. Would have been bad to redo all of that again.

[LaZodiac]

One big reason a lot of the early stuff in Brotherhood was rushed was because it had already been gone over in the first series. Would have been bad to redo all of that again.

I'd also argue it wasn't rushed. That's just the manga's pacing for those scenes.

[Pendulous]

One big reason a lot of the early stuff in Brotherhood was rushed was because it had already been gone over in the first series. Would have been bad to redo all of that again.

A remake should not assume that one has seen the original. Fortunately, Fruits Basket wasn't bad enough to do that.

[ellenate]

I'd also argue it wasn't rushed. That's just the manga's pacing for those scenes.

brotherhood is definitely rushed in the beginning.

then it has this painfully slow/boring mid point.

then the ending (which was great).

either way, i still think both shows need each other desperately.

[LaZodiac]

brotherhood is definitely rushed in the beginning.

then it has this painfully slow/boring mid point.

then the ending (which was great).

either way, i still think both shows need each other desperately.

I personally disagree. The pacing feels basically identical to the manga, except for like one or two things they cut to make the pacing better (like Izumi's island having the weird murder man on it, which I barely even remember).

Ultimately, I do think both shows are probably fine... I just think the original FMA anime has some undeniable flaws that I think make it unwatchable.

[uncool]

As you can see, RCgothic, there's a lot of...spirited discussion on the topic.

Which, since they were aired a decade ago, is a pretty strong sign of how popular and memorable they were. Fullmetal Alchemist is good.

[John Cribati]

I watched Brotherhood before the original anime, and I prefer Brotherhood overall, but the original had a few things that it did better. I liked the concept of the villain group a little better, and it took its time with some things that just kind of get bulled past in Brotherhood. On the other hand, it kind of dips into "weird anime nonsense" later on, and adds some other stuff in for unnecessary drama. There's one villain who vastly overstays his welcome. Also the leader of the villain group wasnt all that appealing to me. Also the ebding didn't feel satisfying for me. Call me childish, but I like happy endings, and a lot of anime go the "bad ending, but I'm hopeful it will work out" route and that doesn't really gel with me.

And then on a mutant third hand of neutrality, some fillers were interesting, they added some backstory to a minor villain.

[Rysto]

I personally disagree. The pacing feels basically identical to the manga, except for like one or two things they cut to make the pacing better (like Izumi's island having the weird murder man on it, which I barely even remember).

Brotherhood having the same pacing as the manga doesn't mean that FMA 2003's pacing can't be better. I much preferred how the early episodes were paced in the 2003 anime myself.

[ellenate]

huh, if we were to argue which one was better, i'd have to go with the original.

Brotherhood couldn't get away with the things it did without '03 acting as a backbone.

[Spacewolf]

Having never seen 03 I can say that Brotherhood still holds up as one of the best I've seen even without. (Note Brotherhood is the only FMA thing I've seen so even without the manga it's still easily followable.)

[LaZodiac]

huh, if we were to argue which one was better, i'd have to go with the original.

Brotherhood couldn't get away with the things it did without '03 acting as a backbone.

Hard disagree, everyone I watched it with was completely blind and did not feel it's rushed.

Ultimately it's a personal thing, but I can't stand the original anime. It's fine near the start but it falls into the deep end once it hits non canon stuff.

[ellenate]

everyone

how often do you run these surveys you reference so often...

[Reddish Mage]

Hard disagree, everyone I watched it with was completely blind and did not feel it's rushed.

Ultimately it's a personal thing, but I can't stand the original anime. It's fine near the start but it falls into the deep end once it hits non canon stuff.

I didn’t think they did that bad of a job with the story in the original. Brotherhood goes in some pretty crazy directions itself. Its kinda of inherent in the subject matter that it’ll go right into the weird at some point.

Alchemy, as much as they say “its science,” is actually a slapdash combination of Western (and Eastern) mystical practices. The various traditions they weave together with a very few simple rules that are so vague and abstract that they might as well be called “the laws of magic” and summed up with “all magic has a price.”

Still, Brotherhood is better, hands down, except the first couple of episodes. The original does a better job (although admittedly Brotherhood doesn’t try) at telling the origin story and the early training, but lacks the panache with which Brotherhood does things.

[Dragonus45]

Having never seen 03 I can say that Brotherhood still holds up as one of the best I've seen even without. (Note Brotherhood is the only FMA thing I've seen so even without the manga it's still easily followable.)

Oh it’s certainly great, but I really don’t get how people are argue that large portions of it weren’t perfunctory glances at the plot in a rush to get out the manga plot stuff they didn’t get to in the first series.

[Rodin]

Oh it’s certainly great, but I really don’t get how people are argue that large portions of it weren’t perfunctory glances at the plot in a rush to get out the manga plot stuff they didn’t get to in the first series.

Two reasons, I'd say.

1)I have not read the manga, but my understanding from is that they didn't do a perfunctory glance at the plot compared to the manga. It's just that the '03 version ADDED a bunch of stuff, which was naturally dropped when they went to a more faithful version.

2) "Large portions" is a tough selling point when the plot has entirely diverged from the '03 version by episode 15 out of a total of 64, or around 25%. The exact point of total diversion is hard to pin down as there are significant differences fairly early on, but the last event that happens in Brotherhood that also happens in '03 is the assault on Greed's base, which happens in episode 33 of '03. Now take into account the pure filler episodes like "The other Elric brothers", the cat burglar one, the train heist, the dude that was trying to transmute his dead wife, and the Ed vs. Mustang episode. For that matter, Youswell is also pretty much filler that solely acts as an origin for Yoki. When you remove all of those, you're looking at around 20-25 episodes of content from the '03 version.

So yeah, it did cover some of the early stuff a bit fast. Once you remove the fat though, there's only a half dozen or so episodes in it. And that's without taking into account the anime only plot points they needed to cover!

[LaZodiac]

As Rodin says, it covered the early stuff fast because that's how fast it actually just goes in the manga. It only seems abrupt because, we we can see, there's a ton of filler, a lot of which muddies how tight the story is.

Also while this is a personal thing, I think Yoki's situation (which if I recall was the One Shot for FMA, manga wise) being regulated to an off screen adventure elevates the idea that this is just some random smucko who the Elrics beat the **** out of... and then he ends up this super important character who gets his own shining moment because no character in Brotherhood is wasted, and it's beautiful.

[Rodin]

As Rodin says, it covered the early stuff fast because that's how fast it actually just goes in the manga. It only seems abrupt because, we we can see, there's a ton of filler, a lot of which muddies how tight the story is.

Also while this is a personal thing, I think Yoki's situation (which if I recall was the One Shot for FMA, manga wise) being regulated to an off screen adventure elevates the idea that this is just some random smucko who the Elrics beat the **** out of... and then he ends up this super important character who gets his own shining moment because no character in Brotherhood is wasted, and it's beautiful.

I will say that his flashback scene becomes a lot funnier if you've seen the '03 version. The way it depicts the events from that episode is great, and the reference to the Armstrong sisters (who I don't think we really meet apart from this flashback) only works if you saw that one filler episode from the first anime.

If you only see Brotherhood you also miss the joke where Ed says "We really haven't met before", since that's a direct reference to Brotherhood skipping that episode.

[ellenate]

Two reasons, I'd say.

1)I have not read the manga, but my understanding from is that they didn't do a perfunctory glance at the plot compared to the manga. It's just that the '03 version ADDED a bunch of stuff, which was naturally dropped when they went to a more faithful version.

Yeah but that would just mean the manga was rushed too. lol

muddies how tight the story is

Claymore is a tight story, which I appreciate due to it mostly being portrayed as a mindless "beat 'em up".

For a more complex emotionally taxing story like the one full metal provides... it cheapens things.

which leads to my next point-

no character in Brotherhood is wasted, and it's beautiful.

The whole thing plays out like a disney movie.

I'm not really one of those fans that require a blood bath but some of those characters shouldn't have made it to the end.

brotherhood's story has almost zero gravity to it.

i could see why a person wouldn't want to dwell on emotional lows, with an overbearing atmosphere, but it's really lacking in brotherhood.


'03 goes overkill with it but at least it's there. (i should point out, i don't think there is a huge margin separating one show from being better than the other. I think they're pretty even and need each other but if i had to pick. '03 gets it.)

[Dragonus45]

Two reasons, I'd say.

1)I have not read the manga, but my understanding from is that they didn't do a perfunctory glance at the plot compared to the manga. It's just that the '03 version ADDED a bunch of stuff, which was naturally dropped when they went to a more faithful version.

2) "Large portions" is a tough selling point when the plot has entirely diverged from the '03 version by episode 15 out of a total of 64, or around 25%. The exact point of total diversion is hard to pin down as there are significant differences fairly early on, but the last event that happens in Brotherhood that also happens in '03 is the assault on Greed's base, which happens in episode 33 of '03. Now take into account the pure filler episodes like "The other Elric brothers", the cat burglar one, the train heist, the dude that was trying to transmute his dead wife, and the Ed vs. Mustang episode. For that matter, Youswell is also pretty much filler that solely acts as an origin for Yoki. When you remove all of those, you're looking at around 20-25 episodes of content from the '03 version.

So yeah, it did cover some of the early stuff a bit fast. Once you remove the fat though, there's only a half dozen or so episodes in it. And that's without taking into account the anime only plot points they needed to cover!

Yea that is thing adaptations do sometimes where they change up pacing and give scenes more room to breath then they got in a manga and give you more time to get attached to characters you are supposed to feel for when they die. Or potentially push past stuff that dragged in the mange, or do any number of things to make it flow better. 03 did that. And I'm not just talking about early stuff. Like, I'm not knocking brotherhood I'm just saying the 03 series does a much better job with character relationships and the like and is absolutely worth watching as an example of how to do an anime only plot adaptation well. But so many people skip it because Brotherhood exists and that's bad.

[Aotrs Commander]

I watched - on this very thread, complete with lengthy reports - both FMA series back to back just a few months ago. (You can just gp, like, back to page 31 of last thread and follow the whole oddessy along if you wanted...)

But in brief summation, the Official Bleabane View:

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'03 started off better but nose dived into absolute dreadful nonsense rubbish that damned my oft-spoken premise that just because it wasn't the original writer doesn't make it bad, and also did an excellent job of making the Ishbalans into a people of nut-jobs who that attacked folk for making cooking parts with magic and of whom Scar was the worst sort of monstrous zealot serial-killer for whom a long screaming eterity with his soul of fire is too good for and Winry (Best Character) becomes irrelevant half-way through.

The only thing it really achieve was accidently calibrating expectations that Brotherhood inverted SO HARD for the better.

Brotherhood whipped through the bits '03 had covered, which, having watched back-to-back, I was very pleased about, becuase I did not want to see another several episodes of waiting for Nina to be asploded and did an excellent job of making the Ishvalans into a people who were repressed and discriminated against by their conquersers and were ultimately just reasonable people manipulated into bloodshead and of whom Scar was misguided, at odds with his people, but ultimately came around to the good guy's side and it also has one of the best frickin' climaxes of any show I've ever seen and Winry remains awesome and involved the entire time. Also it, also has May.

(It also wins unliaterally for having Better Tanks, whereas '03 Did Not Do The Research, and while it may have gone for a slightly more WW1 than post WW2 like Brotherhood, make the assassihne mistake of painfully obviously not having visions slits, something whihc might pass everyone else's attention but immediately infuriates the one who designs armoured vehicles for an unliving.)

[LaZodiac]

Yeah but that would just mean the manga was rushed too. lol

Claymore is a tight story, which I appreciate due to it mostly being portrayed as a mindless "beat 'em up".

For a more complex emotionally taxing story like the one full metal provides... it cheapens things.

which leads to my next point-

The whole thing plays out like a disney movie.

I'm not really one of those fans that require a blood bath but some of those characters shouldn't have made it to the end.

brotherhood's story has almost zero gravity to it.

i could see why a person wouldn't want to dwell on emotional lows, with an overbearing atmosphere, but it's really lacking in brotherhood.

'03 goes overkill with it but at least it's there. (i should point out, i don't think there is a huge margin separating one show from being better than the other. I think they're pretty even and need each other but if i had to pick. '03 gets it.)

The pacing of the manga is a little slower at times just due to the medium it's in, and some early installment weirdness (like the random murder man on their teacher's island. That was cut and for good reason!)

Fullmetal Alchemist has a tight story that manages to be very well paced while also having a lot of moving parts in it. Also don't kid yourself, unless you're only watching the anime (which drops the ball at the end due to running out of manga) Claymores is a rather complex series.

If you can't see tension and gravity in what Brotherhood shows you, than I don't know what to tell you man. Buccaneer and Grandpa Ninja died and they went out like ****ing champions and it rules. Scores of soldiers died, and at least with the case of Briggs most of those were unique in look if not known to us. No one else needed to die, needless death is... well, needless. I really do question if you've seen it, because there's a lot of REALLY heavy moments in that show. It's just that it also includes the comedy so as to not overburden you with darkness. Which is one of Fullmetal Alchemist's strengths, in my opinion.

I have watched the original O3 anime and the way it mangles the dangling plot threads it picks up is just... embarrassing. Rose's rape baby being turned into a portal to WW2 germany (where fan favorites like Mayes Hughes get to be nazis!!!!!) by Dante (a person who does nothing of important for the entire series) is ludicrous, and the idea that The Truth is a gateway to the real world where alchemy is sucking up souls from to perform it's work is... a complete and total disaster of an idea that should have never made it past spec scripting.

[uncool]

Not to ignite more discourse, but guys - the whole conversation started because I thought someone likely hadn't seen any FMA, and might be up for recommendations. Spoilers might be appropriate.

[ellenate]

Not to ignite more discourse, but guys - the whole conversation started because I thought someone likely hadn't seen any FMA, and might be up for recommendations. Spoilers might be appropriate.

Come on, it's an anime discussion thread, and we're talking about a popular 10 year old anime... it should be assumed there would be such conversations flying around.

everything in this thread would have to be in spoilers.

that said... i feel people natural put story ruining tidbits in spoilers but general things are out in the open.

Also don't kid yourself, unless you're only watching the anime (which drops the ball at the end due to running out of manga) Claymores is a rather complex series.

i read the manga where the anime left off soo...

-unless there were a lot of deep complex themes before that, i'd have to stick by what i said.

The only thing i'd consider complex is the character development and even that was pretty shallow relegated only to the mover/shakers.

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there was the whole, twist near the end, but that felt more "convoluted" than this "deep complexity".

If you can't see tension and gravity in what Brotherhood shows you, than I don't know what to tell you man. Buccaneer and Grandpa Ninja died and they went out like ****ing champions and it rules.

Just the way you're describing character's deaths makes my point about there being no gravity...

For comparisons, i don't think i've ever heard anyone say "wasn't it cool when

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Jiraiya died in naruto".

Scores of soldiers died, and at least with the case of Briggs most of those were unique in look if not known to us. No one else needed to die, needless death is... well, needless.

Yeah, it was so tragic when solider #934513513 died.

there's a lot of REALLY heavy moments in that show. It's just that it also includes the comedy so as to not overburden you with darkness.

So in not too may words you admit there is undercutting...

The only thing it really achieve was accidently calibrating expectations that Brotherhood inverted SO HARD for the better.

Brotherhood whipped through the bits '03 had covered, which, having watched back-to-back, I was very pleased about, becuase I did not want to see another several episodes...

I feel this was true for just about everyone watching brotherhood and why i think the show is kind of overrated (when it comes to placing it in the top 10 ever).

[LaZodiac]

Just the way you're describing character's deaths makes my point about there being no gravity...

For comparisons, i don't think i've ever heard anyone say "wasn't it cool when

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Jiraiya died in naruto".

Yeah, it was so tragic when solider #934513513 died.

So in not too may words you admit there is undercutting...

I feel this was true for just about everyone watching brotherhood and why i think the show is kind of overrated (when it comes to placing it in the top 10 ever).

I don't think you understand what the word gravity means. It's ****ing tragic that Buccaneer and Ninja Grandpa died. It's genuinely soul crushing because Bucc was Miss Armstrong's right hand man, and Grandpa Ninja did everything he could to kill Bradley only to fail... but still succeed, in small ways, to ensure that even if Greedling can't, someone can. There's a TON of gravity here.

It's just also a REALLY good death. The sort of death that is sad, tragic, but also GOOD. They didn't die uselessly, they died with a purpose, and knowing that things will be okay.

No one says it's cool when Jiraiya died because his death sucked. He gets killed to show off how strong Nagato is, there's some sadness related to how Nagato grew up and how it relates to Jiraiya, and there's a degree of tragedy in that Naruto never actually LEARNS Jiraiya is dead. But from all that I recall, the actual death didn't really come off all that good. He was stabbed and dropped into an infinitesimally deep puddle to drown to death. It's just a sad, pointless death.

And that's not to say sad deaths are bad. Look at Ragnar in Vinland Saga. That death is tragic and sad as hell, but I'd say it's an awesome, enjoyable scene because of how well executed it is.

I mean, look. I feel bad when mooks die. It's an empathy thing, and FMA does a really good job at making us care about a lot of the mooks that die on screen, even though they're mooks. Every Briggs man who died helping shoot Father at the end is a hero.

I don't find it undercutting. I find it, personally, to be a contrast. It's not wallowing in despair for eternity, it's showing that life has it's comedy with it's tragedy.

And again, in my experience, none of the people I watched it with, all of whom were blind to the series, thought it was rushed. At best they thought it maybe dragged near the middle, which as you may recall it where there is the least amount of darkness breaking comedy. So, you know, a place that maybe could have used some. And even then that was like, two episodes or so.

[Drascin]

Personally, I watched the first FMA back when I was a teenager, and enjoyed it. Years later I found the manga, and never did manage to finish it. I think I kinda fell a bit after the whole Greed/Lin bit?

[Lord Raziere]

Uh, what? Jiraiya didn't die for nothing, he got back information to Konoha about Pain's abilities which is vital for defeating pain because no one knows how the Rinnegan worked at that point, and Naruto did learn that Jiraiya died, they had an entire thing with Iruka being brought back in to comfort and help him. the entire point of that arc was for Naruto experiencing the pain of loss just like Sasuke and others and not let it sway him from his ideals, because if he let revenge dictate his actions he would not be able to defeat the cycle of hatred.

when a repeated theme of when everyone else experiences another person die, they they go off the deep end most of the time. Gaara and Sasuke become crazy dangerous killers, Obito, Madara and Pain become ubermensch-wannabes obsessed with world domination through nukes or holodeck powered by nukes, as a means of solving a problem too large for one person to really do anything about. oh and the reason Ororchimaru became obsessed with immortality and obtaining all jutsu is because his parents died when he was young and he found a white snake near his parents grave and was inspired by the snake for symbolic reasons, Jiraiya's theory is that he did this to forget his painful memories of that, so Orochimaru is included in all the "people who gone crazy because someone close to them died." club.

while its worth noting that all the Hokages that successfully took the hat: Tsunade, Kakashi and Naruto are all people who were able to deal with loss in a way that they continue being sane healthy people.....well maybe relatively sane in Kakashi's case. so being able to accept loss without breaking seems to be a Hokage requirement. this makes sense, because the Hokage is a position were you order people to go to their deaths in war because your the military's leader. kind of hard to do that if your go crazy from even one incident involving death.

but yeah, Jiraiya didn't die for nothing. he died doing his job: reconnaissance, which y'know, was the actual primary job of ninjas stripped of all romanticism and mysticism surrounding them.