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Thread: Ancient Realms

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Ancient Realms

    I suppose that this will be where I'll put all my ideas for my ongoing Homebrew Forgotten Realms Campaign.
    Changes
    Important People (Original PCs - like Elminster) are removed and replaced.
    There is no Weave. Changing to a New Deity of Magic - eventually.
    Tend to combine Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists.

    No offense is intended by anything I post

    Quote Originally Posted by karellink View Post
    2019-05-19 2:04 pm
    as a great dragon you must have the correct wisdom for these kind of shenanigans.
    Mark Hall said: It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

    >Me< This must be supported by all sides to remain effective.
    ************************************************** ****

    Warning
    Some of these Posts will be Really Long.
    (I'm working on reducing some)

    *****

    Note: this is what I use for "open games":
    my actual handcrafted World is a lot more complicated, and I'd need more resources to actually work on.

    Personal Comments were in Hello - but moved to here.

    Some things repeated from:
    Meph

    Name Those Monsters!! (Dying)

    9th (seems dead)

    Segev's Wheel

    For anyone wanting to consider helping me rebuild various Monsters:
    Monster tweaking

    I'm using this Faerun Atlas

    ******
    Note about my game: There are only three ways for any of the "Outsiders" (and all the Deities) to get true Power, and all of them revolve around getting Mortal Souls.

    A) When a Mortal dies, their Soul is pulled into the compatible plane.
    LG to "Symmetry" (Mount Celestia), CG to Wanderlands (Arborea), NG to "Tranquillity" (the Twin Paradises), LN to Mechanics, the Beastlands get all souls connected to Nature, LE to Inferno (Hell), CE to the Abyss, and NE to "Ereshkigal" (Gehenna).
    (Although I use Forgotten Realms, I don't have the "Wailing" Wall of the Forsaken. Lost Souls are usually trapped as wandering Undead on the Mortal World, and are considered "currency" by all Non-good Beings.)

    Note that both "Cannae" (Plane of Concordant Opposition) and Sigil does not "get souls" although any sentient being permanently captured by a Warring Faction or trapped in a Maze by the Lady of Pain does count for this purpose.

    B) The mortal has committed Moral Acts relating to a particular Outsider's "motiff".

    Or, for Deities, being a truly devoted "worshiper".
    (Which is why you don't find very many "Monstrous" Humanoids outside those Planes dedicated to them and their Deities)

    C) If the mortal has made a Deal that involves the classic "Selling your Soul" (knowingly or not) with that Outsider: Usually Fiends.

    Great Dragon
    A) That was for the default D&D Outer Planes.
    For my games, change the above to the "Prime" Alignment Planes, and those Souls with connections to one of the Mythos Demi-Planes go directly there.
    Asgard because give credit where due: really. Hel is linked, if not on the same Plane.
    * The Norse Giants have their Realm as a Demi-Plane in Beastlands, and serves much the same purpose.

    Olympus and Hades are also linked, if not on the same Plane.
    * The Titans are more Elemental-based versions of those Giants above.

    But, both of those Planes are more than just what most people refer to.

    Example: Olympus is more than a Mountain.
    (Sure, the top is Unreachable, even by all the Greek/Roman Deities)

    It's just that those Mortals writing about the place tend to focus on said Mountain. Because, you know, Zues (and Family/Friends) lives there.

    ****
    I just tend to give each Race their own "Demi" Planes.
    *****
    The interconnected "Mythos" Demi-Planes can border on being Outer Planar versions of a Material Plane. But, the Laws for their Respective Realm applies as per the normal Rules in the D&D Books. They are just connected via Permanent Portals, and walking through one might not be noticable.

    This makes traveling possible between the various Realms via non-magical means.
    ****
    Now, before I get too in depth in rehashing all the different Pantheons and their respective Deities, First I should step back a bit and explain some of my thoughts.

    Ok. I'll accept, and even use, most of the D&D Alignments

    "The Tree" is copyrighted by the Norse, and I'm not even fighting that battle!

    4e "The World Axis" - I'll be honest, I have yet to really get the picture for this.

    *******
    For the various "Evil" Realms of each "Mythos", these might be a Demi-Plane within the corresponding Alignment Plane, but still directly connected to their respective Mythos Demi-Plane.

    Like Nordic Hel would be a Demi-Plane in Inferno, but connected to Asgard.

    Time
    I have that the Prime Material Plane sets the Clocks of All the Outer Planes, usually at each Dawn.

    Yes, Time can be accelerated (or slowed) in relation to the Prime Material Plane, but takes the direct effort of a Deity - or the highest ranked Exemplar - of that Plane to do this.

    Direct confrontations between Deities outside their respective Demi-Planes are extremely rare.

    ****
    I'm lousy naming things.
    All help is greatly appreciated.

    LG - "Symmetry"
    Spoiler: Order vs Chaos
    Show
    Yes, I know about the oD&D thing where Order (Creation) and Chaos (Entropy) weren't Good/Evil.

    However, they tended to become Law+Good and Chaos+Evil in the head-cannon of most gamers; Which is why (IMO) Gygax went with the now traditional Alignment Chart in AD&D


    Dwarves get a Demi-Plane here.

    "Olympus" goes here.

    ****""

    CG "Wanderland" A less violent version of the Beastlands.

    Gnomes have their Demi-Plane here.

    "Asgard" is here.

    Yggdrasil is just how some mortals view the Astral Plane, because some people don't wanna think about an endless fog/sea.

    ****""

    NG "Tranquillity".

    Halflings have their Demi-Plane here.

    Elves have their Demi-Plane here.

    ****""

    LN Mechanus
    (Mostly because I can't think of a name for the Main Plane, and don't like "Balance")

    The Egyptian Pantheon has their Demi-Plane here.
    (Except Set - who is in Ereshkigal)

    ****""

    TN Cannae
    (Yes, I know it's Roman)

    - the Ultimate "I Don't Care" Dimension.
    There are no "Rulers of the Plane" here - No Exemplars and especially no Deities.
    The Lady of Pain doesn't leave Sigil, ever.
    Sigil is only findable by Portals.

    All of the of War Deities have their own Demi-Plane here. They are the only ones to care enough about who wins in a Daily Battle.

    Note: as mentioned, this Plane does not "get souls". Example: a PC "dying" here does not automatically have to join any Battle or Army.

    Valhalla (and similar Realms) is a Demi-Plane here, with the actual fighting going on in Cannae.

    ****""

    CN (ugh!) Beastlands
    Wandering Talking non-anthropomorphic Animals (although most of the Bipedal Animals do end up here) in the ultimate "Survival in the Wilderness" - and not just "Forest" - game.

    ****

    NE Ereshkigal (Yugoloths)

    Carceri is still here, but ruled by LE Fiends (Jailiers = type name?) less underhanded/intrigue motivated (more tyrannical, and lots more cruel) than Devils.

    Duergar have their Demi-Plane here.

    Goblin/Bugbear have their Demi-Plane here.

    ****

    CE Abyss (Demons)

    I liked Pandemonium being the Fiendish version of Sigil.
    But, being the Threshold of The Pit is also cool.

    Gnolls have their Demi-Plane here.

    Orcs have their Demi-Plane here.

    Limbo (?)
    Personally, I can live without Slaad.

    Really, near-Fiendish Frogs that reproduce via Xenomorphic methods? But, somehow exist in a randomly changing (Chaotic) unaligned (Neutral) dimension? Nope.

    If I'm forced to keep Slaad ("they're in the book!") they go into a Demi-Plane here in the Abyss.

    The Githzerai kicking their butts is still awesome!)

    ****

    LE - Inferno (Devils)

    Ok. I can totally get behind:
    Inferno replacing the Hells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Classic Fantasy Heroes in Hell
    You know the one where, by virtue of "being good", it was possible to physically fight your way out of Hell.

    This trope is so old, there are Fossils that call them Gramps!

    But, to me, this was simply not possible.

    Yes it was possible to achieve Redemption, but this was done by dint of staying true to yourself and your beliefs.
    Knowing when fighting was unavailable, and when combat was a moral trap.
    Hobgoblins have their Demi-Plane here.

    Kobolds have their Demi-Plane here.
    (Though, since I actually like Dragons (go figure) - I might try and work on their own Demi-Plane/s with altered Deities)
    Edit: might get their own "interconnected" Mythos.

    *****
    I'm seriously not able to cover every new "Race" now allowed in 5e.

    To me different versions of a Race
    (Humans, Elves, etc from Eberon, Ravnica, etc don't call for a different "Afterlife", unless tied to a specific Deity-using cultural Belief.
    In which case, use that Campaign's Outer Planes as the basis.)

    Centaur, Aarocra, Kenku, Tabaxi, Loxadon, Tortles, Grung, and whatever other Bipedal Animals:
    (It's the Revenge Return of the 3x Anthropomorphic Animals, just with type names!)
    Go to the Beastlands, unless dedicated to a specific Deity. Some somehow end up in the Feywild.

    Feywild
    I actually have this as a huge Demi-Plane in the Astral Plane, with close connections to the "Nature" parts of the Prime Material Plane.

    The Archfey rule parts of the Feywild, and can't prevent (but can repel and expel) incursions from any of the others.

    While there are Mortals that worship the Archfey, this does not grant them any real powers, and does not increase the power of the Archfey.

    For the Fae: I like to use a lot of the things from Jim Butcher with some additions of my own.
    (I'll eventually get around to the Fomor.
    Most likely trade Slaad (except not Xenomorphic) for them. Much cooler)

    There are three Rulers in each Court:
    Princesses: Aurora of Summer and Meave of Winter: the least powerful, but closest to the Mortal World. Still Tier 3 powers, so watch your step.

    Queens: Titania of Summer, and Mab of Winter.
    These are the movers of their respective Realms.
    While able to change things in their respective Realms, these are almost always temporary.
    They are more than a match for Tier 4.

    The Mothers live together and are mysterious beyond belief: and only the God/s of Nature outrank these two, and if they work together, maybe not even then. They can actually Permanently change the "Laws" of the Feywild itself.
    "What's this Tier thing you keep talking about?"

    I also have Oberon's Court.

    Meghan Chase the Iron Qween

    Prince Kierran is Oberon's grandson.

    Cernunnos The Master of the Wild Hunt and King of "The Wild".

    I need to work on
    Spring and Autumn.
    These don't have Courts, and their Rulers are Princess level.

    Shadowfell

    Personally, I prefer the Plane of Shadow, and both Ravenloft and the Shadowfell are Demi-Planes in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←- (Click)

    RAVEN QUEEN (lesser goddess), Queen of Ravens, Kingsbane, Fate’s Plaything, Tug of Skulls, Red Mariner, Survivor of the Depths, Mysterious Mistress
    Domains: fate, darkness, defiance, redemption, ravens, fear, pain, dusk, cold, shadar-kai
    Ok, I like this version a little better than the "official" story in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.

    Drop the Deity/Domains. In my games: She's the most known and easily accessible Hexblade Patron, focused on destroying all Undead.
    (The weapon is the physical representation of the Pact {even for Chain and Tome} and acts like a link to the Patron)

    I'll keep the first three titles, and the last title is what she (indirectly) tells Mortals.
    (But, I really prefer to have the Lady of Pain in Sigil, as the only Mystery Lady.)

    But there are actually quite a few Beings that know RQ's story, and will tell you for a Price.
    Solars, Archfey, Archdukes, Arcanaloths, and Deities of both Knowledge and Secrets.

    TL; Fallen Elven Deity that is no longer has any connections to the Elven People.
    Mortal worship will not return her to Deity status.

    Edit
    More stuff to view:
    Rogue - Scout
    Group focused Rogue Subclass attempt.

    Background Ideas

    Undead Patron Revisited

    *****
    Posts welcome. Just be prepared to write up long detailed explanations (Crunch and Fluff) on why you think something should be changed.

    Thanks for reading!!
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2020-01-14 at 05:23 AM. Reason: updates
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    I'm not against stealing other people's idea suggestions.
    Thanks!

    I'm putting up my own thread, since that way Members can read and stealborrow from everyone Pontificating on the subject equally.

    Ramblings

    OOH I'm adamant that using real mythical gods straight up is lame and boring. OTOH it's not like Sune isn't Aphrodite and Gruumsh isn't Christianity description of Odin and Shar/Selune aren't Ahriman/Ahura Mazda and so on and so forth.
    As I (hopefully) implied, I'll be changing all those Folks, over time.

    Unless you mean 4e's World Axis, which is something entirely unrelated to Great Wheel and is maybe picked due to just sounding cool and mystical.
    4e World Axis is the version I meant.

    Outer planes are defined as fundamentally different from Material (like elementals), this would change their basic definition but functionally nothing else. Either way would work.
    I suppose I've read too many Thor comics, where he can wander through the different sections of Asgard on Sunday; stroll down the wrong path and deal with Giants in their Realm/s on Wednesday; and even march down into Hel and rescue someone on Friday. Which is why I called it a version of a Material Plane, because all those are linked - but it's not, and the Planar Laws are those (mostly) in the Books.

    My version might be called a Wheel, if you squint real hard…. But I call it The Box.

    The Eight Alignments "ringed" around Cannae.
    (I'm still working on the picture in my head, of this)

    LG NG CG
    LN N CN
    LE NE CE

    I really don't have a use for War "for its own sake", so I just dump all the "eternally fighting" Groups here. The Demon Horde vs the Devil Army takes place on Cannae. The only real exception for me: are Demons vs Devils, because they're trying to directly destroy each other from their respective (already established) Planes - but it's more Guerrilla Warfare, even here.

    I'll be making Sigil completely unfindable except for portals. That would suit the mystery nature of Lady of Pain better.
    Yeah. I like that. I much prefer The Lady of Pain over The Raven Queen for "Mysterious Ruler".

    That sort of Beastlands would make a good CN plane actually. It just wouldn't be as good as Limbo's cHaoSMatTEr gimmick for 3 o'clock and I already put Asgard as the humanoid version.
    Thanks for the kind words.

    I can possibly split the difference and have both. Though would prolly need TripleD to be the mayor to prevent it becoming Acheron 2: Demonic Bugaloo, giving it to some CE god is out of the question, and TripleD would never want to be a mayor.
    TripleD as Conqueror King looks awesome….
    What Anarchist respects a mayor?

    Idea: Parts of Carceri are run like a (USA) Southern Work Farm Prison (which is still kinda cool), but mostly I tend to imagine huge "Castles" with level after level of rows of prison cells, with hard*** Guards and an unforgiving Warden. Even if the Demi-Plane is Chaotic, the Jailiers are (like Githzerai) Lawful, and their "exploit you" Attitude makes them Evil.

    Frankly, for "unclaimed souls" I much prefer simply using (LN) Thanatos: The Reaper and Judge. With the "Penitence Stare" that Ghost Rider had in the (first) movie.

    You can't wiggle your way out of what you deserve in the Afterlife with Tanatos, since you're fully aware of exactly Everything he's Judging you by. There isn't anything beneath his notice, either.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Amazingly enough, I actually like the FR "Divine Rule" of no more than one Portfolio (Domains can repeat) per Deity, although I do extend it to per "Mythos/Racial" Pantheon.

    Despite claims by the Dogma of various Racial Deities, none were the Creator of anything other than their respective Races, and maybe not even then.

    Portfolios
    (Some Domains are also Portfolios)
    (More can be added)

    Death/Grave
    Undeath
    Life/Healing
    Light/Sun/Dawn
    Night/Dusk/Shadow/Darkness
    Knowledge
    Battle/War
    Parent
    Magic
    Guardian
    Murder
    Striff
    Secrets
    Tyranny

    Domains
    Note: I normally only give one or two Domains to any one Deity, and never more than four Domains.

    Arcana (SCAG)
    Knowledge (PHB)
    Life (PHB)
    Death (DMG)
    Grave (XgE)
    Forge (XgE)
    Light (PHB)
    Trickster (PHB)
    Nature (PHB)
    Protection (UA Cleric)
    Tempest
    Travel (PHB)
    Order (GgR)
    War (PHB)

    Undeath (Homebrew) need help making this different from Necromancer Wizards.
    P.E.A.C.H

    Luck needs research.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-09-08 at 11:57 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    ***Deities***

    Note: it's been said by lots of people that listing all the Deities for D&D is nigh impossible for any one person. As such, I'm not even going to try.

    Most of the time, I'll only be changing details about a given Deity's Portfolio/Domains and perhaps a comment on their Attitude/Behavior.

    My World's "True Creator" Deity has no Name and doesn't have a Portfolio or grant any Domain powers. Only the Oldest of the Deities even know that this Being even exists, and they tend to not answer questions about it.

    Note 2: All the non-Human Races are Aliens, and have their own Creation Deity.
    All the Prime Deities (Both Good and Evil) of all the Races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Goblinoids, Orcs, Dragons, Giants/Titans, Aberrations) came forth from the Elemental Maelstrom (also called the Primeval Chaos) at the same time, and slowly becoming aware of each other, some creating New Races (Dragons = Kobolds; Far Realm Aberrations = Illithid, Aboleth, Beholders) during this time. Since that happened so long ago, no Mortal can ever get any straight answers (individual accounts always put the speaker as the Focus of the story) about the events of those times.

    Explanation: The Creator makes the Crystal Sphere, but in Big Bang Fashion.
    The Prime Deities of each Race appear from out of this Primal Chaos, only to find Mortals in their Image/s already existing, mortal beliefs create the Outer Planes*, and the Great Cycle starts.

    * Yes, all the Deities "lived" on the Material Plane at first, but all the Wise "Ruler" Deities realized that if they remained here, the Great War would destroy Everything, which would also destroy them.
    So they banded together and forced all the others into what is now called the Outer Planes.

    Spoiler: Divine Rank
    Show

    Ok, this is taken from
    Here


    ******

    I'm considering only really keeping:
    (More research needed, expect changes)

    Faerun
    Gond
    Wakeem

    Velsharoon ? "Deity of Undeath"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←-- Click

    VELSHAROON (lesser deity), Archmage of Necromancy, Lichlord, Maimed God, Lord of Hollow Crypts, Traitor’s Fortune, Skull of a Thousand Faces
    Domains: necromancy, undead, lichdom, betrayal, disguise, secrets, luck
    Greyhawk
    Tharizdun (CN) Portfolio: Destruction, Insanity.

    *****
    I'll be working on my own Pantheon, but it's going to take some time, so be patient.
    *****

    More interesting versions.
    Only minor adjustments might be needed to apply to my Games.

    LudicSavant
    Corellon

    The only real changes here are
    Corellon didn't create the Elves (no one can ever find out who did, though) and his idea of "Civilization" tends to be limited to Elven Towns.
    Cities aren't of any real interest to Corellon.
    While seemingly an Uncaring Deity (and him being considered nearly insane, due to being dedicated to constant Change) Corellon will respond to any Call for Help by any Non-Drow Elf.

    Elves

    Lolth - her History stays mostly the same, minus the "relationship" with Grummsh, and only really directly affects the Elves, Drow first.

    Lolth

    Drow

    ******

    Gruumsh was always his own deal, "civilization" being limited to Orc Tribes with a powerful Chief.
    His desire to "Rule everything" is what caused the now famous Fight between him and Corellon.
    But while their respective followers continue that conflict, the real Feud is between Gruumsh and Claggadin.

    Orcs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←- Click

    GRUUMSH (greater god), One Eyed God, the Watcher of Infinities, Lord of Lords, the Godfather, Sire of Gods, Monarch of the Bloody Fields, Thousand Faced King, Emperor on Iron Fortress[/b]
    Domains: competition, domination, determination, strength, fury, vengeance, vigilance, adaptability
    ******

    Dwarves

    Moradin didn't create the Dwarves, but did Forge their Spirit to give them drive and purpose; Moradin will Hammer anyone bothering him with Questions about any of that! Moradin is the example of a model Dwarf, though.

    Claggadin this is the hothead of the Dwarves. His Flaw is that he tends to believe that any problems can be solved by violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←-- Click
    ABBATHOR (intermediate god), Trove Lord, Great Master of Greed, the Unearther, Glittergreed, Treasure Turtle
    I liked a lot of that.

    But, I run that Abbathor (NE) does answer prayers (and has Clerics) since doing so does gain him something in return, usually at a low cost to high reward rate. And he absolutely loves stealing Souls from other Dwarven Deities, and any other Deity he can.

    ******

    Now, for my games, no one knows who started the Feud between Garl and Kurtulmak - or can get a straight answer from either.
    Kurtulmak says Collapsing the Mines on him was deliberate, but Garl maintains his innocence.

    Gnomes

    Garl Glittergold (CG) "Revealer of Secrets".
    Garl has an insatiable Curiosity, and a love of pranks. Domains: Trickery, Knowledge.

    ******

    Now, I need to do some research, but I like the Idea that the Kobolds were created by at least one Dragon Deity. But, I don't limit Kobolds to only being LE, although few Kobolds are considered being "Good" by other Races and their Deities.

    Dragons

    Kurtulmak (LE) is to Kobolds what Corellon is to the Elves. Only less forgiving. He is a harsh taskmaster and drives the Kobolds to build the "perfect" Lair.

    I only found two other Kobold Deities, so I'll need to work on that.

    Gaknulak the Trapmaster

    Kuraulyek the Coward.

    ******

    Halflings

    For the most part, I don't think I need to change much, for Halflings.

    Brandobaris The Quintessential Adventuring Halfling Rogue.
    Domains: Luck, Travel, and Trickery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←- Click

    BRANDOBARIS (lesser god), Irrepresible Scamp, Master of Misadventure, King of Pranks, Luckiest Rapscallion
    Ok, I love those Titles, and have no shame stealing the "Adventuring" parts.

    ******

    Goblins

    Maglubiyet: The Battle Lord.
    Domain: War.
    Think more General Lucullus, only more of a Tyrant.
    Spoiler: Goblin Deites
    Show


    Maglubiyet the self proclaimed King of All Goblins.

    Khurgorbaeyag, the goblins' racial god, desires the rise of goblins to domination of other races.
    Slavery, Oppression, and Morale.

    Bargrivyek the "Peacekeeper"

    Kikanuti is the goddess of the desert goblins, known as bhukas, in some campaign settings of the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. She is one of the rare good-aligned deities of the goblinoids.

    Hobgoblin Deities

    Nomog-Geaya.

    Bugbear Deities

    Hruggek Ruler. violence and combat. His symbol is a morningstar.

    Skiggaret is not worshipped by bugbears, and as such has no clergy. He is instead described as using fear to make bugbears act for him.
    (Warlock Fiend Patron?)

    Grankhul: hunting, senses, and surprise. symbol is two eyes that are ever open in the darkness.


    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ←- Click
    GITH (divinity), Warrior Queen, Great Savior
    Domains: githyanki, githzerai, mindflayer genocide
    Need more research.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-24 at 10:35 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Deities vs Patrons
    Now, for my games, an "Outside Being" cannot be both a Deity and a Patron.

    First, because of the mechanics behind each.

    More importantly, I like the Fluff of Very Powerful Beings struggling to steal Souls from those Uber Powerful Deities, but never actually being able to become Deities themselves.

    For me, the Patrons are beings that can share their power with mortals, but only through special connections (usually a Contract, but not always) that have their own limitations.

    Unlike a Deity with a Cleric, a Patron cannot "cut off" a Warlock's power, once given.

    But, they can deny granting New Powers (spells and Invocations) if the Warlock strays too far from that Patron's goals. Finding a new Patron of the same Type (ex: either Demons, Devils, or Yugoloths for Fiend: changing from Demon to Devil requires changing from CE to LE, etc) is possible, but the rules are still the same.

    Ok, I'm not sure about anyone else, but I tend to think:
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    ← Click
    (edited)

    "Tinkerer":

    Warlock: (IMO) sure the "Patron" gig can make it seem to be somewhere between Cleric and Wizard, but I kinda look at them a little more like "connected" Sorcerers.

    Increasing Power through mild research, lots of experimentation and Contractual Deals with a like-minded Entity.
    Fiend
    I break these down as follows

    Demons
    I'll be honest, outside the Demon Lords, only Balor have the Power to become a Patron.

    "Lolth" is a remnant of when the Drow Deity was a resident of the Abyss. Sadly, this creature actually thinks that 'she' is said Deity. Which amuses the real one to no end.

    Devils
    Most Mortals go for Archdevils, if not the Archdukes.

    Yugoloths
    Arcanaloths are usually the go-to here.

    Archfey

    See comments on the Feywild.

    Great Old One
    Ok, I'm going to be a bit rude, and Rant.
    I HATE the Lovecraftuan Elder Gods!
    Something so Unbelievably Incomprehensible that just looking at it drives you insane.

    Quite a few of his Minion Monsters are ok, but that's it. /Rant

    As such, I'm creating my own List for these.
    Right now, these are just concepts.

    (Name) The Lurker: This Being tends to be confused with The Dominator, since they can seem the same. But in fact they are strongly opposed to each other.

    (Name) The Dominator: is litterally the First Illithid Elder Brain. Nuff said.

    The Spider King: Is an Old Spider Being (Uber Phase Spider?) that no one has found a way to translate 'his' Name; and is in contention against Lolth (the Fiend creature more then the Deity) for mastery over Spiders.

    The Cat Lord (1e MM)

    The Lizard King 1e

    Hexblade
    Reluctantly - the Raven Queen.

    Edit >Moved to new Post<

    I have another Patron in the making
    (spot saved)

    Celestial
    I'll look up what I got...

    Undying
    Imhotep the Mummy Lord (NG)

    Acerack the Lich (NE)

    Vald The Vampire King (LN)
    Literally wants to make a Vampire World, with himself as Emporer. (Yes, I know I'm not fooling anyone)

    Genie
    Needs more research.

    Dragon
    Only Ancient Dragons achieve enough Power to become Patrons, and only a few of those actually become such.

    The Five Consorts of Tiamat.
    Black, Blue, Green, Red and White. (need names)

    The Five oldest Companions of Bahamut.
    Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold and Silver. (need names)
    * The seven Ancient Gold Dragons aren't Patrons.

    And the Five Friends of the Prince of Gem Dragons.
    Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz. (need names)

    While Ancient Ferris Dragons can become Patrons, this is rare beyond compare.

    ****
    Assistance most welcome!!!!
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-09-08 at 12:04 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    On racial and cultural planes aligning with the Great Wheel:
    I use Asgard/Hel as the example. From the perspective of the followers of that pantheon the outer planes are part of the world-tree, and the planes of their deities all connect via the tree, though for worshippers of Ganesh of the same alignments would be unable to access them. Instead their planes would be on tie backs of turtles swimming in the void. The fact that the CG planes of both mythos occupy the same place on the wheel diagram but are not contiguous with each other while both are contiguous with planes the other cannot access is simply an n-dimensional math problem.

    Just as A. Square from Flatland has trouble telling a circle from a triangle, we find it difficult to see how a tree, a wheel, and a bunch of turtles are all simultaneously correct, but they are.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    @brian 333
    Thanks a lot for posting!!!

    How you describe things there: is what actually happens to most of the followers of each respective Pantheon.

    But, I allow "Inquisitive" Adventurers to cross those Barriers (sometimes unknowingly) - perhaps seeing that Alignments transcend specific "beliefs", and how they can be viewed from the "perspective" of another culture.

    The funny thing is, when (A) Square return Home, trying to explain Triangles to anyone else - it just cases frustration on his/her part, and confusion on everyone else's part.

    ***
    I forget who posted it, and looking would take way too long, but I agree that Everything in The RPGs (D&D = Astral, Ethereal, Shadow, Inner, and Outer Planes) should be something the Players can interact with, in some way.

    I'm kinda a Hipster for Inclusive play.😸
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-03 at 03:08 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    repost

    @Segev: if you're reading this: first thanks!
    I like your ideas, and they can affect how I do things.

    These Hexblade suggestions seem to have been considered and dropped, so reposted here for PEACH-ING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    ← Click

    Q: With what you have, getting access to all three options would be available at 5th level; Would (A) "choose one of the following with a first level slot; a second with a third level slot; and gain access to all three options with a fifth level slot" be too much?

    This was what I was thinking of doing with the regular Hexblade Class.

    I still see a lot of people choosing “Critical on 19-20” at 1st level either way.

    Or (B) 1st slot ( lv 1), 2nd slot (lv 3), 3rd slot (lv 5), and Hex Armor with 5th slot (lv 9)? This does make the Hex Armor available one level sooner than the “regular” Class, but shouldn't be too big a deal. Especially since the spell only allows one option at a time. So, no Armor + Critical.

    I could see Accursed Specter being an Invocation available after 6th level.

    Would really cut down on dipping, just for Hexblade's Curse, since it would take until level 9 to unlock all options?

    Would you have Master of Hexes (14th level) also being an Invocation?
    *****
    I like the Martial Weapons being linked to a Patron. Would make for more interesting chosen Weapon. IiRC, Blade Pact give you proficiency with any Weapon you are bonded with.

    As for the Medium Armor and Shields, the Invocation with Blade being required should work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Part of the reason for the design as is is to do as little “change the Warlock” as possible. That said, I kind-of had to give in to put shillelagh on their list, or force them to take human for a feat at first level.

    For a true tinkering, putting martial weapon proficiencies with the various patrons is interesting. Could still have Pact of the Blade give all martials.

    Having Eldritch Curse stop you from Hexing in the same round is not intentional, but I can’t think of a good way around it. I think making warlocks wait for 9th level for all three effects is a bit much. Dipping for 5 levels isn’t really a “dip” anymore, anyway, and is more a genuine investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @Segev:

    I'm wondering if giving full access to Martial Weapons might be a bit much?

    Since Blade Pact gives proficiency with the Bonded Weapon (regardless of category), and the Summoned Blade does Force damage instead of P/S/B (unless they bond with a magical weapon): giving "Hexblades" full access to the entire list of Martial Weapons (without a Blade Pact or Invocation) would make this a more powerful version of the Eldritch Knight?
    Since all that would be lacking is Heavy Armor.

    Especially if combined with Thirsting Blade and/or Eldritch Smite Invocations.
    *****
    Note that option (B) gave Hex Armor at 9th in the spell, where the “original” Hexblade gave the Armor at 10th.

    So, since “Dipping” is 1-3 levels; with (B) version that would still unlock Blade Pact and two of the four Curse options.
    ****
    How about “The Master of Hexes Invocation (requirement 14th level and Hexblade's Curse spell) allows the spell to be transferred to another target as a Reaction”?
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I could see "Use a Reaction to allow the Warlock a 1d20 roll with no modifiers. If your roll meets or exceeds the attacker's total, they miss."

    This way, they couldn't easily negate a Natural 20.

    @Segev
    Humm. Sorry.

    Once again, not having my Books on hand when posting backfires on me!
    - Honestly, I don't recall where I read the Force Damage.

    As far as Hex Armor and the Two new Curse Invocations, I think that would work.
    I might even be able to convince a Player to try this out in one of my games.....

    Personally, I think that giving all Martial Weapons is really stepping a bit over the Gish. Makes this class a better choice then Eldritch Knight, in a lot of ways.
    Or being Paladin-lite with Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite combo.

    Especially since the Bladelock is proficient in their Bonded Weapon, and can change it each time it is Summoned. (PHB - pg 107)
    *Poof* 1d10 Blunt! (Two handed Warhammer)
    *Poof* 1d12 Slashing! (Greataxe)

    Edit
    Improved Pact Weapon Invocation gives:
    *Poof* 600' 1d8 Piercing! (Longbow)

    Really, bonding with a Magical Weapon actually limits this Ability. (I mean a +3 Legendary Weapon with extra powers might be worth it, but that's all)

    *****
    I still like Cynthaer's suggestion for Weapons by Patron at 1st level.

    And I'd rather give a Shield over Medium Armor at 1st level. Giving both really outshines the other types of Warlock.

    With your option: I see a lot of "Hexblade" (GoO for mind powers; Fiend for Fire; Archfey for Charm; Celestial for some healing; and Undying for Necromancer-lite) Warlocks going Variant Human with PAM - or either Dwarf or Elf with racial weapons - and just rocking over the majority of other Gish options.

    Would most likely not even need to Multiclass.

    *****
    Would having a few more options for the (original) Hexblade's Patron be helpful?

    I've got one done, and am working on a second.

    Keep the Crunch as done here, but adding Goal/Fluff options?

    Spoiler: Hexblade changes
    Show

    At 1st level gain the use of shields, and pick one of the Hexblade's Curse effects.
    Gain a second choice at 3rd level.
    Gain the last effect at 5th level.

    Trade Shield spell for Ice Knife.

    At 3rd level, pick a Pact: Chain, Blade, or Tome.

    All other Abilities unchanged.

    (Modified) Invocations

    Rebuking Curse
    Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation.
    When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

    When the target hits you with an attack, as a Reaction, roll 1d20 with no modifiers. If you meet the attack's total, they miss.

    When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal half of that amount.

    When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

    Dread Curse
    Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation.

    When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

    The target is either Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on their turn to end this effect.

    You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the Gaseous Form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.

    If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since their last turn, they must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with them further away from you than they began their turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.


    I'll do some Playtesting, and post the results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @Segev: Humm.

    I like the “exceed base roll” to negate a hit.

    Maybe have that Invocation as a Reaction costing a Spell Slot and working like Adamantine?
    Negates the Double Damage portion of a Critical?
    Duration is until the end of the round.
    (Extending it to the start of the Hexblade's next turn, might be a bit much)
    "Adamant Defense"? Requires being a Hexblade.

    ******
    Like stated above, the only difference between (regular) Hexblade and Eldritch Knight (other than base Fighter abilities - and not counting spell access) is Heavy Armor access.

    And with Warlock's Slots renewing on a Short Rest, the Hexblade is quickly overshadowing the EK.

    Multiclassing into both Fighter and Paladin only gives Medium Armor, shields, with simple and martial weapons. Rangers gets those and also gets +1 skill from their list. But then, Rangers only ever get Medium Armor, shields, and all weapons.

    Which is why most people will take 2 Fighter, and 1 Paladin (or - rarely - 3 Ranger) at Character Creation, then go at least 3 levels Warlock (Hexblade mostly for flavor, see below), and then take more levels in the chosen Class: Fighter 2 for Second Wind, Fighter 5 for Extra Attack; Paladin 2 for Smite, Paladin 5 for Extra Attack;

    (except for Saves and Skills, taking Ranger has the same effect, regardless of which was taken first - usually Hunter, although Gloomestalker is gaining popularity).

    Someone that went Fighter (Paladin) / Hexblade earned Heavy Armor access, and most likely took Hexblade for the Hexblade's Curse more than anything else.

    *****
    My real complaint with giving (base) Hexblade medium armor is that it allows for Very High AC at Low Levels.

    Which means that the PCs with High AC are able to take on CRs around Three times their level! (Like a Level One PC with AC 18-19 can easily take on most CR 3 Monsters.)

    Spoiler: Hobgoblins
    Show

    I just got done running "CR 1" Hobgoblins against a Level Two party. With the Hobgoblins having AC 18, they were a very hard fight for the Party!

    I felt that base (CR 1) Hobgoblins should have AC 14, Veteran Hobgoblins AC 16 (CR 3), and Captain Hobgoblins AC 18. (CR 5)

    Especially since monsters aren't really supposed to easily match PCs: just have different or interesting Abilities. And, I felt that not every Hobgoblin would have access to Chain Mail.


    Now, I'm an experienced enough DM that I can adapt, but I also wanted to let New DMs know about this problem, and suggest possible ways to how it can be avoided.

    Now, Armor Cost keeps all the classes to Scale Mail (50 gp. AC 14 +2 Dex +2 shield = 18) at best, until around 3rd level.

    Studded Leather is 45 gold. (AC 12 +2 shield + [5] Dex = 19 max).

    At 750 gp for Half-Plate (AC 15 + 2 Dex and +2 shield = 19), even the Fighter and Paladin are not really scary with Splint Mail (AC 17 +2 shield = 19) for 200 gp.

    Plate (AC 18 +2 shield = 20) costing 1,500 gp means that this is normally not available until about 5th level.

    Since I have Magical Armor in my games, AC can get close to 30 by 17th level!!

    And the poor Mage is SOL, with Mage Armor (AC 13 + Dex) and an extra +5 from Shield a few times a day. 23 max: Forever.
    (I have my own solution for this)

    *****
    Now, as always, the biggest part is optimization at Character Creation.

    Anyone with 20 Dex (Halflings, Elves, and Goblins) doesn't need Heavy Armor, since they can get an AC 19 with just Studded Leather and shield. (55 gp) From 1st level!

    But, starting out with access to Medium Armor means that even with a 14 Dex, they can still rock out with that same AC 19 as soon as they get 760 gp. (About 3rd level?)

    True, Heavy Armor plus shield can get AC 20:
    But, it's not like there's an Assembly Line Factory cranking Plate Armor out!

    ******
    Shillalah being available to allow for better damage isn't really a problem. Would make even "no Martial Weapons" Hexblades suck less.

    Since in my games, a shield and the Shield spell don't add together, I've taken the Shield spell off the Hexblade's expanded spell list, and put Catapult Ice Knife instead.

    ******
    IDK. Perhaps having where there is more than one Being making Hexblade weapons? While keeping the weapon itself as the Patron as the better way to go, but adding where each weapon has individual goals and motivations - loosely based on who made it? Hexblade-crafter Beings could at least give an In World explanation on where these Weapons come from.

    I have the following Goals:

    (Good) "Seek out Good in all Beings, even Undead. Destroy true Fiends and Undead that seek to harm the innocent."

    (Evil) "Command the Undead. Enslave the Living." (I'm thinking about changing this to Undying)

    ******
    I also agree that both Hex-tomes and Hex-chains are difficult to figure out. But short of declaring Hexblade a Blade Pact only and making new Pacts for “Shadow” Tome and Chain Warlocks, (which I'd rather not do) I'm not sure what to do.

    With access to a Martial Weapon from 1st level, taking Blade Pact also means that you can't lose your Bonded Weapon. Perhaps allowing the now Bonded Hexblade Weapon to still change weapon (and damage) type, but always doing the damage of the original Weapon?

    I suppose that the Hex-chains could be considered good for recon.
    Maybe have an Invocation to allow the Familiar to channel all Attack-based spells, including ranged? "Enspell Familiar"?
    Requires Voice of the Chain Master.

    Hex-Tomes are more caster-based; but still able to engage more in (melee) combat than any other Tomelock.
    *******
    I do agree that all Blade Pacts are intended to be Gish-ish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Sadly, I don't have a consistent group Experienced enough (and/or willing) to do Playtesting: Where different versions of a Class can be tested and then compared. (See sig)

    Well, I was thinking that the flat 50% miss chance affecting even Natural 20s was a bit much.

    Spending a Spell Slot on a 50% miss chance also seems harsh. It might be better to just allow a Reaction to impose Disadvantage, usable Cha modifier times per day.

    The Adamant Defense Invocation was to allow the effects of a Critical Hit to be effectively negated, but the Warlock is still hit and takes damage. It also cost a Reaction and a Spell Slot.
    Which puts a very hard (but renewable) limit.

    Note: all Bladelocks are nearly as powerful as both Fighter with Extra Attack (Thirsting Blade Invocation) and Paladin with Smite (Eldritch Smite Invocation) at 5th level, without needing to Multiclass.

    Confirming: I really kinda don't like Hexblade with medium armor (especially combined with all Martial Weapons) since it greatly overshadows all the other Patron options. Having access to shields and a single weapon is still preferred, since that is only a small increase in the Warlock's versatility; and the other Martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger) still have an edge.

    Combined with Medium Armor (plus shield) means that the Hexblade is on par with all but the most heavily armored Martials. (Plate+shield)

    Makes Hexblade the “go to” class (especially for Gish), and I like to see all the Classes being chosen to be played.

    Unless there is an obvious difference between the regular Pact (say, a Great Old One) and the Hexblade option and a real benefit for taking the "regular" Pact, everyone would always choose the Hexblade option: And get "cool" Patron abilities and powers.

    *****
    I was on a different track:
    Keeping the original Hexblade, adding more "Crafters", and making changes to make the Hexblade a little less OP, or being so much of a “go to” (Gish) class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    "Theory-crafting" can be interesting, but actually seeing it brought to life is lots more Fun!!

    The problem there is, that all you need to do in order to make all the Patrons Gish from 1st level is just add shillelagh to all of them.

    And now we have SCAG and Booming Blade, Lightning Lash, and Green Flame Blade, so Shillelagh isn't really needed, anymore.

    Upon doing some research, I've noticed that even with the new options in Xanathar's, there is very little difference between Blade, Chain, and Tome Pacts when it comes to spell choices. And this is even true with Invocations, except for obvious choices.

    With Tome being the least affected, since all the Book of Ancient Secrets does is give slightly better access to Ritual spells, when compared to the Feat.

    I still tend to see the "Hexblade" as a different Pact, especially if "added" to another Patron.

    But, even the original "Hexblade" had problems really showing the difference between the Pacts.
    The Blade just never lost their Weapon.
    The Chain had an Invisible Familiar.
    The Tome could do more Out of Combat stuff, but still Gish-ed with the rest.

    Your changes don't really address this problem, and actually causes more confusion, since there is no "Hexblade" to begin with; it just means that, like I pointed out above, the Players could get all the benefits of a chosen Patron and take whatever Pact they wanted, and by simply picking Weapon Cantrip and Eldritch Curse spells, still be standing above all other Gish options.

    Note: the original "Hexblade" still needs to be compared to, for the discussion. (Which is what I'm pointing to in my references to it)

    Only by covering all that the original subclass does, can you "eliminate" it.

    Ok: so the things that are really needed to focus on are:
    "Armor, shield, and Weapons" and
    "Hexblade's Curse"
    All the other "Hexblade" abilities can be made into Invocations.

    Giving shields (and maybe a weapon) at 1st Level should be ok. Especially with Weapon Cantrips added.

    Blade Pact already allows changing the Bonded Weapon between Martial Weapon types.

    The Improved Pact Weapon Invocation also gives access to All Ranged Weapons.

    Putting Medium Armor behind an Invocation that requires either Blade Pact (or 5th level) can work.
    So long as the DM is aware that this will allow PCs with 14 Dex to still achieve AC 19 easily.
    Since making it have that requirement means that the PC needs to go to 5th level to get it, means that it becomes less of a choice for Multiclassing.

    Note: the only real Multiclassing problem is: "Hexblade" Warlock plus Rogues.
    Giving Rogues access to both (mithril) Half Plate and shield is a bit potent. But, by making Medium Armor available only at 5th level with an Invocation, this is less of a problem.
    **
    The "Curse" part is the hardest to work with.
    Making it a spell is one option, but then that spell would almost always be chosen.
    Which just leads back to the problem of what separates the Pacts.

    Since your wanting to put "Curse" into all the other Patrons, I'd suggest making "Curse" it's own Pact.

    With all the options (one weapon, base "Hexblade Curse" abilities, Hex Armor, Miss Chance, etc) available upon taking it.
    The Player still needs to choose which option is active each round. (Take "Armaments" Invocation for Medium Armor)

    This suggestion makes the Player choose between Blade (Weapon versatility) and Curse (affect other Creatures) while still allowing Chain (Familiar) and Tome (Rituals) to stand out.

    It also makes Hexadins take more than just one "Hexblade" level to get Cursing powers.

    *****
    To me, having a Weapon being the Patron is less weird then some Near-God-Level Being(s) "randomly" giving out Power to mortals.

    Making a Deal with (the) Devils is a classic trope, but doing so almost always lands the mortal in bigger trouble. Usually in the "Eternity" department.

    Stealing the Power from a Patron could work, I suppose, but then the DM is considered being "mean" when they have said Being take notice and confronting the PC.

    Just keep Rebuking Curse but adding that on a 20 rolled by the Warlock cancels the Double Damage of a Natural 20 - but still hits and does normal damage? (The odds of a Natural 20 being rolled by two different people is really high)

    Well, multiple new Patrons was my original idea, but changing them to (Hexblade) Crafter Beings works better for my games.
    Unlike "The Raven Queen" they can be Encountered directly.
    **********
    I am working on making different Warlock Pacts to see the difference (I'm very visual) between them.

    I do wonder if changing Hexblade's Curse to an Action so that Hex can also be used as a Bonus Action in the same Turn would be ok?
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Now, I can agree on Fluff/flavor.
    There needs to be some explanation as to where these Weapons come from.
    Beyond some "mysterious" Raven Queen.

    I can totally see a Holy Avenger being a Hexblade Patron, slowly revealing it's true power over 17 levels.

    I'm still working on the "Evil" Hexblade, mostly on how it's different from Fiend Patron.

    Most of the "common" Hexblade weapons are Awakened magical weapons.
    (Work in Progress)
    I can't find out who, but the suggestion to git rid of Specter at 6th level and put Hexblade's Curse there was made. I think that has potential, but would then need something fairly cool at 1st level....

    Edit
    By allowing both Medium Armor (which all Warlocks get) and shield, the only thing stopping a Player from getting AC 19 at First level is >money<.

    And since Half Plate is only 750 gold, most Warriors can afford it by 3rd.

    Which means this Class makes all other Warlock Patrons less likely to be picked, since Hexblade is the prime pick for going Gish. And since they never need more than a 3 level dip for the best Features of the class, is otherwise ignored.

    Now, I am giving shield use, and having that Armored Invocation to give Medium Armor to Hexblade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    Got any ideas on boosts to just Warlocks?
    While some of the 3x Invocations are easy to convert, not all are really useful.

    I was thinking about changing the energy type (except Acid and Psychic) of Eldritch Blast to depending on Patron, and having an Invocation to change to Force/Radiant/Necrotic at higher level.

    But, I kinda figured that would be unwelcomed by most Players. IDK.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-10-03 at 10:44 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Clash of the Classes
    Spoiler: Alignment
    Show
    This is going to be unavoidable, so I'm going to post my feelings about it.

    I learned the hard way that I needed to keep Alignments Simple in my games.
    I avoid Shades of Grey, simply because I don't want to have a heated debate that takes up all the Game Time.

    Good: cares about others more than self.

    Evil: willing to hurt/kill others to get desires.

    Law: teamwork, civilization.

    Chaotic: independent.

    As should already be known, I don't allow:

    True Neutral, because this is truly Uncaring NPCs.

    Chaotic Neutral:
    Best outcome: Uncaring Solo PC.
    No. This is a group game that is based on making hard moral choices.

    Chaotic Evil: in an All Evil Game, I can tolerate this.
    Think less "random" and more "destruction with a purpose".

    If you would like to Debate with me on my views about D&D/PF Alignments, PM me and we'll start a new thread for that.


    Spoiler: OoC Game Information
    Show

    This goes back to the 1990s and AD&D 2e.
    I was in my 20s back then.

    I was DMing a High Magic Campaign, loosely based on Greyhawk. I was just learning how to DM a Living World Sandbox.

    As should be absolutely no surprise to anyone,
    I had
    The (Quasi) Murder-Hobo Munchkin Group.
    If you're not sure what, exactly, that means:
    Post your query into the thread, or PM me.

    As the Title implies, the Group started a Battle Royal between all the Classes. Think classic PvP battles, here.

    This lasted until 2000 and the conversation of (mostly Wizards) into Third Edition D&D.

    The group broke up less than a year after this, so there were a lot of loose ends; that I have been working on incorporating into the now 5e D&D Living World I now do my best to Run.

    I no longer remember all the details, and I've moved and lost all my gaming supplies several times.

    As such, things will change as Players impact my World.

    These shinagines are the main reason I rarely allow PvP.
    I have yet to find a group that can really handle it, despite believing so.


    Barbarians
    Classic "Defeat/Become the Horde!"

    Bards
    Think part Traveling Circus and lots of Court Intrigue. With sporadic magic.

    Clerics
    I'm seriously not going to get into the Religious side of things (even in the context of the games) on the Forum:

    Let's just say imagine the worst of The Crusades plus the Spanish Inquisition, involving all the major Deities.

    Druids
    Now, even as far back as AD&D, I've believed that the War between Good and Evil applied most everywhere. This includes Nature.

    To me: doing your best to coexist with Nature is Light Side. Hunting for the pleasure of the kill is Dark Side.

    So, there became a split in the Druidic World:

    Light Druids were (of course) you're atypical (NG) Hippie types. Today's Lighters are more "warrior" and less tree-hugger.

    Dark Druids were your (NE) Eco-anarchists.
    These were the ones to create Killer Plants and either breeding or creating (or both) Magical Beasts (including the Owlbear, which Wizards got blamed for) and most of what are now called Monstrosities.

    The War between these Factions is kept secret.

    Fighters
    Basically switching between Gladiator battles, and Napoleon Army warfare.

    Monks

    Try and fit every (USA plus classic Asian) Kung Fu movie into the game.

    Note: I had the Tome of Battle, but no one was interested.
    Converting to 5e might be something I attempt, someday.

    Rangers

    (No offense to Vets; I have only stories to go by)
    These ended up being Vietnam-style War Zones.

    Rogues

    Go back to the years of Old, and then picture the Ultimate Deadly Spy vs Spy "Battle of the Thieves Guilds".

    Sorcerers

    These didn't come into play until 3e, and boy-howdy!
    Did they mess up the Works!!

    Warlocks

    Another late arrival, these became Magical Long Range Snipers.

    Psionics
    The mechanics in 3e were ok, but the impact on the World? "Just another Mage or Gish."

    Another conversation project, eventually
    The Mage Wars
    Partly Inspired by:
    Novels by Larry Dixon and Mercedes Lackey
    The Black Gryphon
    The White Gryphon
    The Silver Gryphon and more.

    Now we get into the Quadratic Wizard issue.

    Now think about all the actual effects of when several (about 7) High Level Wizards go all out against each other. For 10 years in game!

    I actually stepped down as DM and played under another GM in the group, I pulled out my 1e Mage and converted and updated him.
    And I solved this War.

    I'm not telling my secret.
    (Curious DMs can either PM or Email me)

    ****
    More than 1,000 years (in my game) has past since then.
    ****

    I have done my best to convert some of these PCs into 5e.

    Questions about specific Class Builds (3x or 5e) are welcomed.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-09-08 at 12:10 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    On the idea of Great Old Ones in the Lovecraft vein, the shtick with using them is they don't care. They don't grant power, they don't talk to you, they are giving you powers. The idea with a GOO warlock is they've found some remnant of power related to a Great Old One, rather than contacting the GOO directly (or even indirectly). I don't think Cthulu was ever specifically made anybody insane, but rather forced them to in an instant there are greater more powerful things in the universe than humans and they don't care about us which manifests as insanity to an outsider observer, but that person who has seen Cthulu just realized some small part of how the universe actually works.

    That isn't exactly compatible with D&D however, so I'd go with the 4E version of Living Stars, where there are literal stars that are also sapient creatures of immense power. We're talking actual star sized creatures that have their own gravity and what not. So think Mogo the Green Lantern from DC, or Ego from Marvel (recently in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2) but bigger and not giving a rat's patootie about anything involving the "mortal" world.

    Some of the stars are dead, but still sapient, so they're undead stars. One of them was described as a what can only be the fantasy version of a sapient blac khole.

    To attach this to a warlock the pact isn't literally with the Living Star, since the you are so far below notice that it can't hear your pleas, but rather the warlock has learned to harness something about the Star in some small way through study. I'd go with less insanity inducing, and more you have to be kind of crazy to try this route. This method works reasonably well with GOOs in general, but your mileage may vary.

    This is the previous edition info on Living Stars:

    Acamar: Acamar is a corpse star whose motions and behemoth size send celestial objects that draw too close spiraling to their doom.
    Caiphon: This purple star is usually on the horizon. It has the guise of a helpful guide star, but sometimes betrays those who rely upon it.
    Delban: An ice-white star often visible only during winter, Delban might surprise the star-gazer with an impromptu flare during any season.
    Gibbeth: Better not to write or think overlong on this greenish point in the sky.
    Hadar: Hadar is the extinguished cinder of a star lurking within the cloaking nebula of Ihbar.
    Ihbar: A dark nebula between stars, Ihbar is slowly expanding and eating the light of neighboring constellations.
    Khirad: A piercing blue star, Khirad’s radiance sometimes reveals secrets and gruesome insights.
    Nihal: Nihal is a reddish star that writhes around the position it should hold in the heavens.
    Ulban: Ulban’s blue-white light disrupts cognition and the ability to recognize danger.
    Zhudun: Another corpse star, Zhudun is historically described as shining a baleful light over the Ruined Realm of Cendriane in the Feywild before its fall.

    So these are literal stars you can see in the sky, depending on how you want the world to work they are billions and billions miles away, just like the actual galaxy, or they can be breaks in the crystal sphere that have gained sapience.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    @Beleriphon
    That's an interesting take on Lovecraft beings.

    I have yet to see anyone actually run them that way.

    I wouldn't mind trying to play CoC with you as GM.
    (This is High praise, since I normally refuse all offers to play CoC.
    Heck, I'll gladly play Paranoia instead.
    Since in the Game: while Death is stalking your PC, it doesn't try and break your Mind/Spirit first)

    ***
    I might go with those Stars.
    Might make each Warlock Archetype a different Star.

    Especially for Warlock Players that don't care about RP, Background, History, or want "Patron Drama".

    I'll keep the Surprise/B/ !!gif a secret until after 17th level.
    (IMO - There's no such thing as a Free Ride)

    ***
    Part of the problem that I have, is that I really prefer Patrons to care about something.

    Not caring about barely talking Ape-like Creatures is totally fine.

    But, some kind of goal.

    ****
    Mab wants to not just out-maneuver her Rival, she wants to humiliate her as much as possible.
    Oh, and to absolutely prove that you aren't as cleaver (or pure) as you think you are.

    ****

    Acerack wants to see if anyone is both smart and skilled enough to survive his latest Deathtrap Dungeon (that might also have Ulterior Motives) with those failing feeding his (extremely well hidden) Phylactery.

    Example of Very Powerful, but Not a Patron:
    Halaster does much the same (minus Soul Devouring) - but doesn't care about anything outside Undermountain, and will hunt down and imprison anyone stealing anything from him.

    ****

    Vald wants to create a Vampire World, with him as the Emperor. Also, destroying Imhotep would be a bonus.

    ****
    Now, I will say that I find Fiend Warlocks to be somewhat difficult to really justify for my Heroic Games.

    Sure, I know and liked the whole Ghost Rider (back when it was a cheep Comic Book and not a multi-million dollar Movie Series) that people love to use as their buy-in for this Patron.
    Hellboy being next up. (I tend to treat him as a CG Tiefling Conquest Paladin)

    But, I have a couple issues with that:
    First: I don't want to see 1001 versions of the same Story.
    (I know the actual point of the Ghost Rider comic series)
    Please, make your PC and their Story different.

    Second, none of the Warlock Patrons are clueless or stupid.

    So, none of the Patrons give the PC/s the full potential of the Pact, and getting the Spells and Invocations of Higher Levels (as unlocked when the requirements are achieved) usually means making a new Deal or doing a New Service {Quest} to get them.

    These 'Quest' demands are what I normally mean by "Patron Drama".
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-05 at 04:43 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Dragon Deities

    More research:
    Aulddragon's Blog

    Change both These to Intermediate Deities.

    Bahamut

    Tiamat

    Change Tiamat to CE. And drop Brown and Yellow heads.

    Next, Kobolds.

    Kurtulmak

    kuraulyek

    gaknulak

    dakarnok


    Ok, we got some options.
    Kurt and buddies are up top.

    I'm going to pull a classic Redemption trick, now.

    Zakorxu
    Demi Deity.
    Portfolio: Parent, Guardian.
    Domains: Life, Protection.

    This very small (3'0" and 20#) female Urd is soft spoken; and while not a pacifist, chooses her battles with extreme care and much planning.

    Now, there is a rare rumor (History or Investigation/Persuasion DC 25) that Bahamut actually promoted Zakorxu to Divine Status for her constant efforts to turn the Kobold Race away from the Evil Path. There is no way to confirm this rumor.

    Very few Kobolds speak of her (only using secret signals and implied phrases) since followers of any of the traditional "spiritual" Kobold leaders will immediately seek to imprison them and then use any true Clerics dedicated to Zakorxu to nefarious ends, via using Kobold young as blackmail.

    Zakorxu is suspected to empower any Divine Soul Sorcerer of Good Alignment.

    ****
    For Celestial Warlocks, Rokuq (male Exalted Kobold) is the one to turn to. His goal is to destroy all Fiends, since their influence is a threat to all Kobolds.

    ****
    For evil Kobold "Fiend" Warlocks, the suspect is the Neutral Evil Exemplar:
    Qutekriz the Destroyer.

    (Male urd) Who wages a personal war against Rokuq and seeks to replace Kurt himself.
    (Not likely, but that's why their called Dreams)
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-05 at 04:45 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    The thing with the Cthulu Mythos is that Chtulu cults tend to operate on the basis that the members have realized that the end of the world is coming, and it's going to hurt. The best comparison I can think of is that video of a guy that poors liquid aluminum into a fire ant colony. Cthulu is like that guy, if he didn't even realize that ants were there. So the cultists realize the end is both inevitable (you can't stop Cthulu), slow, and full of molten aluminum burning your body to bits. So, instead if they make Cthulu hurry up and arrive they'll be the first ones incinerated so they don't have to watch the rest of the world burn.

    As for the stars, they're detailed in a Dragon Magazine article with more info, but not a lot. They're not quite Blue/Orange morality, but their concerns are measured on a cosmic time scale. At the very least most of them are billions of years old. They are so long lived that some deities might be younger than the stars. As for goals here's an example for Ulban, which may or may not be a living star from the future! source: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Star_Spawn

    Goals: Ulban’s appearance marks dark times ahead. It crosses the alignment of Allabar and other baleful celestial bodies when their influence is greatest, disrupting their machinations by instructing you in the use of the powers of warlock champions from its own time. Its mysterious knowledge drives you to instigate plots taking years to complete. These plots test the limits of morality by sending entire regions spiraling into chaos, uncovering secrets best left hidden, and confronting enemies without regard to moral motivations. All this, Ulban claims, shall avert disaster in coming eons.
    5E has few vague references via the Elder Evils and star spawn in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. The Elder Evils are sort of combo living star/great old one. Best way I can describe the idea, from what I've gathered, is that they're like those tentacle creatures sealed in crystal at the climax of the first Hellboy movie. Examples of Elder Evils (not in MtoF) include The World that Walks (it's Kyuss), Atropus, the World Born Dead (D&D Galactus, sort of), and Pandorym a sapient unstoppable god slaying weapon that wants to reunite its body and soul so it can end all gods.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2019-07-05 at 02:45 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    @Beleriphon:
    I'll do my best to check those out. Thanks.

    ****
    But, most times I don't really need truly Unimaginable/Incomprehensible Beings to be Patrons.

    It's hard enough to get some Players to be interested enough to engage with what I have.

    Giving these a slot in my games means that they should serve a purpose for what I'm doing now in the World. A trillion years in either The Past or The Future is well beyond my concern.

    which reminds me

    Chronomancers

    ok, while a cool concept - this really ended up being just another means to Travel to another Realm.

    Fantasy Past, Alternate Now, and maybe SciFi Future.

    I've even forgotten most of the Monsters this splat-book had
    except the Time Dragon, which totally ROCKED!!
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2020-01-14 at 05:33 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Now Testing

    Point Buy
    PHB
    Zero points = 08
    One point = 09
    Two points = 10
    Three points = 11
    Four points = 12
    Five points = 13
    Seven points = 14
    Nine points = 15
    *********Expanded**********
    Eleven points = 16
    Thirteen points = 17
    Fifteen points = 18

    **********************************************
    34 points to spend

    Munchkin 18, 18, 12, 08, 08, 08
    Good 18, 18, 11, 11, 08, 08
    Balanced 15, 15, 15, 12, 11, 10

    **********************************************
    Do I have any Playtesting volunteers?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-08 at 03:09 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Planetouched

    I have Cambions being the Demon version of Tieflings.

    Aludiz {Al-oo-DIZ} (Alu-Demons) are connected to a Succubus/Incubus.

    Yugox (You-GOX) are connected to Yugoloths.

    ** Tieflings **
    Ok. I've been giving this some thought for those that want to allow Fiendish PCs while still staying PG 13 for their Games.

    I have a couple of options (or both) for an "Explaination" for their exisitance in the World.

    1) You made a Deal (knowingly or not) with a Fiend, and when you woke up the next day, you were a Fiendling !!!!

    2) Inherited: An Ancestor made a Deal with a Fiend and you were the Surprise Reward.

    This idea can also be applied to Aasimar and Genasi.

    Levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I have used since at least 2,000

    Class = thinking in terms of Career/Profession
    They're still called by Name Individually (example: Fighter) and as "Classes" as a whole.

    Class Level = Rank
    Yes, it sounds a little silly, but I figured that most people (both IRL and NPCs) would better understand (named? Not sure I want to try for 140 different ones, not counting Subclasses) neo-military type uses for separating the difference between "levels" (heh) of Experienced Adventurers.

    Example: "I'm a 15th Rank Arcane Knight."
    This immediately identifies to everyone:
    Class and Subclass and how Powerful they are. Even semi-clueless NPCs will know that this EK is stronger than a Rank 12 of the same "profession".

    Multiclassing can cause long-winded-ness.
    Players are allowed to use shorthand.
    "EK", "AT", "Swash", etc

    Spell = Tier
    And those are said together, so as to avoid confusion with OoC Play Tiers. I've seen some Groups use Circles for Levels instead.
    "9th Circle Spells"

    Buildings have Floors
    and only Dungeons have Levels.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-09 at 12:47 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Here is something I found to add:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I was looking through the NPCs found on pages 342-350 in the Monster Manual, looking for someone my players might hire as help. When I realized something kind of neat.

    We all know the official rules for hiring NPCs:
    Unskilled Hireling: 6gp per month
    Skilled Hireling (one tool or skill): 60gp per month.

    But the Expert Adventuring NPC doesn't currently have any rules attached to him. It just says "The pay shown is a minimum; some expert hirelings require more pay."

    Looking at the Monster Manual, I noticed that any character's XP values seem to line up perfectly with what I'd charge a player for expert service. I mean, if you were a level 2 Druid, wouldn't you think 200gp a perfectly reasonable quest reward?

    It even lines up with the Treasure Hoard (DMG)

    Hire Cost based on XP

    Tribal Warrior: 25gp
    Bandit: 25xp
    Cultist: 25gp
    Guard: 25gp

    Acolyte: 50gp

    Scout: 100gp
    Thug: 100gp

    Spy: 200gp

    Bandit Captain: 450gp
    Berserker: 450gp
    Priest: 450gp
    Cult Fanatic: 450gp
    Druid: 450xp

    Veteran: 700gp
    Knight: 700gp

    Gladiator: 1800gp
    Mage: 2300gp
    Assassin: 3900gp
    Archmage: 8400gp

    So the next time you're wondering what an NPC might take for a quest reward, just check their XP value.

    Next time a NPC demands money for a service, ask for 1/10th of his XP value. Bribing a guard costs 2,5gp and asking a Priest to cast a spell costs 45gp etc.
    10% exp = gold cost should be either per task/service or Daily, at most.

    I'm not 100% sure.
    Hiring the Arch-caster to cast a 9th level spell is most likely going to cost you more than 840 gold.

    Maybe half the XP value?
    4,200 gold for a non-Wish/Miracle?
    Getting the casting services of any Arch, should most likely be thier Full Exp in Gold per day. In advance.
    Disrupting their plans should cost you, a lot.

    Even the Assassin (especially if known as that) should not be cheap.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-19 at 02:51 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Good: Average people are worth sacrifice. Helping a person makes your world better. You ignore them only because you can't afford to help them.

    Neutral: People are people, just like you. Ignoring them, and them ignoring you, is the most efficient way to make your world better

    Evil: People are a resource or an obstacle. Removing or using them is the best way to make your world better. You ignore them because removing/using them would be too expensive to be worthwhile.
    This is a less complicated version of my definition.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-15 at 05:34 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Another tidbit to add.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    This is great!!

    I tend to have long winded Ramblings.

    I agree that Psychosis as an Excuse for being Evil, is just that. An "I can't help it" excuse.

    One thing that I've always thought, is that it's the Long Term behavior of a Character that really sets their Alignment.

    Nobody's perfect, so the occasional breaking away from normal behavior, isn't going to change a (D&D) Character's Alignment. Constantly doing such breaks, does. Regardless of Excuses.

    <Snip>

    Now, I normally avoid discussing CN.
    My opinion of this, especially in an RPG, doesn't seem compatible with anyone else's.

    But, I'll go with the Original concept of Catwoman (Thief Rogue/Shadow Monk?) usually falling here.
    Very independent; She's more interested in the Challenge of the Heist, then the actual value of the item itself (except for cat themed items in the old Batman TV show, which might have more value to her than anyone else) She wasn't Malicious towards anyone that hadn't directly offended her (which even Good Characters can do).

    Sure, it was possible to "redeem" her, but mostly because she had a crush on Batman.
    Something to do with him being the Mysterious Bad***, while still (mostly) a Good Guy.
    Agree?
    Disagree?

    Why?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-17 at 10:12 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    I opps, and committed Necro-threading!

    Original Post: Great Dragon
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=24012073
    @Pronounceable:
    I have captured Princess Glasya, and am holding her for Ransom in my "To the 9th" thread.

    I expect to see your chosen Champion/s within the week.
    I'll have roast Pheasant (are you sure?) and all the trimmings prepared.

    muhahahaha!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beneath View Post
    D&D3 breaks down past 10th level because originally post-10th levels were like epic levels in D&D3. I think as of the publication of AD&D1 the highest-level character in Gygax's game that had been running since OD&D was level 14
    Heh. Nerdout!

    IME, oD&D had that "past 10th level is epic" bit.
    With AD&D 1 & 2 just continuing that.
    Some of the Names for Class Levels was cool.

    3.x was just fine (Except Quadratic Wizards, which the DM could deal with 👹)
    until the Epic Level Handbook was pulled out.
    That was a Super Nuclear Mess!

    And yeah, since Gygax was gone before the buy-out of TSR (1997?) I think he ret-conned his old Character (Mordy) to at least 14th level.

    But, I can be wrong - since I wasn't anywhere near the Legends of D&D.
    *******

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    I really, really, really hate Maglubiyet. It's not just a dumb****ed name like Mask. It's straight up hypocritical and (fictional) racist. If calling the racial deity of a race literally defeat isn't the highest order of fictional prejudice, I dunno what is.
    I wasn't aware that his name meant that, or have any clue in which language.
    So, yeah. Need a new Name for this guy.

    I'm thinking:
    Nezaustav
    And
    General Euwigaien

    Warlock Dragon Patron

    Looks cool.

    I noticed the Medium Armor, but didn't see shield as well, so isn't too unbalanced. Only 2 points better than Draconic Sorcerer.

    Note: I wouldn't let Extra Attack stack with the Thirsting Blade Invocation.
    Edit: This is RAW, actually.

    Wish I had some Playtesters. >Sigh<

    Spoiler: My Attempt
    Show

    You have made a pact with an Ancient Dragon
    The DM should keep in mind the type and nature of the Dragon, and set goals accordingly.

    Draconic Presence starting at 1st level, you can cause each creature in a 10'-cube in front of you to make a Wisdom Saving Throw against your Warlock save DC. Those creatures that fail their saves are all charmed (Good Dragons) or freighted (Evil Dragons) until the end of your next turn.

    Elemental Affinity: at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your Dragon Patron, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.

    Draconic Resilience: at 10th level you gain Resistance to Spells. (Advantage to saves)

    Draconic Power: At 14th level, you gain a Breath Weapon of the energy type of your Dragon Patron.
    The character can choose either Line or Cone (once chosen, cannot be changed) with a range of 30 feet, and does 10d6 damage of the chosen type, with a Dexterity Save equal to your Warlock Casting DC, for half damage. You regain use of this ability when you have finished a long rest.

    Expanded Spell List

    Black/Copper
    1 Acid Splash, Silent Image
    2 Darkness, Hold Person
    3 Fly, Protection from Energy
    4 Confusion, Dominate Beast
    5 Insect Plague, Seeming

    Blue/Bronze
    1 Shocking Grasp, Thunderwave
    2 Gust of Wind, Mirror Image.
    3 Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic
    4 Polymorph, Stoneskin
    5 Telekinesis, Hold Monster

    Green
    1 Disguise Self, Detect Magic.
    2 Alter Self, Invisibility
    3 Water Breathing, Water Walk
    4 Dimension Door, Banishment
    5 Cloudkill, Dominate Person

    Red/Gold/Brass
    1 Burning Hands
    2 Scorching Ray
    3 Fireball
    4 Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
    5 Flame Strike

    White/Silver
    1 Chill Touch, Expeditious Retreat
    2 Blur, Spider Climb
    3 Slow, Sleet Storm
    4 Ice Storm, Blight
    5 Cone of Cold, Hold Monster

    Need to do some spell replacing....
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-26 at 01:52 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    The RPG Rules are really only there to help us Bridge the Gap between the Differences of Opinion to create a solid(ish) foundation for Greater Shared Gaming. Because without it, we end up being like the Kids in the street that end up fighting over how to Play.
    (But, whatever works at your Table, is also good)

    *****
    I don't like where the Ruling Deity (Zeus, as portrayed by a DM) dictates the Rules/Laws for Alignment, and then ignore them when applying these to themselves.

    Which is why I prefer to have Alignment a Cosmic Law, where even the Deities can't change - or ignore - them as desired.

    Hera isn't Evil because she's upset with Zeus for constantly cheating on her.
    She's Evil because she deliberately seeks to make every (Mortal) Man's (starting with Husbands) life miserable. Heck, most of the old Live Action Movies had it where Zeus and Hera "made up".

    Hades is a little more difficult.
    Now, Disney (First the man, and now the Corp) had him being Evil because he wants to Rule Olympus, and doesn't care if Mortals get hurt.
    With Hercules doing the Heroes in Hell bit from my comments in (here). (Where he can "Fight his way out" because he is Good)

    But, I go more Old School.

    Hades is Evil because he seeks every way possible to claim your Mortal Soul.
    Taking over as King of the (Greek/Roman) Deities (using the Laws against them as much as possible) is just mostly a Hobby.
    Hades can make a great BBEG.

    But, then I see almost all the Norse Deities (including Odin) being Chaotic.

    With maybe Heimdall and Hella being Lawful, and (my) Loki being NE.
    More

    I might as well make my comments on the rest.

    Aries LE.
    Extremely Disciplined, but this guy compares to Hades in Attitude (replacing Zeus is a minor Hobby), creating and controlling Wars in the Mortal World, to increase his Power (this is what makes him Evil) is primary.
    Not quite as interesting as a BBEG, except for military-based Roman Campaigns, or an Arc in a longer Story.

    Athena CG
    If there was ever a Nice Amazon, it would be her.
    Sure, she's helpful; but she doesn't take anyone's ***!!

    Hermes NG
    Once again - Disney - did this hard working Messenger a disservice. Sure, he'll party as hard as anybody else, but he takes his Job very seriously. He's Neutral because he just delivers messages, and doesn't take sides. He's Good because he'll help the other Deities as needed, but he mostly likes to help Mortals better their lives.

    Zeus LG
    Ok, this guy can be a prick.
    IMO - He's barely Lawful, mostly in enforcing his Rules (and constantly ignoring them, himself) and while he promotes Good Societies, he makes a lousy Role Model.
    But, he's the King.

    Norse

    Oden CG
    I tend to see this guy as a nicer Conan the King.
    Obey - or else! He's not shy about giving Rewards, either.

    Frigia NG
    She's the Cool breeze to counter Odin's quiet fury.
    She thinks in the Long Term.

    Thor CG
    I suppose that the best way to sum this guy up:
    Folk Hero Bear Barbarian plus Tempest Cleric.
    Out to Save Mortals from Divine Monsters!!
    (And loving it!)

    Hella LE
    Now, she doesn't want to replace Odin.
    She wants ALL the others DEAD!!!
    She makes no bones about it, either.
    Very creepy BBEG.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I tend to run my games different from most, and as such sometimes get flack in threads.

    Which is fine

    My advice for a missing Caster Class is:
    Add more Magic Items to Treasure.
    Potions or Scrolls, and Wands are great.

    Healing and Restoration for missing Clerics.
    Wand of (Mass) Healing Word, and Remove Curse.

    I tend to use Rings a lot for useful (Arcane) spells.
    Like Detect Magic, Darkvision, See Invisibility, Devil's Sight. (Goggles are too easy to notice and take away, where a Ring might be overlooked by searching captors, Especially if they aren't made of shiny precious metals)

    I just look at spells and ponder what would make a good usable item. Using Attunement for some magic items will keep Item Bloat down.

    I like a good Debate, so shoot me your Ideas.

    *****

    I do run things where the BBEGs are much too busy dealing (indirectly) with each other, and are using Proxies and Minions to do basic footwork (because both BBEGs are trying to get the other into a situation where they are at a Disadvantage before engaging, and using Trickle Down Logic for Minions). This keeps things on a (mostly) Level Appropriate Challenge basis, backed by In Game Logic.
    Here is what I normally go by.

    Cantrips are Common Items.

    1st to 3rd spells are Uncommon.

    4th and 5th spells are Rare.

    6th and 7th spells are Very Rare.

    And 8th and 9th spells are Legendary.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    (Moved to end of thread, easier for me to find)

    *****
    So, I suppose that I will just start putting in the Changes that past players have done.

    Some of these Characters I don't have permission to place their Names from their players, and some I no longer remember the Names for, so understand when I just put in their Race\Class/Subclass instead.

    *******
    *****

    Spoiler: Twin Keeps - Ended
    Show

    Twainsmeet Keep
    V Human - Champion Fighter 5
    Mt Dwarf - Mt Druid 5
    V Human - Devotion Paladin 5

    Start 6/3/1182

    (3/7/19)
    Fighter and (Evil PC) enter the Keep and take the Bandits Quest.

    (Evil PC) disappears in the middle of the night.

    Paladin and Ukral enter through the front gate.

    Fighting the first Bandit group - captured one and the mage.

    (3/14/19)
    Moon Elf Archfey Warlock - changed to Arcane Trickster Rogue.

    The Bandit Mage managed to Dimension Door (1x use magic item) away from Paladin.
    The remaining Bandit was turned over to the Keep Guards.
    Paladin offered Zone of Truth for Interrogation.

    Fighter asked to see Court Mage.
    Fighter and AT killed rats for 4 hours (20 exp)
    Paladin got a 15 year old girl as a squire.

    Slept.

    6/4/1182 - Katerine needed at castle at 4 am.
    Court Mage will see Yorick two days from now at 6 am.

    (3/21/19)
    V Human - Champion Fighter 5
    Mt Dwarf - Mt Druid 5
    V Human - Devotion Paladin 5
    x Moon Elf - Arcane Trickster

    Paladin got directions to Location #8.
    Duergar Outpost.
    Cleared out 8 Guards.

    Took Duergar back to Twainsmeet, where the Dwarves took them prisoner. Party gained 2 Reputation each.
    Katerine cures her squire, then rests and cures herself.

    (4/11/19)
    6/6/1182
    Took on the rat problem, found a Kobold 6th level Underdark (Land) Druid, killed.

    Met the Gnome Forest ArchDruid. Wisperfowl
    Got the information for the Bandits Camp and the Kobold Lair.

    Party now knows about the killer bulls at the Elven Kingdom.

    Backstory: Druid met the Undeval Mayor, found that Adamantine was desired. Walked (with a cat) to the Diviner, and was Teleported to The Mt Dwarf's Kingdom. Met Ironjaws, and got Adamantine (10#) for Ebonystone (100#)

    Found out that cat was Drokkandormu the Young Bronze Dragon, and managed to get two lbs Voidstone.

    (5/2/19)
    Went to Feywatch Keep.
    Druid attacked Rogue for gems.
    Rogue was possessed by a revenger Weapon.
    Defeated a Flameskull and a Mind flayer.

    (5/9/19)
    V Human - Champion Fighter 5
    Mt Dwarf - Shepard Druid 5
    V-H - Oathbreaker Paladin 5
    V-H - Swashbuckler 3/Hexblade 2
    x Moon Elf - Arcane Trickster 5
    x V Human - 3 Wiz Conj/ 2 Warlock

    Update - Bandits have moved camp.

    Teleported into Feywatch Dungeon.

    6/7/1182 Teleported back to Twainsmeet Keep.

    6/8/1182 return to Dungeon.
    Paused in Dungeon.

    Party destroyed power-box in Feywatch.
    Paladin now setting up the Keep to be the political hub of the Region.

    Player traded Human Fighter for Tabaxi Factotum.

    (7/24)??
    Shipment of 300 lbs of steel within the next 3 days. 1d10 wagons.
    Spy Tiefling (M) Whisper Bard level 7 Hp
    Str 8 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 15

    Bandit Mage escaped and is now building his own smuggling and spy network.


    Feywatch Dungeon has been Defeated!
    Paladin now working on making this the Political Hub of this Region.
    Keep History



    **********
    *****

    Campaign Idea
    Council of Wyrms
    Spoiler: Dragon Campaign - TBD
    Show

    New Campaign, PCs to be added.

    Dragonborn and (Dragonwrought) Kobolds offered to New Players.

    (Full) Dragon Characters offered to Experienced Players.
    Started RL = 7/17/19
    *************
    start = 7/12/1956
    first (random) player = Uma Wood Elf Nature Cleric.
    25 exp
    Looking for Vermix Blackoak* the furniture merchant. Owns a Sawmill.
    *(LE. sHuman, Criminal Background, HP 24, AC 14) Seeking to buy into Noble Title.

    Bruce Deadhand Rude!!!
    (NE Half-Orc Barbarian 1)

    Stampeded the Giant Oxen!!
    Deliveries delayed a week.

    Met Pipilyn Farhawk #5, the Halfling Rogue (DMnpc)
    Sawmill - Cleric Damaged belt, Rogue jammed log saw and trapped DC 24

    (7/24)
    See quote info quote. I'll try and edit in some details when on my Tablet.


    Spoiler: Info and Game play
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @sandmote:

    I guess that I'm looking at comparing some other classes for effectiveness of the Warlock.

    Light armor and no shield is equal to the Rogue for AC.
    Which is where all other Warlocks are at.

    Hexblade's Medium Armor plus shield is equal to a Ranger. Getting a Dex of 14 isn't too hard.
    But, still gets Spells before said Ranger. With a slot refresh every Short Rest!

    So, high Armor Class, plus great to hit, plus spells at 1st level = OP. Seriously, why be anything else?

    Even the Druid is hard pressed to match all that, at 1st level.

    *****
    I'm still adjusting to the differences of 5e.

    See, until it was pointed out that the PC starts with everything that is on the starting equipment, limited only by choice A vs choice B, I thought that they only got one of the rows as a choice at all.

    So yeah, the newly made level 1 Paladin had Longsword, Chainmail, light crossbow, plus Background equipment, and 15 gold! I'm maybe too nice with Newby Players, since I allowed starting gold of 150 gold each.
    But, see below.

    (Rolled stats)

    So, the Paladin had AC 18 with shield doing 1d8+4 damage with +6 to hit - out the gate!! Which meant only needing a Roll of 6+ to hit AC 12 (at most) CR 1/4 stuff, and a roll of 4+4 (8) for (Average = 9) Damage dropped them, as well.

    But then I still rolled good enough for the Goblins (+4 attack and 6 damage per hit) to still hit the Paladin. And teamwork by Goblins, and a couple Natural 20s dropped said Paladin twice in the Session!

    Good thing the others had spent some of their starting gold on Potions of Healing!! Plus even with the DMpc Rogue having 2, they still had all of these used by end of the Session!

    The Party (Monk had Unarmored AC 17 and two attacks at +5 attack and 6 damage per hit; Ranger AC 16 +6 attack and +8 damage per hit) took out the Goblin Hideout (22 goblins and 3 wolves) by the end of the 4.5 hour Session, and even splitting the Exp 4 ways, they went to Level 2. (No Casters!!)

    So....... Yeah.
    *****


    Spoiler: Giants
    Show

    King Hekaton has vanished, and everyone suspects foul play!
    Without their mighty father the Daughters cannot hold the various Giant Tribes together.
    Serissa the Heiress cannot seem to keep either Mirran or Nym from bickering with each other.

    Iymrith - is here, but her work is slow. She is very frustrated.

    The Frost Giant Jarl Storvald - has only succeeded in cowing two Wyrmling White Dragons, their Parents are plotting (unsuccessfully, so far) their release. Villain.

    The Fire Giant Duke Zalto has dedicated himself to slaying All Dragons.
    Alliance with the Drow House Xorlarrin against the Dwarven fortress of Gauntlgrym, for how long?

    The Cloud Giant Countess Sansuri is indeed torturing Felgolos the Bronze Dragon for information on treasure locations. If you enter Sansuri’s castle, whose side will you choose?

    The Hill Giant Chieftess Guh - while she eats to become the Biggest Giant Ever. Her newest Husband () is starting a War to become the new Chief….

    The Ogre Chief CryzU has a Headband of Intellect and a magic Axe….

    The Stone Giant Thane Kayalithica is the Villain of her region.

    I don’t see much to change within the module, but that might change as Players do things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    More information.
    Click tiny arrow.
    Spoiler: Dragons
    Show

    HotDQ I’m not using Greennest. But I am keeping all the Dragons.
    Cult of the Dragon leaders Rezmir (#1), Frulam Mondath, and Langdedrosa Cyanwrath

    Cyanwrath is a half-blue dragon. (Might change to Blue Dragonborn. Champion Fighter)
    I’ll be using this braggart and his 8 Kobolds as a Distraction….

    Wyrmling (Party up to 7th level) Young (up to 12th level) Adult (up to 16th level) or Ancient (17+)

    Blue Dragon: Lennithon (can be a different Name for each Age, if desired) accompanied this raid but is not an enthusiastic participant. Its chief contribution has been its Frightful Presence, but that becomes less effective as the night wears on and defenders overcome their fear. Shortly before midnight, the dragon launches a final assault against the citadel.[b]Frulam Mondath[b] orders the attack, knowing that the adventurers are in the (target) at the time. Lennithon doesn’t consider this to be his fight, and it isn’t keen on tangling with adventurers for another’s benefit. During this attack, Lennithon flies over the keep and uses his breath weapon without moving closer than 25 feet from the structure.
    ******
    If the party needs a clue where to go I’ll use Nesim Waladra and Leosin
    Erlanthar
    , his missing Master.
    ******
    No changes to the Hatchery.
    *******
    Use things from the various Cities, and the Road as makes sense.
    Carnath Roadhouse makes a good ‘resting stop’.
    Castle Naerytar is next up.

    Voaraghamanthar is an adult black dragon who claims the Mere of Dead Men as his territory

    Dralmorrer Borngray an elf Wearer of Purple commands Castle Naerytar for Rezmir and is claiming it for the Cult of the Dragon (in name only; she considers it her personal property).

    Azbara Jos the Red Wizard has his own Agenda, keeping his plans carefully hidden.
    Unless useful, he eliminates Adventurers as quickly and quietly as possible.
    Ambushes at night with Greater Invisibility are a favorite tactic.
    *********
    Graypeak Mountain hunting lodge goes in. If they Party can figure out where that blasted Red Wizard went!!
    Talis the White is going to be a tough fight, unless they can convince her of their usefulness.
    ********
    Need to figure out where I want the Village of Parnast and Skyreach Castle.
    Unlike HotDQ, these Giants are not helping the Cult of the Dragon, and are in fact making moves against them.
    The Village is controlled by Ogres, and they report to Hill Giants, and they report to Blagothkus the Cloud Giant. While not overly concerned about the Lesser Races, Blagothkus has taken note of the increased Dragon activity, and is doing all he can to rekindle the Ancient War. As such, he is gathering Frost Giant allies. While he doesn’t care about non-Giants, he will attack any Dragonkin (including Dragonborn and Kobolds) to capture for interrogation. Once he has all the information they know, he kills them. Blagothkus knows there are Dragon Cult spies in the Village, and his Ogres are alert for suspicious activity.

    Put the Cultists in a basement somewhere in the village.
    The Red Wizards have their own secret base, since no one really trusts anyone else.
    Note: the Alliance is respected, and they all will band together against an obvious threat.

    RoT


    ******************************
    All posts greatly welcomed!!
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-11-03 at 01:39 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Humm. It will take some time to figure out what to replace these with.

    If you're interested in improving my idea/s, please post Suggestions in Ancient Realms.

    Thanks for responding.
    I'm suggesting the following spells as options:

    Elemental
    1 Absorb Elements, Chaos Bolt, Chromatic Orb
    2 Dragon's breath,
    3 Elemental Bane, Elemental Weapon
    4
    5

    Wings
    1 Feather Fall
    2 Wading Wind, Gust of Wind
    3 Wind Wall
    4
    5 Control Winds

    Frightful Presence & Metallic Dragon Secondary Breath
    1 Command, Heroism, Wrathful Smite
    2 Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Calm Emotions, Crown of Madness
    3
    4 Dominate Beast, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer
    5 Dominate Person

    Wisdom & Shapeshifting:
    1 Heroism
    2 Blur, Darkvision, Locate Animals or Plants, Locate Object, See Invisibility
    3 Blink, Clairvoyance, Locate Creature, Sending
    4 Arcane Eye, Greater Invisibility
    5

    And moving on to spells by dragon type

    Black/Copper
    1
    2 Acid Arrow
    3
    4 Vitriolic Sphere
    5

    Blue/Bronze
    1 Thunderwave
    2 Lightning Arrow
    3 Lightning Bolt
    4
    5 Telekinesis,

    Green
    1
    2 Alter Self, Protection from Poison, Spike Growth
    3 Water Breathing, Water Walk
    4
    5

    Red/Gold/Brass
    1 Searing Smite, Burning Hands
    2 Aganazzar’s Scorcher, Flame Blade, Heat Metal, Scorching Ray
    3 Fireball
    4 Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
    5 Flame Strike, Immolation

    White/Silver
    1 Ice Knife
    2 Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm
    3 Sleet Storm
    4 Fire Shield, Ice Storm
    5 Cone of Cold

    I have removed slow, as it (like polymorph) is available 1/day through an invocation.
    Extended Signature, Woo! Latest Homebrew: The Dhampire and the Way of Jotunslag

    WtCH pages: OOC, IC, Rolling

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    @sandmote:

    Thanks for posting those Suggestions!!

    I'll check them further; when less tired, and on my Tablet.

    Warlock Dragon patron Moved.

    Forgot to repost
    Spoiler: More
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post

    Really, I completely replaced Bane, and Ceric; and Vecna replaced Myrkil(?).

    @Psyren:
    I can very easily see Hell as being "second place is first loser" kind of place.

    (all comments are about my games
    I love seeing how others do things in the game.)

    Spoiler: Abyss
    Show
    The Abyss is the ultimate "Survival of the Fittest" place, but the chaotic nature of the Abyss itself tends to replace any Demon destroyed almost immediately.

    The Demon Lords are Top Dogs here, because they know how best to adapt to the chaos around them, and use it to their benefit.

    Even a Demon Lord will "respect" a Balor.
    They just aren't intimidated by it.


    Unlike Demons (that tend to either destroy - or eat - the loser) Devils prefer to exploit those they defeat.

    Though Devils will steal the power of a fallen foe to either increase their own power, or give it to a Devil that they can manipulate.

    Like I mentioned, there are two things that apply to Devils: Power and Status.

    All Devils have Power, even the Imp.

    All the Lesser Devils could be seen as having a lesser form of Status, but this is more based on the Devil's personal power in comparing between Devil types.

    Pit Fiends are top of the Devil Ladder.

    But Archdevils outclass them, with Status.

    And Archdukes truly dominate, by both Great Power and Status. An Archduke simply cannot be stupid: being so is a quick retirement plan, of the unpleasant kind.

    Now, things get a bit tricky, so bear with me.

    D&D made it where things are fairly simple, each Archduke in a Level of Hell has more "power" than Archduke of the Level above them, until the ninth level. But, to me, this is only the visible effect of their Status.

    Spoiler: Classic Fantasy Heroes in Hell
    Show

    You know the one where, by virtue of "being good", it was possible to physically fight your way out of Hell.

    This trope is so old, there are Fossils that call them Gramps!

    But, to me, this was simply not possible.

    Yes it was possible to achieve Redemption, but this was done by dint of staying true to yourself and your beliefs. Knowing when fighting was unavailable, and when combat was a moral trap.


    Now to me, part of the point of Hell, is that there is no satisfaction in having either Power or Status.

    Going into the different Archdukes of Hell would take more time than I have right now, so I'll add them later, if anyone's interested.

    So, the main focus was between Mephistopheles and Asmodeus.

    @Psyren: I agree that Asmodeus is more than "a short step above" Mephistopheles.

    But, I see Mephistopheles as being more than just "a short step above" the other Archdukes.

    I suppose that it's like all the Archdukes are aware of the "Meta" of their existence, but their own Flaws tend to blind themselves to their own weaknesses.

    Now, IMO, D&D made Asmodeus too much the "perfect" Archduke. To the point of making a mockery of Angels at his "Trial".

    Like there is absolutely no way that Mephistopheles (or any other Archduke) can ever defeat him.

    Yes, Asmodeus is very powerful.
    Yes, Asmodeus is super smart.
    But, Asmodeus can lose his Status.
    (Which would diminish his Power)

    Now, Asmodeus is very aware of this fact, which is why he constantly manipulates all the Archdukes against each other, and even uses the Archdevils, and Pit Fiends, in these schemes.
    (The stories of when this has backfired, are rarely told)

    But, like I said, Asmodeus is as much a Prisoner as he is a Ruler.

    So all the Archdukes are in the Ultimate Intrigue Game, and where (at least to outsiders) there doesn't seem to be any real change.

    For Mephistopheles, his lack of true "Status" (mostly because of his arrogance) in Hell, Combined with the need to "capture" mortal souls to increase said power, makes achieving any real chance of success for Defeating Asmodeus very difficult.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2020-01-03 at 04:15 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Not sure how often this will be updated, but here's:

    Spoiler: Drekekno 5e Silver Dragon Warlock
    Show

    Name Drekekno (Dree-KEK-no)
    Race Gold Dragonwrought Kobold
    Fire Bolt Cantrip. Limited Alter Self: Can manifest or absorb his wings, and change appearance to any other Kobold.

    Ht 3'3" * Wt 33. * Scales: dark yellow with golden metallic flecks.
    Age 5 * Move: 30 Fly 200 (poor) * Alignment: NG.
    +2 Dex -2 Str. 120' Darkvision. Pack Tactics.

    Str 7 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 9

    Background: Urchin. Investigation and Stealth.

    Warlock

    Languages: Draconic, Common; Undercommon, Gnome.

    I'm thinking that he will be the typical "Cowardly Kobold" in that he will never
    get into melee with anyone, and will immediately run away from anything that gets too close.

    Temper, Temper
    Don't be a-thinking that this means that he won't fight, it just means that he does so from at least 30 feet away.
    And with the ability to Fly 200 feet and still hit targets up to 250 feet away in the same Round, he's dangerous if angered!
    He knows this, too - since he's been able to do this from the very beginning.

    Also, he's Bluntly Honest with everyone.

    His 7 strength allows him to have up to 70# of equipment
    Studded Leather (10#) and a Waterskin (5#), Dungeoneer's Pack with 50 feet of silk rope,
    A Belt (1#) with 2 pouches (1#), and 4 Daggers.

    He carries 30 gp on him.


    Spoiler: Level progression
    Show

    WIP

    1st Ray of Frost and Eldritch blast cantrips, Witch Bolt and ??
    2nd invocations: Devil's Sight, See the Unseen.
    3rd Chain Pact: Pseudodragon
    4th Spell Sniper Feat
    5th Eldritch Spear Invocation

    Yes, I tend to plan Way Ahead!!


    Drekekno Start

    Drekekno options

    Spoiler: Dekekno's History
    Show


    Both Parents were Kobolds, and quit happy - until I came along.

    Born in the Kobold controlled Hidden Keep.
    ----
    Drekekno is the first born.

    Mithol (MY-throl) 2nd Born - Female Kobold. 1 Year younger.

    Uzzra (Uhzz-RA) - Female Winged Kobold. 3 years younger.

    Will work on History for these two as I have Time.
    -----
    Drekekno had several friends, and his childhood was generally a happy one.
    He wandered along throughout the caves near the Warren, and learned from Trapmasters how to find and disarm traps, as well as how to locate and open Secret Doors. He learned soft stepping and how to avoid detection from the Dragonshields dedicated to Silverstream.

    Drekekno became a Warlock because: Upon meeting Silverstream, he felt a connection that he instantly knew he was missing with his Family.

    Original = Back in the warren, he found the enormous skeleton of a dragon and slept inside the skull. Drekekno then had this dream where he spoke to a colossal Silver she-dragon, who showed him Secrets of Power.


    Spoiler: Silver Dragon
    Show

    The concept behind Drekekno is “Fire and Ice”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    I’ve seen nations rise and fall. I’ve seen wars fought, battles lost, battles won. I’ve seen celebrations turned to disasters and seen the people of Faerűn set aside prejudice and hatred to stand together against a common enemy.

    My true name is Sruthairgid, but the mortals called me “Silverstream” because of the way the moon reflected on my scales. I am an ancient Silver Dragon and I ache deeply from both physical and emotional wounds.

    Once, many centuries ago now, I fought in the Dragonfall Wars. I had made a mortal enemy in a – then adult – green dragon named Emereth. My once silver scales now bare several scars from the battles against Emereth that will never heal. In my last fight with Emereth, before she destroyed my eggs, she had torn my wing up so viciously that I knew I would never be able to fly again.

    But Emereth in all of her vile darkness struck a blow much more powerful than the scars I wear on the outside; Emereth, a female like myself, did what no other would dare think to do. She found my nest and destroyed the eggs of my children.

    I truly never recovered again. The strike had been one so devastating to my heart that I had lost the will to fight; dare I say, nearly lost the will to live. My home in the mountain fell to shambles, and even Kobolds grew fearless and took up residence in the same string of caverns that I called home. They would sneak into my portion of the cave and steal one gold coin at a time, thinking I was unaware. In truth, I simply did not care. All I had cared about was using my magic to preserve the shattered eggs from my nest; so terrified of losing everything. Broken as they were, they were a symbol of the children I should have had; deserved to have.

    After several generations, the Kobold chieftain, Beyark Tookator, approached me and asked to make an alliance with me, acknowledging that I was a dragon and that the Kobolds were descendants of dragons and that I was to be treated respectfully. Under Beyark’s rule all that had been stolen from me for generations was gradually returned; which was a nice gesture, but in truth they could have kept it all. I rewarded Beyark with a staff that was magical (doubting he’d ever learn how to trigger it; but it was an ornate staff with a dragon’s head at the top, holding a crystal ball).

    I was surprised – as was Beyark – six years later when he brought his son, Drekekno before me. Drekekno was different than the rest; his Kobold scales were gold in color, similar to a friend of mine. Beyark’s wife, a lovely Kobold named Unalewsa, began to accuse Beyark of cheeting on her (though she was always extremely polite to me, even after this “supposed” affair of Beyark"s).

    Drekekno was, I realized, a Dragonwrought Kobold; somewhere in his bloodline, there was indeed Draco Gold. I began to tend to Drekekno, training him how to harness magic that seemed to be innately natural to him; undoubtedly due to his bloodline. His father gave him the Old Staff, and Drekekno instantly activated it. I realized that, though I had lost my children to Emereth, Drekekno was like a son to me now. There seemed to be a connection between us, as while Drekekno's heritage was Fire, he seemed just as talented with Frost. I gave him everything, trained with him, and even ventured outside, beyond the cave to be with him. During these excursions, I even realized something, a truth about Metallic Dragons: We don't need wings to fly!

    Like any young dragon would, the time came where Drekekno wanted to see what was outside, beyond the world of the cave. I pried a small golden scale from him and cast a spell upon it and explained that no matter where he went now, I would be able to visit him in his dreams.

    I watched as Drekekno left for the world beyond; and once he was out of my sight, I settled down contently in the cave; and that’s when I noticed my shattered eggs from hundreds of years ago, had finally fallen apart, because I was no longer focused on them.

    I had a new son.

    And I was proud of him.

    His name was Drekekno, and I could see it in his eyes. He was full of life and hope, and great things were destined for his future…
    I also started to become interested in the rest of the Kobold tribe, concerned that my son's father might not be Chief upon his return to the caves. And perhaps I could find more children for myself...
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-09-08 at 05:15 PM.
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    Tawmis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Not sure how often this will be updated, but here's:
    Name Drekekno (Dree-KEK-no)
    Race Gold Dragonwrought Kobold
    Ht 3'3" * Wt 33. * Scales: dark yellow with golden metallic flecks.
    Age 5 * Move: 30 Fly 200 (poor) * Alignment: NG.
    Str 6 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 9
    the +1 LA went to Str.
    Drekekno had several friends, and his childhood was generally a happy one.
    I also started to become interested in the rest of the Kobold tribe, concerned that my son's father might not be Chief upon his return to the caves. And perhaps I could find more children for myself...
    There's some things with what I wrote for the Silver Dragon that contrast Drekekno's origin (since I didn't know Drekekno origin). So the Silver Dragon's origin (when Drekekno is mentioned) would need some tweaking or Drekekno's origin would need some tweaking (because it talks about Drekekno's parents being happy until he came along and such...)
    Need a character background written up? I'd be happy to write one up for you! Now with over 150 character backgrounds written! How can you help me? Not required, but appreciated, if you're so inclined! <3

    Check out my 5e Module The Secret of Havenfall Manor over at DMsGuild.com! (If you check it out - please rate, comment, and tell others!)

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    @Tawmis
    Thanks for posting!

    That's quite alright. I encourage you to keep that version of Drekekno for your Games.

    Martial versus Caster
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I actually like playing Mages, so I'll see what I can come up with.

    Spoiler: 5e Wizard
    Show

    So, level 10. No school.
    Figure Point Buy start.
    15 Int, 15 Con, 11 Dex, 10 Str, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.

    Let's say High Elf to get +2 Dex and+1 Int.
    16 Int 13 Dex
    Both ASIs into Int = 20. (Can't exceed)

    +4 Proficiency
    Skills: Elf: Perception.
    Sage (Apprentice) Background: Arcana, History.
    Two bonus Languages.
    Class: Insight, Religion.

    5 Cantrips. 4/3/3/3/2

    My Typical Adventuring spell list:

    Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Light, Message,
    Poison Spray, and Acid Splash.

    (4 slots) First Level
    Shield, Mage Armor

    (3 slots) Second Level
    Misty Step, Mirror Image.

    (3 slots) Third Level
    Counterspell, Fireball.

    (3 slots) Fourth Level
    Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer.

    (2 slots) Fifth Level
    Hold Monster, Rary's Telepathic Bond.

    5 bonus spells:
    (1st) Chromatic Orb
    (2nd) Hold Person
    (3rd) Haste
    (4th) Arcane Eye
    (5th) Passwall


    Now, the real question is what is in the
    Spoiler: Spellbook
    Show


    First level spells: Shield, Thunderwave, Detect Magic, Identify, Mage Armor, Chromatic Orb

    (2nd class lv) Feather Fall, Fog Cloud.

    Second Level spells: Misty Step, Mirror Image,
    (4th class lv) Hold Person, Detect Thoughts

    Third level spells: Counterspell, Fireball.
    (6th class Level) Haste, Fly.

    Suggested Stop?

    Fourth level spells:
    Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer.
    (8th class level)
    Arcane Eye, Mord's Private Sanctum

    Fifth level spells:
    Hold Monster, Rary's Telepathic Bond.
    (10th class level)
    Passwall, Teleportation Circle.

    Currently not giving any extra spells from treasure.


    As can be expected, Wiz has some options, but not every spell available can be prepared.

    Again, switching out spells Requires knowing what is needed ahead of time, and the Baddies should not allow an 8 hour break to change things. Heck even a Short Rest might be tricky getting.

    Spoiler: calculations
    Show


    So, sacrifice a 1st level slot for 8 hours of Mage Armor, keep at least one slot in reserve for Shield. Leaving two slots for Orb.

    Three slots for 2nd Level: At least one use of Mirror Image during a fight. Save one for Misty Step, leaves only one left.

    Three slots for 3rd Level:
    One slot for Haste, one slot reserved for Counterspell, only one slot left.

    Three slots for Fourth Level:
    One slot for Phantasmal Killer, one reserved for Greater Invisibility, and most likely one Arcane Eye used to help Party Scout/Rogue

    Two slots for Fifth Level:
    One slot for Rary's Telepathic Bond, one slot reserved for Hold Monster.

    Short Rest: Even if getting 5 levels of slots back, still limited to what is already memorized, so up to player to decide what might be useful.
    Teleportation Circle escape?

    Once out of all spell slots, must spam Cantrips.


    Figure some Random (1d6) moderate, at least two Hard and maybe one Deadly - Encounters per "Adventuring day".

    Fireball is needed for large groups.
    Competes with Counterspell against enemy casters.

    Invisibility requires Concentration, and there are still ways to detect, and attackers only have Disadvantage to hit while active.

    Mirror Image only possibly prevents three hits during a fight. (Actually less effective than Dodge Action)

    No listed magical items: DM dependant.

    Oh, and for non-combat comparisons:
    No Spider Climb, or Knock (etc) spells available.

    Fly has limited speed and duration, and requires Concentration; maximum four times a day, if willing to not have any other third level spells available. Upcasting it isn't really worth doing, unless doing Party Travel.

    Creative Players and DMs that actually care, can do these - with, or without, magic.

    Spoiler: Wizard spell progression
    Show

    Maximum of 5 Cantrips.

    01 6 first level spells
    02 +2 first leel spells
    03 2 second level
    04 +2 spells
    05 2 third level spells
    06 +2 spells
    07 2 fourth level spells
    08 +2 spells
    09 2 fifth level spells
    10 +2 spells
    11 2 sixth level spells
    12 +2 spells
    13 2 seventh level spells
    14 +2 spells
    15 2 eighth level spells
    16 +2 spells
    17 2 ninth level spells
    18 +2 spells
    19 +2 spells
    20 +2 spells


    Remember that getting spells is also controlled by the DM, and how easy it is to find Scrolls as treasure.
    Most NPC Wizards horde and protect their Spellbooks like a Dragon does with Treasure!!

    *****
    So, please point out how that Wizard still outclasses the "I don't need magic" PCs?
    Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    5e Barbarians doubling there HP against Physical Attacks are miles ahead of their 3x versions, with Bear Totem being leagues.
    (And people homebrewing feats to resist the only energy that hurts them.
    And now "official" races that grant that.)

    For raw effectiveness comparison, you'd have to go back to when the Barbarian was first introduced. When it was considered game breaking, along with Cavalier, and Monk.

    Fighter get the best Armor options, and Indomable for more ways to break free of magical control/restraining effects.

    Mages are more worried about maxing out their Casting stat, with a maximum of DC 19 and +11 to hit.
    (without a Wand of the Warmage: which adds +3 at most)

    That's a 50/50 bet against Warriors with Plate, shield, and Defense style. Magic added to AC means that the Mages need to roll a 16+ to hit. (Also against Monsters with AC 27)

    Fighters can sac 4 (of 7) feats for Resistance, to get Proficiency in all saves. Which is a roll of 8+ on a d20.

    Other Martials could also get all saves, and have one feat to spare, with vHumans having another.

    Maybe I just think in ways that don't always seem right to others?

    To me
    Mana/Psionic Points? Too much Math, and extremely exploitable. Especially in 5e.

    Psychic Warriors are just variant Eldritch Knights.

    Soulknife might be a Rogue Subclass.
    It's just a weapon that can't be easily lost, with maybe a few tricks added?
    Really, wouldn't be any more OP than, say, a Swashbuckler.

    Psion is just a Sorcerer type.

    Forget Wilder, seems to me that overchannel breaks Bounded Accuracy.

    *****
    Tome of Battle classes are just six different versions of either Battlemaster Fighter (something other than Superiority Dice needed), or Six new Monk Subclasses with level based # known and x/day Discipline powers (which might fit the theme better)
    (which is just a limited Slot system, to me)

    Where Stances might be a Bonus Action to activate, last no longer than a minute, and requires Concentration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You cannot take the resistance feat more than once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    ARG! Some things in 5e just don't make sense.

    So, I suppose that this will just become part of my Homebrew.
    Should make it more 'balanced' for martials.
    Lower Spell Slots. Limited Spells Known/day.
    Concentration and Foci and/or Component requirements.

    No Wish. No endless Simulacrum. No Demiplane/s.
    Switch Astral Projection and Plane Shift.
    New = Put a CR cap on Gate?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-06 at 02:14 PM.
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    No offense is intended by anything I post.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Ok. I got to thinking and wondered that giving Immunity (even with Vulnerability) to Dragonwrought Kobolds might be too much.

    Now I'm instead considering:
    Keep the Energy Resistance, drop the Breath Weapon (Reverse?)
    and maybe a limited form of Alter Self?
    Allows them to add/remove the wings and even look like any other type of Kobold as an Action.
    Maybe usable once per short rest?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    Or give them racial access to an elemental damage cantrip, similar to a Dragonborn's breath weapon but, well, smaller.
    I’m thinking on giving this as well as Wings to Dragonwrought Kobolds.
    Thanks, Nagog!

    Edit/update
    I've given Dragonwrought Kobolds a limited Alter Self ability:
    Can hide/reveal wings and look like any other Kobold.

    I've also given them a Cantrip that does damage based on the Breath Weapon of the Dragon they are related to.

    Advantage to Persuasion when dealing with other Draconic creatures.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2020-01-06 at 07:13 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Ancient Realms

    Waterdeep
    Spoiler
    Show
    I mostly use this City because it sits on top of Undermountain, which I love to use.

    1) I'm too lazy (right now) to sit down and figure out every little detail (Rulers, Nobles, Guilds, Criminals, Factions, etc) of a Major Coastal Trade City.

    2) There are lots of online information on the blasted place that I can just tell Players to go and look up instead of wasting Game Time explaining it to each player (because there's almost always a late arrival.)
    Once they do that, explaining changes is lots easier. I kept only a few of the Old n/PCs.

    Mirt the Moneylender and Unmasked Lord. Durnan the owner of the Yawning Portal.
    Xanathar (Although the current one might get replaced. See Hunting Xanathar here) and his Guild.
    I actually kept the Noble Family from Dragon Heist.
    I'm undecided about "Manshoon".

    I don't really like the Seven Sisters, or Elminster (too much Dues Ex Machina), so they are gone. I haven't had anyone actually try and go talk to the Open Lord of Waterdeep (which is still female) so haven't really thought about who and what she is, although i might do that by the end of the month.

    3) I love the Masked Lords. Really keeps those Murder-Hobos in check. Never knowing when they are going to attract the attention of at lease one, and more importantly - never knowing who any of them are.


    Undermountain

    For my games, I have and currently use Dungeon of the Mad Mage.

    However, I also have everything I can find on Undermountain from each D&D Edition, and will use things out of those to mix things up

    I've changed some of the restrictions that was put in here.

    Divination spells only work on the Dungeon Level they are cast on.

    Teleportation out of the Dungeon is allowed and fairly easy.
    Returning to where you were last time, is also usually allowed.
    Any kind of transportation magic used to get into the Dungeon (Plane Shift, Teleporting to a destination other than above) can have some rather interesting random outcomes, though.

    Minor Transportation effects (Misty Step, Thunderstep, Blink, Dimension Door, and even Etherealness) are usually unaffected, although there is a chance that Halaster will take notice (and mess with it) if used too much. Especially if used to avoid/escape the Challenges he puts up, too often.

    Spells that affect the environment or the Dungeon itself are not Permanent, including Walls of Stone, Stone Shape, or Disintegration cast on Dungeon Walls or Doors.

    The Portals between Dungeon Levels are still there, but I've also put in stairs between these Levels, so that Players have more choices.

    Monsters are usually prevented from traveling between Levels of the Dungeon by Wards, although Humanoids are (usually) not restricted.

    Spoiler: Undermountain - Game TBD
    Show

    Session One
    V-Human Rogue Thief
    This guy was the one in the group that managed to make a persuasion check good enough to get most of the members of the “Vampire” Gang to convert to his leadership.

    New Gang: Yeah, this was not even close to a challenge to a 5th level party.
    As such I’m making one of the Leaders a Vampire Spawn with orders not to make any more Vampires.

    I’m taking away the Flesh Golem and making it an Encounter elsewhere.


    I need to do more research (and then changes) on Balder's Gate.

    The City I normally don't like to use is Neverwinter. Didn't really play the game and few players want to go that far North.

    But, I'm actually interested in a City further inland and away from the Coast. Suggestions?

    Thoughts on Warrior enhancement
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Feat
    Power Attack: Subtract Proficiency from attack to deal double that value in damage. Applies to both melee and ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave
    Fighting Style: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger.

    3rd level: Kill a foe and attack another within 5 feet.

    6th: No limit to foes attacked, so long as the last was killed.

    10th: Take a 5 foot free move while Cleaving foes.

    14th: Able to use full movement while Cleaving Foes.[/Spoiler]

    Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Assuming that failing to charm a general can have negative side effects, but failing to Persuade a general can't, is obviously going to make charm seem useless. But that's not a pair of assumptions that are always going to be accurate.


    Again, why are you ignoring the possibility of Things Going Wrong for non-magical plans? I'd argue that the non-dominated general is more vulnerable to Things Going Wrong, because anything which disrupts the premises of the arguments you made to them could ruin your whole deal.

    ...Add an ability that lets the fighter attack for increased damage? Maybe something like the barbarian's Reckless Attack, where you accept advantage-to-hit for double damage?


    Quite probably. Which is why it probably makes more sense to make Cleave a Battlemaster maneuver than an entire fighting style. (Maybe Power Attack, too, if you want it to not overlap with GWM/Sharpshooter.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Partly because the effects of failure for the spell are listed in the book, and aren't for a failed Skill Check.

    Mostly due to how the OP was started - ie "Martials are greatly overshadowed by casters" - that I put in my comments about how limited a lot of these "Auto Win" spells really are. Or at least, could be.

    Most DMs that I've heard about, don't really have too much trouble dealing with mundane Challenges;
    Depending on the DM, and Personality of the General, the odds of said General making their Save and immediately having the Caster and/or Party executed can be a lot higher: where maybe the worst that happens on a failed Diplomacy would be arrest and imprisonment. With Exile next worst, and being given a Quest being maybe the best.

    Things Going Wrong
    Is kinda the DM's job.

    Now I can't think of every possible thing that the PC/s are going to try, but I can plan for things that are listed in the book (spells) or that are the most likely to be used (Skills).
    And Improve the rest.

    Well, with the Fighting Style, I was hoping to help more Classes than just one Class' Subclass.

    Maybe keep it a feat? Two at most?

    Cleave including knockdown? (Str Save? Or opposed Str Check?)

    Cleaving Terror: can Dash (Bonus Action?) so long as Cleaving?
    can even think of some Out of Combat uses for those.

    Imagine being in the bar with the Martial having the Cleave feat, being able knock down those people between them and their target (person or the door), and other Party members just following in the cleared path behind them!

    Or that Martial getting Cleaving Terror plowing through the crowded market without even slowing down!!
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    That's not a great reason to fit a square peg in a round mechanic. Maybe find some non-Cleave-line derivative way to boost martial classes?
    No new ideas at this time.

    Spoiler: More stuff to ponder
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Yes, the Town Guard not having at least Perception (both spot and listen for 3x) and Insight as skills didn't make much sense to me.

    Using Points for Powers seems too much like 3x Psionics.
    Giving ‘casters’ more options, and Lots more for everyone to keep track of.
    The most unbalancing thing there was sacrificing lower level points for extra higher level powers.

    ****
    IMO 5e is a little more "balanced" than 3.5.

    Casters have Less Slots to use, but able to choose from any available spell of that level.
    Upcasting costs a higher level choice. (and does not add any extra higher level spells, see Psionics above.)

    Concentration required for more spells. Which Stopped "Super Untouchable" combinations.

    *********
    For spells: First, ditch Wish.
    That's only available from Powerful beings:
    Noble Genies, Arch-Devils/Dukes, Balor/Demon Lords, Archfey, and maybe Solars.
    (Sure, most Deities can do it, but their 'Price' is usually higher.)
    And no sympathy for those Players unhappy with the creative ways a DM 'screws the Wish up' !!!

    If you want to allow Wizards to cast Cleric/Druid spells of 7th level or less with a 9th level spell slot, put in the 9th level Any Spell that the 3x D&D Magic Domain had.

    Personally, I’d also switch Plane Shift and Astral Projection.

    Have Miracle work like Wish normally does (without the 33% never cast again) in that the caster must be specific about what is asked for, and is still limited to the Portfolio and Domains of their Deity.
    *****
    Adding Tome of Battle for non-caster types?
    Without taking actual levels in the respective Classes?
    Maybe.
    I’d really have to have a Playtesting Group to figure this out for 5e.
    I did like the look of these, but sadly never had any players for them.
    *****
    Perhaps some 3e/5e combination might work?
    You're going to have to find some Playtesters to really work the kinks out.
    *****
    For me running a 3x variant game:
    I’d keep the 5e skill style, instead of tracking each Skill point spent per level.
    Racial, Background (2 skills), and then what is given for the base 5e Class
    (maybe just extra Languages for Int.)

    Oh, and just keeping in mind that Dis/Advantage is a five point modifier.
    *****
    While I liked 3x for more Class Options (and easier to balance Monsters for ECL/CR calculations), 5e just flows better for actual play for me.
    (The 20th level Fighter getting up to Eight attacks at +11 to hit each - without magic, plus Subclass options - really helps “balance” this class more.)

    Flexible DMs can help with the non-combat stuff for martials.
    *****
    With fewer 3x D&D (non-Pathfinder) dedicated players and lots more 5e players, I have been converting some of the 3x Classes (some better balanced than others - Factotum = ARG!!) into 5e, most as Subclasses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie
    <snip> And that was a serious problem -- playing a magic user with all the constraints (that existed to make them balanced with everyone else) turned on was often seen as systematically unfun. That's the why for it moving away from that model in subsequent editions, but they never really constrained the power at the same rate as they eliminated constraints.
    IDK, 5e seems a lot more "Balanced" than all the other versions of D&D.

    As I mentioned somewhere: Fewer Spell Slots per Spell Level, plus breaking up Known Spells between all Spell Levels (or a set value for maximum): plus Concentration on a lot of really useful/powerful spells.

    Still want to add a little more OSR?
    All spell components are consumed, and the DM determines what spells can be cast with a Focus.
    Mostly an Accounting Tax, but not having the correct component for the spell you want when you need it is a great drawback, for 'balencing'.

    ****
    I rarely have very many problems with Casters in my games, regardless of System/Edition.

    First, foes aren't stupid.
    Even basic Animals show amazing adaptability IRL.
    Good Wis means that they learn fast, after a mistake is made. Int 6+ means maybe before the mistake is even made.

    Next, sentient Races (usually Humanoid, but exceptions do exist) can just as easily be Classed as the PCs. (Figuring out 5e CR for some of these sometimes frustrates me)
    (both Volo's and Mord's have some of these, now)

    Finally, put more Spellcasters and magic-using foes in Encountered Groups.
    (For PC groups without any spellcasters, maybe cut them a break, and either remove these foes, or at least lower the Caster level of them. A challenge is quite fine, but overwhelming firepower is just - to me - a killjoy.)

    Also, I tend to use more items with non-renewing Charges.
    Especially Wands and Staves.
    For those items that do recharge daily, increase the Rarity by one level.
    Remember that Legendary Items are not casual treasure, and are not for sale.

    Note: I also predetermine Treasure (especially magical) and have smart foes use these against the PCs.
    Earn that +2 flaming sword!
    Or Wand of Fireballs (8d6 damage, DC 15) with 20 charges!!
    Especially when used against you! Much shenanigans!

    *one of many, another being not being able to choose what spells you got, and a tasty spell was as likely to come along for you as the fancy sword was for the fighter
    Yep, those scrolls (spellbooks were always in the Rare+ category) were indeed randomly determined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Well, one third thing is the treasure table. Somewhere along the way gamers (or at least forum-goers) decided that 'but fighters can use magic swords, which often have as much power as wizards' was not an acceptable answer to the fighter-mu split, but there's no specific reason it can't be. Of course, that depends on whether you are trying to balance magic with non-magic (which I think is genuinely futile, as 'gets to break the rules' is going to almost inherently be more powerful than 'has to work within the rules'), or just casters with non-casters (which is doable, and plenty of systems have).
    Lots of those anti-mage players didn't like magical weapons (or other items) because they were made by some Caster, which made them think that this caused said casters to have more power over their characters, or get additional bonuses. See Crafters, below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie
    <snip> (you do start over at level 1 every time you die, right? Riiiight?)
    So, anyone got your back with a (pre)Paid-For Rez type spell (scroll)?

    If not: While I won't make you start over at 1st level, I might say that the replacement PC is one level less than the Party. (Heh)

    Spoiler: Magic Crafters
    Show
    Frankly, I find Magic Item Creation Casters incredibly boring.
    (Non-magic, too. I came to play a tRPG, not a version of Minecraft!!)

    Sure, the quick one-time-use useful item (Common, or Uncommon) - or a +1 weapon that lasts maybe a month - for maybe a week of downtime and some gold spent, and a roll on the random “Mishaps” chart in XgE. Done.

    But, seriously, anything magical that either lasts longer - or is more potent - really takes too long; and an Adventuring Caster is not going to like sitting on their tush for really Long Periods of Time making magical stuff while everyone else is out having fun (and gaining Levels and lots more Loot) without them.

    Really, the only time that you would want to play a Crafter, is in a Low Magic World.
    In which case - Accept the loss of EXP and GP, and play another PC so your not sitting there bored during the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Willie
    Can you expand upon this? What's the problem with Factotums? They are one of my favorite late-3e classes (for playing in the tier 3-4 power balance that they clearly were trying to normalize at that point). What problems are you having?
    Sadly, when I tried doing this Class, like at least two other members decided to make their own versions, and mine simply got ignored.

    Spoiler: Factotum
    Show
    Now, no one ever tried to play this Class in any of my 3x gaming days.

    And in fact, I was unaware of its existence until asked by one of my 5e players.

    Looking it up, and reading it over; this class seemed to out-do all the Jack of All Trades Skill Monkeys. Literally able to use Rogue Skills and Divine Powers plus Arcane spell-like abilities, and in a way that the Bard (even in 5e) couldn't really match.

    My attempt was Here

    It was basically it's own Class - with two Subclasses, gaining and casting spells like a Warlock.

    The player that was testing that, said that this just didn't feel like the "Versatile" character to him.

    Said he should be able to change spells daily, like a Wizard, to demonstrate that versatility.
    (On top of all the other 'versatile' stuff I had for Factotum)

    So I basically had to rewrite it, as a Wizard-type Half Caster, with half level + Int in Spells Known up to 5th level, and that still gets Spell Secrets like a Warlock for spells over 5th; Taking away Bard Spell choices (too many healing options) and also not allowing 9th level spells. Secrets unlocks some Bard spells, but no Cleric-specific spells.
    Mostly Healing, Restoration, Resurrection, and similar.

    One thing he might not have realized (yet) is that the Factotum starts out with only 2 + Int Spells known, and while they do gain Slots for higher Level spells, they are required to find these on their own.
    This means that his spellbook has very few spells to choose from.


    We haven't returned to the game where this Class was being tested (they wanted to make Characters to take on Xanathar, so we're doing that for a bit - and now doing my Star Wars game towards the end of each Month, with one other GM running another tRPG on the first week of each Month) so not sure how soon playtesting will resume.

    If anyone is interested in trying to help me figure out how to finish this idea, please let me know - and I'll (legally) Necro the thread. I'd have to find where I made the notes on the changes, again.
    Spoiler: More stuff to ponder
    Show



    Spoiler: Spellbook
    Show
    Wizard spells in book for 5e:
    Knows maximum of 5 Cantrips;
    4d10 max damage at +11 to hit or DC 19 save.

    (01) 6 first Level spells
    (02) +2 first level spells = 8 first Level spells
    (03) 2 second Level spells
    (04) +2 second Lv spells
    (05) 2 third Level spells
    (06) +2 third Level spells
    (07) 2 fourth Level spells
    (08) +2 fourth Level spells
    (09) 2 fifth Level spells
    (10) +2 fifth Level spells
    (11) 2 sixth Level spells
    (12) +2 sixth Level spells
    (13) 2 seventh Level spells
    (14) +2 seventh Level spells
    (15) 2 eighth Level spells
    (16) +2 eighth Level spells
    (17) 2 ninth Level spells
    (18) +2 ninth Level spells
    (19) +2 any Level spells
    (20) +2 any Level spells

    So, at 20th rank Wizard, this break down to 8 spells of first level and Four spells per spell level, plus 4 extra spells (any level) in their Spellbook. Costing 2,000+ gold.

    Unless the DM is nice and gives Intelligence modifier to Spellbook per level, in found spells:
    9 spells per level, with 9 random spells.
    Like - at least a 10,000 gold investment.


    Spoiler: Ramblings
    Show
    What I'm thinking is that it's not the spell slots that upset people; as always - it's the spells themselves.

    People playing Mundane Martials don't like the fact that Casters can do about the same amount of damage they do to a single foe, but to a Group of foes. Never mind that successful Saves can reduce that even more, plus having damage type Resistant and even Immune Monsters.

    Also, without those AoEs - the party would quickly be overwhelmed and end in a TPK.

    Spoiler: Why
    Show
    do these people hate using Magical Items to grant them access to the things they are complaining about? Fly, Invisibility, etc?

    Heck, there are now lots more Half-caster Subclasses available to Martials.
    Even the Barbarian has a couple Subclasses with some really cool magical Abilities, if used correctly.

    Ok, sure, maybe being able to Climb the 50 foot Wall at 20th Rank, without Spider Climb, should be allowed.
    But not freely moving about on the ceiling.

    If they really want real-life combat simulations, especially without Magic - they should just play World War 1 & 2 and similar Military Wargames or maybe Cyberpunk - or Spymaster (etc), instead of Fantasy/D&D.


    Another thing that is usually overlooked during those "Martial vs Mage" debates, is that in each situation, the Player must choose if they need to spend a limited resource on 'insta-solving' it.

    Because: Once out of Spell Slots, all Mages are very much screwed. Clerics just don't rely on magical armor to be protected, and can still hit as good as a Martial. Bards have a few things that can be done, once out of Slots, but very limited.


    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    @Morty:
    Casters Being Binary is actually meant to be a real limit. Spells are not like skills.
    They do one thing, and it either works, or not.

    All things you listed are situations where the Player is as Challenged as the Character. Knowing how to use/do stuff without magic can be just as fun as Nuking the Hobgoblin Army.
    Fighters can sac 4 (of 7) feats for Resistance, to get Proficiency in all saves. Which is a roll of 8+ on a d20.

    Other Martials could also get all saves, and have one feat to spare, with vHumans having another.
    (Homebrew option)

    Maybe I just think in ways that don't always seem right to others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    Now, I have removed Wish from the Mage's list.

    Put a limit on how many Simulacrum one Mage can have.

    And Genesis (now called Demiplane) is an Epic level power, that is also available to Clerics.
    (Druids can do it, but most prefer to just go to the Feywild)
    Literally making your own Demi-Plane isn't something that should just be readily available to every Mage.

    I have other 'solutions' to Mages being OP, as well.

    D&D Psionics was its own ball of WTF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It mistakes tedium and the sell / no-sell arms race for game balance, and where the List of Awesome leaves a hole, it falls back on a List of Symmetrical Completeness.
    I've kinda always believed that there should be more sell / no sell conditions for magic.

    But, with actual reasons for why and usable rules for how they work.
    5e Energy Resistance is better then 3x, and Immunity is a flat no sell to the energy type.

    Sadly, I don't have anyone near me to work on figuring these things out, and doing it over the net usually doesn't work, without lots of trial and error - and most folks here have things they would rather do.
    Like figure out how to better optimize their latest Broken Character idea...
    Not everyone, but....
    Let me see: Counting the People here, plus Tawmis, Man_Over_Game, Segev, PheonixPhyre and Grod_The_Giant.
    I'd have to go though some of my old posts to find anymore.
    (I'm at least trying)

    While I'm a fan of D&D, I do my best to not be closed minded towards other RPGs. Including 4e D&D.
    I just can't get interested in them without people to play them with.
    And I can't really do more then maybe 4 games a week, without mental burnout.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1
    No problem. I was mostly highlighting that "if I reply to you, it does not imply I am contradicting you". This subthread started when you asked why people might still want more flexible martials even if you were nerfing the power of casters. So I described the desire for flexible martials in a manner that was independent of the power/flexibility of casters and also independent from the power of martials (the latter being emphasized by the comments about flexibility =/= power).
    Sorry, i was stuck on comparing your answers against a caster, instead of just against other martials.

    And while thinking on how to have someone do something beyond the normal limits is how spells were made, they don't work outside of /magic.

    Which is not what is wanted, atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1
    As I said earlier, I cannot imagine mechanics for the highest level martials. My imagination has a limit. I can create mechanics for a 10th level Fighter slaughtering an army:
    1) Sweeping attack: Each melee attack hits 3 squares worth of foes. Makes even more sense if your movement can happen between attacks.
    2a) Volley ranged attacks: Shooting a volley of attacks, make a ranged attack at a penalty against each enemy in a 10ft radius.
    2b) Larger ranged attacks: Throwing a large object, make a single ranged attack at a penalty. It targets each enemy in a 10ft radius.

    This is difficult but it is flexibility, not power, that martials lack and the player want. Attempts to merely staple on magic/casting solutions (see Tome of Battle) only work for some player. So the alternative is this process of recognizing the limits of imagination and then breaking through them.
    With some of the things from 3x I can imagine #1 of the above.
    But, it requires expenditure of a resource most will complain about: Feats.
    It starts with
    Power Attack. For 5e this would be reduce to hit by Proficiency to deal double that value in damage. (Power boost. Keep going.)

    Cleave - drop one foe and attack next within 5 feet.
    (Flexibility?)

    Great Cleave - no limit to number of foes dropped within 5 feat.
    (Power + Flexibility?)

    Supreme Cleave - as Great, but also 5 foot move, and continue Cleaving until missing or failing to drop a foe.
    (Flexibility?)

    Trail of Blood - Cleaving attacks up to full movement speed, so long as dropping foes.
    (Power + Flexibility?)

    So, Q (1) would keeping these as feats in 5e be enough to achieve some of the higher level flexibility for martials? That way both fighters and Barbarians have equal access.

    Or Q (2) would those be better as things that are added to the base features of one class?
    Most likely Barbarian.

    I believe that (1) is closer to the goal.

    #2 is what the Ranger's Hail of Thorns spell does.
    Limited to only one class, and therefore not wanted.

    #2b can be pushing Believably - even in a Fantasy Game.
    A Halfling even with a 20 str should't be able to pick up a 10' diameter two ton rock and throw it 100 feet. (without serious magic!!)

    um, still sympathizing with both authors and sad players.....

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Struck by a thought. Have to write it somewhere:

    A way to make a flexible martials without limited resources / spellcasting:
    Start with a variety of basic endeavors: Attack, Movement, ..., ..., etc
    I suggest having the number of endeavors per turn and out of turn increase with level.
    Have a chapter of alterations: Knockback, Power Attack, ..., etc
    Alterations are not feats, you get access to all the ones you satisfy the unlock requirement for. No feats needed here.
    Each option in the chapter of alterations will have:

    [1] An unlock requirement. For example Knockback might require Str 15, or Athletics Proficiency, or a Paraglider, or ..., etc

    [2] A requirement of the endeavor it will modify. For example Knockback would require the endeavor contacts the target of the knockback

    [3] A complexity cost. This prevents you from apply every compatible alteration each time you use an endeavor. Complexity ranges from 0 to some positive number. Negative complexity costs do not exist.

    [4] An effect (duh) which might scale or even trigger another endeavor. Knockback might have distance scale off of an Athletics check, or maybe it kicks off a Pushing endeavor to determine the distance.

    Each time the character uses an endeavor (and that can be multiple times per turn or out of turn) they can modify it with alterations up to some complexity cap (which increases with level).

    So you have martials whose flexibility scales with: (content created, complexity cap (mostly direct level scaling), and achieving unlock thresholds (indirect level scaling)).

    So you could have someone use this system to do things like:
    [A] Hit a boulder for fast travel
    [5] Give an ally cover as a reaction
    and many more
    I've noticed that Extra Actions are kinda hard outside Legendary Actions.

    I can see Bonus and Reaction options being added, though. (Unless you meant completely rewriting the game Mechanics?)

    (1) Ok.

    (2)Bonus Action: Knockback:
    Opposed Str check or
    Str Save? (DC 8 + Proficiency + Str mod)

    (3) complexity could be either Proficiency times per round (so not limited to just BA/RA) or perhaps on some other Ability - like Con?

    (4) maybe knockback is opposed Str with the loser being shoved the difference between the Scores?

    (5) Either as a Reaction with Protector Style?
    or sacrifice your Bonus Action next round?

    (A) Uses BA and move, but triples normal jumping distance in combat? O-C maybe double hourly travel rates for Con mod hours?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1
    As for imagination. I am mostly describing the kind of imagination limit. Other than understanding the limit, I don't have tips on how to expand that imagination. Although simply following this thread has helped me expand it slightly. I really was underestimating the flexibility movement speed (combined with additional actions mid move).
    Einstein said that Imagination is more important than Knowledge.

    But IMO/E Knowledge is the foundation of Imagination.

    Knowledge tells what is already possible,
    Imagination reaches for new limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1
    The 3rd edition feats were an improvement from earlier versions. They let the martials gain at-will access to a limited number of combat tricks. Turns out the limitation of feats did not map well for growing flexibility with level. I attempt to address this below by having the alterations have unlock requirements rather than costing feats.

    Yes you could increase 5E martial flexibility by combining a bunch of 3rd edition feats and class features as a 5E feat. For example look at the War Hulk prestige class and turn that into a feat named War Hulk which gives access to Sweeping attacks and Large ranged attacks. Sometimes expanding the flexibility will require making your own content / feats / class features.

    Or yes, maybe adding more features to the base classes / subclasses would be a good idea. Avoid increasing the vertical power of the class too much (some is okay) because it is the horizontal power that is desired.
    There are things that 3x D&D had that don't convert to 5e very well.

    Making the War Hulk a feat could be neat, but in order to prevent too much O.P needs a limit. Maybe treats thrown objects as being proficient, but with maybe a 25/50 foot range?
    Can use Extra Attack, but not Two-weapon Fighting or Multi-attack?

    You could change Hail of Thorns from a Ranger spell into a basic combat option at 6th+ or 11th+ level. Use an accuracy penalty to rebalance.
    I would most likely do so at 11th level, mostly to not overshadow the Ranger's coolness too early.

    Fair, maybe it is not a 2 ton boulder. Just a large object. If 20 strength can lift it then it probably hurts several goblins. Maybe it even skids across the ground like a comet.
    Let me see (5e) 20 Str times 15 = 300 pound rock. Um, how big would that be?
    Like maybe a 3 foot diameter rock? Figure being able to throw that 10 feet with no problem, and maybe up to 20 feet at disadvantage? A Medium sized creature could throw that 15/30.
    A Large creature could maybe throw that 20/50?

    Since this is the general RPG area I was spitballing new mechanics.
    This kind of system would be more aimed at if someone was authoring a new edition of an RPG.
    Without some idea of the mechanics they would be using for the engine, I'll stick with what I (mostly) know.

    You have good ideas. I expect you could make your own list of alterations.
    Wow! Thanks!!!

    5) I was thinking of using a reaction to hit an object between your ally and the attack.
    So the Hold Person spell fails because it hits the object instead.
    Well, for 5e, I could see doing that giving Advantage to the Save....
    Other RPGs might allow negation.

    To convert to 5E D&D maybe:
    1) Replace Extra Attack with an Extra Endeavor per turn.
    2) Let all martials do an Endeavor as a reaction. (Different martials get access to different ones as reactions?)
    3) Complexity limit per Endeavor is equal to their Proficiency
    4) Have Attack, Move, Push, ... as some base Endeavors
    5) Push would move a target further with a higher success. Additionally it could be used on objects.
    6) Rebalance these.
    7) Some alterations
    (1) I'd rather make it where Endeavors could be added to each attack, but maybe limited number of uses per round - see #3. Martials (other than Rogues) don't really get a lot of things to use BAs/RAs on. I'm not sure, though. Some of these I could see being used more than once a round, with each successful hit - like the Conditions that a Monk imposes on a hit. At no Ki cost.

    (2) Same problem as (1).

    (3) This is a good limit.
    Maybe a Feat (11th level requirement) that adds either Dex or Cha to that limit for higher levels?

    (4) Push/Toss, Drag/Move, Slide.

    (5) Foes can try to oppose? Objects have a weight limit?

    (6) Playtesting stage

    (7) Most likely; more than once.

    Knockback [Attack or Push][Complexity 3]:
    • Unlock: Str 16 or Athletics proficiency.
    • Requirement: The endeavor hits a target.
    • Effect: Make a Push endeavor against the same target at half your Complexity max.
    Perhaps a Str Save DC 8 + Proficiency + Str modifier. Target moved back half maximum speed?

    Sweeping [Attack or Push][Complexity 4]:
    • Unlock: Str 20, Large Size, or Athletics expertise.
    • Requirement: The endeavor hits a target.
    • Effect: The endeavor hits all targets in 3 continuous squares in reach.
    Expertise locks this into Rogue (or Bard, but only Swords and Valor might be able to do it).
    I'd suggest: Large Size or 20 Str plus 13 Dex and proficient in Athletics.

    Roll separately for each target; with Disadvantage after first target?

    Mighty Push [Attack or Push][Complexity 1]:
    • Unlock: Str 16, Athletics proficiency.
    • Requirement: The endeavor moves a target.
    • Effect: Take a -5 penalty on the endeavor. Double the movement.
    • This can be applied multiple times.
    Yes, Bonus Action to allow movement by user to keep pace with target.
    Opposed Str (Athletics) check with target pushed Double the difference in feet each time.

    Launch [Push][Complexity 2]:
    • Unlock: Str 18, Large Size, or Athletics proficiency.
    • Requirement: The endeavor moves a target.
    • Effect: Halve the distance the target moves. Instead it also is thrown upwards that high.
    • This can be applied multiple times.
    Requires Bonus Attack to initiate, must hit target, opposed Str (athletics) check?

    Up the Walls [Movement][Complexity 3]:
    • Unlock: Dex 18, 40ft Speed, or Acrobatics expertise.
    • Requirement: The movement is adjacent to a wall.
    • Effect: You run up the wall. You gain 5ft of altitude per 10ft you move.
    Requires Bonus Attack to initiate? Would still allow movement, and attacking foes on ceiling (if within range) as part of their Actions on their Turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    3e Birthright tried to do the "from start to finish" Domain Management, but very few people really got into it. I didn't really play Birthright, but I heard there was a lot of backstabbing and unfriendly PvP that happened. Like the worst of Game of Thrones and Intrigue based "The Americans" plus Gangbusters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    Some more Random thoughts:

    I just remembered some things that could also cut some Multiclassing Mages down from their perch.

    Again, going back to older Editions of D&D.
    It was specifically stated that Mages were not allowed to cast spells while wearing Armor (Also, taking away the spell failure percentages) and this limitation applied even when Multiclassing.

    Sure, it means the Soradin is less spiffy, but also means that the Fighter/Wizard (Diviner) isn't walking around in Adamantine Full Plate.

    I also don't let Regular shield and Shield spell bonuses stack. Kills that +10 to AC (even if only for that round at 17th level) that very few Class/Subclasses can match. This also makes Players think harder about their options.

    *****
    Next, spell slots don't stack, and only apply to their own class.

    Which kills the Coffeelock (Warlock spell slots cannot be converted into Sorcerer points), and stops the "never ending" Smite Palalock.

    It also prevents Multiclassing Mages to Upcast otherwise low power spells into more powerful slots. Shows a true benefit to dedicated casters.

    *****
    Now, you might be thinking:
    "But, that doesn't stop the Monk/Mage from being OP."

    But, I offer the following:
    Splitting those two classes means that the PC is most likely MAD, and the Player isn't getting the full benefits of either class, and anyone remaining focused on only one of those classes is going to be lots better at doing that class, then the Multiclassed PC.

    *****
    Yes, I know this is just reducing the vertical Power level of some Multiclassing Mages.

    I'm still working on increasing the horizontal for Martials.
    Mostly, I find that the various Summons (which are the most common) are basically the Caster adding a few Mooks into the combat. A warrior at anything over 5th level that is properly equipped can deal with even 8 wolves (giant wolf Spiders are a little harder, but only if they hit, and the warrior fails their Con save and is then attacking with Disadvantage) attacking them.

    And even being able to bring in a CR 10 Devil with Infernal Calling (costing the Mage their only 9th level slot) isn't much of a threat to most CR 17+ Challenges. Plus, said Devil is hostile to the Mage and allies; and the mage losing Concentration frees the Devil to do whatever it wants for three minutes….

    Clerics burning a 7th level slot for a CR 5 Celestial (Unicorn), is really pathetic, IMO.
    But, like stated above, even the CR 10 Deva wouldn't really make too much difference
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon
    'm not arguing that Mages don't have power, but I'm saying that having that power causes problems that make it difficult for them. Everyone with any kind of Status (money or political position) is going to bother the Mage/s for everything from "Solving a small problem" to making custom magical items (that burn Downtime). Even if the Mage manages to get an escape Mechanism in place, there are ways to counter that, or force them to use it while being pursued (putting a trap or Ambush at the "safe" location, if known)

    Being Famous is a double sided blade (and affects all classes differently) or at least should be.

    Really, Casters other than Clerics try to avoid being too well known. It's why the Hermit Mage/Druid is a trope.


    Spoiler: Undeath Domain v2
    Show

    Undeath Domain (changes)

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    <snip>
    Balm of the Grave
    Beginning at 1st level when you select this domain whenever you cast a spell that grants additional or restores hit points of first level or higher you may choose to grant temporary hit points equal to 5 times the spell’s level to all undead within 10ft of the target.

    Channel Divinity: Command Undead
    As an Action you can command one or more Undead. You can command a number of undead within 30 ft whose combined CR does not exceed your level, those with the lowest CR are affected first. Undead with intelligence scores of 8 or less are controlled for 24 hours. Undead with intelligence scores of 12 or less are controlled for 1 hour. Undead with Intelligence scores of 13 or more are controlled for 1 minute and may retryl their save at the end of each turn.

    Channel Divinity
    Repel the Living
    All living creatures within 20 feet of the Cleric must make a Charisma Save or take the Cleric's level plus Charisma Modifier in Necrotic damage, with a successful save reduces this to half.

    All Rise
    Spoiler: animals
    Show
    Beginning at 6th level after selecting this domain, you can target the remains of nonhumanoid creatures with the Animate Dead spell. You can create Skeletal or Zombie versions of these creatures. The maximum CR of such creatures is your Cleric Level -4. Raising such a creature requires a Spell Slot equal to half its CR rounded down. The creature counts as a number of Skeletons or zombies equal to 2 times its CR.
    Use the entry for the creature in the Monster Manual with the following exceptions:
    —Creature Type Changes to Undead
    —they lose any Spellcasting or Psionics trait and gain immunity to poison and disease.
    —They are limited to melee and ranged attacks.
    —Skeletal creatures rise with 1/2 their normal hit point total and vulnerability to bludgeoning damage.
    —Zombified creature’s lose any Multiattack Action and their speeds are reduced by 10 feet but they gain the Undead Toughness trait.









    Plague of Undeath
    Beginning at 6th level, Undead you create have Turn Resistance and are tainted with a cursed state; Living Creatures hit by your undead, have their maximum HP reduced by the amount dealt. (these are regained with a long rest) Upon death, those affected rize as Undead for one minute. (each)
    Spoiler: plague
    Show
    When they hit a living creature with a bite or claw attack the target must succeed on a Con save vs your Spell DC or become poisoned. While poisoned, The target’s maximum hit points are reduced by 5 at the end of each long rest, a creature that dies in this way rises as a zombie or skeleton after the next sunset. These undead also carry the cursed plague.


    Lifedrain
    At 8th Level and beyond, once on each of your turns, when an Undead creature under your control hits with a melee attack you can choose to have it deal an additional 1d8 necrotic damage. At 14th level this improves to 2d8.

    No Life King
    Beginning at 17th level the doors of death close to you and you become a Vampire Lord or Mummy Lord, you gain the special resistances, immunities, vulnerabilities, traits, and actions described in the MM using your Spell DC or appropriate bonuses to hit and damage. You do not gain any legendary actions or lair actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    These are the things that I do when I'm DM-ing to build trust with my players:

    Spoiler: Open Games
    Show
    (Remember that, unlike you, I run an open game at 2 FLGS, and get Random Players of every Exp/Skill Level. So far, I've managed to get good dedicated Players in both.
    But, I have lost some Players, too. A few due to RL getting in the way; as well as some that just went Ghost)

    1) I advertise online - and announce at the table - what Game, Edition, and Campaign World I'm using and the fact that it is Homebrewed. (D&D, 5e with changes to some Classes, and modified Faerun)
    (I'm going to return to typing the list of all the changes, and my reasons for why; and start printing that as a handout for Players)

    2) The Style my game is based on.
    (Heroic, and OSR playstyle in a player-driven Sandbox Living World)

    "If you're PC does nothing, then nothing exciting/interesting happens to them."

    "The World is in constant motion, and Time doesn't stop. What the PCs do can change the Fate of the World."

    3) Announcement that PvP isn't welcomed.
    My limits for non-good PCs in my Games.
    CN isn't allowed, due to abuse.
    TN isn't allowed, being The Unmotivated NPC.

    Evil PCs discouraged, but not banned by me.
    (The All Evil Party still needs to be Team-oriented, since I'm not interested in running D&D Solo games. If I'm doing mostly Solo gaming with occasional team-ups, I'd rather just run Shadowrun or a heavily modified World of Darkness - mostly to allow more "Types": Werewolves, Vampires, Mage/Mummy, and Hunters. I don't allow Changeling, Wraith, or Demon PCs)

    3a) PCs need strong self motivations.
    Don't rely on me (or other Players) to involve your Character in whatever is going on In Game. (Not to be confused with cooperative inter-player Stories (past, present, future) and Plot creation and/or World Building with me, using the PC's Background and Backstory.)

    4) I don't use a Screen. All rolls are Open, and I don't Fudge Die Rolls to "make a better story". Players do have access to things to help their PCs: From Inspiration/Luck to helpful DmPCs.

    After a few attacks, I'll announce the Monster's AC.

    I'll do my best to telegraph any Homebrewed changes to a Monster. Descriptions of better armor/thicker hide for AC. Place more than one NPC that has seen the Monster use an unusual ability or power. With all other NPCs pointing those inquiring PCs to those in the know.

    Various Knowledge Checks to know things IC about a Monster. I make it fairly easy: DC 10 + CR.

    Arcana for Elementals and magical creatures. From Firenewts to Dragons.

    Nature for Humanoids, Giants, Beasts, Monstrosities, and Aberrations.

    Religion for Undead and Dimensional Beings: Celestials, Fiends, etc.
    (both Arcana and Religion know about the Astral to Outer Planes, Ethereal to Elemental Planes, the Realms in the Shadow Plane, and the Feywild)

    History to know a Race's culture and relations with other Races. As well as knowing about historic events and "Legendary" Items.

    Investigation can get what a failed Knowledge check misses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Give the party an item that allows a Long Rest even while in the Wilderness or Dungeon.

    In 3x - I created a Figurine that cast Leomund's Tiny Hut once a day.
    It could hold up to ten people, up to Large Size.

    For 5e, this would most likely be a Rare item, with Leomund's Secure Shelter being Very Rare, and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion being Legendary.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-09-07 at 11:36 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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