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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?
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    The best and most obvious way to start is either a) Dark Imperium, or b) Know No Fear. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Death Guard army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Death Guard, you will almost definitely want to look into Start Collecting! boxes - with a few exceptions.

    *Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Codecies, an 'Astartes' army - in this context - could mean Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and, at the very outside, you could even start a Deathwatch army with Dark Imperium or KNF. The models found in Dark Imperium/KNF, work best with Dark Angels or Space Marines. But, until you have a Codex (or even just Datacards), you don't have to make that decision.

    However, just having the models, isn't really enough to play the game - you will need a rulebook. Dark Imperium comes with a rulebook, whilst Know No Fear, doesn't. That being said, Games Workshop offers the core rules to play the game on their website. So, if you can't afford a rulebook, and you just want to start playing the game with your friends, as long as you're matching Power Rating, you should be mostly okay...Mostly.

    Also, you need dice. ~30 is a good number to have. Any excess dice you have can be used for wound counters, or to keep track of Command Points (if you don't know what those are yet, that's fine). But, just as a frame of reference, the Inceptors you get in Dark Imperium/KNF, they roll 18 dice to hit. Additionally, try and have different colours of dice. It will speed up your games.

    Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. But we'll circle back to this.

    Additional Resources that you will want:
    - Battlescribe; Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

    - [Faction] Datacards; If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems, while also including all the cards you need to play Maelstrom Missions. Maelstrom is currently the most commonly played format of the game. But, if your playgroup - otherwise known as your 'metagame', or 'meta' - doesn't play Maelstrom, at least you've got all your Stratagems.

    - Open War cards; Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules.
    While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

    - Spin-down Dice; What? Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different coloursm, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s.


    ...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?
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    Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

    Power Rating; Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined. Power Rating is also problematic because the way Games Workshop - allegedly - arrives at a unit's Power Rating makes no sense. Additionally, with the ebb and flow of the meta, with certain units becoming more conducive to winning games than others, no unit in the game's Power Rating has ever been changed.

    Points; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. Additionally, Games Workshop releases points cost changes a few times a year, so, depending on your Codex's age, the points in the back may well be totally redundant, and you're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.


    So, what's a good start then?
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    Dark Imperium; The Astartes side is 773 Points, with a Power Rating of 41. The Death Guard are 636 Points with a PR of 34.
    Know No Fear; Astartes; 481 Points, PR 24. Death Guard; 456 Points, PR 25
    (Using the most recent Codex for both Factions, and Chapter Approved 2018)

    Know No Fear is a lot more fair. That being said, even in Dark Imperium, they are designed to be a start to an army, they are not an army, in and of themselves.

    If you don't want Astartes or Death Guard, you're going to want to look at Start Collecting! with the following exceptions:
    - Space Marines, Blood Angels and Primaris Space Wolves; The reason for this is easy. Know No Fear is cheaper, and better (and you can sell off the Death Guard half). The regular Space Wolves SC! box, is...Okay. If it doesn't have Primaris Marines and does have Thunderwolves, get that Space Wolf one.
    - Craftworlds; A pile of Elite and Heavy units is not how you start a Craftworlds army. That being said, if your idea of Craftworlds, involves a bunch of <Wraith Construct> units (e.g; Craftworld Iyanden), then you should absolutely buy it. If it's want you want, get it.
    - Orks; It's...Not great. While yes, it's a more legitimate start to an Ork army than Wraith-units to a Craftworlds army. It's just not a particularly good start.

    Because the Start Collecting! boxes are not fixed models, their points costs and Power Rating is indeterminate at best, because some units are dual kits, and some units have a vast array of wargear available to them. Ask the Thread for optimal builds for particular kits or boxes.


    Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.
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    Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

    A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.
    - 4x4' (low point games): You'll want 6-8 pieces of terrain with a combined total of a 1.3 - 2 foot square.
    - 6x4': You'll want 8-12 pieces of terrain, combining between 2'x4' and 2x6'.

    Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain that fully blocks Line of Sight. That is, terrain that is a solid mass that you can't see through. Examples might include Buildings or Statues. Small boards want at least one, and large boards want at least two. It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

    If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

    Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

    While we're here, a 4x4' board is typically used for games below 1000 Points (or <50 PR), and a 6x4' board is anything bigger. The rulebook - if you have one - will tell you this.


    I've heard about Conquest. What's that about?
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    Well, first off, it's only available in select countries. If you happen to live in one of those countries...

    Conquest Magazine is a subscription service with a total of 80 issues (4 per month). Over the course of almost two years, you will build up solid collections for Space Marines, Death Guard, and you will get a whole load of terrain. Additionally, the Magazine itself, comes with Missions, paints and paint brushes and will literally help you build up your hobby at a reasonable pace without overwhelming you.

    Conquest is great for people with limited time and limited funds, but who still want to get into the hobby. The main issues with Conquest is that the models you get are fixed - so here's hoping you like Astartes and/or Death Guard - and that it takes almost two years to finish. So if you're looking to dive right into the hobby, and start playing lots of games within six months with a strong, personalised army...Then Conquest probably isn't for you.

    On a personal note, if Conquest had been a Thing when I was a University student, I absolutely would have bought into it.


    This is so expensive!
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    So is buying a gaming console, and a game every month. So is buying a bunch of power tools, buying wood and learning home carpentry. Warhammer is a hobby, same as anything else. If you want to spend a little bit of money, you can. There are game modes where GW attempts to tell you that you don't need to spend a lot of money (but in actual fact you do, if you want to be good at it). If you want to spend a lot of money on the hobby, you can do that, too.

    It's not called 'plastic crack' for nothing, and it doesn't make significant others mad for no reason.

    Most independent gaming stores will sell GW products at -20%, and of course there's 'Battlescribe & Datacards = A Codex'. But, additionally, you can search internet to see if people are selling their models at a decent price. There are very affordable - and mostly safe - ways to strip paint from models if you see a bad paint job on models you want. That being said, the reason people most often sell their models is 'cause they aren't any good on the table. While that isn't the case all the time, it is the case...A lot. If you see a good deal, just make sure that they're models you actually want.


    Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?
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    Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.


    Build to my meta?
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    What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
    ...But, of course, they might, too.


    So what am I here for?
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    Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

    It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

    Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

    Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

    If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.


    So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?
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    That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

    If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

    If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

    At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.


    So, are some Factions are better overall than others?
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    As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running (i.e; Go back to your meta, see what people are running and how they play). If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

    But, for better or worse, Games Workshop has both officially and unofficially-by-game design stated that allied Factions are an intended part of the game, and that they're not going anywhere:
    1. This means that they don't have to write 'complete' Factions that can do everything, all the time, because you - a player/consumer - can plug the holes in your preferred Faction's tactics by adding another Faction that is good at it. This makes game design very forgiving on GW's end, especially for Imperium and Chaos factions.
    2. As a business, they sell you a more diverse range of models, so that certain kits don't just stay on the shelf forever and lose money by existing.

    If you don't want to include a second or even third Faction in your army (not least in part 'cause it requires spending more money), that's a choice you are fully allowed to make. But, if there's a choice in another Faction that does do what you need a unit to be able to do, and you are choosing not to take it, well...What can be said?


    I can't paint.
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    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Also, as mentioned, Conquest Magazine is excellent if you want to learn how to paint Ultramarines and/or Death Guard and/or a bunch of GW's terrain features. Other than that, other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

    If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
    a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
    b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

    GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).


    Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

    Helpful Army Building Guides
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    9th Ed. is coming. All of these will be out of date.
    Adeptus Custodes Out of date
    Adeptus Mechanicus Out of date
    Astra Militarum by LeSwordfish Out of date
    Chaos Space Marines by LeSwordfish Out of date
    Craftworlds by Forum Explorer Out of date
    Dark Angels Out of date
    Death Guard by LeSwordfish Out of date
    Deathwatch Out of date
    Drukhari by Gauntlet Out of date
    Grey Knights Out of date
    Necrons by Requizen Out of date
    Space Marines Part I - Part II Very Out of Date and Bad.
    Thousand Sons by Wraith Out of date

    Index: Inquisition (White Dwarf, Nov '19) Out of date
    Index: Officio Assassinorum (White Dwarf, Mar '19) Out of date
    Index: Sisters of Silence (White Dwarf, Oct '19) Out of date


    Previous conversations to search through...

    Previous Threads
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    * Warhammer 40K Tactics
    * II: Tactics for the Tactics God
    * III: Hats for the Hat Throne
    * IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
    * V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
    * VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
    * VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
    * VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
    * IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
    * X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
    * XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
    * XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
    * XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
    * XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
    * XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
    * XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
    * XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
    * XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
    * XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
    * XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
    * XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
    * XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
    * XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
    * XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
    * XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
    *
    XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
    * XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
    * XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
    * XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
    * XXX: Imperium After Dark
    * XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn
    * XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One
    * XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
    * XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up
    * XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering
    * XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It
    * XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
    * XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns
    * XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread
    * XL: Bloated Rules


    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Previously in the Eternal Darkness...
    • 9th Ed. Space Marines' Codex is out; Despite a few nerfs, is very strong.
    • 9th Ed. Necrons' Codex is out; Despite a few buffs, it is not that strong.
    • How to make Secondary Objectives less meaningful? Or perhaps, how to make Primary Objectives more meaningful?
    • Objectives in 9th Ed., still more or less follow how ITC's worked, in 8th Ed; You have to hold more Objectives that your opponent. Cool. Make it the two closest to your deployment zone. Choose another Objective on the board; Destroy your opponent's models that are holding it.
    • Hobby Question; Do models need to have scenic or textured bases? Is a single, flat colour enough? What about the dreaded clear bases?


    ...We now return you to the Darkness.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I don't care what sort of bases my opponent has, as long as they're not something that will get you kicked out of any reputable place.

    Sort of like how certain playmats and card alters will get banned from any respectable place.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    What new models from Necrons are worth getting? If I actually get a chance to play 40k in the next 2 years (looking grimmer by the day), would I be ok with my current collection or am I gimping myself without, I dunno, the new Skorphekh Destroyers or Silent King?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    What new models from Necrons are worth getting? If I actually get a chance to play 40k in the next 2 years (looking grimmer by the day), would I be ok with my current collection or am I gimping myself without, I dunno, the new Skorphekh Destroyers or Silent King?
    Necron Doomstalkers and the Void Dragon both look good. There are two different ways to give your entire army objective secured, and the C'tan and Doomstalkers are extremely durable. Doomstalkers are 7 power T7 12W 4++, Void Dragon limits how many wounds it can take in a phase, can hide behind infantry, 4++ and deals 3+d3 on all attacks to vehicles.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Well we're still waiting on the full codex iirc. Some of the new models seem to be strong from what's been leaked, and it looks like Tesla Immortals are gonna be put back on the shelf in favour of warriors or Gauss Immortals. Ophydian Destroyers are DOA, as is the new Monolith and the reanimation tripod. The Royal Warden was looking good until we learned that we could get a free disengage-and-shoot on one turn without them. Various crypteks are mostly meh. Skorpekh destroyers and Silent King are the strongest new contenders, but I'm not sure if they're strong enough to be a must-take.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Necron Doomstalkers and the Void Dragon both look good. There are two different ways to give your entire army objective secured, and the C'tan and Doomstalkers are extremely durable. Doomstalkers are 7 power T7 12W 4++, Void Dragon limits how many wounds it can take in a phase, can hide behind infantry, 4++ and deals 3+d3 on all attacks to vehicles.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Codex say that C'Tan can't benefit from Look Out Sir or Dynasty Traits?

    Meaning no hiding and no ObSec.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Codex say that C'Tan can't benefit from Look Out Sir or Dynasty Traits?

    Meaning no hiding and no ObSec.
    Argh this edition.

    Dooooooom stalkers are still looking good. 10inch move, barge gun and a tough body for cheap (AFAIK).
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Necrons got barely anything in Core though so keep that in mind when assessing their viability. Silent King feels solid, except he'll get shot to nothing due to no Inv. Overall, its a mediocre book. Point costs are out of whack as well.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Necrons got barely anything in Core though so keep that in mind when assessing their viability. Silent King feels solid, except he'll get shot to nothing due to no Inv. Overall, its a mediocre book. Point costs are out of whack as well.
    Wait-wait, what?

    The Silent King doesn't have an Invulnerable save? Any random Marine Captain has an Invuln! Any random COMPANY FLIPPING COMMANDER has an Invuln! How does the SILENT FLIP-FLAPPING KING not have one?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Wait-wait, what?

    The Silent King doesn't have an Invulnerable save? Any random Marine Captain has an Invuln! Any random COMPANY FLIPPING COMMANDER has an Invuln! How does the SILENT FLIP-FLAPPING KING not have one?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    My bad, it does; read a bad leak apparently.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I haven't posted in a while, since I haven't played at all since *gestures at everything* became the new norm. (Doubly so since I'm in the UK and our response has been one of the worst in the world.) But I thought I'd take a moment to christen the new thread.

    As a beer-and-pretzels casual player (or rather, cider and pork pies most times), I have found the tail-end of 8e, the introduction of 9e and everything surrounding it to be by parts annoying, demoralising, and headache inducing. This is the first iteration of the game since I started playing which if asked by someone "How do I get into playing 40k?", I would categorically answer "Don't. Just Don't", and would then attempt to dissuade them from doing so. These days there are so many different ways to enjoy the 40k IP, and the 40k wargame is by far the worst of them.

    Really, the core issue I have is the 8/9th ed update cycle. It manages to combine together the worst parts of physical gaming with the worst parts of online rapid-meta-shifting. The number of books a Chaos player needed to carry around at the end of 8e was absurd, and there was no guarantee that any of them had the correct points values! For a paid rule-set that's ridiculous. And none of it seemed to ever make anything better.

    And then rather than put any effort into working on the existing rules issues (linear points, do-everything units, there being no way to claim an objective other than killing), GW just dumps a load of poorly thought out Secondaries on top of the pile. (Designer tip: the idea of two different rules being able to counter-balance each other is a falsehood. There is no combination of unbalanced systems that together can make a single balanced one.) All it has done is add yet more complexity and annoyance to list building, further making the events of the game itself the least decisive part of the game. No player likes to turn up to a game and realise they've lost before they've put models on the table: as designers GWs job is to minimise that, and they've been piss-poor at it.

    I am on team "throw out Secondaries and pretend they don't exist", but only because team "throw out 9e and start over" is less popular.

    In other things, what do folks think of the look of the new Necron models? I rather like the Void Dragon shard but I find the new Monolith to be ugly as sin, and even more so when compared to the clean simplicity of the original.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I'm not tremendously a fan of the monolith either, to be honest. Greebled to hell instead of the sleek ****-off wrought iron look of the last.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    My bad, it does; read a bad leak apparently.

    Full datasheet:

    https://i.imgur.com/3X1eUHP.jpeg

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    Are the Menhirs the big shield things or the guys standing on his throne?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post

    Really, the core issue I have is the 8/9th ed update cycle. It manages to combine together the worst parts of physical gaming with the worst parts of online rapid-meta-shifting. The number of books a Chaos player needed to carry around at the end of 8e was absurd, and there was no guarantee that any of them had the correct points values! For a paid rule-set that's ridiculous. And none of it seemed to ever make anything better.
    I agree this is a core issue, though not sure it is new to 8th/9th? More noticeable perhaps, given the much more extensive use of errata, though I am a fan of that model rather than the Ďrelease and forgetí approach of old. But the still primarily physical book based system does not support an errata model well, and the online/app offering is still very behind where it needs to be to make it work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Are the Menhirs the big shield things or the guys standing on his throne?
    Menhir means standing stone. They're the pillars that accompany.

    I like the new Monolith personally, I'm a fan of most of the new Necron designs. Unfortunately I had just picked up a second old Monolith...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    What new models from Necrons are worth getting? If I actually get a chance to play 40k in the next 2 years (looking grimmer by the day), would I be ok with my current collection or am I gimping myself without, I dunno, the new Skorphekh Destroyers or Silent King?
    Well what do you currently have? From what I hear, the go to units are Warriors, Deathmarks, Lychguard, and Tomb Blades because all of them picked up Core. Pretty much every Canoptek unit came out alright too, with only Wraiths suffering a nerf. The Spyders are actually hilarious now if you want to run with those.

    New model wise, the Void Dragon looks incredible, but the Nightbringer is just as good if not better, so you don't need him if you already have the Nightbringer. The Doomstalker is basically a cheaper version of the Doomsday Arc, so that's pretty good. Skorphekt are apparently really good for melee and Nightscythes are transports now, so you can actually safely deliver your units to where they need to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Necrons got barely anything in Core though so keep that in mind when assessing their viability. Silent King feels solid, except he'll get shot to nothing due to no Inv. Overall, its a mediocre book. Point costs are out of whack as well.
    He has an Invulnerable. And honestly, I don't feel like Necrons suffer too much from not getting Core. Their buffs before were basically My Will Be Done, and since it wasn't an aura, but a select a unit, having some invalid targets didn't matter as much. Or basically, you couldn't amp up the Doomsday Arc before, and you can't do it now, so there you go.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynchan'rGwyll View Post
    Menhir means standing stone. They're the pillars that accompany.

    I like the new Monolith personally, I'm a fan of most of the new Necron designs. Unfortunately I had just picked up a second old Monolith...
    I would very much like those at some kind of stand alone unit. Even if i didn't move and was basically Necron Stonehenge it would be sweet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I'm not tremendously a fan of the monolith either, to be honest. Greebled to hell instead of the sleek ****-off wrought iron look of the last.
    I agree. The sheer number of random bits they keep slapping on new models is a big turn off for me. I liked the giant slab of black rock that was the old monolith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I would very much like those at some kind of stand alone unit. Even if i didn't move and was basically Necron Stonehenge it would be sweet.
    There will be a set of Necron terrain that's very similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Previously in the Eternal Darkness...
    [LIST[*] Hobby Question; Do models need to have scenic or textured bases? Is a single, flat colour enough? What about the dreaded clear bases?[/LIST]
    Depends on the basing requirements of the tournament.

    Honestly it depends on the army/model. No ones gonna care if people just paint brown on top of the base for guardsmen, but probably want a little more on say a Marine Captain. Best advice pick a army wide minimum and selectively upscale as you feel a model deserves.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    The next couple of models I do (my Caestus Assault Ram, my carnosaur) are gonna be some of the first large-based models I've done since trying to upmy basing game, which will be... interesting at least. Gonna have to break out the cork and milliput.

    As for clear bases... to each their own but if you put an army of them down in front of me at a tournament i would give you a very hard stare in the same way as I would for someone stretching the limits of "three colour minimum."
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Weighing in on the bases issue, I favor a uniform matte grey. Almost all my models are based that way, with two exceptions: My original grey knight terminators, which are 'painted' in a dark wash and then mounted on a dirt-colored base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Well what do you currently have? From what I hear, the go to units are Warriors, Deathmarks, Lychguard, and Tomb Blades because all of them picked up Core. Pretty much every Canoptek unit came out alright too, with only Wraiths suffering a nerf. The Spyders are actually hilarious now if you want to run with those.

    New model wise, the Void Dragon looks incredible, but the Nightbringer is just as good if not better, so you don't need him if you already have the Nightbringer. The Doomstalker is basically a cheaper version of the Doomsday Arc, so that's pretty good. Skorphekt are apparently really good for melee and Nightscythes are transports now, so you can actually safely deliver your units to where they need to be.

    I have like 5000 points of anything Necron related except I sold my Barges and Arks (which I never liked anyways).

    I want a Void Dragon regardless, that model is sick.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    It's super cool, but man is it the height of flimsly-looking. I would not want to need to transport that thing anywhere.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    It's super cool, but man is it the height of flimsly-looking. I would not want to need to transport that thing anywhere.
    A recurring problem with newer models. Iím very lucky in that I donít need to travel by public transport to get to games, but people who do have increasing problems.

    Iím quite surprised GW hasnít tried to get in on the Ďtransporting awkward modelsí game. Obviously they have their own figure cases, but those suit infantry and little else, and itís not something thatís ever discussed in White Dwarf or the GW site. Thereís a lot of good third party options of course, particularly in the States.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    A recurring problem with newer models. Iím very lucky in that I donít need to travel by public transport to get to games, but people who do have increasing problems.

    Iím quite surprised GW hasnít tried to get in on the Ďtransporting awkward modelsí game. Obviously they have their own figure cases, but those suit infantry and little else, and itís not something thatís ever discussed in White Dwarf or the GW site. Thereís a lot of good third party options of course, particularly in the States.
    I've just always had people go with the foam luggage container basically. Cut holes that are exactly the sizes of your models, have one for each army you drag around. A little bit of a pain to pack and unpack, but not that bad and your models are perfectly safe.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Cheese, you need to update that OP, it still lists DI as a good starting point.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    It's super cool, but man is it the height of flimsly-looking. I would not want to need to transport that thing anywhere.
    As an avid GA: Death player, magnetize your stuff as foam's protection is inversely proportional to the amount of spindly bits on the model. strong magnets on the base a bit of ventilation siding in a box is surprisingly effective transport method.
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