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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Back in the old days of magic, my favorite card was Terminate RB kill creature can’t be regenerated. Awesome pic of a dragon plummeting into a volcano.

    And that mostly sums up the most joy I got out of playing MTG. The feeling of raining hellfire down upon the enemy. Burning everything aside while they try to mount a pitiful offense against the inferno of death that surrounds them.

    I like playing red/black destruction stuff. In other words.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    And this, in itself, is as niche as it gets.
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    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Weirdly enough? I'd go with good ol' Haste.

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    [...] Haste. [...]How do you make sure that evenly matched combats go your way? First Strike.
    Could you clarify? From what I can tell from my own experiences on Haste, and from what you've describing, its value seems to lie in the possibility of removing your opponent's options to play. Obviously a bit more easily dealt with than Hexproof or Flying, but it seems like it's the same boat.

    I can kinda see a few things you mentioned, but the big counter I'm noticing is that it only encourages interactivity from one side. I know roughly what's going to happen with my Haste monster, but my opponent doesn't, and generally won't know what he needs to do to prevent me getting the value out of Haste. In almost all circumstances, the aggressor is getting value, or knows he's going to lose, and neither is something that the defender really gets a choice in how things resolve. The defender could happen to have untapped mana or a hidden gambit, and the aggressor calls the bluff, which means the aggressor generally is, once again, the one making most of the decisions in how things resolve.

    So one player is making a choice, while the other one is making an uneducated guess or it falls on random chance to have a usable solution their opponent didn't account for.

    Sure, this is a lot like counterspell decks, but counterspells aren't a win condition, generally punish players for taking large risks (usually by casting big spells) and while both are controlled by the owner, the blue player has to lose the main use of his turn's mana for a potential gain in the hopes that the opponent makes a mistep. As a result, the one that's taking a gamble between the blue player and his opponent is the blue player losing mana and card draw, while the red Haste player's opponent is the one gambling by trying to come up with a juryrigged defense.

    There are some outside elements that impact this, like how blue decks have a lot of powerful instants that can be spammed at the end of a turn if saving mana for a counter isn't relevant, but it's not like other decks don't have similar aspects (like burn spells).

    But is there something I'm missing?


    Sorry for drilling you, Amechra, I'm just a glutton for this kind of stuff, and you basically ooze insight on most of your posts on game mechanics.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-09-17 at 06:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Could you clarify? From what I can tell from my own experiences on Haste, and from what you've describing, its value seems to lie in the possibility of removing your opponent's options to play. Obviously a bit more easily dealt with than Hexproof or Flying, but it seems like it's the same boat.
    Let us assume that Player A is playing a deck with creatures with a mix where some have Haste, and some lack Haste. His opponent, Player B, is playing with counterspells and a mix of instant- and sorcery-speed removal.

    Player B ends turn 3 with 3 mana open, and Player A untaps with three lands. He's facing down counterspell mana, and he's got a hasty 3-drop, a non-hasty 3-drop, and a few other cards.

    How does player A handle the situation? If he has creatures on the field, that might indicate that Player B actively chose to not use removal and is holding up counter mana. How does that influence whether he plays the stronger card with haste/weaker card without Haste? He can bait out instant-speed answers with the non-Haste Creature because Player B doesn't want to waste the open mana. Or, based on what he's seen so far, he might assume that it was just a blank turn, and go for closing out massive value from the Haste creature now and get even more tempo on his side. Player B can't just rely on Sorcery-speed answers, but if he wastes his Instant-speed ones, he loses answers to Haste in the future.

    In short, it adds a level of mind-games and consideration of one's opponent's tools to aggressive decks in a way that synergizes with your gameplan, rather than leaving interaction solely to control and midrange. IMO.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Let us assume that Player A is playing a deck with creatures with a mix where some have Haste, and some lack Haste. His opponent, Player B, is playing with counterspells and a mix of instant- and sorcery-speed removal.

    Player B ends turn 3 with 3 mana open, and Player A untaps with three lands. He's facing down counterspell mana, and he's got a hasty 3-drop, a non-hasty 3-drop, and a few other cards.

    How does player A handle the situation? If he has creatures on the field, that might indicate that Player B actively chose to not use removal and is holding up counter mana. How does that influence whether he plays the stronger card with haste/weaker card without Haste? He can bait out instant-speed answers with the non-Haste Creature because Player B doesn't want to waste the open mana. Or, based on what he's seen so far, he might assume that it was just a blank turn, and go for closing out massive value from the Haste creature now and get even more tempo on his side. Player B can't just rely on Sorcery-speed answers, but if he wastes his Instant-speed ones, he loses answers to Haste in the future.

    In short, it adds a level of mind-games and consideration of one's opponent's tools to aggressive decks in a way that synergizes with your gameplan, rather than leaving interaction solely to control and midrange. IMO.
    I think that might be a poor example, though.

    The interaction with Counterspells is fairly general-purpose. Whether or not the blue player can only counter Instant spells, or doesn't even have any Counters and is totally bluffing, doesn't change the fact that there is a major decision-making process that's created between both players.

    Haste creatures aren't quite the same.

    Counterspells can interact with them, because they are the fastest responses in the game. But compare that red haste deck to a green or a black deck and it's a different story. Sure, they could have answers, but it's not like a green deck choosing to hold half of it's mana with a full hand is going to be a reasonable bluff like it would as a blue player. The solution for that green player, against that Haste deck, is going to come down to "Draw a solution", not "Make a solution".
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-09-17 at 07:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    I think that might be a poor example, though.

    The interaction with Counterspells is fairly general-purpose. Whether or not the blue player can only counter Instant spells, or doesn't even have any Counters and is totally bluffing, doesn't change the fact that there is a major decision-making process that's created between both players.
    Flash is secondary in blue, plus even lands have activated abilities for all that mana nowadays. And you forget the main 'do stuff while saving mana' permanent type: planeswalkers.

    Sure, they could have answers, but it's not like a green deck choosing to hold half of it's mana with a full hand is going to be a reasonable bluff like it would as a blue player. The solution for that green player, against that Haste deck, is going to come down to "Draw a solution", not "Make a solution".
    Flash is primary in green. Vigilance is secondary in green. Green should be able to outrace most creature-based decks; but then thats a fallacy only valid in a monocolor world. UG has beef AND counters, and usually 'untap all your lands' shenanigans; GR has beef and haste of its own, GB has cheap instant speed removal (if conditional), etc. Green also has access to ramp so that puts a clock on the viability of the haste agressor game plan.

    But more importantly, disregarding deck construction as part of the game and focusing too heavily into an arbitrarily narrowed subsection of 'interaction' is not consistent with how the game is designed.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    How's Faerun gonna work in Magic? D&D wizards cast planeshift all the freakin' time, and that's a big no-no in Magic lore. Or is it going to be like a version of Faerun that plays by Magic's rules?
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Could you clarify? [...]

    Sorry for drilling you, Amechra, I'm just a glutton for this kind of stuff, and you basically ooze insight on most of your posts on game mechanics.
    No problem!

    Consider the simplest possible case, where I have a deck full of (non-hasty) creatures, and you have a deck with a few creatures and a ton of sorcery-speed removal. In general, you're going to be able to lock me down by getting rid of all of my creatures, and then swinging in with your small number of threats. Your strategy effectively dominates mine - you can kill all of my big creatures before they can do anything and soak up my little creatures with your small number of blockers. You're effectively playing a simplified version of Black Control. There are a few ways that I can change my deck so that you won't have such an easy time with crushing me:

    1) I can include creatures that do stuff when they die. Your most efficient way of counteracting this change is to change your removal to stuff like bouncing/exiling/tapping/etc that doesn't trigger those abilities.
    2) I can include creatures with various protective abilities (which can be anything from Hexproof to Dash), so that your removal won't be able to kill them. You can address this by swapping over to board wipes/hand hate/counterspells. A lot of those have really specific timing, so I'm mostly making it harder for you to interact with me.
    3) I can include creatures that do things immediately, without having to wait for a turn cycle. Your most efficient way of dealing with this is to include stuff in your deck that addresses these effects.

    Haste falls solidly in the last group - it lets my creature do something (i.e. tapping to attack or for effect) immediately. Your best way of addressing that is to either run instant-speed removal or to increase the creature density of your deck. You're probably going to end up going with creatures having more creatures, since a solid defensive creature is going to do more to dissuade me from swarming you with haste-y creatures than hitting them with targeted removal would. And more creatures means more combat, which is generally going to increase the amount of interaction.

    At the same time, haste is less abusable than my other options for counteracting your dominant strategy. If I start running a bunch of stuff that wants to die, I'm a step away from swerving into Aristocrats. Protective abilities encourage me to stack buffs (like Auras or Equipment) onto that creature (because you can't deal with it). Abilities that trigger when my creature enters the battlefield encourage me to run other effects (like flickering/bouncing) that effectively let me turn them into easy-to-recur spells. With Haste, you're generally going to drop it and push the combat button. It keeps your creature feeling like a creature, and not a miserable pile of card advantage.

    ...

    To use your example of a Green-Black deck vs. a haste-y Red deck, they have answers. Green-Black has bigger creatures, so the question becomes whether or not they hold back one of their fatties as a blocker, or if they push the attack to call their opponent's bluff. Or, heck, I could drop my haste-y creature, swing at their "unprotected" face, and lose my creature to the Ambush Viper they just flashed in. Or I might lose it because they played like Burst of Strength that untaps a blocker out of nowhere, or they could just Doom Blade my guy before we even get to the whole "dealing damage" step of things.

    If they're another Red deck, instant speed burn is pretty common. White is built around dealing with people trying to punch them to death - stuff like Vigilance lets them have an answer on the board, and they could do anything from playing a "destroy target attacking or blocking creature" spell to something more exotic like flickering one of their tapped creatures to block and get another use out of that creature's ETB.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    How's Faerun gonna work in Magic? D&D wizards cast planeshift all the freakin' time, and that's a big no-no in Magic lore. Or is it going to be like a version of Faerun that plays by Magic's rules?
    Correct answer:

    Poorly.

    Reasonable answer:

    The 'Blind Eternities' are Spelljammer's Phlogiston, and their worlds are different crystal spheres.

    Likely answer:

    Completely glossed over and not acknowledged.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Relatively new player but I loved Convoke. It adds ramp and mana but does not go so insane like other mana accelerants.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    What I expect (and hope) is that the Forgotten Realms set will simply use Magic cards as a medium to depict Faerun, and will not make it a part of the Magic universe or integrate it into the story at all. The two multiverses don't need each other.

    In practice, this will look a lot like Fable Wright's likely answer.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    How's Faerun gonna work in Magic? D&D wizards cast planeshift all the freakin' time, and that's a big no-no in Magic lore. Or is it going to be like a version of Faerun that plays by Magic's rules?
    The various planes in Faerun are all PART of Faerun. It's like travel between Theros and the Underworld and the Nyx. The wizards on Faerun think they're hot **** when they can do this intraplanar travel, don't know the real secrets of the multiverse. Planeswalkers are laughing at these plane-bound wizards thinking that just because they went to the place what is made of fire, they walked the planes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Correct answer:

    Poorly.

    Reasonable answer:

    The 'Blind Eternities' are Spelljammer's Phlogiston, and their worlds are different crystal spheres.

    Likely answer:

    Completely glossed over and not acknowledged.
    I imagine it'll be acknowledged at least a little. The DND set is going to be a standard legal main set, replacing a Core Set, so it's not like some side thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durazno View Post
    What I expect (and hope) is that the Forgotten Realms set will simply use Magic cards as a medium to depict Faerun, and will not make it a part of the Magic universe or integrate it into the story at all. The two multiverses don't need each other.

    In practice, this will look a lot like Fable Wright's likely answer.
    The information they have given us about the set denotes that it'll be actually "Faerun is canon a plane in MTG now", actually.

    I don't see why everyone is treating this like it'll go badly. They've made it VERY clear they have no interest in non planeswalkers traveling the multiverse, and just because Faerun has different planes of existence within its own plane, doesn't mean that it'll translate to "oh Faerun wizards can teleport to other parts of the Multiverse". It'd be like saying that I can go to different parts of the multiverse, because I'm capable of "going on a plane". It's different, because words mean different things in different contexts.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-09-18 at 08:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    With Haste, you're generally going to drop it and push the combat button. It keeps your creature feeling like a creature, and not a miserable pile of card advantage.
    Hit the nail on the head there.


    I still kinda disagree with the philosophy of Haste as an overall concept, but the reality is that it sits exactly at that midpoint of the MTG philosophy, between "I win by making you unable to play" and "you can outplay me because my mechanics let you". MTG already sets a really high bar for denial, whether that's through Hexproof, Indestructable, Flying, Instant Removal, First Strike, you name it.

    Haste is still like that, but not to the same degree. It doesn't feel "weak" compared to other interactive mechanics (like Menace), yet it is a lot more interactive than most of anything that gets used.

    It may not be a perfect mechanic overall, but it's a perfect mechanic within MTG's ecosystem. And I can appreciate that.


    Thanks, Amechra!
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The information they have given us about the set denotes that it'll be actually "Faerun is canon a plane in MTG now", actually.

    I don't see why everyone is treating this like it'll go badly. They've made it VERY clear they have no interest in non planeswalkers traveling the multiverse, and just because Faerun has different planes of existence within its own plane, doesn't mean that it'll translate to "oh Faerun wizards can teleport to other parts of the Multiverse". It'd be like saying that I can go to different parts of the multiverse, because I'm capable of "going on a plane". It's different, because words mean different things in different contexts.
    I mean, I just think that it's a blatant, poorly-though-out attempt at brand synergy.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I mean, I just think that it's a blatant, poorly-though-out attempt at brand synergy.
    Its caving to a loud vocal online minority. I think the Theros and Ravnica books have sold super poorly, so I dont know how much money that minority puts behind their words. But, it replaces a Core Set, so if the set sucks it wont be a surprise and it'll just be filler for a season until it rotates out.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Its caving to a loud vocal online minority. I think the Theros and Ravnica books have sold super poorly, so I dont know how much money that minority puts behind their words.
    Thing is, though, they don't really have to sell too well, as it's likely just a way to spark interest from one product to another. Several of those folks that bought the books are probably MTG players that don't have many other books, so that means more PHB and DMG copies being sold as well, where people buying a normal expansion like Xanathar's Guide to Everything are probably only buying that one book, so you can probably double the amount of profit of each sold copy of those "hybrid" books.

    Pretty smart play, from a business standpoint. If anything, they must have realized that it was somewhat successful, considering they're continuing that trend into MTG several months later.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-09-18 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Thing is, though, they don't really have to sell too well, as it's likely just a way to spark interest from one product to another. Several of those folks that bought the books are probably MTG players that don't have many other books, so that means more PHB and DMG copies being sold as well, where people buying a normal expansion like Xanathar's Guide to Everything are probably only buying that one book, so you can probably double the amount of profit of each sold copy of those "hybrid" books.

    Pretty smart play, from a business standpoint. If anything, they must have realized that it was somewhat successful, considering they're continuing that trend into MTG several months later.
    Set design has a huge lead time though. Im sure that was the plan, but they wouldn't have had time to correct it by the time Theros or even Ravnica's numbers were in.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Set design has a huge lead time though. Im sure that was the plan, but they wouldn't have had time to correct it by the time Theros or even Ravnica's numbers were in.
    Maybe, but I think that if they didn't care about using the books to support the set, then it would have made more sense to do both at the same time, or at least make an announcement of the set sooner.

    There was a big delay between the two, which says to me that they were using the books as a trial run, as MTG is a much bigger source of income than DnD for WotC. This set probably has a lot of expectation on profit margin (as it'll probably be a big pull for new MTG customers), so I suspect that they're not taking any chances on it flopping.

    In a way, it was a good thing that Ravnica and Theros had issues, as it showed them exactly how serious they have to treat it.

    However, MTG is also all about competition, while DnD is about cooperation, so power changes mean something different between those two halves. Assuming they did make the Faerun set pretty damn OP, that'd make it more of a reason to buy into it (while the opposite happened with DnD Ravnica). That, in turn, becomes easy advertising for more DnD players to start playing MTG, so I'm guessing that they'll make it somewhat unbalanced.

    It also has the benefit for them of making those who are against the cameo to get over themselves or suck it, which in turn starts opening up the public opinion to welcome more cameo sets in the future, which then creates a new method for them to regularly pull new players from.

    Dunno, just a guess. We'll just have to see.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-09-18 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Out of all the D&D players I know (and I know a lot, through owning a store and been a player/DM for years) exactly 0 are excited about it. Most D&D players here either know Magic is a thing they are too poor to chase, or its something they did and moved on from because it was making them poor. There is of course also the purist crowd who scoff at 'silly games' as opposed to the form of high interpretative art that roleplaying is (yeah) and scared fluff bunny casuals who are terrified of the mean, awful, smelly card gamers.

    So at least for our local market I wouldnt hold too much hope for it bringing any new players at all. Which isnt to say there wont be new players during those months, just that they would've started playing regardless of what the latest set was.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Out of all the D&D players I know (and I know a lot, through owning a store and been a player/DM for years) exactly 0 are excited about it. Most D&D players here either know Magic is a thing they are too poor to chase, or its something they did and moved on from because it was making them poor. There is of course also the purist crowd who scoff at 'silly games' as opposed to the form of high interpretative art that roleplaying is (yeah) and scared fluff bunny casuals who are terrified of the mean, awful, smelly card gamers.

    So at least for our local market I wouldnt hold too much hope for it bringing any new players at all. Which isnt to say there wont be new players during those months, just that they would've started playing regardless of what the latest set was.
    Sure, but the alternative is "more of the same". Even if it doesn't make a big difference, it just has to be better (in terms of gaining players) than what's already happening to be worthwhile. This is one of the first "weird" sets that have been officially released. The only thing I can think of that comes close to how oddball this set is, as far as official stuff goes, is probably something like the super-early Portal Second Age cards that used GUNS.

    And not like "Oh, it's some kind of magic tech with elemental..."-NO. They used BULLETS.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Sure, but the alternative is "more of the same". Even if it doesn't make a big difference, it just has to be better (in terms of gaining players) than what's already happening to be worthwhile. This is one of the first "weird" sets that have been officially released. The only thing I can think of that comes close to how oddball this set is, as far as official stuff goes, is probably something like the super-early Portal Second Age cards that used GUNS.

    And not like "Oh, it's some kind of magic tech with elemental..."-NO. They used BULLETS.
    Pirates are a thing, with pistols and cannons and such. Not sure whats weird about guns these days.

    MTG has been on fire lately but Zendikar is already starting to show symptoms of both wallet fatigue and people realizing OP is gone. As the optimism for piling up cardboard you dont use begins to fade, I doubt next year's core set would've matched M21's numbers.

    But also, I dont count 'I play D&D I buy anything you slap a D&D logo on' as real new players. People might pick a deck or a box then forget about it a few weeks later when the novelty wears off. Those, to me, are noplayers who dont count for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Out of all the D&D players I know (and I know a lot, through owning a store and been a player/DM for years) exactly 0 are excited about it. Most D&D players here either know Magic is a thing they are too poor to chase, or its something they did and moved on from because it was making them poor. There is of course also the purist crowd who scoff at 'silly games' as opposed to the form of high interpretative art that roleplaying is (yeah) and scared fluff bunny casuals who are terrified of the mean, awful, smelly card gamers.

    So at least for our local market I wouldnt hold too much hope for it bringing any new players at all. Which isnt to say there wont be new players during those months, just that they would've started playing regardless of what the latest set was.
    I mean as someone who is way into playing DND, but prefers the Magic the Gathering setting, those books were kind of a god send, as where the Planeswalk Articles describing how these planes work from a DND perspective. Because I like that stuff. Likewise, while I'm not the biggest fan of Faerun as a plane, having it become an official thing I can use is cool, and maybe seeing it in MTG style will make me appreciate it more!

    Maybe I'm an outlier, but given they did make the Theros book at all means it's not a dead in the water idea. I think y'all are just being super cynical for basically no reason.

    EDIT: as for the gun thing, all of the gun like weapons in Ixalan are cannons. Even the hand held ones. They're explicitly Not Guns, because Magic refuses to show guns in artwork or lore anymore. These hand held cannons are the closest we're likely to get for awhile. It's very silly honestly!
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-09-18 at 04:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    MTG has been on fire lately but Zendikar is already starting to show symptoms of both wallet fatigue and people realizing OP is gone. As the optimism for piling up cardboard you dont use begins to fade, I doubt next year's core set would've matched M21's numbers.
    So, uh, this is a term that I've not heard before in this context. How should I read "OP is gone"? Original Poster meaning design between M10 and Fate Reforged/New World Order to New Standard era? OverPowered cards leaving circulation? What?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean as someone who is way into playing DND, but prefers the Magic the Gathering setting, those books were kind of a god send, as where the Planeswalk Articles describing how these planes work from a DND perspective. Because I like that stuff. Likewise, while I'm not the biggest fan of Faerun as a plane, having it become an official thing I can use is cool, and maybe seeing it in MTG style will make me appreciate it more!
    I will buy any Kamigawa book made for D&D. Actually, make that most sets that haven't been touched since New Standard. Alara setting book? Sold. Pre-Shadows Innistrad? Sold. Khans of Tarkir? Sold. (Dragons can die in a fire.)

    Ravnica is an outlier that tainted my hopes in crossover products not being terrible, though, with its absolutely awful expanded spell list options that randomly provided game-changing power boosts at trivial cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    So, uh, this is a term that I've not heard before in this context. How should I read "OP is gone"? Original Poster meaning design between M10 and Fate Reforged/New World Order to New Standard era? OverPowered cards leaving circulation? What?
    Organized Play, as in, sanctioned events, which are suspended in North American and LATAM for the foreseeable future; Europe and Asia have store-level OP but nothing larger at least for the remaining months of 2020.



    Alara setting book?
    Its called 'Planeswalker's Guide to Alara' (sans mechanics but eh) and if I recall correctly also sold poorly, even though its beautiful and I love it.

    Ravnica is an outlier that tainted my hopes in crossover products not being terrible, though, with its absolutely awful expanded spell list options that randomly provided game-changing power boosts at trivial cost
    .

    Mechanics aside, the world-building they did for all the flavor going into the original Ravnica is amazing. The guilds felt so unique and yet totally part of a cohesive whole. The novels themselves are eh at best, but the setting is just so lively and brilliant

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I mean as someone who is way into playing DND, but prefers the Magic the Gathering setting, those books were kind of a god send, as where the Planeswalk Articles describing how these planes work from a DND perspective. Because I like that stuff. Likewise, while I'm not the biggest fan of Faerun as a plane, having it become an official thing I can use is cool, and maybe seeing it in MTG style will make me appreciate it more!

    Maybe I'm an outlier, but given they did make the Theros book at all means it's not a dead in the water idea. I think y'all are just being super cynical for basically no reason.
    The reason I'm raising my eyebrow at Forgotten Realms is that, as far as I know, it's Ed Greenwood's baby. Like, it doesn't actually belong to WotC. That seems... foolish... to me. And that's before you get into weird metaphysical questions, or how it would technically mean that our world is in the MtG multiverse. It's just a really messy thing.

    And honestly? What they should do is make a MtG-to-D&D "core" that gives you the rules necessary to play Planeswalkers, and then release an almanac of the planes. Because MtG planes are mostly all-flash-and-no-substance, which is perfectly fine when you're designing a card game that needs cool pictures and names. It's... less than ideal... if you're trying to convert it into an RPG setting.

    Ravnica is one of, like, two planes that I think is actually complex enough to justify being its own thing. The other is Dominaria. But Theros? Kaladesh? Amonkhet? Yeah, just give me an almanac of the cool places to visit and fun people to talk to while I'm on my Superfriends Adventure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The reason I'm raising my eyebrow at Forgotten Realms is that, as far as I know, it's Ed Greenwood's baby. Like, it doesn't actually belong to WotC. That seems... foolish... to me. And that's before you get into weird metaphysical questions, or how it would technically mean that our world is in the MtG multiverse. It's just a really messy thing.

    And honestly? What they should do is make a MtG-to-D&D "core" that gives you the rules necessary to play Planeswalkers, and then release an almanac of the planes. Because MtG planes are mostly all-flash-and-no-substance, which is perfectly fine when you're designing a card game that needs cool pictures and names. It's... less than ideal... if you're trying to convert it into an RPG setting.

    Ravnica is one of, like, two planes that I think is actually complex enough to justify being its own thing. The other is Dominaria. But Theros? Kaladesh? Amonkhet? Yeah, just give me an almanac of the cool places to visit and fun people to talk to while I'm on my Superfriends Adventure.
    I genuinely don't know what you mean about the Forgotten Realms.

    Uh... all of those places you mentioned are worth their own settings, absolutely. Amonket is the "smallest" of them, but that's beacuse we've been there exactly once and seen one city on the plane. Kinda hard to flesh out the world in that case. Meanwhile I could absolutely take Theros, or Kaladesh, or any plane that you think is insufficient and make an entire campaign setting about. Hell, they did it with Theros after making the Ravnica DND guide, and it ruled. They're all definitely complex enough to be their own thing.

    And given my understanding of Faerun is that it's always been fairly generic fantasy stuff, I don't think it'd be exempt from the idea of being "not complex enough" in what you're describing.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-09-18 at 08:24 PM.

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    I absolutely loved Planeswalker's Guide to Theros. I am going to have to disagree vehemently with the idea that the plane isn't fleshed out enough to run a D&D campaign in: I'm working on one at this very moment.

    The best thing about the Planeswalker's Guides is that they take something from a card game (which admittedly is pretty slim on fluff) and gives it so much more worldbuilding. For instance the very in-depth sections on each of the gods, the myths surrounding them, their domains and motivations, etc. Furthermore, there's a good job done of fleshing out the geography of Theros, providing details about each of the major poleis and geographic regions, and the different layers of the Underworld. It's still recognizable as Theros, but it feels much more like a "real" world.

    That said, I'm not thrilled with Forgotten Realms in MtG, because it works the opposite way. FR is a developed world, with tons of fluff and flavor, but turning it into an MtG set forces them to cut much of that fluff. And then we'll have a Drizzt card, and everyone will whine about how it's either OP or complete garbage, and how WotC misrepresented the character, etc etc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Hermicus View Post
    I absolutely loved Planeswalker's Guide to Theros. I am going to have to disagree vehemently with the idea that the plane isn't fleshed out enough to run a D&D campaign in: I'm working on one at this very moment.

    The best thing about the Planeswalker's Guides is that they take something from a card game (which admittedly is pretty slim on fluff) and gives it so much more worldbuilding. For instance the very in-depth sections on each of the gods, the myths surrounding them, their domains and motivations, etc. Furthermore, there's a good job done of fleshing out the geography of Theros, providing details about each of the major poleis and geographic regions, and the different layers of the Underworld. It's still recognizable as Theros, but it feels much more like a "real" world.

    That said, I'm not thrilled with Forgotten Realms in MtG, because it works the opposite way. FR is a developed world, with tons of fluff and flavor, but turning it into an MtG set forces them to cut much of that fluff. And then we'll have a Drizzt card, and everyone will whine about how it's either OP or complete garbage, and how WotC misrepresented the character, etc etc...
    Basically all of the information in these DND supplements for Magic are from their world design documents. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not part of the setting, this book just makes a lot of it more explicit. MTG cards are more of a "Greatest hits" plus "the current story" on what it focuses on card wise.

    I feel like it'll be more flavourful than you think, but then I don't really know much about the flavor of Faerun. And I mean even if they do the set perfectly people are going to complain, it's Drizzt.

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    My opponent just played a Captive Audience, and I survived long enough to pick all three options, and then another 2 turns. I'm pretty proud of that, even though I didn't win.

    There was actually a time when I did win under such circumstances. I don't remember how.
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    I recently had a game I enjoyed myself.

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    I was playing my janky Abzan deck.

    Windmill slam Massacre Wurm.

    Opponent was probably not happy.

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