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Thread: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
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2007-10-08, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
I have made some fixes for fighter-types and nerfs for casters. I hope you enjoy:
Buffs:
Weapon Finesse also works for damage with light weapons.
Dex is applied to arrow damage, not strength.
Monks get full BAB
Half of BAB applied to damage.
Up 1 HD for all fighters (Pally's 12, Barbs 20, so on so forth)
Nerfs:
Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.
Remove armor profeciency for Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Beguillers. Duskblades reduce armor maximum to medium.
Mage types except Duskblades and Sorcerers get knocked down by 1 HD.
Remove Wildshape
Simple weapon proficiency for all except wizards.
Are these good fixes, or overpowered?
(These only apply to the classes in the PHB or PHB 2. If there is another Mage/Fighter type such as Duskblade then I will add it too the list)Last edited by OOTS_Rules.; 2007-10-08 at 11:25 AM.
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2007-10-08, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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http://s9.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=97391
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2007-10-08, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Wait, did I say domains. Drat. I meant schools. This is to prevent Cloudkill Cheese the best I can.
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78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2007-10-08, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Not bad, but they fail to address the core problems of why the fighter and monk are such awful classes (except possibly as dips).
Nerfs:Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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2007-10-08, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Are you applying both or one? cos if it's both, you are really unbalancing it. Me, I think the system is prety much fine as is. Fighters are not as powerfull as wizards, but they are far more persistant. Still, in a single combat style of thing, applying one should be enough for what you have in mind.
Any perticular reason for this? Did you have somthing in mind, or is it off the cuff?
Oh, and why do the wizards have less spells availible than the Sorcerer?
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2007-10-08, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-08, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Your making sorcerers completely more powerful than wizards.
Your taking away wizards plus over sorcerers, larger selection and then weakening it and giving sorcerers more.
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2007-10-08, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
A bit hard to figure out, to be honest.
We seem to get a lot of these 'Nerfing Casters' threads, and they nearly always seem to me to be based on other threads, rather than from actual play experience. E.g. people read this board, see lots of people saying 'Wizards own!' and immediately set to houseruling instead of stopping and checking to see if it's a problem in their own game or not.
For example - what you just said about 'Cloudkill cheese'. I've played more D&D sessions than I can count and I've never seen a wizard use Cloudkill yet. Not because it sucks or anything, but because it's situational. But somehow or other the idea's spread on these boards that Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill is THE ULTIMATE COMBO!!! (For the record: it's not. In fact, it sucks. Timestop/Forcecage/Cloudkill is one of the LEAST efficient spell combos you could possibly use at level 20, for half a dozen reasons I won't go into here. Anyone who actually tries to use it in a game will discover them quick enough.)
In short: Are casters causing a problem in your game? If they are, houserule to fix that SPECIFIC problem. Not a problem that some guy off the Internet who lives in another country says is a problem for some other games that he doesn't play in but is still willing to make blanket statements about. If it's not an issue right now, don't worry about making houserules until it is.
- SaphLast edited by Saph; 2007-10-08 at 11:48 AM.
I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2007-10-08, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Kurald: No, wizards get 1d3. Also, I feel it stops CoDzilla by removing tanking potential. Mabye lowering their Spells per Day might help. . .
Moral Wiz: This is just an experimental fix I am making. Also, Sorcs get more schools because they learn less spells.
Saph: You make good points. This is just an emergancy fix in case of Muchkins. However, I think the fighter fixes will be kept in mind, though.Last edited by OOTS_Rules.; 2007-10-08 at 11:47 AM.
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Avvie by Ichneumon, siggy by Hive Mind
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2007-10-08, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Okay, well looking at your melee changes:
Too much. This overpowers high-dex characters (Dex is a good enough stat already without adding it to damage).
Arrows don't get Str damage unless you have a mighty composite bow. This slightly increases the effectiveness of archer characters, allowing them to dump Str (but remember above point about Dex already being slightly too good a stat).
Good fix.
Moderately increases attack power for monsters; moderately increases attack and defence power for melee PCs and NPCs; overpowers barbarians. D20 HD? Way too much.
You're mucking around with the game mechanics big-time for this one, and I don't have enough playtesting experience to guess what the consequences'll be. Not sure here.
Note that none of these changes do much to help fighters - the classes they boost the most are rogues, rangers, monks, and barbarians.
- SaphLast edited by Saph; 2007-10-08 at 11:59 AM.
I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2007-10-08, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2007-10-08, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
OK, some fixes to my fixes:
d12 HD is not increased
Possibly remove fighters in favor of Pallys and Barbs.+ forever!
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Avvie by Ichneumon, siggy by Hive Mind
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
(I stated my first in a dungeon)
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2007-10-08, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
What's the goal here? I thought you were trying to give warriors a chance vs. casters. But these changes just seem to try to give archers/swashbucklers equal power to Greatsword Power Attackers. (And it won't quite work, either; Power Attack scales better than a Dex mod. Besides, don't Sword & Board fighters need the help more than archers do?)
Warriors' biggest weakness is their lack of mobility. Archers get around that problem. So I guess you've helped non-casters be stronger against casters here, by saying "all of you non-casters should be archers." Which isn't the kind of fix I'd like to use, personally.
... Also, this could get cheesy if splatbooks are allowed and characters (e.g. Champions of Corellon) can find ways to add their Dex to damage twice.
Monks get full BAB
... and they are now indisputably more "monastic warrior" types than "monastic wise men" types, which I personally find distasteful. But it depends on the campaign setting.
Half of BAB applied to damage.
Up 1 HD for all fighters (Pally's 12, Barbs 20, so on so forth)
Wizards only get 2 domains, Sorcerers get three.
On the other hand, if you nerf these classes this way and not other caster classes, you'll just start seeing some very effective Batman Clerics. Oooh, scary thought.
Overall I don't think artificial
Remove armor profeciency for Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Beguillers.
Duskblades reduce armor maximum to medium.
Mage types except Duskblades and Sorcerers get knocked down by 1 HD.
Remove Wildshape
Simple weapon proficiency for all except wizards.
EDIT: One more thought: Cleric-archers. Batman Clerics who also take advantage of your archer boosts. Eeeek.Last edited by Draz74; 2007-10-08 at 12:15 PM.
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2007-10-08, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
The point is that as it is currently Sorcs have more spells per day and Wizards are able to choose from a host of options and be more versatile. There is no point in being able to learn 400 spells from 2 schools. Learning 5 spells from 3 schools is much better. You have made the Sorc more durable, more versatile at the moment, more versatile in general, and more powerful then the Wizard. Wizards know all spells. That's the point of Wizards, to have options but be forced to choose ahead of time. If you limit them to two schools you might as well just declare that the class no longer exists.
Also, reducing their HD does nothing since they already are very short on HP and rely mostly on Con. The problem is not that they survive getting hit, it is that they never get hit after a certain level.
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2007-10-08, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-08, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Wildshape is the reason druids are so powerful.
Also, I am not using these mage fixes unless my games get invaded by munchkins. Here are my current fixes.
Full BAB Monks
Extra HP rank for all fighters except d12 HD ones. (Monks need their HP)
Half BAB applied to damage.
I personally don't see monks as grapplers. Being a Black Belt in Tae-Kwon-Do myself, I more often see quick and precise strikes than grapples and disarming.+ forever!
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Avvie by Ichneumon, siggy by Hive Mind
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
(I stated my first in a dungeon)
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2007-10-08, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
There are other martial arts out there which involve grappling.
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2007-10-08, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Mabye we could give Monks a fighting style thing similar to Rangers. Their could be grappling monks, which sacrifice staying power for disarming and grappling and unarmed monks that act like the normal ones.
Last edited by OOTS_Rules.; 2007-10-08 at 01:13 PM.
+ forever!
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Avvie by Ichneumon, siggy by Hive Mind
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
(I stated my first in a dungeon)
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2007-10-08, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2007-10-08, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
Well, this changes might be the biggest bag of bologna I've ever heard of.
First off, the nerf and buffs to hit die fix nothing. A Wiz will still overland flight you and attack you with Will save spells.
Second, the pathetic hit die for wizards is a sorry idea. It basically means that ANY hazard will kill them. Strong winds? One wiz down.
Removing fighters is another terrible idea. ToB classes are there as optional, actually working classes, but if I wanted to play a Fighter with Weapon supremacy, I SHOULD be able to do so.
And lastly, for fixing Wildshape, stop taking shots in the dark. Most likely, PHBII has an excellent fix.
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2007-10-08, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighter Fixes, Caster Nerfs.
+ forever!
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Avvie by Ichneumon, siggy by Hive Mind
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
(I stated my first in a dungeon)