Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[unseenmage]

Commander is odd, in that I've learned that you really do want to still keep a mana curve, with more cheaper cards and very few really expensive cards, but you also want to have some cards that cost a million mana and do something powerful enough to be worth that much because you'll probably eventually get to cast it. So I don't have great advice there, but I have noticed that my decks that play a better ratio of cheap spells to expensive spells tend to play better in general.

Theres a math-ey breakdown of mana curve and how its even more important in larger decks out there somewhere.

The basic premise is more cards equals the need for more mana cards more often.

[Emmerlaus]

That many ramp pieces or that many expensive cards?

That many expensive CMC cards!

10 cards above 5 CMC is just too much!

[enderlord99]

That many expensive CMC cards!

10 cards above 5 CMC is just too much!

Keep in mind, the total card-count is much higher, so it's really like 6 cards.

Also keep in mind, Commander is a singleton format, so the "6" (actually 10) 1-ofs is in place of "1½" (actually 2½) 4-ofs.

So, in conclusion: 10 different 6-drops in a Highlander format (whether Elder Dragon or otherwise) is like 4 each of 1½ different 6-drops in more traditional formats.

In more physically meaningful terms, it would be roughly the same as having 4 copies of a 6-drop and 2 copies of a different 6-drop. The format's just so big, it takes 10 different cards to fill an equivalent space.

EDIT: Here's a chart of (mathematically abstracted) equivalences between card-count in Higlander vs 60-card Constructed, for all counts from 10 to 15 (either side) assuming maximum redundancy:

Highlander	60-card
66.6~	10
73.3~	11
80	12
86.6~	13
93.3~	14
100*	15*
10	1.5
11	1.65
12	1.8
13	1.95
14	2.1

Tildes indicate repeating decimals.


*(that's the full deck, leaving no room for lands)

[Ninjaman]

That many expensive CMC cards!

10 cards above 5 CMC is just too much!

For a competitive deck, probably, for the more general commander crew, not really.
Like Enderlord explained it's like playing 6 6drops in your 60 card deck. Commander is a slower format, which mean you can play more, and you play ramp, which mean you can play more. 6 6drops is not unreasonable for a 60 card ramp deck, so 10 6 drops is not unreasonable for your average commander deck.

My Karador deck has 4, but it is also far more competitive than your average EDH deck.

My Olivia has 22, not counting X spells, Avatar of Woe or Blasphemous Act.

My Rashmi has 8. but that's not counting Rite of Replication, Blue Sun's Zenith or Cyclonic rift which all should be counted. Also not counting delve spells, but they shouldn't be. It's also worth nothing that you want a lower curve to take advantage of Rashmi's ability.

[Marywn]

Huh, I just looked at a card from Eldraine.. Brazen Borrower. What is everyone's opinions on that mythic?

[Ninjaman]

Huh, I just looked at a card from Eldraine.. Brazen Borrower. What is everyone's opinions on that mythic?

I'm unimpressed. It will probably do reasonable in standard, but I'm not really seeing it in any other format.

[Tvtyrant]

Huh, I just looked at a card from Eldraine.. Brazen Borrower. What is everyone's opinions on that mythic?

It is pretty good. Bounce is good at dealing with the "cheated into play" creatures that dominate eternal formats, and it is card advantage neutral so better then uncommon types.

It isn't busted, but it is a sidegrade to echoing truth.

[Techwarrior]

That's disingenuinous at best. Echoing truth almost exclusively gets played as a bounce spell in large part due to the "and all permanents with the same name," clause of the spell. Your storm deck has to bounce all copies of the hate piece, y'know.

It might get the nod in modern gifts storm over wipe away, but that's because of its specific deck building constraints gifts imposes.

[Ninjaman]

I'm not sure in which deck in which matchup both parts of the card are good, and both need to be good for the card to be useful.

[tgva8889]

Mostly what I've found is that you have to think about what your ideal turns look like. Imagine how the beginning of the game goes and how the end of the game goes for you, and make sure the cards you're playing fit into that imagination. If you can't answer the questions "How do you win?" and "What do you do on turns 1-5 ideally?" you should probably figure that out.

Mana curve is deck-dependent, though. I have some aggressive decks that just don't play cards over 4-5 mana that don't say "you win the game" on them, and I have a Dragon Tribal deck that is basically only ramp spells, big dragons, and reanimation spells which probably averages CMC around 6 or 7, so you really do have to look at your plan and figure out what your goals are.

[Emmerlaus]

Huh, I just looked at a card from Eldraine.. Brazen Borrower. What is everyone's opinions on that mythic?

I know I’m a minority but it’s a must add in my Isperia the Unscutable EDH deck. It has the best synergy for this deck.

[Tvtyrant]

That's disingenuinous at best. Echoing truth almost exclusively gets played as a bounce spell in large part due to the "and all permanents with the same name," clause of the spell. Your storm deck has to bounce all copies of the hate piece, y'know.

It might get the nod in modern gifts storm over wipe away, but that's because of its specific deck building constraints gifts imposes.

Right, sidegrade. Echoing truth and boomerang make up for card disadvantage by versatility, Brazen does by giving you a good body. They are tempo bounce cards with upside, echoing truth and boomerang upsides are more situational but stronger in those.

[Marywn]

Right, sidegrade. Echoing truth and boomerang make up for card disadvantage by versatility, Brazen does by giving you a good body. They are tempo bounce cards with upside, echoing truth and boomerang upsides are more situational but stronger in those.

That is interesting. Personally when i think mythic, i think Star of Extinctions levels of fun, mostly because i love just "deal 20 damage to every planeswalker and creature" aspect of it. Just the overkill is great to me, even if it was 7 mana to play

I get it just feels underwhelming compared to all the other mythics of the set, honestly.

[Tvtyrant]

That is interesting. Personally when i think mythic, i think Star of Extinctions levels of fun, mostly because i love just "deal 20 damage to every planeswalker and creature" aspect of it. Just the overkill is great to me, even if it was 7 mana to play

I get it just feels underwhelming compared to all the other mythics of the set, honestly.

It has a ton of text, so I think it is more New World Order stuff. Bounces, comes in from exile, flash, flying.

[Techwarrior]

Right, sidegrade. Echoing truth and boomerang make up for card disadvantage by versatility, Brazen does by giving you a good body. They are tempo bounce cards with upside, echoing truth and boomerang upsides are more situational but stronger in those.

Right. I get what you're saying. I'm telling you that you're wrong.

Echoing truth doesn't get played in decks that give a rip about a 3/1 flyer. If you've registered the card Echoing Truth, it's because you're trying to combo your opponent out and need a bounce spell for hate pieces. If you're in a situation where the 3/1 flyer side of that card looks interesting in your combo deck you've already lost that game.

I'm not saying the card is bad; I'm telling you it's not a bounce spell replacement. The card is a different version of Vendillion Clique, and will most likely find a home in decks that want to play extra copies of Vendillion Clique.

[Tvtyrant]

Right. I get what you're saying. I'm telling you that you're wrong.

Echoing truth doesn't get played in decks that give a rip about a 3/1 flyer. If you've registered the card Echoing Truth, it's because you're trying to combo your opponent out and need a bounce spell for hate pieces. If you're in a situation where the 3/1 flyer side of that card looks interesting in your combo deck you've already lost that game.

I'm not saying the card is bad; I'm telling you it's not a bounce spell replacement. The card is a different version of Vendillion Clique, and will most likely find a home in decks that want to play extra copies of Vendillion Clique.

Merfolk is the same meta share as storm and bounces between echoing truth, vapor snag, boomerang and now Brazen Borrower as an answer/tempo card.

[Fable Wright]

Merfolk is the same meta share as storm and bounces between echoing truth, vapor snag, boomerang and now Brazen Borrower as an answer/tempo card.

Merfolk is a very mana-starved deck. It can't afford to pay 2 to cast Boomerang, much less two and then 3 for a creature that doesn't get any synergy from lord effects. I honestly thing that the best card to compare Brazen Borrower to is Remand. You cast it on turn 2 to make an opponent waste a turn without losing card advantage. Its meta share is 'decks running both Remand and Vendilion Clique' as copies 5-6 of each card. If UWR Control becomes a deck again, I could see them playing a copy or two despite the non-synergy with Snapcaster.

It is absolutely not comparable to Echoing Truth. Full stop. Echoing Truth is a hard answer card; Remand and Brazen Borrower are tempo cards with card parity.

[Eurus]

I think Borrower is pretty darn solid for a certain sort of control deck, it's just that this isn't really the best standard format for that sort of deck. It can be a two mana bounce, a three mana flash flier, or in the later game you can get both effects in one turn for a pretty significant board presence swing at instant speed.

But, well. T3feri and Field of the Dead are kinda skewing the nature of what sorts of decks are viable right now.

[Spore]

I feel Borrower is good when you have very good prediction skills or have cards rhat allow you to see and discard your opponents hand. (Thought Erasure, Drill Bit, that {B} sorcery non creature discard, I forgot the name of).

[Marywn]

I pulled a promo Royal Scions, and now I've started looking at making a deck based off of drawing a 2nd card for a standard deck.

Does anyone have any recommendations for cards that could be used?

[Sizzlefoot]

Does anyone have any general advice for playing blue/green/black?

[Emmerlaus]

Does anyone have any general advice for playing blue/green/black?

The colors are of second importance. You should point out the format first.

In any case, lands that can give more then one kind of colored mana are your friends.

[enderlord99]

My current deck is sort of a control deck, but it has no actual counterspells.

It has been winning decently often.

[Togath]

So... Eldraine has a few cards that can do a bit of milling. Any thoughts on how they'd do in a constructed format? I see a lot of folks salty at them in drafts and sealed and such, but I'm not sure if they mill enough to have an impact elsewhere.

[Silfir]

Look for a recent video by the youtube channel MTG Goldfish, titled "Budget Magic: Mono-Blue Mill" to give you an idea of how mill can work in the current Standard format.

[Spore]

So... Eldraine has a few cards that can do a bit of milling. Any thoughts on how they'd do in a constructed format? I see a lot of folks salty at them in drafts and sealed and such, but I'm not sure if they mill enough to have an impact elsewhere.

Merchant's Countermill is insanely evil fun and it RUINS Simic Flash if played properly (a boon in and of itself).

Spoiler: Decklist

Show

1 Island (XLN) 267
1 Island (M19) 268
4 Overwhelmed Apprentice (ELD) 60
2 Island (ELD) 257
3 Swamp (ELD) 261
4 Didn't Say Please (ELD) 42
4 Thought Collapse (RNA) 57
4 Drown in the Loch (ELD) 188
4 Drowned Secrets (GRN) 39
1 Swamp (M20) 270
1 Swamp (WAR) 258
4 Mystic Sanctuary (ELD) 247
1 Island (WAR) 255
4 Merfolk Secretkeeper (ELD) 53
4 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
2 Castle Vantress (ELD) 242
4 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
4 Murderous Rider (ELD) 97
4 Thought Erasure (GRN) 206

If you play an Eldraine Sealed thing, you will probably want the synergies that work around a filled graveyard more than the actual mill as a win con. Vantress Gargoyle is a very nice card for that.

Though Secretkeepers and "Didn't Say Please"/Thought Collapse is also VERY nice.

[Ninjaman]

I pulled a promo Royal Scions, and now I've started looking at making a deck based off of drawing a 2nd card for a standard deck.

Does anyone have any recommendations for cards that could be used?

Here's a list

[Douglas]

How to deal with Sarkhan the Masterless when you have Teferi on the board: Do not bounce the dragon token. Instead, use +1, wait for Sarkhan to turn himself into a dragon, and then Time Wipe. My opponent conceded after that.

[noob]

My current deck is sort of a control deck, but it has no actual counterspells.

It has been winning decently often.

Do you count discarding as a form of control?
Or does cards that makes life harder counts as control for you?(thinking about the cards that gives unkeep costs to creatures and stuff like that)
also which format?

[enderlord99]

Do you count discarding as a form of control?

No, though that would synergize well with what I'm using.

Or does cards that makes life harder counts as control for you?(thinking about the cards that gives unkeep costs to creatures and stuff like that)

That's basically it. Mostly bounce spells, but also that "animated Go-Pharaoh's Statue + Helm of the Host" combo I mentioned earlier. While it isn't really "control-ish" like the bounce spells themselves are, I have 4 copies of Eyes Everywhere and will often trade them to my opponent then bounce them back into my hand to do it all over again.

Like I said, it's only sort of Control.

also which format?

Historic.