Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Tom the Mime]

One of the other things I've seen with Oko is a lot of decks that can deal with him or neglect his impact a bit tend to have big issues with the 4-drops that then back him up - ceratops, wicked wolf or questing beast depending on what they side in against you. Elking always feels like it should be a -1 loyalty ability at least, especially on a 3-drop and the sheer versatility.

So would "Kharn card fetcher(that can fetch from out of the game) + storage land + 0 cost wall" work correctly?
It seems it would take a bunch of attacks from the 2 goblin deck until it can fetch a second wall then it would be guaranteed victory.
Can I see more decks based on storage lands that works fine against the double goblin deck?

With a slight modification to a good deck the first time round (it's in the old thread so it's not exposing any hidden strategies), Chancellor of the Annex, Strip mine, Icatian Store. Chancellor counters the first goblin, strip mine takes out the land before the next one comes out and you've got all the time in the world for the storage land to get out the Chancellor. The storage land isn't doing the heavy lifting here but it's a way of getting an extra use out of the chancellor which isn't it's main use. It's not the best option as it's still weak to discard and land destruction, both of which are likely to still be around after Chancellor wins and gets banned early on. Rushwood Grove, Ensnaring Bridge, Roar of the Wurm works too and is a little less vulnerable to disruption for the threat.
Anything that can get a 3/3 out before turn 5 does fine against the goblins, which isn't hard for storage lands. The biggest threat for storage lands is always land destruction if it's around, then discard, then bounce effects (looking at Karakas).

[enderlord99]

Someone just managed to ramp over the Trampoline Museum, even after it was fully set up.

Itlimoc + Tendershoot Dryad =

[noob]

Someone just managed to ramp over the Trampoline Museum, even after it was fully set up.

Itlimoc + Tendershoot Dryad =

what was the trampoline museum?

[enderlord99]

what was the trampoline museum?

It's a tempo-combo Historic deck I made. The relevant portion of the deck is the core combo of God-Pharaoh's Statue + Animating Fairy + Helm of the Host; it creates a huge collection of Statues (hence the "Museum" part of the deck-title) and is basically just mana-denial or anti-ramp.

[Techwarrior]

Honestly, how much less obnoxious would oko be if he never came down t2? I was really excited for lanowar elf to leave the format, only for them to print one that's just better in the new format. Like WTH wotc? I still think the fact that both of you abilities are plus, with his starting loyalty would be problematic. I do think it would be much less of a problem though.

tl;dr

Stop putting one Mana acceleration in standard.

----

I'm also incredibly upset with the Pioneer format. Not for any sins it commits in particular (although Thoughtseize, Jace, Lili is going to be tough for any mid-range deck to beat). I'm honestly ticked that this wasn't what they did with Historic. Thanks wotc, now I know for sure my rotating cards in standard aren't doing anything ever. They still haven't done anything to support Historic on arena, but Pioneer is already on the PT. Ugh.

Between this, and the blizzard fiasco I'm just so turned off from the two hobbies I had that I found fun up until recently.

[Ninjaman]

Honestly, how much less obnoxious would oko be if he never came down t2? I was really excited for lanowar elf to leave the format, only for them to print one that's just better in the new format. Like WTH wotc? I still think the fact that both of you abilities are plus, with his starting loyalty would be problematic. I do think it would be much less of a problem though.

tl;dr

Stop putting one Mana acceleration in standard.

Llanowar elves was never the problem, the stuff you could play with it was.
Back in Scars/Innistrad and Innistrad/Return we had multiple mana dorks and people didn't complain.
You do realize how excited people were to have Llanowar Elves back in standard, right?
Using a card and your first turn to have three mana on turn 3 is only too good if the three mana card is too good.

I'm also incredibly upset with the Pioneer format. Not for any sins it commits in particular (although Thoughtseize, Jace, Lili is going to be tough for any mid-range deck to beat). I'm honestly ticked that this wasn't what they did with Historic. Thanks wotc, now I know for sure my rotating cards in standard aren't doing anything ever. They still haven't done anything to support Historic on arena, but Pioneer is already on the PT. Ugh.

Maybe it's because Pioneer is a way more interesting format.

[Androgeus]

I'm also incredibly upset with the Pioneer format. Not for any sins it commits in particular (although Thoughtseize, Jace, Lili is going to be tough for any mid-range deck to beat). I'm honestly ticked that this wasn't what they did with Historic. Thanks wotc, now I know for sure my rotating cards in standard aren't doing anything ever. They still haven't done anything to support Historic on arena, but Pioneer is already on the PT. Ugh.

Historic only exists so people don’t feel their cards are useless post rotation on arena. Wizards has no real interest in supporting it. I don’t think they really want people playing it, see the initial plan to make non-standard rares cost 2 wild cards to craft.

Between this, and the blizzard fiasco I'm just so turned off from the two hobbies I had that I found fun up until recently.

If it matters Wizards seem to be on the other side of the Blizzard fiasco.

[Eurus]

Maybe it's because Pioneer is a way more interesting format.

I mean, I don't disagree, but Arena doesn't have Pioneer either and almost certainly won't get it since they've shown no intentions of porting older sets back to Arena. We don't even have Amonkhet and Kaladesh back, they already had those in the closed beta before they removed them.

So it's less "ugh why is Pioneer getting attention and Historic isn't" and more "good lord MTGA please give us literally anything that isn't Standard". Hopefully it's just a matter of time, but it's hard to stay optimistic.

[Ninjaman]

So would "Kharn card fetcher(that can fetch from out of the game) + storage land + 0 cost wall" work correctly?
It seems it would take a bunch of attacks from the 2 goblin deck until it can fetch a second wall then it would be guaranteed victory.

For outside the game effects you have a sideboard of 3 cards.

Can I see more decks based on storage lands that works fine against the double goblin deck?

Here are some
Red storage land, red storage land, Inferno Titan
Red storage land, Lightning Bolt, Drooling Ogre
Black storage land, Black storage land, Grave Titan
Black storage land, Vampire Nighthawk, Doom Blade
Blue storage land, blue storage land, Merfolk Seastalkers
Blue storage land, Labyrinth Guardian, Air Elemental
White storage land, White storage land, Leonin Warleader
White storage land, War Horse, Crested Sunmare
Green storage land, Green storage land, Grizzly Fate
Green storage land, Sylvan Advocate, Ant Queen

Blue storage land, White storage land, Aven Wind Guide
White storage land, Green storage land, Conclave Cavalier
Green storage land, Red storage land, Huntmaster of the Fells
Red storage land, Black storage land, Olivia Voldaren
Black storage land, Blue storage land, Shipwreck Singer
Black storage land, White storage land, Aryel, Knight of Windgrace
White storage land, Red storage land, Aurelia, Exemplar of Justice
Red storage land, Blue storage land, Whirler Virtuoso
Blue storage land, Green storage land, Shapers of Nature
Green storage land, Black storage land, Slimefoot, the Stowaway

Any two storage lands, Wurmcoil Engine

Turns out there are several different things the goblins can't beat.

[LansXero]

I mean, I don't disagree, but Arena doesn't have Pioneer either and almost certainly won't get it since they've shown no intentions of porting older sets back to Arena. We don't even have Amonkhet and Kaladesh back, they already had those in the closed beta before they removed them.

So it's less "ugh why is Pioneer getting attention and Historic isn't" and more "good lord MTGA please give us literally anything that isn't Standard". Hopefully it's just a matter of time, but it's hard to stay optimistic.

Being salty about 'losing' cards that didnt cost anything to rotation isnt going to get Arena players any support from paper players, who are still the largest bulk of WotC's customer base (not players, freeloaders in Arena dont matter to the bottomline, only to pad stats and lure in whales).

[Tvtyrant]

Being salty about 'losing' cards that didnt cost anything to rotation isnt going to get Arena players any support from paper players, who are still the largest bulk of WotC's customer base (not players, freeloaders in Arena dont matter to the bottomline, only to pad stats and lure in whales).

Why though? Pauper showed that having a supported online format can lead to it transferring to paper, and the popularity with free players helps get people in the door. Arena is good for paper.

[LansXero]

Why though? Pauper showed that having a supported online format can lead to it transferring to paper, and the popularity with free players helps get people in the door. Arena is good for paper.

Pauper is made for kids / broke people who can only afford commons, so they can be lied to and preyed by people with extensive outdated collections. As for giving Arena a non-rotating format, or a way to 'salvage' rotating cards, no dice; WotC wants you on those Standard queues to pad active player count and whatnot.

[Tvtyrant]

That is basically the argument people made about Modern when it was invented, and it is the most popular format after EDH. I don't buy that argument, WotC is responding to people's desire to keep using their cards and has been since Legacy was invented.

[LansXero]

That is basically the argument people made about Modern when it was invented, and it is the most popular format after EDH. I don't buy that argument, WotC is responding to people's desire to keep using their cards and has been since Legacy was invented.

Because the physical cards already exist and need to get used. Coding them up for Arena though, its not quite the same, as it would involve investing into diluting a player base that you need concentrated and focused.

[Eurus]

Because the physical cards already exist and need to get used. Coding them up for Arena though, its not quite the same, as it would involve investing into diluting a player base that you need concentrated and focused.

I honestly dunno how true that is. Arena definitely pulls in a lot of people that don't play paper magic and probably can't afford to start, so the playerbases can't fully overlap. The question is whether people are actually dropping paper to switch to Arena, and I have no idea if they are.

[LansXero]

I honestly dunno how true that is. Arena definitely pulls in a lot of people that don't play paper magic and probably can't afford to start, so the playerbases can't fully overlap. The question is whether people are actually dropping paper to switch to Arena, and I have no idea if they are.

According to most stores, a ton more people are trying stuff in Arena than getting jank singles for random events, so thats not nothing. Also, pre-releases are hurting because everything is on Arena long before its on paper.

But even for Arena only players, in order for it to remain as the quick fix kind of game that it needs to be to succeed, you cant dilute the online player base into too many formats. Broke players will keep their rotated cards into their rotaformat queues, thus hurting the wait time of the players you actually care about, those who spend to chase the latest craze. Since the place of the poor is to be grist on the mill for the whales, Historic is as much of a bone as Id expect WotC to throw them.

[Spore]

According to most stores, a ton more people are trying stuff in Arena than getting jank singles for random events, so thats not nothing. Also, pre-releases are hurting because everything is on Arena long before its on paper.

I mean it has been obvious for longer than the Web 2.0 exists that Wizards does not like reselling of their products. They have long since forbidden most LGS to resell their books but they can't really do that for cards here. They are categorized as games, not books in Germany, so while a company may resell toys and games, they may not do so with books (like their 3.5 source books).

Now they've found an avenue to booth LGS out of the business of small scale reselling. Their problem is that they need that infrastructure to host stuff like small Magic tournaments, FNM, D&D's Adventurer's League and so on. So they're not going as aggressively against that. If I weren't so incredibly fearful of new situations (and if they LGS owners were a bit customer oriented where I am from) I would've probably joined a few games by now.

But as a customer I felt like I was in the way of their important warhammer nerdery.

Spoiler: Rant about my LGS

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Seriously tho, one guy sat at the register, not bothered by me not finding anything, while his friend cited stuff from a WH40k source book and what's wrong, aka IRL cosplaying Comic Book guy from the Simpsons. I get that they can't have any color in existence in their small shop but half the stuff was sold out, I couldn't even get sleeves in all three primary colors (not to mention in all 5 magic colors). Their shop is a sloppy mess, they even sold me a clash pack (which outed me as a new customer since it's value is garbage) without at least showing me other product. I work in customer service and I wanted to work at a LGS for so long. And if I see those DOLTS ruining their shop, I could've done better.

The shop needs something outside to get new customers inside. A sign on the street. Displays in front of the shop. The whole shop needs to be sorted properly. Their shelving is the nightmare of anyone working in middle managment. Cheap stuff is displayed front and center, expensive flagship items are hidden away. At least the warhammer color palette was way in the back forcing you to walk by the other product. You need actual STOCK in there too. You can't order stuff and expect people to come over a second time for standard stuff like sleeves, I realize a hyperspecialized order cannot be there.

People always complain that local business is dying but have they seen how poorly local business adapts?

[Eurus]

Yeah, WotC doesn't actually profit from the secondary market, and I get the worrying feeling that they're shifting a lot of their focus from LGS events to esports.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Brawl is on Arena, and I never realised just how different singleton deck building is. I mean, I always considered my collection decent enough but the inability to run 4x the best thing is a new experience.

Not bad, just different. And picking a commander is a lot harder than I thought. Time to brew I guess.

[Spore]

Brawl is on Arena, and I never realised just how different singleton deck building is. I mean, I always considered my collection decent enough but the inability to run 4x the best thing is a new experience.

Not bad, just different. And picking a commander is a lot harder than I thought. Time to brew I guess.

I love it already. The main thing I saw in my newbie PoV was that you can't STOP your enemy consistently. So weird, fun and powerful combos are a lot more likely to go off. But a problem I see rising could be that because it is 1v1, fast aggro decks could ruin a lot of fun if enough cards are given for these.

I breezed through my 5 wins on the event with a Ajani, Strength of the Pride. The first few opponents weren't extremely fun (they had a wonky deck held together with spit and duct tape), but the following opponents got their stuff together more. Deck building a mono white deck is straight forward enough so I could improve on that.

e: Aaaaand I played against my first Oko commander. Hot damn is it unfun having your demons and angels and dragons transformed into meese.

[Eurus]

I'm enjoying a general ramp/goodstuff deck with Kenrith, the Returned King. I want to figure out if Ayara can work as a monoblack commander but I'm not sure if she can.

[Spore]

I'm enjoying a general ramp/goodstuff deck with Kenrith, the Returned King. I want to figure out if Ayara can work as a monoblack commander but I'm not sure if she can.

Oh believe me, she can. Just throw out black creatures until your enemy keels over.

[Togath]

So... um... I'm trying brawl, and decided to swap my Oko deck for a Yorvo one, and what do I run into immediately? My first Oko-opponent!.. who then proceeded to spend their turn buffing my commander.

Spoiler: OKO DOESN'T REMOVE COUNTERS PEOPLE! >_<

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I feel... kinda bad, especially given they went around and did it by mistake again on the next turn. :P

[Karnitis]

I have a specific question about Entrata, the Silencer & interaction w/ a Volrath deck I'm building. TL;DR - does a State-based action go on the stack?

simple example: My turn, Volrath and Entrata on the board. Someone plays a Murder on Entrata. I want to copy her w/ Volrath and then sack Entrata due to the Legends rule before Murder takes effect. That sounds correct, right?

If so, what about this: Entrata attacks, does combat damage, then can Volrath copy her & sac her (from the Legends Rule) so she goes to the graveyard rather than losing her in my deck? Reason I ask is b/c it'll be easier to get her from the grave rather than to tutor her.

I read on EDHREC that Ninjutsu can interrupt her between doing dmg and getting shuffled, which gave me this idea.

P.S. I know this is probably overreaching, but w/ Volrath's instant-speed camouflage, is there a way for Entrata & Volrath to attack unblocked, Volrath to transform before the damage step so "Entrata clone" does combat damage, then the SBA applies to sack one of them *after* the exile counter is added?

[Douglas]

I have a specific question about Entrata, the Silencer & interaction w/ a Volrath deck I'm building. TL;DR - does a State-based action go on the stack?

It does not. No player has priority when state-based actions are checked for, and they resolve completely before any player gets priority again.

simple example: My turn, Volrath and Entrata on the board. Someone plays a Murder on Entrata. I want to copy her w/ Volrath and then sack Entrata due to the Legends rule before Murder takes effect. That sounds correct, right?

Yes. Murder is on the stack, Volrath's ability goes on the stack, Volrath's ability resolves, and Etrata dies as a state-based action before anyone can respond.

If so, what about this: Entrata attacks, does combat damage, then can Volrath copy her & sac her (from the Legends Rule) so she goes to the graveyard rather than losing her in my deck? Reason I ask is b/c it'll be easier to get her from the grave rather than to tutor her.

I read on EDHREC that Ninjutsu can interrupt her between doing dmg and getting shuffled, which gave me this idea.

Yes. Etrata deals damage, her triggered ability goes on the stack, Volrath's ability goes on the stack, Volrath's ability resolves, Etrata dies as a state-based action, Etrata's ability resolves and can't find Etrata so it shuffles the library without putting a card into it.

P.S. I know this is probably overreaching, but w/ Volrath's instant-speed camouflage, is there a way for Entrata & Volrath to attack unblocked, Volrath to transform before the damage step so "Entrata clone" does combat damage, then the SBA applies to sack one of them *after* the exile counter is added?

No. If Volrath copies Etrata before combat damage, then one of them dies immediately and deals no damage. If Volrath copies Etrata after combat damage, then the trigger event has already passed so Volrath's copy of the ability does not trigger. Combat damage does not use the stack, so there is no point where you have priority and damage has been decided but not yet dealt. Even if that were not the case, when the dead Etrata's damage is dealt the ability it would trigger is no longer in the battlefield so it wouldn't trigger.

Also, there is no "n" in Etrata's name.

Side point, the legend rule does not sacrifice anything. The extra copy or copies of the legend die, but they do not get sacrificed. Most of the time this doesn't matter, but it means that the legend rule does not trigger Mayhem Devil, or anything else that triggers on sacrifice.

[Ninjaman]

I have a specific question about Entrata, the Silencer & interaction w/ a Volrath deck I'm building. TL;DR - does a State-based action go on the stack?

No.

simple example: My turn, Volrath and Entrata on the board. Someone plays a Murder on Entrata. I want to copy her w/ Volrath and then sack Entrata due to the Legends rule before Murder takes effect. That sounds correct, right?

You actually don't sac it, but you are otherwise correct.

If so, what about this: Entrata attacks, does combat damage, then can Volrath copy her & sac her (from the Legends Rule) so she goes to the graveyard rather than losing her in my deck? Reason I ask is b/c it'll be easier to get her from the grave rather than to tutor her.

Yes, trigger goes on the stack, in response to that trigger you can copy her, then you have two of her and have to put one in the graveyard, and then the trigger resolves with her no longer being on the battlefield, so she stays in the graveyard.

P.S. I know this is probably overreaching, but w/ Volrath's instant-speed camouflage, is there a way for Entrata & Volrath to attack unblocked, Volrath to transform before the damage step so "Entrata clone" does combat damage, then the SBA applies to sack one of them *after* the exile counter is added?

No.
You attack with both of them. Before damage you clone her, then you have to put one in your graveyard to the legend rule.

[Karnitis]

So my apologies w/ the Etrata typo and use of the word 'sac.' But thanks for the help! Makes Etrata much more useful if I can keep her dead.

[Marywn]

I've been contemplating playing Naya in standard, But I've been conflicted on what to use. I have 2 Wildland PReservers, and have been thinking on how to use them

[Personification]

They have a new commander product, and apparently Taliesin Jaffe is now a Legendary vampire (in MtG. I think he always was in real life).

Spoiler: Taliesin "Baron Sengir" Jaffe

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[LaZodiac]

"A" new commander product.

There's like nine products they just revealed and one of them has 70 legends in it.

I'm super excited personally. We're GOING to get Hal and Alena now.