Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Eurus]

For what it's worth, I think Blessing of Unity is probably fine? Unbreakable Formation and Heroic Intervention are the obvious points of comparison. BoU is on the strong side, but effects like that keep getting printed, so it wouldn't shock me to see it in paper. Forbiddance is the one that alarms me, since it's Spell Pierce in a color focused on more aggressive plays, which before even getting into color pie considerations is presumably exactly where you want a powerful early tempo spell like that. But I never actually played Spell Pierce anyway, so I don't really know!

[Ninjaman]

For what it's worth, I think Blessing of Unity is probably fine? Unbreakable Formation and Heroic Intervention are the obvious points of comparison. BoU is on the strong side, but effects like that keep getting printed, so it wouldn't shock me to see it in paper.

I think the question is less if it's too strong and more if it's too strong for uncommon.

Forbiddance is the one that alarms me, since it's Spell Pierce in a color focused on more aggressive plays, which before even getting into color pie considerations is presumably exactly where you want a powerful early tempo spell like that. But I never actually played Spell Pierce anyway, so I don't really know!

Spell Pierce was a good sideboard card in standard when it existed with mono blue aggro decks. Forbiddance is more likely to be supported as a sideboard card, but is a weaker card. It would need standard testing, but while I think it might be too strong in a specific standard environment, I don't think it is a too strong card on its own.

I think the card is within pie. Maro said this about counterspells in hist Mechanical Color Pie 2017 article:

Counterspell

Primary: blue
Tertiary: white

Counterspelling is one of the few abilities that's almost universally used in a single color. White dips its toe into the ability with taxing and delay-style counterspells.

This is both taxing and delay style.

[Amechra]

Your set is really weird, Ninjaman.

So, you have a pretty consistent graveyard theme in the form of Martyr, Sigiled, and their enablers. You also have some hate in the form of putting stuff on top of the library instead of into the graveyard, which feels like it should be in a set with a greater Scry density, but that might just be me.

And then you have Examine, which I don't feel fits with the rest of the set at all. Most of the subthemes in your set (graveyard matters, scry matters, two different weird tribals. tokens, spellslinging) kinda fit together if you try, but Examine doesn't mix well with any mechanic in the set other than Examine. And it feels particularly egregious because it's effectively a way of drawing a ton of cards without your opponent being able to interact with them, which is kinda gross as a long-term thing.

I'm also kinda concerned about how well Sigiled would actually play. The base rate is terrible and all of the payoffs are way too expensive. Of those 12 cards, I think the only one I'd bother playing was Library Sentry, and that's because it generally supports Scry. I think it's pretty instructive to compare it with Monarch, which is a pretty similar mechanic in many ways (it does something on your end step, with a defined way of shutting it off). Unlike Sigiled, being the Monarch is worth it by itself, doesn't require you to pay upkeep, and gives you a way to regain your Monarch status if you lose it. If there were ways to regain Sigiled other than replaying expensive cards, it'd be way nicer as a mechanic.

[Dienekes]

So amusing (to me) stories from Magic Arena.

I've gotten to Gold rank, which is probably not something that is particularly worthy of note, but hey I'm new I can enjoy it a bit. But more importantly, I finally got my Knights deck set up in a way I like it.

Some things I've noticed.

I keep playing pretty much the same handful of decks. I'd hoped that going online I'd see more diversity than what my circle of friends did back in high school, not dramatically less. It's somewhat disappointing.

I have had 6 opponents quit on me when I play a Fervent Champion on round 1. I have never had a single opponent quit on me when I have played anything else on round 1. I presume this is because they think I'm playing that incredibly aggressive red deck I keep seeing.

I've making a list of cards that seem to spell my doom. Essentially when I see interesting cards I've tallied how often I win/lose when I play against them. Currently the most successful cards against me are Scute Swarm (It just seems trivially easy to drop multiple lands a turn after you get this thing out), Ugin (I have lost every game I've faced an Ugin. Admittedly that has only been 3 games. One of which involved two Ugins. That was a pain), and Mass Extinction (Black board wipes, neat. Sadly seems a lot of good Knights have even mana or make tokens that will also get killed on even. Though this card was involved with one of the silliest games I've played so far, in which it was cast a total of five times. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.) With Robber of the Rich coming up close behind them (they basically seem to be the determining factor on if I win or lose against the red rushdown decks).

Still enjoying myself immensely. Though I think I've about reached that point where to get better at the game in its current state I need to start playing decks I don't particularly like. But meh, I'm fine where I am. Go knights!

[The Hellbug]

Ugin's kind of a weird one to mention there since most decks lose if an opponent manages to ramp out an early Ugin/play it as a win condition in control.

[Dienekes]

Ugin's kind of a weird one to mention there since most decks lose if an opponent manages to ramp out an early Ugin/play it as a win condition in control.

I pretty much just wrote down and then mentioned all the cards that I consistently lost to. And the card that I had a 100% loss rate to seemed an obvious inclusion there. Also got to mention the horrifying tale of beating one Ugen only to have the guy drop a second Ugen next turn. Which I thought was funny.

[Ninjaman]

Your set is really weird, Ninjaman.

So, you have a pretty consistent graveyard theme in the form of Martyr, Sigiled, and their enablers. You also have some hate in the form of putting stuff on top of the library instead of into the graveyard, which feels like it should be in a set with a greater Scry density, but that might just be me.

Putting stuff on top of libraries is a quite normal way to deal with stuff. I'm not sure why that would imply more scry. There is only two commons that put something on top of a library.

And then you have Examine, which I don't feel fits with the rest of the set at all.

Not every set mechanic needs to fit together. OG Innistrad was a graveyard set but had transform, OG Theros was an enchantments set but had monstrosity.

scry matters

There are literally two scry matters cards in the set, one at uncommon and one at rare.

two different weird tribals

Where do you see two?
All the weird tribal cards also care about instant and sorceries.

spellslinging

Spellslinging overlaps with weirds and UR examine.

And it feels particularly egregious because it's effectively a way of drawing a ton of cards without your opponent being able to interact with them, which is kinda gross as a long-term thing.

During testing examine proved comparable to martyr and sigiled.

I'm also kinda concerned about how well Sigiled would actually play. The base rate is terrible and all of the payoffs are way too expensive. Of those 12 cards, I think the only one I'd bother playing was Library Sentry, and that's because it generally supports Scry. I think it's pretty instructive to compare it with Monarch, which is a pretty similar mechanic in many ways (it does something on your end step, with a defined way of shutting it off). Unlike Sigiled, being the Monarch is worth it by itself, doesn't require you to pay upkeep, and gives you a way to regain your Monarch status if you lose it. If there were ways to regain Sigiled other than replaying expensive cards, it'd be way nicer as a mechanic.

Testing has shown that people overestimate how hard it is to maintain sigiled. It's important to note that the scrying helps you maintain sigiled, since it allows you to hit more spells.
All of the sigiled cards are good when you have sigiled enabled, and that's without factoring in the scry.

[The Hellbug]

Also got to mention the horrifying tale of beating one Ugen only to have the guy drop a second Ugen next turn. Which I thought was funny.

Woof. Reminds me of the Dominaria prerelease where, game 2, they knew my deck was big and dumb and was going to kick Slinn Voda. So I clear the board with it and they respond, kill it, and build a board real quick again. Then I kick out my second Slinn Voda. That was a magical prerelease; I've never played a deck I was so certain was jank and gone 4-0.

[enderlord99]

It's pretty clear to me that the Neverfolk were designed specifically to justify some of the strange official art from early Magic, and then the rest of Orestan was designed to justify the Neverfolk.

Those are both worthy goals, and seem to have been accomplished admirably.

[tonberrian]

I remember my OG Innistrad prerelease. I unpacked 3 Mayor of Avebrook, which was also the card you you got for just playing. There was a SILLY amount of wolf tokens flying around.

[Ninjaman]

It's pretty clear to me that the Neverfolk were designed specifically to justify some of the strange official art from early Magic, and then the rest of Orestan was designed to justify the Neverfolk.

Those are both worthy goals, and seem to have been accomplished admirably.

They weren't designed for that purpose since none of the early official magic art takes place on Orestan. I think some of those you're thinking of might actually belong on Xerex.

[enderlord99]

They weren't designed for that purpose since none of the early official magic art takes place on Orestan. I think some of those you're thinking of might actually belong on Xerex.

Turns out that, aside from Time Walk, they mostly take place on Kamigawa... to the extent that they take place at all.

[Laughing Dog]

Does anyone have some good recommendations for a Jund commander with a deck based around +1/+1 counters? Preferably non-human, but that doesn't truly matter.
Unrelated: is there a planeswalker in bant colors that can generally replace time raveler in pioneer/modern? I'm more looking at the flash (and it being a planeswalker) portion than the other bits. This is so I can (hopefully) swap out the banned Teferis in my Happily Ever After deck.

[enderlord99]

I know this is old news, but...

Spoiler: When you need to control a total of FOUR creatures in order to tutor something for (B)

Show

[mythmonster2]

And we just got a teaser of Kaldheim! No cards yet, but some art and two new planeswalkers, plus confirmation of Kaya and Tibalt. One of the planeswalkers, Tyvar Kell, is a Kaldheim elf who's hot-blooded and proud but loves to sing the praises of everyone around him, and has the ability to change natural materials into others. Possibly gonna be Green-Black, since that's what the Kaldheim elves are looking to be, but his description sounds like he might have some red, too. The other, Niko Aris, is the first nonbinary planeswalker, an athlete from Theros who defied their fate. They have magical javelins that can trap people inside them for a bit. They're mono-blue, but focusing on the "rigorous training" part of blue instead of the more cerebral side.

[LaZodiac]

I'm actually pretty sure Tyvar will be Naya colours, and Niko will be White-Blue. We'll see though!

Kaya coming in ready to double axe fight people as a half ghost lady on a plane where ghosts are definitely going to be important culturally is... gonna rule. She's basically a living Valkyrie! Tibalt is... very silly but I'm glad he gets to do things.

[Amechra]

Oh cool, an Enby with facial hair. I didn't think that I'd ever be represented in Magic :p

[Mystic Muse]

Oh cool, an Enby with facial hair. I didn't think that I'd ever be represented in Magic :p

I personally really do not like the beard, but I am not non-binary, so my opinion is basically irrelevant. It's not even something I'm unwilling to run because of aesthetics. I just don't care for it.

[enderlord99]

Niko Aris, is the first nonbinary planeswalker

No. Not first. Karn is agender and Ashiok is... well, something.

[Mystic Muse]

Karn is a construct, so they aren't realy representation.

Ashiok is villainous which has its own issues, and I don't know if their race hss a concept of sex or gender.

So, this is still relevant and significant.

[Amechra]

I personally really do not like the beard, but I am not non-binary, so my opinion is basically irrelevant. It's not even something I'm unwilling to run because of aesthetics. I just don't care for it.

I mean, I'll be honest and say that the soul patch does not look good on them. Soul patches rarely do unless you are a full-on beatnik.

It's just that when you do see representation, non-binary characters tend to be clean-shaven, because beards and mustaches are masculine signifiers.

...

Ashiok is agender, which is a different thing from being non-binary. To be a little overly reductive, an agender person doesn't have a gender, while a non-binary person has a gender but it doesn't "align" with socially recognized gender binaries.

[Dienekes]

Interesting they made the non-binary character in a set based on Norse mythology from Theros. Considering the Norse seemed to have had a concept of people defying gender more than Greece did.

But maybe they’re trying to avoid the historic connotations. By most accounts the “ergi” were not treated well.

Anyway, neat. Norse set. I’m curious how they’re going to do it, considering the lack of source material to draw from. Will they go the more Marvel route even though we know so much of what is in the popular concept of Norse myth is just plain wrong?

[enderlord99]

I thought agender was a type of non-binary, since it isn't in the typical binary.

[noob]

Since most classification using classical logic are binary(for example in the infinite category classification system that have all the categories ever including "consider themselves to be from whichever category is advantageous" and other odd categories) for being non binary you need to use a classification system that does not use classical logic or things that are or are not in categories.
So do not say "agender is a type of non binary" because you are classifying agender in a binary way (by saying that it belongs or not to non binary) and thus making it be binary (your sentence disproves itself).
Yes: the existence of a category system with all the categories (including stuff like "is a function from N to R" and many things that would not be commonly used) and which classifies each thing as being or not being in each category makes so that finding something that is not classifiable in a binary way is complicated.

[enderlord99]

Since most classification using classical logic are binary(for example in the infinite category classification system that have all the categories ever including "consider themselves to be from whichever category is advantageous" and other odd categories) for being non binary you need to use a classification system that does not use classical logic or things that are or are not in categories.
So do not say "agender is a type of non binary" because you are classifying agender in a binary way (by saying that it belongs or not to non binary) and thus making it be binary (your sentence disproves itself).
Yes: the existence of a category system with all the categories (including stuff like "is a function from N to R" and many things that would not be commonly used) and which classifies each thing as being or not being in each category makes so that finding something that is not classifiable in a binary way is complicated.

I already didn't understand the concept of "gender." This did not help.

[noob]

I already didn't understand the concept of "gender." This did not help.

I think modern people talking about gender uses linear logic for allowing to classify people as non binary(which is a binary classification) and not be self contradicting but it still confuses me.
I also think that the SJW system is meant for discriminating against the dumb and the people which are not aware of the current research (usually old people)
It is simple: for creating tolerance and unity unite people against a common opponent (in this case the ignorant and the dumb: those people are super often picked as opponents because they are less good at defending themselves)
Anyway nonbinary things can exist even with the infinite categories classification system but it involves logic that is not classical logic.

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: Another attempt at my ludicrously-expensive demon idea

Show

EDIT: I appear to have forgotten the phrase "that you own" needing to be part of the additional cost.

[noob]

Spoiler: Another attempt at my ludicrously-expensive demon idea

Show

Looks interesting but you should specify "visible face up" to avoid library summoning(it is visible even if you do not know which card it is)
Also it can make the game boring you and your opponent have no way to kill it.
Elzadri are a natural counter to it(annihilator works just fine once the opponent runs out of permanent) but not everybody wants to play Elzadri ramp.
Control decks would probably counter-spell it and die when they fail to do so.
Aggro would need to kill you before it is summoned.

Also specify it only works if you have it in your deck or else people would summon it from outside of the game (who cares about exiling already out of the game cards?) and have it only when it is useful for them and not have it in hand when it would be useless.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Another attempt at my ludicrously-expensive demon idea

Show

Casting from the stack actually sounds like a super cool mechanic.

[enderlord99]

Looks interesting but you should specify "visible face up" to avoid library summoning(it is visible even if you do not know which card it is)

I believe "visible" is defined in the comprehensive rules in such that a way that this may be cast from your library only if either this is revealed or you are searching your library.

Also it can make the game boring you and your opponent have no way to kill it.

It's not killing, but you do actually have a way to get it off of the battlefield briefly: cast it from the battlefield.

To address one of the points you edited in, you can't cast it from outside the game because the sideboard isn't a zone; you can cast it from exile as long as you have five other cards in exile, and those cards don't go anywhere since they're already in the zone they're being sent to.