Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Tvtyrant]

So, taking bets something will get banned because of it? like 'we didnt think Oko would see play!' and 'we didnt think Companions would be broken!'

Changeling party tribal? It's not hard to get 4 changelings to power out the party mechanics.

[Amechra]

Hello, so hope this is alright to bring up in the MTG thread.

Because of virus nonsense my brother is currently living with me. He has recently expressed interest in getting into Magic, and has asked if I could go with him and help him pick out one or two premade decks so we could play in the long wasted hours of quarantine.

Here’s the thing, once I was really into the game. Played in tournaments and even one a few small ones. But I’ve not played since Invasion block (or maybe the one that came right after). So I was wondering if anything’s changed in the last twenty years of the game? I understand Planeswalker cards are a thing now. And have learned roughly how they work. But if I just go to the game store and pick up a few decks with my brother will I be thrown in for a loop?

Red still blow things up. Blue still make it their life’s mission to annoy everyone to death. Black gets zombies and steals everyone else’s gimmick but pays life for it. Green gets a bunch of weak things and then suddenly shifts to giant really scary things. And white makes themselves hard to kill.

That all hold true? If there are premade decks you guys know are there any that have a reputation for being very fun or recent sets I should avoid?

Anything would be helpful. Thanks guys.

If you can find them in your area, I'd buy a few Jumpstart packs. The basic idea is that you take two 20-card packs and shuffle them together into one bigger deck. Six packs would give you ~45 distinct match-ups without any extra work.

Of course, the issue there is that people have literally been snapping them up quicker than WotC has been printing them.

[Personification]

So, taking bets something will get banned because of it? like 'we didnt think Oko would see play!' and 'we didnt think Companions would be broken!'

I was talking about limited. For constructed, they probably expect people getting to 4 pretty regularly, though the fact that you need to for some effects is still a challenge.

So far, the thing I see as most likely to get banned (and it probably won't be) is the five mana tutor that, if you have a full party, costs 1 mana and lets you cheat out a 4 drop.

[Dienekes]

If you can find them in your area, I'd buy a few Jumpstart packs. The basic idea is that you take two 20-card packs and shuffle them together into one bigger deck. Six packs would give you ~45 distinct match-ups without any extra work.

Of course, the issue there is that people have literally been snapping them up quicker than WotC has been printing them.

Thank you. I’ll look into this.

[NigelWalmsley]

The party tutor seems win more. If you can stick four different creatures, you shouldn't need to tutor something up to win. You should be able to just kill your opponent, because apparently they don't have any removal spells in their deck.

Changeling party tribal? It's not hard to get 4 changelings to power out the party mechanics.

We have yet to see an effect that justifies playing a Modern deck that can consistently put out four Changelings, and that's the smallest format where you can combine Party with Changeling.

[Fable Wright]

Red still blow things up. Blue still make it their life’s mission to annoy everyone to death. Black gets zombies and steals everyone else’s gimmick but pays life for it. Green gets a bunch of weak things and then suddenly shifts to giant really scary things. And white makes themselves hard to kill.

That all hold true? If there are premade decks you guys know are there any that have a reputation for being very fun or recent sets I should avoid?

Things have changed a bit. Red cares about being fast; usually with cheap creatures that get better when you pair them with spells. (It's difficult to win without creatures nowadays.)

Blue still plays the control game, but now it can occasionally play very big creatures at the end of other players' turns, which is their usual win condition.

Black has changed substantially; life costs are now rarer. They usually have efficient creatures that can trade particularly well and card draw.

White has also undergone a tonal shift; it's one of the more aggressive colors nowadays, with small creatures stacking effects to become very big problems.

And Green does everything except bounce creatures and counter spells. (...Okay, there are green counterspells, but nowhere near as broadly usable or as common as the blue ones.)

The party tutor seems win more. If you can stick four different creatures, you shouldn't need to tutor something up to win. You should be able to just kill your opponent, because apparently they don't have any removal spells in their deck.

I play limited and EDH. I for one love this card, whether or not it's practical.

[Amechra]

The party tutor seems win more. If you can stick four different creatures, you shouldn't need to tutor something up to win. You should be able to just kill your opponent, because apparently they don't have any removal spells in their deck.

I have a feeling that you're usually going to be playing it as a Diabolic Tutor/Demonic Tutor. The times when you use it as a one-mana Hypergenesis/Restore Balance/Living Death from nowhere are going to be slim.

Also, I have to raise my eyebrow at the idea that having four creatures on the battlefield automatically means that you must have a winning board-state. It's entirely possible that your opponent is playing a deck that deals with your creatures without removing them from the battlefield (pacifisms, freezes, etc), or that your creatures are too weak individually to seal the deal.

[Personification]

The first new story article is pretty good, though it might de-canonize the teaser as it seems to be the same scene but with Nissa instead of Akiri and an elemental instead of Zareth.

One thing I find interesting is that they seem to have Nissa's Black personality come through with her trying to channel Gideon, because she looked up to his ability to be assertive, which is giving her a more ambitious and self-empowering personality.

There are some elements of where each character sits in relation to the others that I didn't really follow, but that is mostly because I refuse to read Forsaken.

[LaZodiac]

I really like the new story actually. There is some "Eeeh" with Nissa and Nahiri both knowing each others sins but I choose to believe their respective elements told them. Innistrad was like "some crazy ass revenge starved bitch hurt me ;_;" and the rocks of Zendikar told Nahiri "some stupid racist bitch unsealed the eldrazi ;_;" and characterization marched on for both of them.

I really really like how Nissa's black mana is showing here. It's brilliant.

I can explain the Forsaken stuff if needed/wanted?

[mythmonster2]

Yeah, I'm expecting a moment in the future where Nissa goes "What would Gideon do? No, wait, that's wrong. What would Nissa do?"

[LansXero]

I really really like how Nissa's black mana is showing here. It's brilliant.

It was always superweird how gatewatch!Nissa was all pure and flowers and sunshine and inner peace while also being a raging vampirophobe that got her world almost killed out of spite and racism.

[LaZodiac]

It was always superweird how gatewatch!Nissa was all pure and flowers and sunshine and inner peace while also being a raging vampirophobe that got her world almost killed out of spite and racism.

I mean again, characterization marches on. On the lead up to Oath of the Gatewatch a vampire flagged her down and was like, hey Anowan the Rune Sage, who you basically treated like a garbage cattle man, has been spreading the word of how you're the last hope for our plane. Please take these seeds that are symbolic of our desire to not die and plant them elsewhere when our plane ends. In that small sense, I will know peace.

And Nissa was like "ah **** I might have been a huge racist oops. I should fix this." and it's important to note that even in the Gatewatch stories there are times where she does a little racism here and there. She's unlearning things! It takes a bit. It helps that a lot of it came from a place of "living beings that are not plants confuse me" and not a place of actual like, disgust for different races. She felt meat in general was weird. Why be meat when you could be plant?

[NigelWalmsley]

I have a feeling that you're usually going to be playing it as a Diabolic Tutor/Demonic Tutor. The times when you use it as a one-mana Hypergenesis/Restore Balance/Living Death from nowhere are going to be slim.

What aggro deck wants a two-mana tutor that only works when you're ahead on board? Fundamentally, the effect is pushing you in a very different direction from the condition. The kind of deck that wants three or four creatures on the board is not the kind of deck that wants to be tutoring for specific cards in the midgame.

Also, I have to raise my eyebrow at the idea that having four creatures on the battlefield automatically means that you must have a winning board-state. It's entirely possible that your opponent is playing a deck that deals with your creatures without removing them from the battlefield (pacifisms, freezes, etc), or that your creatures are too weak individually to seal the deal.

How many constructed decks are relying on Pacifism as their answer to creatures? Similarly, while you certainly could put a bunch of crappy creatures in your deck to turbo this out from a loosing board state, I'm not clear on how that deck ends up being any good. You could cheat out the costless suspend cards, but is tutoring really better enough than casting them from your hand to justify playing a bunch of Mothdust Changelings in your Restore Balance deck?

[LansXero]

I mean again, characterization marches on. On the lead up to Oath of the Gatewatch a vampire flagged her down and was like, hey Anowan the Rune Sage, who you basically treated like a garbage cattle man, has been spreading the word of how you're the last hope for our plane. Please take these seeds that are symbolic of our desire to not die and plant them elsewhere when our plane ends. In that small sense, I will know peace.

And Nissa was like "ah **** I might have been a huge racist oops. I should fix this." and it's important to note that even in the Gatewatch stories there are times where she does a little racism here and there. She's unlearning things! It takes a bit. It helps that a lot of it came from a place of "living beings that are not plants confuse me" and not a place of actual like, disgust for different races. She felt meat in general was weird. Why be meat when you could be plant?

Its more author wishy-washing, happens a lot with tie-in fiction; it just was super jarring how it wasnt really acknowledged she had been elf hitler up to the point of chasing away the one guy with a chance of saving her 'beloved' plane. That they write growth now is cool and all but all through amonkhet etc. she was all peace and light and lesbian love.

[LaZodiac]

Its more author wishy-washing, happens a lot with tie-in fiction; it just was super jarring how it wasnt really acknowledged she had been elf hitler up to the point of chasing away the one guy with a chance of saving her 'beloved' plane. That they write growth now is cool and all but all through amonkhet etc. she was all peace and light and lesbian love.

On Kaladesh she literally brings up how she used to be racist and was like "I feel ****ty about it and am trying to understand people better". It takes her awhile to trust any of the Gatewatch, and truthfully she wasn't SUPER racist in Teeth of Akoum. Calling her the Elf Wolf isn't really correct either.

Also I think we can all agree Teeth is just a terrible book so we can diminish it's importance.

[Dienekes]

Things have changed a bit. Red cares about being fast; usually with cheap creatures that get better when you pair them with spells. (It's difficult to win without creatures nowadays.)

Blue still plays the control game, but now it can occasionally play very big creatures at the end of other players' turns, which is their usual win condition.

Black has changed substantially; life costs are now rarer. They usually have efficient creatures that can trade particularly well and card draw.

White has also undergone a tonal shift; it's one of the more aggressive colors nowadays, with small creatures stacking effects to become very big problems.

And Green does everything except bounce creatures and counter spells. (...Okay, there are green counterspells, but nowhere near as broadly usable or as common as the blue ones.)

Huh, interesting. I’m not certain about Blue getting more on top of control. But other than that seems interesting. I like that White got more aggressive.

A bit sad that creatures are dominant though, my favorite old deck was a RB burn/kill deck that had I think 3 creatures in the whole thing. But I’m sure it will still be fun. Thanks for the heads up.

[Fable Wright]

What aggro deck wants a two-mana tutor that only works when you're ahead on board? Fundamentally, the effect is pushing you in a very different direction from the condition. The kind of deck that wants three or four creatures on the board is not the kind of deck that wants to be tutoring for specific cards in the midgame.

This tutor would be very good in an Aggro/Combo deck, if there were a one or two card combo in the set, and I find it super likely that we will see a card that makes two different party members coming up. If you've stuck two creatures already and play Hypothetical Enabler, you could get in the situation where you can play up to four cards with CMC 4 or less in your hand for {B} by tutoring out other copies, and get your curve topper or combo win condition.

Huh, interesting. I’m not certain about Blue getting more on top of control. But other than that seems interesting. I like that White got more aggressive.

A bit sad that creatures are dominant though, my favorite old deck was a RB burn/kill deck that had I think 3 creatures in the whole thing. But I’m sure it will still be fun. Thanks for the heads up.

Bear in mind that Blue has lost out on efficiency in most cases. Counterspells now cost at least 3 mana, as opposed to 'free' from Daze. Card Draw is more expensive than e.g. Deep Analysis. It can do everything it used to, but now it's more expensive while everything else is cheaper.

[NigelWalmsley]

This tutor would be very good in an Aggro/Combo deck, if there were a one or two card combo in the set, and I find it super likely that we will see a card that makes two different party members coming up. If you've stuck two creatures already and play Hypothetical Enabler, you could get in the situation where you can play up to four cards with CMC 4 or less in your hand for {B} by tutoring out other copies, and get your curve topper or combo win condition.

So your plan to enable your two card combo is the three+ card combo of this + party enabler + two party members or this + party enabler x2? Sure, the hypothetical best-case where you tutor four times and cast sixteen mana worth of stuff for BBBB is nice, but that's not a realistic way to judge the power level of the card.

[Personification]

Happy Yargle Day!

[Tvtyrant]

Valakut Exploration looks great. Good value by itself, free card draw or damage every turn, plus easy to get lethal damage off fastbond and fetches. Or something like Lotus Cobra, VE, and Summer Bloom effects to add mana while drawing cards and just keep comboing off.

[NigelWalmsley]

Valakut Exporation isn't really a free card every turn, because it only triggers on land drops. What it does, effectively, is smooth your draws by letting you redraw every land. It's definitely a good card, but it doesn't have the explosive potential that Frenzy did.

[Fable Wright]

So your plan to enable your two card combo is the three+ card combo of this + party enabler + two party members or this + party enabler x2? Sure, the hypothetical best-case where you tutor four times and cast sixteen mana worth of stuff for BBBB is nice, but that's not a realistic way to judge the power level of the card.

So Melira Pod and Kiki Pod are primarily aggro decks who get better from being able to search out key cards. Occasionally they go 'oops, I win', but that's not the plan. They also just get value from being able to tutor out the right creatures.

I'm saying that this has the potential to go from two creatures to an 'oops I win' tempo swing in one turn; and when it's only a 2 or 3 mana demonic tutor in an aggro or midrange deck with a good creature density, you can tutor 1-of silver bullets game 1.

The ceiling is high and the value from a Demonic Tutor to bring out a silver bullet or synergy card is pretty consistently strong. I think it has a place.

[Tvtyrant]

Valakut Exporation isn't really a free card every turn, because it only triggers on land drops. What it does, effectively, is smooth your draws by letting you redraw every land. It's definitely a good card, but it doesn't have the explosive potential that Frenzy did.

No, it draws you a card when you play a land. That means you got two cards that turn. If it binned them it would simply smooth the card draws out, this is closer to Dark Confidant (but with combo upside.)

With fetches it draws two cards off of the new land, the damage is meant to cover for if you drew more than you could cast. It also ignores little Teferi, since it exiles instead of directly draws. It's a solid card, maybe too slow for modern but I'm willing to bet it sees some play.

[enderlord99]

It's almost 8:30 in the evening and I just now realized the Yargle Day joke.

I probably wouldn't have at all, were I not American.

[Personification]

They did the unthinkable! They canonized the teaser ad! (Mostly, the ad didn't include Orah or Kaza, but they are off screen for most of the story scene anyway, so that's OK.)

Is this what hope feels like?

[LaZodiac]

They did the unthinkable! They canonized the teaser ad! (Mostly, the ad didn't include Orah or Kaza, but they are off screen for most of the story scene anyway, so that's OK.)

Is this what hope feels like?

Rip Zareth he never scored.

Also there's like a 70% chance Kaza and Orah survive due to her wand surfing, and they can save Akiri too!

[Man_Over_Game]

Question for the MTG vets: What're your guys' favorite interaction keywords/mechanics?

For example, the Monarch mechanic adds a lot of interaction between all of the players, even against the originator! Building a deck around it is possible, but it still inherently adds risk while most other MTG mechanics reduce risk to the owner, so it makes the whole game a lot more interesting.

But effects like that seem to be pretty rare, even Monarch seems to be niche outside of specific drafts. Anyone got any examples of similar mechanics/cards? I'm not looking for anything strong, just fun.

[LansXero]

I'm not looking for anything strong, just fun.

And this, in itself, is as niche as it gets. Meaning fun / quirky jank gets forgotten about / doesn't sell product so its a once-and-done then avoided thing for WotC.

[Man_Over_Game]

And this, in itself, is as niche as it gets. Meaning fun / quirky jank gets forgotten about / doesn't sell product so its a once-and-done then avoided thing for WotC.

But...that's why I'm asking...


If it weren't niche, it'd probably be easy to know about. So I'm asking you!

[Amechra]

Weirdly enough? I'd go with good ol' Haste.

Haste is a keyword that I used to underestimate. "It only lasts for one turn", I thought. "It just lets you get in one more attack - what's the big deal?"

But the truth of the matter is that Haste lets you push things into the red zone before your opponent has a chance to pull out hard answers. It lets you pretend that any abilities that require tapping are ETB abilities, letting you get them in before your opponent can bounce/destroy/exile your dude. From your opponent's perspective, facing down a deck that has access to Haste-y dudes basically requires you to run blockers or instant-speed removal. It enables aggro strategies, and keeps control decks honest. There's a reason that Hearthstone ended up moving the mechanic from "your minion can attack the turn you play it" to "your minion can attack other minions the turn you play it".

In general, you can split keywords that interact with combat into three piles:

Puzzle Pieces
Mechanics like Goad, Menace, Provoke, or Red's unnamed "target creature can't block this turn" mechanic are fun and potentially make combat more interesting. They add interesting wrinkles to combat math, since they throw an unexpected spanner into the works. More importantly, your opponent still has answers - tapping a Goaded or Provoked creature saves it, for example. Unless your opponent's deck is very unusual, none of these mechanics inherently prevent your opponent from playing the game.

Tools
Stuff like Deathtouch, First Strike, Haste, Trample, and Vigilance each answer a different problem that a creature-based deck faces. How do you get around your opponent's sorcery-speed removal? Haste. How do you add more offensive pressure to the board while still being able to defend yourself? Vigilance. How do you deal with chump blockers? Trample. How do you deal with huge creatures? Deathtouch. How do you make sure that evenly matched combats go your way? First Strike. In combination with the previous group, this is what makes combat more than just numberslam.

Cheating Garbage
OK, sure, these mechanics aren't actually cheating, but they basically bypass combat entirely unless your opponent specifically accounts for them. This category basically includes every keyword other than Menace that looks anything like "This creature can't be blocked except by [X]". The reason that these mechanics are bad is that they require specific answers. If I have a deck with a bunch of creatures with Flying/Horsemanship/Shadow/etc and you aren't running creature removal or the specific answers to those mechanics... you'll have a hard time even slowing me down. It's even worse when you look at stuff like Intimidate, Landwalk, or Protection, which is either entirely useless or backbreaking, with no in-between.