General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

[gooddragon1]

Kuwabara, that's an awful thing to say about someone. (0:00-0:04, basically the first 4 seconds of the video)

[Rynjin]

Kuwabara, that's an awful thing to say about someone. (0:00-0:04, basically the first 4 seconds of the video)

No manners. Exactly what you'd expect from a Megallica fan.

[SirMoogle]

Anyone excited for Iruma returning in the next few days? I love this slice-of-life/action series.

[Lemmy]

Anyone excited for Iruma returning in the next few days? I love this slice-of-life/action series.

I am.

When I started watching season 1, I thought it was dumb and boring... But I usually give a new anime a chance for at least 3 episodes... And I'm glad I did it this time too, because it turned to just be lighthearted fun all around, and one of my favorite anime of the season.

I even caught up with the manga... And the arc they tease in the post-credit scene of season 1 is awesome!

[gomipile]

I just realized that of all the demon lords I've seen in anime/manga/LN, I don't think I've seen one that isn't a deconstruction that is of the same type as the most common deconstructions I've seen.

That is, a demon lord whose plans threaten the world in a relatively traditional high fantasy serious, non-comedic series.

Even going back as far as Yu Yu Hakusho, I don't see that pattern, since Yu Yu Hakusho is in the underworld of our world, so it's more urban fantasy than high fantasy.

In recent works, the demon lords in the background of Goblin Slayer qualify, but that story is much newer than the majority of the deconstructions I've seen. And I suppose Goblin Slayer is a reconstruction of that sort of story anyway.

[Prime32]

It mostly comes from Dragon Quest. Also its 1989-1996 spinoff manga The Adventure of Dai, a new anime adaption of which is literally running right now (episode 29 aired the other day).

EDIT: While The Adventure of Dai may be "traditional", it's a very solid adventure series. It's rare for a manga to be fondly-remembered enough to get a new adaptation 25 years after it finished publication (and a high-quality adaptation, at that). What I'm saying is, you should check it out.

[gomipile]

It mostly comes from Dragon Quest. Also its 1989-1996 spinoff manga The Adventure of Dai, a new anime adaption of which is literally running right now (episode 29 aired the other day).

EDIT: While The Adventure of Dai may be "traditional", it's a very solid adventure series. It's rare for a manga to be fondly-remembered enough to get a new adaptation 25 years after it finished publication (and a high-quality adaptation, at that). What I'm saying is, you should check it out.

So, in the case of the comedy deconstructions at least, the phenomena might be more like Spaceballs than Mystery Men? I knew that the Dragon Quest series is very popular, but I admit I know very little about it other than what the slimes in some of its installments look like.

[Prime32]

So, in the case of the comedy deconstructions at least, the phenomena might be more like Spaceballs than Mystery Men? I knew that the Dragon Quest series is very popular, but I admit I know very little about it other than what the slimes in some of its installments look like.

Dragon Quest 1-3 invented the JRPG, basically. Some parts of the formula also grew out of attempts at explaining the weird ecosystems of early D&D.

I think some of the current depictions of "Maou" (especially the sympathetic ones) are following the lead of Maoyuu Maou Yuusha. And the protagonists' meeting was a direct riff on the early Dragon Quest games, down to the famous "Hero, join me and I'll grant you half the world!" speech.

Also, "Maou" is a really widely-used term. Ganondorf is referred to by that title, but so is Bowser.

[gomipile]

Dragon Quest 1-3 invented the JRPG, basically. Some parts of the formula also grew out of attempts at explaining the weird ecosystems of early D&D.

I think some of the current depictions of "Maou" (especially the sympathetic ones) are following the lead of Maoyuu Maou Yuusha. And the protagonists' meeting was a direct riff on the early Dragon Quest games, down to the famous "Hero, join me and I'll grant you half the world!" speech.

Also, "Maou" is a really widely-used term. Ganondorf is referred to by that title, but so is Bowser.

It looks like my confusion comes from a lack of knowledge about those sorts of games. I assumed that the idea was rooted in print or anime. I didn't think about games at all when I was making the question.

I've never owned a game console while it was relevant. The only console I've ever owned is a Sega Master System that I picked up about a decade after they stopped making games for it.

[uncool]

Spoiler: Eighty Six eps 1-2

Show

I just watched the first two episodes, and I've gotta ask people who've read the manga:

Does the social commentary get better?

For instance: there's a minor scene in episode 1 where Lena is tempted because Henrietta baked using real milk and eggs. But we also see that the 86ers not only have real eggs - they have real chickens, and aren't even very careful with them.

This serves a thematic purpose, implying that the Albans are artificial while the 86ers are "real", and that Lena is tempted by the "real" over the artificial, but it makes no sense sociologically - if eggs are such a rarity and substitutes both necessary and inferior, then the chickens would be a prize and taken away from the "pigs" who aren't even considered people to begin with.

This is just one small detail (though one that has two short, dedicated scenes), but it isn't the only one. Others include the way that Lena is merely mocked, rather than reprimanded, for her views on the 86ers, and the way the classroom scene plays out. And yes, I get that it's implied that her uncle is protecting her, but there are generally limits to that kind of protection - and publicly going directly against propaganda that is central to the war in front of an audience of soon-to-be high-ranking trainees is usually way, way, way beyond it, while iirc the scene implies that she has done this before.

So in total, it kinda reads as a hamfisted "Privileged person who has some empathy learns to join with the subaltern and rise against the imperialists, becoming one of the heroes while never really facing any of the hardships they suffer" series. Is that an accurate description of what comes later, or does it change? Or am I completely misreading what I've seen so far?

[Rater202]

So, I'm biting the bullet and trying to watch Fist of The North Star. It's pretty long it seems, gonna see how far in I can get before my eyes glaze over and I have to do something else for the sake of my own sanity

I know the basics: Nuclear War leads to a post apocalyptic desert setting, major martial arts focus, aesthetically very similar to Mad Max, flamboyant raiders everywhere, main character is basically a post-apocalyptic Bruce Lee, pressure points can do anything, "omae wa mou shindeiru" and miraculously managed to have lots of blood and gore in a way that doesn't feel gratuitous.

Is there anything in particular I need to watch out for?

[LaZodiac]

So, I'm biting the bullet and trying to watch Fist of The North Star. It's pretty long it seems, gonna see how far in I can get before my eyes glaze over and I have to do something else for the sake of my own sanity

I know the basics: Nuclear War leads to a post apocalyptic desert setting, major martial arts focus, aesthetically very similar to Mad Max, flamboyant raiders everywhere, main character is basically a post-apocalyptic Bruce Lee, pressure points can do anything, "omae wa mou shindeiru" and miraculously managed to have lots of blood and gore in a way that doesn't feel gratuitous.

Is there anything in particular I need to watch out for?

If you find yourself starting to actually get like, invested what is going on, watch out; you're gonna end up crying probably.

All things being equal Fist of the North Star's story is REALLY strong, and will hit you with emotions you did not expect.

And always remember; throwing dynamite is a martial art.

[Rater202]

And always remember; throwing dynamite is a martial art.

I mean obviously, what else would it be? It's too dangerous to be a sport and requires too much skill to do without killing yourself to be basic thuggery.

[Rynjin]

Also remember to turn your brain off, at least a little, because a lot of the things Kenshiro can do seem to come out of nowhere. Hokuto no Shinken directly translates to "Pull the solution out of your ass Technique", little known fact.

[Rater202]

Also remember to turn your brain off, at least a little, because a lot of the things Kenshiro can do seem to come out of nowhere. Hokuto no Shinken directly translates to "Pull the solution out of your ass Technique", little known fact.

I mean, I don't think anyone goes into this wondering what the science of making someone's head explode by poking them is.

The translation I'm watching has Ken flat out call it a spell when he's healing Lin's purely psychological trauma-induced hangups preventing her from talking.

[Rynjin]

I mean, I don't think anyone goes into this wondering what the science of making someone's head explode by poking them is.

The translation I'm watching has Ken flat out call it a spell when he's healing Lin's purely psychological trauma-induced hangups preventing her from talking.

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. The non-combat related stuff.

Not that the series is bad, far from it, but you don't watch HnK for the deep worldbuilding and consistent power system.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Eighty Six eps 1-2

Show

I just watched the first two episodes, and I've gotta ask people who've read the manga:

Does the social commentary get better?

For instance: there's a minor scene in episode 1 where Lena is tempted because Henrietta baked using real milk and eggs. But we also see that the 86ers not only have real eggs - they have real chickens, and aren't even very careful with them.

This serves a thematic purpose, implying that the Albans are artificial while the 86ers are "real", and that Lena is tempted by the "real" over the artificial, but it makes no sense sociologically - if eggs are such a rarity and substitutes both necessary and inferior, then the chickens would be a prize and taken away from the "pigs" who aren't even considered people to begin with.

This is just one small detail (though one that has two short, dedicated scenes), but it isn't the only one. Others include the way that Lena is merely mocked, rather than reprimanded, for her views on the 86ers, and the way the classroom scene plays out. And yes, I get that it's implied that her uncle is protecting her, but there are generally limits to that kind of protection - and publicly going directly against propaganda that is central to the war in front of an audience of soon-to-be high-ranking trainees is usually way, way, way beyond it, while iirc the scene implies that she has done this before.

So in total, it kinda reads as a hamfisted "Privileged person who has some empathy learns to join with the subaltern and rise against the imperialists, becoming one of the heroes while never really facing any of the hardships they suffer" series. Is that an accurate description of what comes later, or does it change? Or am I completely misreading what I've seen so far?

I don't have an answer, but I share the concern, and reading light novel reviews hasn't done much to alleviate it.

[Rater202]

...So, does the North star divine fist style of combat and assassination have a technique for regenerating shirt and jackets after they are disintegrated by your raw manliness?

Because otherwise, Kenshiro seems to luck into finding the exact same (expensive looking) outfit over and over again between episodes.

[Rynjin]

...So, does the North star divine fist style of combat and assassination have a technique for

The answer to any question starting with this string of words is "Yes.". =p

[Lord Raziere]

The answer to any question starting with this string of words is "Yes.". =p

He finds random bandits, then by poking the right pressure points, they explode into more clothes. all those outfits he's wearing? the remains of the foes he faces offscreen.

[LaZodiac]

...So, does the North star divine fist style of combat and assassination have a technique for regenerating shirt and jackets after they are disintegrated by your raw manliness?

Because otherwise, Kenshiro seems to luck into finding the exact same (expensive looking) outfit over and over again between episodes.

He spends like three hours collecting the scraps and sewing them back together. This guy can punch like 50 times per second, imagine what he can do with a needle and thread.

[GloatingSwine]

Kenshiro's talents have no end.

[Rater202]

So, two episodes in my thoughts are that.

1: Bat is kind of a ****head.

2: Lin's village needs someone whose job is to watch the children.

3: Nobody has any idea how difficult it is to grow rice in a fricking desert.

Like, seriously. Not even planting those seeds on the old man's grave so that his decaying body will provide nutrients are going to grow those rice seeds.

Actually, honestly, the village might have been better off if Kenshiro never got involved. The implication seems to be that Spades men slaughtered everyone sine there was no one else to plant the rice seeds, just Kensiro fulfilling a man's last request.

If Kenshiro hadn't gotten involved then the old man would dead and the rice would be lost but the village would be alive and able to try again.

[Spacewolf]

Anybody tried out Kyuukyoku Shinka ****a? Is it any good or just another generic Iseki with too long a title?

[Rater202]

Four episodes into Fist of the North Star, Rater pauses to wander...

How the hell did Heart get so fat? There's hardly any food.

Is he singlehandedly responsible for this famine? I thought it was the bombs but now I think it's Heart.

apparently, there's a spinoff manga exploring his backstory but my source tell me it hasn't been confirmed as canon.

Also, the morbidly obese giant who seems to be made of fricking rubber commenting on the scarred and muscular but otherwise physically normal guy's "unusual body" says a lot about Heart's lack of self-awareness.

[Kitten Champion]

Anybody tried out Kyuukyoku Shinka ****a? Is it any good or just another generic Iseki with too long a title?

It's not an Isekai really, the main character is just playing a game albeit a weird one. Though I have seen the term used for other works premised on full immersion VR games - like Bofuri - by some, so depends on your definition.

The basic joke is that the straight-man protagonist is tricked into buying a mostly-dead, needlessly realistic VRMMORPG where everything in the game subverts your expectations for how anyone would rationally make a game. That and there are other PCs who are still playing this weird old crappy game for comedically eccentric reasons.

It kind of feels like a Gintama gag spread out into a series, I guess. Also kind of a subversion of those aforementioned VRMMORPG-styled fiction where the writer invariably invents the ideal game they'd personally love to play if the technology to make it ever became possible, this is Takeshi's Challenge made with that same technology.

[uncool]

I don't have an answer, but I share the concern, and reading light novel reviews hasn't done much to alleviate it.

I've watched 2 more episodes, and:

Spoiler: Episode 4

Show

I think the sociology improved slightly on the 86 side through the end of episode 3, with a slightly better understanding of what - and just how much - the Republic was depriving the 86ers of. On the other hand, episode 4 walks it back, and I'm kinda on the fence about whether it walked it back too much. Overall, I think it slightly improved - probably not enough to say that it does a good job, but enough to show that it's trying to make a reasonably coherent world.

On a semi-related note: if the numbers in episode 4 are taken as average - 561 deaths of people in Undertaker's squadrons over 5 years - then that's about 0.3 deaths in the squadron per day. If we assume the squadron size is about 20, as we see in the show (23 on the wiki), that should mean a life expectancy of about 2 months. I'm not sure I entirely believe the show accurately portrays conditions where each person is likely to die within 2 months, or where it's expected that someone will die every 3 days or so.

And on a related note: the show, to my recollection, has yet to explain why the 86ers follow orders at all. I think it may have to do with the para-RAID setup, as that's literally the only interaction that I think we've seen between central command and the 86ers. The lack of enforcement mechanism is kinda glaring, since its absence is kinda what permits the seemingly carefree - outside of battle - life the 86ers have.

[Mechalich]

I've watched 2 more episodes, and:

Spoiler: Episode 4

Show

On a semi-related note: if the numbers in episode 4 are taken as average - 561 deaths of people in Undertaker's squadrons over 5 years - then that's about 0.3 deaths in the squadron per day. If we assume the squadron size is about 20, as we see in the show (23 on the wiki), that should mean a life expectancy of about 2 months. I'm not sure I entirely believe the show accurately portrays conditions where each person is likely to die within 2 months, or where it's expected that someone will die every 3 days or so.

Regrettably, in speculative fiction the default assumption is that the author did not do the math. Numbers provided almost never add up with an accurate portrayal of events.

[Kitten Champion]

I've watched 2 more episodes, and:

Spoiler: Episode 4

Show

And on a related note: the show, to my recollection, has yet to explain why the 86ers follow orders at all. I think it may have to do with the para-RAID setup, as that's literally the only interaction that I think we've seen between central command and the 86ers. The lack of enforcement mechanism is kinda glaring, since its absence is kinda what permits the seemingly carefree - outside of battle - life the 86ers have.

They don't need a direct enforcement mechanism, they've set up the system so they can interact with them as little as possible while maintaining their strict asymmetric power-dynamic. The Republic controls their supply chain, logistics. communication, and any long-range reconnaissance. The 86ers have no reasonable alternative means of fighting a war beyond relying on the resources provided to them, and the whole military industrial complex is controlled by their oppressors.

[uncool]

Regrettably, in speculative fiction the default assumption is that the author did not do the math. Numbers provided almost never add up with an accurate portrayal of events.

Spoiler

Show

Yeah - I mainly commented on it because 1) the writers put enough effort into it to keep it consistent between episodes (by having the box of tags look like it has a few hundred tags), and 2) the numbers are so easily calculated. For most spec fic I've seen, it takes a little more work or a little more knowledge of the world to see the inconsistency - e.g. knowing about price fluctuations and arbitrage to see the problems with currency conversion in Harry Potter.

They don't need a direct enforcement mechanism, they've set up the system so they can interact with them as little as possible while maintaining their strict asymmetric power-dynamic. The Republic controls their supply chain, logistics. communication, and any long-range reconnaissance. The 86ers have no reasonable alternative means of fighting a war beyond relying on the resources provided to them, and the whole military industrial complex is controlled by their oppressors.

Spoiler

Show

1) The control the Republic has on those things is extraordinarily loose. The only supply chain the Republic controls is for the mechs, and barely at that, as the 86ers themselves are doing the repairs; the only logistics we see the Republic control is for the para-RAID, which seems to have minimal impact in battle, and we can already see that their reconnaissance is worse than what the 86ers have, given that the 86ers seem to always already be in position (and yes, I know that that's a plot point that's going to come up, but it's still part of the story). Not only that, but the Republic seems to have very little interest in keeping that advantage in reconnaissance, given that Lena had to go searching through the (badly kept) archives to find basic topographical maps of the surrounding area. The Republic explicitly does not control the essentials - housing, food, and water are all supplied by the 86ers themselves, in apparent complete freedom.

2) Even if the Republic did have that kind of control, that would set up a kind of working-relationship oppression between the Republic and the 86ers, not the kind of full dehumanization the series shows. A relationship based on the fact that yes, the Albans could punish the 86ers, but only at severe cost to themselves - so that punishment is generally rare, symbolic, and only when it would be somewhat accepted by the 86ers. That's not to say that the punishment would need to be fair, or that discrimination and one-sidedness of the punishments wouldn't be noticed by the 86ers, but that it wouldn't be the kind of complete dehumanization we see. The Republic can't afford to be so cruel as to make the 86ers decide to, say, let a Legion attack through, or simply decide to break off communication and go on the run.