Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Gaius Hermicus]

Hey, making a Golgari Midrange deck for Standard play, and I would love some input on it as I am not a very experienced deckbuilder.

Spoiler: Decklist

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Creatures:

Gilded Goose x3
Paradise Druid x3
Syr Konrad, the Grim x2
Rotting Regisaur x4
Massacre Girl x2
Clackbridge Troll x3
Murderous Rider x3
Storrev, Devkarin Lich x2
Leyline Prowler x2
God-Eternal Rhonas x2

Instants/Sorceries:

Murder x2
Return of the Wildspeaker x2
Bake into a Pie x2
Spark Harvest x3

Planeswalkers:

Garruk, Cursed Huntsman x2

Lands:

Swamp x6
Forest x5
Jungle Hollow x4
Temple of Malady x4

I am avoiding the shocklands due to cost. Same goes for Questing Beast and the Great Henge. The deck's design is intended to be focused around powerful midrange creatures with a bit of ramp, and a strong graveyard subtheme.

Any advice on whether it looks competitive or not would be much appreciated.

[Amechra]

I guess this would be an appropriate place to ask about this...

I've been fiddling with a "for fun" format that I call Micro-Decay:

1) Players build 24 card decks. They may have up to one copy of any card other than basic lands.
2) At the beginning of the game, each player exiles the top four cards of their library face-down. Once everyone is satisfied with their hands, turn the exiled cards face-up.
3) Whenever a player would draw a card from an empty library, they do not lose the game. Instead, they lose one life for each player with an empty library.
4) Laboratory Maniac and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries are banned.

Does this seem even vaguely interesting to anyone? I just wanted to make a format based around tiny decks - the pre-game exile is so games aren't always so same-y.

EDIT: I've also considered dropping the maximum hand size to five for this format. Mostly so people don't get through their decks quite so quickly.

[Spore]

The deck is not competitive but it works. Your mana base will be your worst enemy though. And you forgot 4 cards. The deck is only 56 cards. I assume you mean 9 swamp/7 forest.

I feel your deck is a bit schizophrenic after playing it for 1-2 games. One part wants to be graveyard recursion and play with/ramp to Syr Konrad. One part wants to kill the opponent ASAP regardless of cost (Regisaur, Clackbridge, Rhonas).

I would decide for a theme. And I feel the cooler (and probably less expensive) way is Syr Konrad recursion. Find//Finality is a good tool, Order of Midnight, Command the Dreadhorde and ramp to Syr Konrad. Maybe Cauldron Familiar/Oven to round this out.

Basically you set up Konrad, then you manipulate the graveyard with Order, Find, Command to get Konrad's value. And even if they kill Konrad, you can recur him.

[noob]

I guess this would be an appropriate place to ask about this...

I've been fiddling with a "for fun" format that I call Micro-Decay:

1) Players build 24 card decks. They may have up to one copy of any card other than basic lands.
2) At the beginning of the game, each player exiles the top four cards of their library face-down. Once everyone is satisfied with their hands, turn the exiled cards face-up.
3) Whenever a player would draw a card from an empty library, they do not lose the game. Instead, they lose one life for each player with an empty library.
4) Laboratory Maniac and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries are banned.

Does this seem even vaguely interesting to anyone? I just wanted to make a format based around tiny decks - the pre-game exile is so games aren't always so same-y.

EDIT: I've also considered dropping the maximum hand size to five for this format. Mostly so people don't get through their decks quite so quickly.

Not only is 24 cards able to grant a lot of control on what you get(even with the one of each card restriction and the exile 4 cards at start) but I can hardly see the game lasting long enough for a player to lose hp from the card limit or to find itself unable to draw cards.
Unless someone got some sort of deck based on discarding and destroying permanents.

[Eurus]

Not only is 24 cards able to grant a lot of control on what you get(even with the one of each card restriction and the exile 4 cards at start) but I can hardly see the game lasting long enough for a player to lose hp from the card limit or to find itself unable to draw cards.
Unless someone got some sort of deck based on discarding and destroying permanents.

I'm not sure if the life loss instead of insta-loss actually helps or hurts control decks...

Anyway, combo would be risky with the four random cards exiled. So it'd presumably be mostly aggro versus control, and I'm guessing aggro could be pretty dang pushed in this context.

[Gaius Hermicus]

The deck is not competitive but it works. Your mana base will be your worst enemy though. And you forgot 4 cards. The deck is only 56 cards. I assume you mean 9 swamp/7 forest.

I feel your deck is a bit schizophrenic after playing it for 1-2 games. One part wants to be graveyard recursion and play with/ramp to Syr Konrad. One part wants to kill the opponent ASAP regardless of cost (Regisaur, Clackbridge, Rhonas).

I would decide for a theme. And I feel the cooler (and probably less expensive) way is Syr Konrad recursion. Find//Finality is a good tool, Order of Midnight, Command the Dreadhorde and ramp to Syr Konrad. Maybe Cauldron Familiar/Oven to round this out.

Basically you set up Konrad, then you manipulate the graveyard with Order, Find, Command to get Konrad's value. And even if they kill Konrad, you can recur him.

Thanks! I'll definitely take this info into account. I was thinking that it was a bit disjointed, although a lot of the "stompy" cards also trigger quite well with Konrad (Regisaur in particular). I was also quite worried about the mana base, good to see that I miscounted the cards. Those extra lands will certainly come in handy.

Not sure whether or not I want to go full graveyard or not though.

[Tvtyrant]

If you are going goose-> Regisaur it makes sense to then go -> Great Henge to me. That makes casting your fatties easier, gains you life and offsets the drawbacks of the deck.

[Fable Wright]

I guess this would be an appropriate place to ask about this...

I've been fiddling with a "for fun" format that I call Micro-Decay:

1) Players build 24 card decks. They may have up to one copy of any card other than basic lands.
2) At the beginning of the game, each player exiles the top four cards of their library face-down. Once everyone is satisfied with their hands, turn the exiled cards face-up.
3) Whenever a player would draw a card from an empty library, they do not lose the game. Instead, they lose one life for each player with an empty library.
4) Laboratory Maniac and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries are banned.

Does this seem even vaguely interesting to anyone? I just wanted to make a format based around tiny decks - the pre-game exile is so games aren't always so same-y.

EDIT: I've also considered dropping the maximum hand size to five for this format. Mostly so people don't get through their decks quite so quickly.

Have you heard of Vanishing Three Card Blind? There was a post about it a bit earlier in the thread, and it does take this idea to the extreme:

Your deck is three cards. Total. They all start in your hand. You don't lose from decking out, and all information is out in the open. We usually have 12 people or so in a round, decks competing round robin for the most points. All cards in the winning decklist, except for a few storage lands and basic lands, are banned for future rounds.

This seems like the ultimate idea you're building towards: Tiny decks, laser-focused precision, extreme deckbuilding restrictions, interesting meta.

[enderlord99]

What's the cheapest way, ideally in Simic colors, to give Flash to a couple sorceries? It only needs to last one turn, because you won't be casting anything else afterwards. They need flash so you can cast one while the other is on the stack (since you wouldn't be able to after it resolves.)

[Shadow of the Sun]

What's the cheapest way, ideally in Simic colors, to give Flash to a couple sorceries? It only needs to last one turn, because you won't be casting anything else afterwards.

Cheapest in the monetary sense, or the mana-cost sense? There's stuff like Quicken, Alchemist's Refuge, et al. But Teferi, Time Raveller (which is UW) is probably the best way.

[enderlord99]

Cheapest in the monetary sense, or the mana-cost sense? There's stuff like Quicken, Alchemist's Refuge, et al. But Teferi, Time Raveller (which is UW) is probably the best way.

In the mana-cost sense. Quicken seems to be the one.

[Eurus]

Quicken only works for one, so if you need to get multiples, Emergence Zone might be your cheapest option. I have a funny jank deck using Wilderness Reclamation and Emergence Zone to flash out Finale of (whatever) effects.

[enderlord99]

Quicken only works for one, so if you need to get multiples, Emergence Zone might be your cheapest option. I have a funny jank deck using Wilderness Reclamation and Emergence Zone to flash out Finale of (whatever) effects.

I only really need it for one; I'd cast either Eternal Dominion or Endless Swarm normally, then Quicken the other of the two in response to myself.

Ideally I'd already also have a certain emblem up.

[Ninjaman]

Ideally I'd already also have a certain emblem up.

You won't.

[Androgeus]

If you want to do something silly with epic spells, look to the ‘splice onto instant or sorcery’ spells from Modern Horizons. If you splice one on to an epic spell, then each future copy of will also have the spliced text.

[DeTess]

You won't.

I'm with ninjaman on this one. That Tezzeret needs 5 turns to ult unless you bring some serious shenanigans. If you can protect him for 5 turns, you've probably already won.

[Spore]

You won't.

Consistent ulting with that card can only be achieved by Elderspelling two Planeswalkers into playing Tezzeret. So you better play Esper.

[enderlord99]

Consistent ulting with that card can only be achieved by Elderspelling two Planeswalkers into playing Tezzeret. So you better play Esper.

Esper? Why do I need white?

[Eurus]

I actually did have an Esper planeswalker control deck for a while that would frequently win by getting a Tezzeret ult off because people would exhaust themselves dealing with the Teferis and Karns... >.>

[Ninjaman]

I'm not saying you'll never ult Tez. But of your plan involves ulting a planeswalker that is hard to ult, with a deck not made for ulting him, on top of something else that is difficult to achieve, then that's not a plan. Either of those should be able to win by themselves.

[Spore]

This video shows what I think of MTGA right now. Spark Double up to 5 Okos. And win.

Spoiler

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[LansXero]

This video shows what I think of MTGA right now. Spark Double up to 5 Okos. And win.

Spoiler

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It just got banned in Brawl. Give it time.

[Tvtyrant]

Is the problem Oko, or just the imbalances of Planeswalkers?

If there were a R "Deal 3 damage to target creature or 6 damage to target planeswalker" would it or most other planeswalkers be a problem?

[Eurus]

There's not even a red burn spell that's R-for-3 in the first place right now! Well, Skewer, but enabling spectacle against an oko deck isn't actually trivial.

I do agree that one of the big problems with planeswalkers, though, is that they're designed in such a way as to give immediate value as if the concern was that they need to be a net positive even if they get removed right away -- but there's very little removal available for them! Murderous Rider is probably the best, and that's setting you back three mana. Elderspell is a neat trick but it's pretty color-locked. Fry is a hilarious insult since it doesn't actually work, and Noxious Grasp is a godsend but still, that's four fifths of the color pie that has no answer at all to what's increasingly a meta defining permanent type.

It feels like removal in general just isn't as strong as it used to be, despite permanents getting even more valuable and more resilient. Control decks can't keep up by using counterspells, they have to use degenerate value engines like planeswalkers and high impact enchantments instead. Sigh.

[Tvtyrant]

There's not even a red burn spell that's R-for-3 in the first place right now! Well, Skewer, but enabling spectacle against an oko deck isn't actually trivial.

I do agree that one of the big problems with planeswalkers, though, is that they're designed in such a way as to give immediate value as if the concern was that they need to be a net positive even if they get removed right away -- but there's very little removal available for them! Murderous Rider is probably the best, and that's setting you back three mana. Elderspell is a neat trick but it's pretty color-locked. Fry is a hilarious insult since it doesn't actually work, and Noxious Grasp is a godsend but still, that's four fifths of the color pie that has no answer at all to what's increasingly a meta defining permanent type.

It feels like removal in general just isn't as strong as it used to be, despite permanents getting even more valuable and more resilient. Control decks can't keep up by using counterspells, they have to use degenerate value engines like planeswalkers and high impact enchantments instead. Sigh.

Yeah, and the proliferation of unremovable things isn't helping. Vehicles can't be targetted by sorcery speed critter removal, planeswalkers have never had decent removal, etc.

Spot removal should basically never cost more then what it takes out, because it doesn't progress your board state. When Vraska's Contempt was a format defining removal that should have told Wizards to tone down the proactive elements and strengthened the reactive ones. I guess they did print Assassin's Trophy as general removal, so that at least is a thing.

[Techwarrior]

Here's the issue at it's most basic.

Scenario A)
I cast a planeswalker, and use it to effectively draw a card.
You kill my planeswalker with removal.

I'm now up a card on this exchange. You used a removal spell, and my card replaced itself. If we keep don't this, you will eventually run out of resources.

Scenario B)
I cast a planeswalker, and use it to kill a creature. You now have to direct damage at my planeswalker, or it will bury you in card advantage.

I've 1 for 1'd you, but I've also 'gained life' from you attacking my permanent instead of me. 1 for 1s that gain life help control decks stabilize against aggressive decks quite well.

Scenario C)
I cast a planeswalker. You don't have an answer. The game ends because I bury you in advantage.

Scenario D)
I cast a planeswalker. You counter it. The game continues with 1 less threat and 1 less answer.

When planeswalkers are cheap enough to be removal, and are also viable card advantage engines (Oko, 3eferi), the game struggles because it's difficult to put viable removal for walkers below 3 Mana. If I resolve a 3 Mana card, and you have a 3 Mana answer that also resolves, we should be on even footing. These walkers don't allow that.

Basically, the worst case scenario for planeswalkers right now is 'it got countered.' That's not a good situation to be in when your threats are 3 Mana.

[Tvtyrant]

That isn't too different from etb creatures. Reactive decks traditionally play cheaper removal then the opponents threats and card draw to make up the advantage. No one can afford removal for all types though, and while artifacts, enchantments and graveyards have marvelous hate planeswalkers don't.

Compare <> "exile all graveyards, draw a card" to 2BB "exile target creature or planewalker."

[Techwarrior]

Right, but a 3/2 that drew a card is a fundamentally different kind of permanent then a permanent that requires specific removal that draws a card every X turns. Trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure they're both fruit, but one has a lot more acid to burn my stomach with.

[Ninjaman]

I do agree that one of the big problems with planeswalkers, though, is that they're designed in such a way as to give immediate value as if the concern was that they need to be a net positive even if they get removed right away -- but there's very little removal available for them! Murderous Rider is probably the best, and that's setting you back three mana. Elderspell is a neat trick but it's pretty color-locked. Fry is a hilarious insult since it doesn't actually work, and Noxious Grasp is a godsend but still, that's four fifths of the color pie that has no answer at all to what's increasingly a meta defining permanent type.

Just in standard white has Cavalier of Dawn and Conclave Tribunal. Technically it also has Ravnica at War.
But green should probably have a Bramblecrush effect in standard.

Lack of answers to planeswalkers is a general problem, but it is increased manyfold by the immense amount of design mistakes that went into Oko.

[noob]

People can do as a huge portion of meta decks: splash black for the sweet discarding cards(if the opponent discard their planeswalkers they are way less likely to play them) and also for some of the best removals.