Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Laughing Dog]

Yeah. Or they mulligan to 5 or even 4 and just draw exactly what they need, and you don't.

To be fair, I have mulliganed to 3 cards before and won. Admittedly, those three cards were swamp, cauldron familiar and witch's oven; still it was not a great start.

I mean, if you want a game without variance, there are plenty of them.

It's just something you've got to learn to deal with.

That is not the problem here. It is because they grab a minimal-effort, 'top-tier' deck, and then don't use it to even a fourth of it's potential.

[Tvtyrant]

I won a game a few weeks ago on 1 land on a mull to 4. Cauldron, familiar, drew the other three cauldrons and won off just 1 cat getting extremely baked. That was in Penny D but the combo is stupid good.

[enderlord99]

getting extremely baked.

That's a funny way of putting it.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a funny way of putting it.

I thought so!

I actually have been considering moving my Penny Dreadful Aristocats deck to modern. The only real difference would be untapped duals, and it can run pain lands just fine. Oust would probably become Path to Exile, but Penny is as strong a format if not as finished of one. After all how many modern combo decks are as reliable as solidarity high tide?

[Ninjaman]

but Penny is as strong a format if not as finished of one.

I highly doubt that's true.

After all how many modern combo decks are as reliable as solidarity high tide?

That's because they're faster. Penny high tide seems much too slow for Modern.

[mythmonster2]

Wow, another giant round of bans. In Standard: 3 mana Teferi, Reclamation, Growth Spiral, and Cauldron Familiar. In Pioneer: Inverter, Kethis, Ballista, and Underworld Breach. Rec and Teferi are also gone in Historic. I really hope this next year will be better for balancing, since it usually takes about a year for play issues to get back to design.

[Amechra]

Wow, another giant round of bans. In Standard: 3 mana Teferi, Reclamation, Growth Spiral, and Cauldron Familiar. In Pioneer: Inverter, Kethis, Ballista, and Underworld Breach. Rec and Teferi are also gone in Historic. I really hope this next year will be better for balancing, since it usually takes about a year for play issues to get back to design.

NO! GROWTH SPIRAL, WHY MUST YOU LEAVE ME?!?!?

*cough*

I think these bans are a long time coming, honestly.

[Tvtyrant]

NO! GROWTH SPIRAL, WHY MUST YOU LEAVE ME?!?!?

*cough*

I think these bans are a long time coming, honestly.

Twin is dead again! Long live twin!

Combo dominated formats don't do super well, so this is good for Pioneer. Pauper was like that in the early days, with Storm racing Invigorate Infect before countless bans fixed it and then ephemerate broke it again. Modern too, although I think Pod/Twin/Jund/Affinity was more balanced back in the day than Pioneer has been.

[Duos]

Just 0-3'd a double masters phantom draft on MODO.

First match, opponent went Plains, Mana Crypt, Ancestral Blade, Darksteel Axe, untap, second Blade, Abrade your blocker.
Game two, they went land, Flayer Husk, Mox Opal, untap, land, Golem Skin Gauntlets, Husk.

The match lasted two and a half minutes.

The following matches were against a dude who built eggs and recurred an oblivion stone eight times over two games, and a guy who built Cheerios and smashed me in two games with unblockable dudes covered in swords.

It feels...not great.

[Amechra]

Just 0-3'd a double masters phantom draft on MODO.

First match, opponent went Plains, Mana Crypt, Ancestral Blade, Darksteel Axe, untap, second Blade, Abrade your blocker.
Game two, they went land, Flayer Husk, Mox Opal, untap, land, Golem Skin Gauntlets, Husk.

The match lasted two and a half minutes.

The following matches were against a dude who built eggs and recurred an oblivion stone eight times over two games, and a guy who built Cheerios and smashed me in two games with unblockable dudes covered in swords.

It feels...not great.

Ouch. That doesn't look like a good draft environment.

[Gaius Hermicus]

Hello Magic: the Gathering players,

I could use a little bit of advice regarding a decklist I've got in mind. As the Ravnica sets will be cycling out of Standard in a few months, I tried to build this deck without including any cards that won't be around then. Not certain what the meta will be, but I just wanted to see if my deck could be competitive.

Spoiler: Decklist

Show

Creatures:
4x Fervent Champion
2x Goblin Arsonist

4x Heartfire Immolator
4x Robber of the Rich
2x Rimrock Knight

4x Anax, Hardened in the Forge
4x Bonecrusher Giant
2x Bolt Hound

4x Torbran, Thane of Red Fell

Artifacts:
4x Embercleave

Instants:
2x Shock
2x Scorching Dragonfire

Lands:
4x Castle Embereth
18x Mountain

Advice on substitutions, tactics, potential meta, etc. would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[madtinker]

My wife and I were talking the other night and somehow I mentioned that in middle school we had thought Magic looked like a fun game, but I never got into it. My wife said she had thought the same thing, but the cards were too expensive when she was a kid. So I am asking the forum, what is the minimum investment in Magic for two people to play and have fun? We have several other two-player games, but some variety might be nice. I don't want to end up collecting thousands of cards, but I would need enough cards that we can try different strategies and keep the game fresh. Also, what is the learning curve like? Could we have friends over and hand them a deck, or would it take several hours of instruction to be really proficient?

Are there editions that would be better for this than others? Can all editions be mashed together, or would i need to look from certain years? How good are the starter packs? Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

[Tvtyrant]

Magic's math is tricky due to the lands being part of the deck. This is why later card games like Hearthstone tend to just give you more mana as time goes on, or use other resources like actions.

The trigger and steps system is also fairly intricate, I don't know anyone who really knows what is happening in paper magic who hasn't played Magic the Gathering Online where it is spelled out to you.

You can make fairly cheap decks for playing, like $2-$5 that will be fairly balanced against each other. I made a thread on another forum with some examples a few years ago.

Those are probably out of date, usually the cheapest cards are commons from the latest 1-3 sets before enough get thrown away the price goes up. If you want I can make a couple for you.

I wouldn't worry about formats, the competitive formats are expensive.

[Gandariel]

Just play MTG:A, it's free.

If you really want the paper cards, look for a big deal, like some 5000 card bulk thing from eBay.
Or buy deck lists with cheap cards online.

If you want the paper cards AND to keep up with releases and stuff, I really don't know. I guess buy a box of packs? You'll have a lot of fun doing drafts

[DeTess]

MTG has released a product from time to time called 'duel decks' which is a pair of decks intended to be played against one another. You should be able to pick up one of these for under $25 dollar from places like amazon or specialized stores. This should give you an easy entry without needing to do any sort of deck building so you can find out if the general gameplay is something you enjoy. If you do like it, you could then invest the time and effort in making your own decks.

[Man_Over_Game]

MTG has released a product from time to time called 'duel decks' which is a pair of decks intended to be played against one another. You should be able to pick up one of these for under $25 dollar from places like amazon or specialized stores. This should give you an easy entry without needing to do any sort of deck building so you can find out if the general gameplay is something you enjoy. If you do like it, you could then invest the time and effort in making your own decks.

This is where I'd start, too. Or get the prebuilt Commander decks, as those have a lot of decent cards and diversity that allows you to build off of them pretty dang well once you get more cards. You could probably build 3 solid Standard decks for a noobie from two different Commander decks.

As for the learning curve, it can be a bit steep. The Stack system is probably what sets MTG apart from most other card games, and probably takes the most experience to learn, which basically works like this:

• John and Billy are in a match.
• John activates "Snipe" Ability, which targets a creature to make that creature attack something else.
• Billy doesn't want Snipe to work, so he plays "Burn", which deals damage to a creature. He plays this immediately after Snipe on the same creature, which would kill it.
• MTG rules of the stack state that the newest card to be played is the one that resolves first. Even though Snipe was played first, it gets its effect last.
• So Burn kills the creature, and THEN Snipe attempts to target the same, dead creature. Without a valid target, Snipe fails to take effect, so John just wasted his resources through Billy's cleverness and good timing.
• Good job, Billy!
  • If John could react with an ability that improved the health of his creature, so it could survive Burn before Burn's damage takes effect, John's creature would get to use his Snipe.
  • Suck eggs, Billy!

You don't need to learn the stack in order to play the game, you just need to learn it if you want to play it well. If you can understand my example above, the rest of MTG is a breeze to learn.

[Tvtyrant]

This is where I'd start, too. Or get the prebuilt Commander decks, as those have a lot of decent cards and diversity that allows you to build off of them pretty dang well once you get more cards. You could probably build 3 solid Standard decks for a noobie from two different Commander decks.

As for the learning curve, it can be a bit steep. The Stack system is probably what sets MTG apart from most other card games, and probably takes the most experience to learn, which basically works like this:

• John and Billy are in a match.
• John activates "Snipe" Ability, which targets a creature to make that creature attack something else.
• Billy doesn't want Snipe to work, so he plays "Burn", which deals damage to a creature. He plays this immediately after Snipe on the same creature, which would kill it.
• MTG rules of the stack state that the newest card to be played is the one that resolves first. Even though Snipe was played first, it gets its effect last.
• So Burn kills the creature, and THEN Snipe attempts to target the same, dead creature. Without a valid target, Snipe fails to take effect, so John just wasted his resources through Billy's cleverness and good timing.
• Good job, Billy!
  • If John could react with an ability that improved the health of his creature, so it could survive Burn before Burn's damage takes effect, John would get to use his Snipe.
  • Suck eggs, Billy!

You don't need to learn the stack in order to play the game, you just need to learn it if you want to play it well. If you can understand my example above, the rest of MTG is a breeze to learn.

Then you get things like costs not using the stack, not being able to respond to land drops or tapping for mana, etc. Magic not being designed for electronic use has a lot of weird complexities.

[Man_Over_Game]

Then you get things like costs not using the stack, not being able to respond to land drops or tapping for mana, etc. Magic not being designed for electronic use has a lot of weird complexities.

I do agree, it's not a perfect system, and it has some weird anomalies on what is or isn't allowed, but I feel like how relevant those are will line up with your experience with the game. By the time you're dealing with things like using Morph to get around timing triggers, you're already a pro that's looked up a few rules.

The only thing I think that needs to be learned early on that's very counterintuitive is that activated abilities can't usually be interrupted (which I honestly believe was a terrible design choice).

[enderlord99]

The only thing I think that needs to be learned early on that's very counterintuitive is that activated abilities can't usually be interrupted (which I honestly believe was a terrible design choice).

That only applies to mana abilities.

[Man_Over_Game]

That only applies to mana abilities.

I guess I mean that the source of the effect is independent from the effect.

I have a Catapult, and it has a "Sling Fire" ability that I use.
You try to stop the Sling Fire by using Lightning Bolt.
You kill the Catapult.
You can't stop Sling Fire, I already initiated it and it does what I wanted it to do.

But at the same time, Sling Fire can interrupt Lightning Bolt. If you cast Lightning Bolt on my Catapult, I can interrupt your use of Lightning Bolt to get my use of Sling Fire in so my Catapult gets value before it dies.

There is very little you can do to stop me from using Sling Fire, period. You'd basically have to find a way to force me into a position where I wasn't allowed to use it because the rules told me so (like not having enough resources, or making my target invalid after I already announced I was doing it).

In MTG, stopping things from happening is a lot harder than just applying more aggressive pressure.

[Silfir]

Makes perfect sense to me. If you destroy a catapult just after it has fired, the projectile doesn't explode in mid-air.

[Spore]

I feel Game Night is such a great product, but it is widely unavailable (you can purchase it on amazon for 35 dollars but the cards in the deck are honestly cheaper bought as singles on any decent magic site, IF you can bother to input the order for 300 cards).. It comes with five decently balanced decks for duels and multiplayer, but with a bit of work you can buy all the cards (cent values, so the whole bunch could come out as 15-20 dollars instead).

I dislike duel decks from the simple premise that I bought one and it was balanced rather unfairly towards one deck.

[enderlord99]

In MTG, stopping things from happening is a lot harder than just applying more aggressive pressure.

...Stifle costs just a single mana.

[Man_Over_Game]

...Stifle costs just a single mana.

Yeah, but I think it's like one of maybe 3 cards that can do that.

There are millions of cards, probably a hundred or so counters, but there are so very few things that directly interact with Activated Abilities.

Makes perfect sense to me. If you destroy a catapult just after it has fired, the projectile doesn't explode in mid-air.

Makes sense if realism was your metric. We don't summon monsters and cast spells because it's realistic, though - we do it because it's fun.

[enderlord99]

Is Castle Garenbrig technically the most recent Sol Land?

[GentlemanVoodoo]

My wife and I were talking the other night and somehow I mentioned that in middle school we had thought Magic looked like a fun game, but I never got into it. My wife said she had thought the same thing, but the cards were too expensive when she was a kid. So I am asking the forum, what is the minimum investment in Magic for two people to play and have fun? We have several other two-player games, but some variety might be nice. I don't want to end up collecting thousands of cards, but I would need enough cards that we can try different strategies and keep the game fresh. Also, what is the learning curve like? Could we have friends over and hand them a deck, or would it take several hours of instruction to be really proficient?

Are there editions that would be better for this than others? Can all editions be mashed together, or would i need to look from certain years? How good are the starter packs? Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

If casual gaming an investment of $50 dollars would do it. Enough to by some sort of pre-constructed decks and a few boosters for some form of customization. However, thing with magic is one edition does not stay relative for long. A new series or set is released every quarter so what you buy soon becomes outdated fast. MTG Arena is the online option and might be a better solution to what you are wanting. But as with MTG, the best cards are going to cost you and you will need a few to stay evently competative even as a casual player.

[Personification]

Early Zendikar Spoilers! Who else likes Evil Twin Jace?

[enderlord99]

Does Castle Garenbrig count as a Sol Land?

[Spore]

Hello Magic: the Gathering players,

I could use a little bit of advice regarding a decklist I've got in mind. As the Ravnica sets will be cycling out of Standard in a few months, I tried to build this deck without including any cards that won't be around then. Not certain what the meta will be, but I just wanted to see if my deck could be competitive.

Spoiler: Decklist

Show

Creatures:
4x Fervent Champion
2x Goblin Arsonist

4x Heartfire Immolator
4x Robber of the Rich
2x Rimrock Knight

4x Anax, Hardened in the Forge
4x Bonecrusher Giant
2x Bolt Hound

4x Torbran, Thane of Red Fell

Artifacts:
4x Embercleave

Instants:
2x Shock
2x Scorching Dragonfire

Lands:
4x Castle Embereth
18x Mountain

Advice on substitutions, tactics, potential meta, etc. would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Looks decent. Two things though. Heartfire Immolator is great, but it might potentially be too slow. Remember Chandra's Pyreling and Igneous Cur exist in the 2 slot as well with the latter having good synergy with Embercleave. Not a fan of Dragonfire as it cannot go face. But removal/damage spells are always reliant on the meta. I am a fan of Raking Claws x2, because people just forget it exists.

[DeTess]

Does Castle Garenbrig count as a Sol Land?

I'd argue 'no'. Once you've got a lot of mana already it might function as one, but the thing that makes actual sol lands so powerful is that they give a lot of acceleration right from the start of the game.