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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Dullyanna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    From what I can tell, Warlocks really seem to be the way to go here. Fluff wise, try and get the archivist to determine if any have fey/demon blood; also, see if there are any nearby forest spirits that are pissed enough to lend power to the villagers, so they can combat the bastardly demons and zombies that are killing all the wee forest friends.
    Generic Expendable Grunt of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment (SHELA)

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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Running away while saving many:
    Train all of them for long enough that they become lvl1 clerics.
    While doing that create an infinite use item of sleep.
    In the middle of the night kidnap all their children and young teenagers.
    Load them all into any carts/wagons in the village and smash the remainder (if anyone wakes up then Sleep them).
    Steal any valuable lightwieght items.
    Hitch all the horses to the wagons and use a wand of Mount if there aren't enough.
    Nail a message somewhere informing the villagers where you are taking their children (leave a more subtle clue if you can but be sure they can find it).
    Ride to the next village in the path of the Kythons and kidnap their kids+belongings too, leaving a clue as to where you shall go next.
    Ride to the next village (always make sure it's at night and all the children have been put to sleep with your infinite use item).
    If you see anyone nearby just Sleep and untie the kiddies and say that as the famous lawful goodies you are taking these children to safety and away from the Kyton horde.
    Once you arrive at the outskirts of a large and well defended town wait for the persuing mob to get into view (you've got a better spot check and so can see them before they see you).
    Dump the kids in the middle of the town square with the valuable items then leave and put on a disguise.
    Enter the city again as new adventurers/mercenaries.

    The results:
    +The clerics easily protected the mob as they raced through zombie territory (and got a few servants for themselves).
    +You now have a large(r) army to defend a more easily defended city from the Krytons (they will have almost certainly gained a level or two as well).
    +You have saved not only more than half the people from that town but also many more from other towns and all the kids.
    -You have lost your good reputation and have to take on a new identity (as the stupid commoners will probably blame you for the deaths of any who got left behind/didn't join the mob).
    -They might see through it and realise that their kids are perfectly safe and don't persue you (you still save many though).

    What do you think? Would it work?

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Another update. Our DM is going to let us make wands with reduced cost, and reduced charges. This is good, it means we can equip twice as many snipers with 25 charge wands instead of 50. If we decide to go that route, we're still in discussion.

    Here's our current plan.

    Preperation
    Our archivist is going to spend the week scribing useful divine scrolls (magic vestments, sound burst (! :D). The archivist is also our secret weapon, with the cleric as a backup to that. Bestow Curse baby. Our DM--- err, the KYTHONS won't see it coming. Hit the slaymaster (BEFOE he puts up spell resistance) with a curse that makes him lose half of his turns, 50% change of doing nothing all the way, permanent duration. If we can get off more bestow curses, they'll go on the adults. The broodlings should get stomped, the juveniles will be tough but killeable... if we can cut the effectiveness of the adults by 50-25% and turn the slaymaster into a question mark, we might actually have a freaking chance of surviving this.
    Kythons aren't stupid, they're as intelligent (or better) than a human. Broodlings are dumb but cunning. If we can down the slaymaster and enough adults, they'll probably turn tail, either back to their caves, or just dispersed.

    We'll do the math at the table, but our wizard is going to scribe a bunch of scrolls, and of course, craft wands. Mostly of lesser sonic orb, but also of other spells that will be handy en masse. Mage armor, protection from evil, scrolls of magic weapon, and reduce person. Reduce person, for our snipers . +2 Dex, Attack, and AC. Effectivelly a +3 to hit, and a bonus to avoid getting slashed if they do wind up face to face with something before they turn tail and run.
    He's going to craft the wands as level one. They'll only do 1d6 damage, but he can churn more of them out. We figure a dozen snipers hitting all over is better than 3 snipers hitting harder.
    Wands of summon monster 1. We're going to spam celestial badgers onto the field. We have no delusions, the badgers are there to die while slowing down kythons. We're comfortable with that, and since summoned monsters just go to their home plane anyway, we like to think they'll be okay with it too.
    Web, will also be cast in the streets to slow the suckers down.
    Scrolls of cats grace will go to boost our snipers a little more.
    Displacement on the best frontliners (us) (50% miss chance please).
    And fly, for the big guns (the three pure casters).

    We have stone, and a good amount of it. Our cleric is going to spend the week Stone Shaping it into what we need. He can manipulate 54 cubic feet of stone per day. Which is a LOT of freaking stone, probably exhaust our supplies after a day or two at the most.
    We're going to avoid guerilla warfare (against our cunning, stealthy, blindsight foes? screw it, we're not going to go into the shadows with THEM )
    Instead, we're going to jump straight to the last stand. Three buildings, the schoolhouse and the two buildings in front of it. (Basically, picture a dead end road. The schoolhouse is the dead end, with two buildings facing each other in a sorta-triangle. 40 feet between the faces of the buildings, which will become relevant.
    The buildings are going to be the ones we focus all our energy on. Arcane locks, HEAVY fortification, insane levels of rubble and stony hazardous terrain ALL behind the three of them. They will literally be reinforced with stone, with stone walls connecting the gaps, stone doors, stone covered windows.... we're basically going to make it unrealistic for anything to come in in any direction but the front. They might come OVER, but certainly won't get in THROUGH. We hope, anyway. But even if they get through the stone, there's still arcane-locked doors in their way... basically way too much trouble to come in the back way.

    So now we're fighting kythons in a stone bottleneck? What to do from here.

    The roofs and rear are going to have a few glyphs of warding. Our wizard doesn't know explosive runes at the moment, so that's out. He will set some alarms in the back, so we know if they're trying to get in that way.
    The street and areas in front of us, same thing. Glyphs of warding, set to sound-burst or inflict-wounds. That'll at least thin them out, and possibly stun some of them. The less we go toe to toe with at once, the better.

    We've also got a few traps and tricks for the frontal assault, which we're hoping to snag adult kythons with. The slaymaster will probably be too smart to fall for much, but we're going to put spiked pillars up ready to fall forwards, sideways, and wherever else we can position them. There's a chance our DM will even use his infamous line "Forget the math, that just killed whatever it hit".
    Spiked trenches will be set up, mainly to slow them down. The last spiked trench will be facing backwards. We're prepared to bullrush them into it if we get the chance.

    So who's "we"?

    The Army

    Or should that read "The victims?"

    No matter. We're in this now.

    The buildings on either side of the street are going to be our BATTERIES. People who weren't good for much else are going to become dragon shamans. They don't need high stats, they just need to show up. Marshals will be trained the same way. 2nd level marshals don't actually NEED charisma, their major aura functions without it (based on level). Marshal major auras are wonderful things like damage reduction, damage boosts, melee and ranged boosts, and AC boosts. And save boosts. Really, they just freaking boost.
    We're going to fluff it that they're watching the war intently and shouting out warnings and good info. We figure, 24 people will become marshals and dragon shaman (5 marshals to every 3 dragon shaman, set up in redundant circles in all three buildings at the windows in a pattern which will overlap the carnage zone, so the frontliners will get 5 marshal aura boosts and 3 dragon shaman boosts regardless. HOPEFULLY we can keep things from falling apart, the redunant boosts will help, the dragon shaman healing will help keep everyone up and moving) That'll give us: Damage reduction 1/-, +1 to attack in melee AND ranged, +1 AC, +1 Damage from the marshals, and another +1 melee damage, another DR 1/magic, and fast healing 1 (up to half your hitpoints max) from the dragon shamans.
    The dragon shaman will ALSO be warlocks. We're going to try to fluff it as draconic powers manifesting in bizzarre ways. "They say everyone has a little dragon blood in them". That will help us survive, and keep the villagers from killing each other afterwards. The dragon shaman/warlocks (1/1) will also be reduced . That extra +2 to attack (+2 Dex, +1 attack) means something. They don't need strength anyway, and they'll be harder to hit if it comes up.
    Each 8-man team of aura boosters will also have two meat shields with two handed weapons. They will also have a weak healer (better than nothing) who will have the main goal of stabilizing anyone before they die. The dragon shaman healing auras will then pick them back up from the negatives.

    That leaves us 14 people, one of which is Miss Beverly the schoolmarm. +1 rapier, high int, weapon focus with it? We were going to make her a swashbuckler, but 2nd level swashbucklers don't get the int to damage, so it's a waste. She's going to become a duskblade. +2 BAB, +1 rapier, +1 focus, +1 magic weapon... She won't be on the REAL frontline, but she's a backup frontliner who can cast true strike a few times.

    13 people left. Warlocks, battle sorcerers with sonic orb wands, and clerics with scrolls of useful cleric stuff and some big-gun healing for emergencies. Sniping out of barricaded windows ideally. We'll see if we can spare a few people to dedicate themselves to reinforcing barricades should they start to fall. We also want to stick at least one dedicated healer and one dragon shaman with a healing aura in the schoolhouse with the survivors, as an emergency heal-bot area.

    We're still going through stuff looking for other bright ideas, but that's the battle strategy as it stands.

    The Cleric, Archivist, and Wizard are all going to be flying. 60 foot move speed, able to get out of harms way. If we can crunch the numbers, there'll be scrolls of fly for me, the paladin, and the dragon shaman as well.

    The wizard will float above us dropping sonic-bombs and being our eye-in-the-sky. He's also going to be saddles with the responsibility of keeping the magic flowing with his scrolls and wands (those he didn't hand off to the trainees).
    The archivist is going to get everyone a +1 to attack and saves against undead AND abberations for the combat. MAYBE a +2, if the rolls are well. The archivist will also be flying, with the intention of dropping weak heal-bombs and keeping his eyes peeled for the slaymaster. When he sees him, he's going to let the cleric know, and the two of them are going to fly-by attack him with some bestow curses. If the intiative works out in our favor, they can both get him BEFORE he throws up his magical defenses, which would be sweet. 50% chance of inaction AND -4 to attacks if they both curse him.
    There'll be scrolls of sound burst and spiritual weapon for any incorporeal kythons with phase organs (hopefully there won't be more than one ).
    The cleric and archivist both CAN drop heal-bombs, but we have some wands of cure light wounds, and hopefully they'll be able to use their spell slots for other useful things. The cleric will also have turn-undead uses, which we will need.
    The Paladin is going to be buffed up as high as we can and keep his mount in reserve, save his smites for when he thinks they'll do some good, and have some lay-on-hands for stabilizing healing. His AC will be
    The dragon shaman is going to keep their initiate aura up as we go into things, so we'll ALL have +2 to initiative. After the combat starts, they'll either get us +2 damage, DR 2/magic, or fast healing 2 (half hitpoint max). It won't stack with the other dragon shamans, but if we need an extra edge in one area, they can make it so. They're a copper dragon totem too, so they can spider-climb at will and give us acid resistance 10 if needed. Since a kython might have an acid-spitter weapon, that could come in handy. They can also use a 3d6 line of acid breath weapon (usless against kythons) and have 18 healing 'lay on hands' of their own.

    I'll be sneak attacking with a sonic orb wand . I've got enough UMD to not really worry about it, and with a sneak I'll be doing 4d6 sonic damage. With some good rolls and good positioning (easier to do if I'm flying at 60 feet movement), I'll be able to do some decent damage.
    I'll have real weapons of course, but I'll be trying to hit their Touch AC for a reason, so wand of sonic it is.

    We, uh. might. Uh, yeah, we're screwed.

    Oh, we'll also have Delay Poison cast on us before battle, so we won't have to worry about THAT. we just have to worry about, you know, everything else.

    And they'll get back up after we kill them

    Things have been returning as 1/2 and 1 challenge rating pushovers, and our wizard actually has a wand with a few fireball charges for big groups of undead... I still worry about that slaymaster getting back up though. That's a big zombie.

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Korias's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Go for the overkill with the Slaymaster. Think about it this way: If there's nothing left of the Slaymaster, there cant be a zombie. Obliterate it, and your made. Idea: Disintigration.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SilverClawShift's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSteelRat View Post
    What this does mean though is you need to dig a trench around buildings
    GOOD!

    Yeah, I'll mention that. Dig trenches around the rear, encase everything in stone.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Without knowing the Kython numbers I give you a 30% chance of survival. I'd suggest you re-go through the thread for ideas again. I think you can even the odds to 50-50 at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Fanfiction R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn!

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    It sounds like it'll be a great session! I hope we get to hear the full report.
    Blunder's Law: Just because it can be fixed doesn't mean it's not broken.

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Oh Man, it's just like the last chapter in 'World War Z'... Hmm...

    If you don't want to know how the Humans win in that book, don't read below:

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    'The Box'. It's your only hope.

    The idea is simple. Create a line of riflemen (in this case, Warlocks w/Eldrich Spear). Place them on an elevated platform (so they're out of reach of a normal charge, and the bad guys will have to climb to get to them). Draw a line in the snow at the 300' marker, all around the . As soon as any bad guy crosses that line, he gets TAKEN DOWN with EXTREME PREJUDICE.

    You'll want to build your platform away from and in front of your village, and remove every shrub, every tree, every possible source of cover or distraction to line of sight. Outside the 300' line, feel free to dig trenches, create booby-traps, drop bombs, explode some runes, etc, but inside you'll just want to have an absolutely clear line of sight for your Warlocks. Caltrops are fine, as they do not block line of sight and act to slow speed, thus enabling more shots to be taken by the snipers.

    As to the construction of your platform; some elementary cover (wooden battlements) might come in handy, in case any of them have crossbows or other ranged weapons, but your best asset by far is simply range and the number of individuals firing at the oncoming horde simultaneously.

    You have (by my count) 47 villagers capable of becoming Warlocks. That means you will have every round 47 300' 1d8 (let's call it 5 damage) shots with about a 50% hit percentage. This means you can expect to drop a dozen broodlings every round just from a single volley if you tell people to fire in groups of 3/4 at individual targets. You could also expect to drop 2-3 juveniles with the same amount of firepower, or even 1.5-2 adults (1 adult plus some broodlings). With 30 movement, you can expect to have 3 rounds minimum to fire at these guys if they're running full out at you, double that if you litter the ground with caltrops, even more if they're stopping to shoot (tell the villagers to target ones with weapons FIRST, of course), plus any time it'd take for these guys to climb up and attack you (I'd recommend thoroughly greasing the sides of the platforms. That's an extra 3+rounds of shooting before any villager is in any danger of being meleed).

    Let's recap the numbers - 47 shooters, 300' line, caltrops, 40' raised platform with greased sides:

    Minimum rounds to melee contact: 7-8
    Average hitting damage per round of shooting (assuming 50% accuracy): 105.75
    Average damage over 7 rounds: 740.25
    Average # Broodlings killed over 7 rounds: 67.3
    Average # Juveniles killed: 18.1
    Average # Adults killed: 9.9

    That is the potential damage just to the first wave alone. After they go down, subsequent waves will face identical slaughter, and there is no way the villagers will not kill one of these things with 8 rounds of concentrated shooting. And, of course, if one or two shooters multi-class into Bards/Marshals, the team hit percentages will go up exponentially and make the slaughter all the more colorful.

    You can TOTALLY win this one. I didn't even mention the kinds of things your Big Guns could be doing during all this time, raining death and pain all along the lines of baddies.

    Thoughts?

  9. - Top - End - #129

    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, use fire!

    Mundane fire has little chance of killing kythons. It will also be unlikely to kill a zombie in a single round. Instead, what you risk, is burning all your mooks alive, destroying your stocked goods, and basically turning everything into a BBQ for the kythons.


    Good set up; just make sure you've got some way to survive for a couple days. What happens when the kythons retreat?

    I also recommend distributing scrolls of extended Rope Trick to each strike team. Once the fireworks begin, have one of them pop it with UMD, or right before (they'll last 12 hours extendend).

    This way, they have an inaccessible extradimensional space to retreat to, heal up, and await rescue, in case their position is overrun. You may think about putting alarms at the strike team sites so you know when a unit has kython on them.

    Also note that your sneak attack only has a range of 30 feet.

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default What about reinforcements?

    I think it might be a good idea to at least snipe them a little as they make their way into the town. Set up a few groups of warlocks and marshals on top of buildings and block off the way up. When the monsters begin looking for a way, use wood planks as bridges and begin working your way back to the schoolhouse. This should allow you to kill or at least injure a couple of the stronger ones (as long as you focus on them more), as long as they don't come after you incorporally or with ranged weapons. If they pull that off, run as fast as you can, or you're going to die. Set up the main battle in the area you have planned, but try to damage them beforehand as well.

    And look for backup if possible. There are no towns nearby to join you? A couple extra people would greatly increase your chances.
    Last edited by shaddy_24; 2007-10-08 at 11:04 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    blue chicken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Hmmm...hey, it'll work, if you ask me. Just let me get a few things straight.

    Basically, your plan is to run them into a kill-zone with you fighting from an elevated position that they can't approach from the back? For my mechanical purposes, I'm picturing this three-building cluster as a rectangle with one of the short sides open...cram enemies inside, melt them with your ranged attackers, yes? I like your ideas of just making the buildings inaccessible with stone. Thick enough walls and enough Arcane Lock and you should be all right...except for that whole phasing thing. Just make sure you figure a way to keep your OWN access into them before the attack. But you're smart enough to think of that.

    ...if that's right...I think it's a pretty good idea. As one of the earlier posters said, though, you should maybe try to incorporate a few more of the mundane defenses into the plan if you can.


    My only additional thoughts: extending the killzone for advanced range. What invocation are you giving your warlocks? Just use stone shape and give yourself an alley they have to run down to get into your box. Line it with caltrops, of course. Lots of caltrops. That way you get extra rounds of ouch while you're shooting at them.

    Don't forget to have grease ready to cast on the walls of your buildings to repel climbers...or even render up some lard in cauldrons at the top and tip them over as the attack starts. That should work too.

    Have NETS at the top to drop. Even just fishing nets. Can't hurt.

    And finally...the improvisation. Sure, my oil fire ideas kind of fail what with the baddies' energy resistances...but they're not immune to shards of metal, are they?

    Your easiest, cheapest mass destruction idea is to fill small casks of oil with caltrops or other metal shards and have them at the bottom ready to go off. If you wanted, you could use flasks, gluing/wrapping caltrops all over the outside surface and then lighting/throwing the bombs. I don't know how your DM would calculate damage for one of those. Maybe like the Psionic power Storm of Crystals? It's a thought.

    Your concept is sound; just don't forget to buff with more strategic details. EASY, CHEAP strategic details that will keep you ALIVE.
    Improbability drive activated. The clown has been engaged.

    And a huge thanks to Diabhan for the AWESOME avatar. Lizardfolk rogue FTW!

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    I feel that many of you (including you, Silver) are too focused on healing; i don't know exactly how much damage we're looking at per Kython (some of us can't go out and buy supplements willy-nilly [although the BOVD is certainly on my list]), but it seems like any of your Doritoes hit by a kython is basically pāte de paysan mort. I feel you'd be better served spending your time creating combat-based and defense-based characters and items than healing ones; I'll reiterate my thought that magic-user/expert (trapmaking, blacksmithing) classes will serve you well here, especially if you create them from the non-combatants.

    Bestow Curse? 'Gasmic thinking. Unfortunately, it's a touch-range spell. How do you think you're going to get close enough to slam him with a curse without being +17-to-attacked to death? I know wizards have it as a class spell, but does yours? If he does (and has spectral hand), have HIM deliver the curses from on high; if not, does an archivist (pardon my ignorance, but I don't know much beyond the core rulebooks and a few specialty supplements) get UMD? If he does, get a Dorito wizard to scribe him a scroll of Spectral Hand and let him do it. A couple Spectral Hands and three curses later, and your Slaymaster is a minus-6-to-strength-fifty-percet-lose-turn-chance-minus-4-penalty-to-rollsMaster. Failing that, let the Rogue have two or three scrolls of Spectral Hand and three or four(Actually, let's make it a few more; if he can curse the Slaymaster with the turn-loss curse, and then keeps getting lucky, he could reduce its physical stats to ones. Spectral Hand lasts for a minute/level.) scrolls of Bestow Curse and give him the fly spell, and you've got a well-dodging, flying, curse machine. Adittionally, having their leader turned to a catatonic pile of flesh could be bad for Kython morale; they are intelligent, so let's use it against them.
    "I meant," said Iplsore bitterly, "what is there in this world that makes living worthwhile?"
    Death thought about it.
    "CATS," he said eventually, "CATS ARE NICE."

    Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Flask of Curses with a wire attached to it and being manipulated by a Mage Hand.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#flaskofCurses

    Open and Close over the enemy repeatedly to curse them all into sucktown!

    Or if your DM rules it is one use, make multiples.


    It is a lot faster than one at a time with Spectral Hand and won't miss (just hope their Will saves suck).
    Last edited by Machete; 2007-10-09 at 12:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Fanfiction R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn!

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    That MIGHT be a good idea, were it not for the fact that a flask of curses is CL 7th, and the 'curse' it contains is just a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. I doubt they'd even stack.

    Edit: Aditionally, it says 'when first unstoppered'. I take that to mean that it's a one-use-only item.
    Last edited by SleepingOrange; 2007-10-09 at 12:18 AM.
    "I meant," said Iplsore bitterly, "what is there in this world that makes living worthwhile?"
    Death thought about it.
    "CATS," he said eventually, "CATS ARE NICE."

    Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    CL7 Arrgh, I missed that. Maybe with some negotiation though a similiar item could be crafted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Fanfiction R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn! Wgah'nagl fhtagn!

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    A little late back in but:

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsysservant View Post
    Swarms are very bad ideas for this battle. Since the casters have no control over the creatures and the duration lasts for concentration+2, a sadistic DM (this is a horror campaign after all) will wipe out half your forces before they can dissmiss the swarm. Plus, there is no guarantee that multiple swarms won't just attack each other. While it would be good to have a warlock 1/rogue 1 sneak invisibly to the kythons well before they get near the village, and sic multiple swarms on them to weaken them, using the two round overlap, it would be very unwise to have those swarms near the villagers as a whole.

    Actually that is a good idea. Have a few of invisible warlocks wait at the kython nest for them to emerge and have them tail the kythons with multiple swarms. Once the kythons actually show up, they would be significantly weakened, especially by the bleeding as they unlikely to be near healing, or delayed by the hunt for the invisible warlock/rogues.

    Edit: That reminds me, how far away is the kython nest? If the distance is significant, the warlocks could just hit them using the above tactic at the midway point. Since they are pretty much guarenteed to lose 1 hp per round+the actual damage from the swarm, that could wipe out the army right there.
    Ah, but, the invocation only lasts for concentration. Like I said before, assuming the swarm acts on the casters turn (like most summoned creatures I believe), then you can dismiss it (free action to cease concentration) and recast it farther away if needed. The scroll swarms could be kept farther away, as they're more for free ranging damage than point defense. And for both of these, I've been assuming that there will always be more enemies. It's far from perfect, but I think it's better than relying on an expensive spell with limited castings.

    Know what I just noticed? Smoke inhalation damage from forest fires. When in doubt, set the village on fire and choke em' to death.

    Also: I agree, waay to focused on healing. Even against a d12 hit die any hit from a Kython is just about a 1 hit kill. Even ignoring the poison, the juveniles hit pretty hard.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2007-10-09 at 12:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Maybe this is just totally stupid of me, but...

    Maybe slapping the Slaymaster with Calm Emotions and trying to negotiate a truce is possible. If he no longer is quite so bloodthristy, he may be smart enough to realize that the zombies need to be killed too.

    I am not familiar with Kythons beyond passing, so I don't know if they could be placated into passing the village up like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Werebear View Post
    Maybe this is just totally stupid of me, but...

    Maybe slapping the Slaymaster with Calm Emotions and trying to negotiate a truce is possible. If he no longer is quite so bloodthristy, he may be smart enough to realize that the zombies need to be killed too.

    I am not familiar with Kythons beyond passing, so I don't know if they could be placated into passing the village up like that.
    Kythons only speak a warped version of Infernal and the only do so with each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    A little late back in but:


    Ah, but, the invocation only lasts for concentration. Like I said before, assuming the swarm acts on the casters turn (like most summoned creatures I believe), then you can dismiss it (free action to cease concentration) and recast it farther away if needed. The scroll swarms could be kept farther away, as they're more for free ranging damage than point defense. And for both of these, I've been assuming that there will always be more enemies. It's far from perfect, but I think it's better than relying on an expensive spell with limited castings.

    Know what I just noticed? Smoke inhalation damage from forest fires. When in doubt, set the village on fire and choke em' to death.

    Also: I agree, waay to focused on healing. Even against a d12 hit die any hit from a Kython is just about a 1 hit kill. Even ignoring the poison, the juveniles hit pretty hard.
    Yeah, missed that. Since it is the case, having warlocks summon swarms to start the bleeding of the kythons, then running, would be good. No kython has heal as a class skill, so the best they can muster would be an untrained wis. check, not too dificult for the Slaymaster, but it can probably take out a few broodlings in the interim.

    And I said it before, but since the tactical situation is so delicious...
    At the choke point dig a really big pit. Big enough to hold all the kythons with room to spare. Encircle the outside of this pit with boards covered in lard, so anything that gets in has a greasy overhang, and anything charging slides in automatically. Then summon a wall of smoke to conceal it. IF you are lucky the entire kython army will just fall into the hole, where they can be killed at your leisure.

    Edit: forgot the silence effect. Make sure to cast it so the kythons can't yell to their comrades, and probably cancels their blindsight.
    Last edited by bugsysservant; 2007-10-09 at 05:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn_ap_Nud View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Werebear View Post
    Maybe this is just totally stupid of me, but...

    Maybe slapping the Slaymaster with Calm Emotions and trying to negotiate a truce is possible. If he no longer is quite so bloodthristy, he may be smart enough to realize that the zombies need to be killed too.

    I am not familiar with Kythons beyond passing, so I don't know if they could be placated into passing the village up like that.
    It's not stupid, but TK-squared's right, and they're bleedin' demons anyway. Getting back on track, the marshal/dragon shaman idea sounds pretty good, and I do agree that lots of healing won't help very much, since any solid hit would be insta-death for any villager. And the slaymaster will rise as a big zombie, but it'll be slow as hell. If you're lucky (Well, even more lucky considering you've already dropped the bastard at that point), the other kythons will see him as a larger threat. And this is pure speculation, but what do you expect to find in the caves after this battle? Maybe a slaughterking, if your DM feels like scaring you some more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverClawShift View Post
    Wands of summon monster 1. We're going to spam celestial badgers onto the field. We have no delusions, the badgers are there to die while slowing down kythons. We're comfortable with that, and since summoned monsters just go to their home plane anyway, we like to think they'll be okay with it too.
    No matter what else happens, this battle is going to be glorious. CELESTIAL BADGERS, ATTACK!

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    Well if your going to curse the slaymaster, have your curserers refocus the first round of combat, it'll give them the result of a 20 on their inititive roll allowing them to go first. Then drop half his actions, and then entangle/grease/solid fog him, he's either standing still, wrapped up, falling down, or going nowhere real fast.

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    A few things worth mentioning, as we gear up for war (me and the wizard are here, the DM is on his way, the rest of the group will be here soon).

    The healing isn't for the villagers. The villagers are going to be sniping/marshaling/dragon shamaning from barricaded positions foritified with solid rock. Any incorporeal kythons are something to worry about, but beyond that, if they're getting attacked by generic kython swarm, we allready lost anyway.

    No, we, the adventurers, are the frontliners. And we DO need healing, because we CAN expect to survive a few hits from the kythons. The healing is to keep us up and running more than anything else.
    Miss Beverly is going to be at the door. She's shouldering the responsibility of deciding when she can help us in combat, and when the door needs to be shut and barricaded (for better or for worse).

    I'll let you guys know what happened...

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    All I can say now is good luck, many natural 20s to you, and if you die, may the story of your valiant fight be told for ages!
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    I actually don't play d&d (just so you know, so take my ideas with a grain of salt ), but i think i've got a idea:

    While your're already cursing the Slaymaster, why not take it a step further and let some of the commoners take a single Hexblade level and add Hexblades Curse to the regular curses?
    I've read the descriptions of "Hexblades Curse" and "Bestow Curse" and i don't see anything saying they won't stack.

    Then you'd have an additional:
    -2 on attacks, damage rolls, saves, ability checks, skill checks for 1 hour.

    Doesn't sounds too bad, imho.

    Also, let whoever took the level in hexblade (lvl 1 should be enough, i don't think theres anything useful in hex 2 for this battle) take the Feat "Extra Hexblade’s Curse".
    It adds an additional 2 curses every day... it's homebrewed though.
    But i really don't think this feat is unreasonable or anything. Paladins have extra smiting. Barbarians have extra rage. Can't see a reason why Hexblades shouldn't have extra hexblades curse. Even if you sucessfully curse the slaymaster early, there are still the other bugs.

    Oh, and... since extra smiting and extra rage can be taken multiple times, its probably just fair to assume that extra hexblades curse would work the same way.
    So thats 5 x Hexblades curse for 1 lvl of hexblade and 2 feats.
    ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Extra_Hexblade's_Curse_(DnD_Feat) ) I don't know how good the slaymaster's will saving throw is, or if the hexblade might get killed early, so it might be a good idea to have more than one hexblade.

    Alright, i hope this wasn't a total waste of your reading time. :)


    Oh and, i don't know if this has been mentioned before, but build some improvisational bridges between the rooftops so your army can focus it's forces / run away from invaded rooftops (destroy the bridges after running away).

    /E: Good luck!
    Last edited by #Raptor; 2007-10-09 at 04:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychoticbarber View Post
    Well, we play and run our Paladins differently. I wouldn't fall a Paladin for leaving, but I'd make him feel pret-tee guilty about it.
    Unhappy about not being able to save everyone? Perhaps.

    But who should feel guiltier, truly? The paladin who unwisely stays with the fools and dies along with them (saving no one), or the paladin who wisely gathers those willing to evacuate and guides/protects them on an evacuation, thereby saving some lives?

    The former may indeed feel righteously justified in his/her actions, and the latter may in fact feel guilty about not being able to save them all. However, I'd make a case that the former is wrong to feel so righteous, and the latter just needs a friend to sit down and have a good heart-to-heart about how sometimes, in the complicated game of life, we can't save everyone even if we really wish with all our hearts that we could. "You did everything you could for them."

    In other words, I'm not at all sure that I'd agree that choosing glory over the chance to actually save lives is a more "good" act at all. I'm not even sure that it's a good act period, in fact:

    Staying to fight because you really believe you can save them? Good.

    Staying to fight while fully expecting to lose, sacrificing the entire village (including people you might have been able to evacuate and thus save) in your blaze-of-glory last stand? Neutral stupid at best.

    (Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but I feel very strongly about this. )

    But oh well, it sounds like you've decided anyway. Good luck.
    Last edited by Nowhere Girl; 2007-10-09 at 05:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    Unhappy about not being able to save everyone? Perhaps.

    But who should feel guiltier, truly? The paladin who unwisely stays with the fools and dies along with them (saving no one), or the paladin who wisely gathers those willing to evacuate and guides/protects them on an evacuation, thereby saving some lives?

    The former may indeed feel righteously justified in his/her actions, and the latter may in fact feel guilty about not being able to save them all. However, I'd make a case that the former is wrong to feel so righteous, and the latter just needs a friend to sit down and have a good heart-to-heart about how sometimes, in the complicated game of life, we can't save everyone even if we really wish with all our hearts that we could. "You did everything you could for them."

    In other words, I'm not at all sure that I'd agree that choosing glory over the chance to actually save lives is a more "good" act at all. I'm not even sure that it's a good act period, in fact:

    Staying to fight because you really believe you can save them? Good.

    Staying to fight while fully expecting to lose, sacrificing the entire village in your blaze-of-glory last stand? Neutral stupid at best.

    (Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but I feel very strongly about this. )
    That's what we call "loser-think." Paladins aren't losers, they are positive thinkers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen View Post
    That's what we call "loser-think." Paladins aren't losers, they are positive thinkers.
    That's where we disagree.

    To me, positive thinking is, "We can save anyone willing to come with us. The journey will be difficult, but if we all stick together and keep our wits about us, we can make it. And perhaps someday, we can return here and reclaim this land."

    When you start saying, "We're pretty sure we can't win, but let's just die anyway," that's on a different level entirely. It's actually perfectly honorable (in the Bushido sense, at least), but it's not necessarily good, and it's definitely not necessarily good when you're choosing throwing the lives of others away as well in a desperate blaze of glory over a really good chance of saving many of those lives by getting them out of there.

    This is a real bone of contention for me because I refuse to agree that paladins are required to be idiots.
    Last edited by Nowhere Girl; 2007-10-09 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Build An Army of Commoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    That's where we disagree.

    To me, positive thinking is, "We can save anyone willing to come with us. The journey will be difficult, but if we all stick together and keep our wits about us, we can make it. And perhaps someday, we can return here and reclaim this land."

    When you start saying, "We're pretty sure we can't win, but let's just die anyway," that's on a different level entirely. It's actually perfectly honorable (in the Bushido sense, at least), but it's not necessarily good, and it's definitely not necessarily good when you're choosing throwing the lives of others away as well in a desperate blaze of glory over a really good chance of saving many of those lives by getting them out of there.

    This is a real bone of contention for me because I refuse to agree that paladins are required to be idiots.
    But the villagers are choosing to make a stand against evil. If the paladins leave, then they are fleeing, and letting all those people die.
    If the Paladins hold the children hostage so as to force the adults to go with, well, that's not very nice, and is actually pretty evil.
    Also, the OP pointed out that a forced march would condemn the old and young to death, pretty much. I doubt that the Paladins' gods smile on that sort of thing.

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