Best Space Opera RPG System?

[Rhedyn]

Is Star Wars without the Jedi "space opera"?

When has Star Wars ever been space opera?

[daryen]

Soooooooooooo...... Super Heroes in Space, as opposed to Space Opera.

Eh, if you say so.

Is Star Wars without the Jedi "space opera"?

In my opinion, yes. Because you still have "powers". They are just in the form of blasters, space armor, laser swords, laser staffs, reaction less thrusters, FTL travel, and the rest. It's still all super-science.

And, I guess you could say that Star Wars is really Space Fantasy, as you can tell the same story without space or science. But, it still serves as an example of my point.

[Mando Knight]

In my opinion, yes. Because you still have "powers". They are just in the form of blasters, space armor, laser swords, laser staffs, reaction less thrusters, FTL travel, and the rest. It's still all super-science.

And, I guess you could say that Star Wars is really Space Fantasy, as you can tell the same story without space or science. But, it still serves as an example of my point.

That's pretty overly reductionist, in my opinion. "Tech that we don't have today = super powers = superheroes" is a huge leap, particularly when trying to fit a specific game system to a given game. M&M 3e, for example, is not well-suited as an RPG system for most space opera franchises: its point-buy system is weighted around making Superman or the Flash, not the Millennium Falcon or Battlestar Galactica; and the likes of Han Solo and Starbuck would have a character sheet largely comprised of a sidearm and a set of stats and skills (for which M&M 3e is not any better at all than any other d20 system).

[Mutazoia]

That's pretty overly reductionist, in my opinion. "Tech that we don't have today = super powers = superheroes" is a huge leap, particularly when trying to fit a specific game system to a given game. M&M 3e, for example, is not well-suited as an RPG system for most space opera franchises: its point-buy system is weighted around making Superman or the Flash, not the Millennium Falcon or Battlestar Galactica; and the likes of Han Solo and Starbuck would have a character sheet largely comprised of a sidearm and a set of stats and skills (for which M&M 3e is not any better at all than any other d20 system).

I guess some people are just so in love with a particular system, that they can't see it's limitations and try to shoehorn it into everything. They find it hard to understand that, no, your chosen one isn't actually good at [other genera]. Kind of like the people who recommend FATE for everything. I expect, one of these days, to see several FATE recommendations when some one says they want to play Checkers.

I can kind of understand...maybe their chosen one is the only system they know, and they are afraid to try to learn something new? Maybe they have trouble learning a new system unless some one explains it to them and makes them play it for a while? Not having experience with other game systems can lead one to become over-dependent on what they do know.

[iTreeby]

Nobody mentioned Scum and Villainy yet? Well then. Check out Scum and Villainy - it's really, really good!
It's an adaptation of the Blades in the Dark system, geared to tell the story of a rag tag of adventures and scoundrel, but in space! It covers politics, exploration, an (optional) Not-The-Force mystic ability, and can be used to run different vibes of games - main inspirations being star wars (obviously), cowboy bebop, firefly, that netflix show about space bounty hunters...all the usual suspects.

The ship is actually sort of an extra character in the party, and can really be the common thread between different campaigns and adventuring troupes - think of the Millenium Falcon. (If you are familiar with blades in the dark, the ship takes the place of the hideout / your criminal organisation).

The game expects an improvising / reactive GMing style more like Torchbearer/Mouseguard or any Powered by the Apocalypse game rather than the classic d&d "GM prepares an adventure" style, but it's actually not an hard requirement.

Also +1 for Stars without number - even if you don't end up using the system, the GMing tools in the "running a sandbox" chapter are fantastic.

It really is a fantastic system, but it honestly could use another round of edits. It's intuitive enough that you can make house rules to cover the gaps though. It's not a bad idea to have a rulebook for blades in the dark just to have rules for cohorts and some ideas for how urbot as characters could work (hulls basically).

I really wish the game got more love, it's really charming and easy to use.

[Cluedrew]

“In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.”

I would like to use this in "Quotes you can build a character of off".

Personally I see Space Opera as a drama in space. Which is to say it is primarily about social things, with space being the back-drop. I might be the odd one out with this definition.

[daryen]

That's pretty overly reductionist, in my opinion. "Tech that we don't have today = super powers = superheroes" is a huge leap, particularly when trying to fit a specific game system to a given game. M&M 3e, ...

I make a distinction between science we don't understand today and super-science. Science extrapolated from what we have today is a completely different discussion. I specifically stated super-science as being a base assumption. In the case of super-science, yes, it is just powers. A "blaster" is just a power, whether it is shot from Booster Gold's glove or from Han's gun.

Also, I don't know M&M. I personally played Champions 3e. But the general point is the same.

EDIT: I also want to stress that I am only saying that a superhero system is not necessarily inappropriate. I am in no way saying it is the best option. I am saying it is a legitimate option. I am not saying it is the best or even recommended option. Just to be clear.

[Mutazoia]

I would like to use this in "Quotes you can build a character of off".

Go ahead. I'm sure Douglas Adams would approve.

[Knaight]

Soooooooooooo...... Super Heroes in Space, as opposed to Space Opera.

They're two genres that blur together pretty heavily at the edges - not least because there are pulp underpinnings to both, with the highly and broadly competent pulp hero showing up in both space opera and superhero incarnations, with superheroes in space pulling from both of those traditions. Rocket Raccoon, nominal superhero character, would not be out of place in Schlock Mercenary, space opera work. The various genius omnidisciplinary scientists in early space opera especially (e.g. Flash Gordon) are spitting distance from tech based superheroes/villains. Hell, to pick a common archetype - a literal super soldier, modified by a military and given special high tech gear. Am I talking about Master Chief? Captain America? The standard Colonial Union trooper soldier in Old Man's War?

I'm all for being cautious with genre swapping games. The various attempts to make D&D work for sci-fi always earn some side eye, and the idea of using M&M for something like gothic horror is just hilarious*. Genres that blur into each other though? At least near the margins, I'm all for swapping stuff over. Were I to run something like Guardians of The Galaxy I'd be looking at space opera systems way before superhero systems**. Something akin to a Jedi heavy Star Wars game? Superheroes seem like a closer fit, especially if the space opera systems you're looking at are more Traveller than Bulldogs.

Then there's the matter of how more specific games tend to convey not just genre, but also tone. Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis are both space opera, but their tones are very different. BG is pretty bleak and desperate, tensions run high, characters get worn down, resources are sharply limited and decreasing, etc. SA leans towards a lot of freewheeeling heroism, the protagonists are on the upswing, and it's just generally more optimistic. Sure, I could just use Traveller for both, and from a setting perspective it can handle both. For the former though I might well be better off looking a bit further afield, for something that handles the tone well - where I find Nemesis, an action-horror game that actually works really well. That's pretty much the opposite of superheroes, but a similar situation can apply there.

*I'm assuming gothic horror where the characters are more ordinary humans than anything, the description "superheroes with fangs" gets used as a dismissive term for a reason for more than a few systems that claim to be supernatural horror then load you down with werewolf powers or some nonsense.

**Or just use any of several bonafide generics, or maybe fall back to a pulp system.

[Max_Killjoy]

When has Star Wars ever been space opera?

It's routinely listed as an example of space opera fiction, and described as "space opera".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars

[Grod_The_Giant]

When has Star Wars ever been space opera?

Always? If you ask ten people what "space opera" means, I'm pretty sure at least seven of them will say "Star Wars."

[Faily]

Always? If you ask ten people what "space opera" means, I'm pretty sure at least seven of them will say "Star Wars."

Pretty much.


Many of the reasons why Star Wars often falls into "Space Opera" rather than "Sci-Fi" is because Star Wars is very light on the Sci-Fi aspects even if it is a futuristic setting. The strongest aspects of Star Wars is the cliched storytelling, the "no coincidences", particularly the melodrama and larger than life characters.

The Wikipedia-paged linked above summarizes Star Wars perfectly: "space warfare, melodramatic adventure, interplanetary battles, chivalric romance, and risk-taking."

Even without Jedi, Sith, and other Force users, you can tell Space Opera stories in Star Wars.

[Corsair14]

D6 Star Wars from WEG is what I would use to run a game. Its rules light and extremely scalable and easy to run on the fly. Plus it is classless making it automatically superior to class based systems which is what the multitudes of playing in SW requires.

Star Wars IS the stereotypical space opera. This is established fact for most people. Galaxy spanning, sci-fi, science light, light vs dark drama.

[The Library DM]

Star Wars IS the stereotypical space opera. This is established fact for most people. Galaxy spanning, sci-fi, science light, light vs dark drama.

Space Opera is a sub-genre of Science Fiction (which is sub-genre of the no-longer-used Speculative Fiction). It involves large events on an epic scale (though not necessarily galaxy-spanning), typically involving space travel and space warfare and/or futuristic ground combat (but not necessarily any of these), with considerable dramatic and melodramatic elements as part of the plot. But in fact, Space Opera is not necessarily “science light.” The science isn’t the determining factor— the scope is.

For example, The Expanse (TV and novel series) is “space opera,” for its scope and broad, sweeping drama. Note, however, that it is also “hard” science fiction, down to elements like spin-gravity, etc..

Niven’s The Integral Trees novel is also Space Opera, though it involves no actual space travel, and only covers the scope of a portion of the human societies living in the atmosphere of a gas giant (seriously). The tech is primitive, with a certain “Gamma World” element of discovery of “ancient” technology belonging to the long-forgotten interstellar colonists. It too is “hard SF.” But it’s also Space Opera, because the “reach” and feel of the story is an epic journey, and the fact that space travel has set the whole thing up is essential to the story and plot.

So too are both versions of Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, H. Beam Piper’s Space Viking (which if you haven’t read, you need to— it’s the inspiration for theTraveller ‘verse) (heck— Firefly is Space Opera in its grand arc), Star Trek, Dune, Starship Troopers, and the grandfather of it all, “Doc” E.E. Smith’s Lensman novels. These all vary in their science from light to heavy, but all are Space Operas.

So what’s not Space Opera? Well, tighter science fiction tales of limited scope, usually where space travel is not an essential element or necessary to the plot. Time travel stories are typically not Space Opera (though they can be). Blade Runner is not Space Opera (though it’s stated that space travel does occur— it’s just unimportant to the plot and story). Arrival is not Space Opera (even though the aliens obviously use space travel), but Interstellar is. “Space” is a key word, obviously!

So while, yes, Star Wars is within the Space Opera genre, it’s not the archetype. It’s just one of many possible examples in a fairly broad genre.

[Max_Killjoy]

As a side note, the term "Speculative Fiction" is still in use.

[Mutazoia]

As a side note, the term "Speculative Fiction" is still in use.

Outside of this thread, the last time I heard that term, was on a re-run of Phineas and Ferb.

[The Library DM]

As a side note, the term "Speculative Fiction" is still in use.

Really? I haven’t encountered it in years, and even then usually in some retrospective of classic works. Glad to hear some are keeping it alive.

[Knaight]

For example, The Expanse (TV and novel series) is “space opera,” for its scope and broad, sweeping drama. Note, however, that it is also “hard” science fiction, down to elements like spin-gravity, etc.

It uses an aesthetic influenced a little more by NASA and a little less by WWI dogfights than Starwars, but it's really not that much harder. The protomolecule is the really obvious example of an overt fantasy element, but even if you discard that you still have the magic fusion drives which can hold multiple Gs for a good long time due to a small change from a more grounded drive, consistently ridiculous heat management, etc.

Meanwhile as a space opera the tropes are there. A small cast of characters that keep bouncing off each other, size of the universe be damned? Check. Main characters that cleanly fit just about every space opera heroic archetype, including an elite crew? Check. Magical or magic like weirdness permeating the setting, intensifying throughout the narrative? Check.

This same pattern tends to hold across a lot of space opera. Star Wars has less science in it than most, but between it counting for far more than most if you weight the entries by influence or any influence proxy and the ubiquity of works with even less science (Valerian and Laureline ran for decades in France before being adapted as a movie, to pick just one example) it's not a bad pick as an archetypal space opera story to try and get across what the genre is.

[The Library DM]

Yeah, it’s not a bad example.

But Dune* is better.





*The novel, not that dreadful movie.

[Knaight]

I'd take Star Wars over Dune, but both of them are pillars of the genre which have had a huge amount of influence in the decades after publication.

[Rakaydos]

Niven’s The Integral Trees novel is also Space Opera, though it involves no actual space travel, and only covers the scope of a portion of the human societies living in the atmosphere of a gas giant (seriously). The tech is primitive, with a certain “Gamma World” element of discovery of “ancient” technology belonging to the long-forgotten interstellar colonists. It too is “hard SF.” But it’s also Space Opera, because the “reach” and feel of the story is an epic journey, and the fact that space travel has set the whole thing up is essential to the story and plot..

Former gas giant. It got too close to a neutron star and became a gas ring dense enough to be considered an atmosphere, in space.

[Mutazoia]

Niven’s The Integral Trees novel is also Space Opera, though it involves no actual space travel, and only covers the scope of a portion of the human societies living in the atmosphere of a gas giant (seriously). The tech is primitive, with a certain “Gamma World” element of discovery of “ancient” technology belonging to the long-forgotten interstellar colonists. It too is “hard SF.” But it’s also Space Opera, because the “reach” and feel of the story is an epic journey, and the fact that space travel has set the whole thing up is essential to the story and plot.

If you're going to go that route, Anne McCaffery's "Pern" novels are space opera, as everybody in the books are all descended from interstellar colonists (they even "re-discover" lost tech towards the end there).

[Mechalich]

If you're going to go that route, Anne McCaffery's "Pern" novels are space opera, as everybody in the books are all descended from interstellar colonists (they even "re-discover" lost tech towards the end there).

Pern typifies the 'Planetary Romance' subgenre. Traditional romantic storylines with adventurous elements are what occur, they just happen to occur on an alien planet with unique conditions. This overlaps with the 'Sword and Planet' subgenre which is more focused on pulpy adventures and less on interpersonal relationships, as in John Carter of Mars. 'Space Opera' by contrast, refers to stories that are primarily melodrama and usually epics, set in space.

Sci-fi hardness is not inherently connected to storytelling mode. You can technically tell any kind of story at any level of hardness. Now, it turns out that telling a melodramatic epic IN SPACE! is extremely difficult to do while at the same time respecting science, but that limitation comes from the science side.

Really? I haven’t encountered it in years, and even then usually in some retrospective of classic works. Glad to hear some are keeping it alive.

Wikipedia has a Speculative Fiction Portal. The term is in quite common use.

[Max_Killjoy]

Plus "hard" science fiction isn't a binary yes-no, even hard SF leaves room for conceits... it's as much about consistency and not warping the established "tech" to suit the immediate needs of plot, as it is about following current science slavishly.

For example, hard SF can have FTL, as long as the FTL is treated consistently and objectively, and doesn't work "at the speed of plot".

Both Star Wars and Star Trek have FTL that works at the "speed of plot".

[hamishspence]

FTL as the "One Small Fib" tends to at least drop it from 5 to 4.5 on the scale:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ictionHardness

[Max_Killjoy]

FTL as the "One Small Fib" tends to at least drop it from 5 to 4.5 on the scale:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ictionHardness

Doesn't bother me at all when it comes to "hardness".

But then I take a rather skeptical view of the assertions that FTL is "inherently impossible" and "always time travel", that beating the light from an event to somewhere is an automatic causality violation, and that information is somehow special and indestructible.

[Mechalich]

Doesn't bother me at all when it comes to "hardness".

But then I take a rather skeptical view of the assertions that FTL is "inherently impossible" and "always time travel", that beating the light from an event to somewhere is an automatic causality violation, and that information is somehow special and indestructible.

FTL is inherently time travel - this is simply an aspect of how our universe works because we have spacetime and not separate space and time. It is possible to have your time travel structured in such a way that it doesn't violate causality, but it's quite tricky to set up. The standard space operate paradigm where ships zip around a galaxy-sized space in all directions at many times the speed of light while pretending there's a single stable galaxy-wide 'time' measure is a thunderous casualty violation charging through the plot.

In any case it usually takes several significant forms of science-twisting to get to a traditional space opera zone (you can have non-traditional space opera even without FTL, as in Knights of Sidonia, but that mostly just means you have alternative phlebotinum, like immortality), not just FTL. For instance you usually have to mess with the economics of space travel and of likely futuristic civilizations in order to come up with reasonable reasons for war in the first place and you also need to limit computer technology so as to avoid the stories of drone-y the Murderbot (something even Star Wars felt necessary to do). A good example of a fairly 'hard' sf space opera is Walter John William's Dread Empire's Fall series. That series also very clearly displays the structural manipulations he needed to put into place in order to make his world-building work.

[Max_Killjoy]

FTL is inherently time travel - this is simply an aspect of how our universe works because we have spacetime and not separate space and time. It is possible to have your time travel structured in such a way that it doesn't violate causality, but it's quite tricky to set up. The standard space operate paradigm where ships zip around a galaxy-sized space in all directions at many times the speed of light while pretending there's a single stable galaxy-wide 'time' measure is a thunderous casualty violation charging through the plot.

For FTL, just add "hyperspace" or some other form of "not in our reality" FTL. Time is still passing everywhere in our "universe" so you can't turn around and arrive at your origin point before you left, and you're not breaking relativity because you're not traveling faster than light as such. The only way it becomes "inherently time travel" or "inherently causality breaking" is if someone insists that the light from an event reaching a distant location is somehow special or privileged, and that you arriving with the information before the light gets there is "bad" but light arriving with the information before you get there is "good".

[pming]

Hiya!

EDIT: >:( Apparently I can't post links yet...so...I'll just mention the company/place but you have to do the leg work. Sorry!

Hmmm. Here's my top 4+1 for Space Opera type SciFi:

1. Star Frontiers: Ticks all the boxes EXCEPT for having 'anti-gravity' and 'FTL'. But that is easily overcome by just saying "There is anti-gravity and FTL". Problem solved. Yes. That easy. :) It is also based on a d100 system, which, for me, is perfect for scifi games (just "feels right" to me for some reason...). Ships can be customized pretty easily, but also in a lot of ways...and there is almost a 'level up' feeling to it because you can start off with a smaller Hull Size ship, then work your way up the chain to bigger, better and faster ships. (Availability: Yes, via DriveThruRPG; PDF and PoD...which are very nice quality!).
   
2. Alternity: The old version...by TSR, obviously. The newer version...er...not so much. Hit up Nobleknights.com to see if any of the three 'core' books are around (Players, Gamemasters, and optionally the Stardrive setting...which is pretty cool, btw). You have to find the Warships supplement (fan made I think?...but excellent!) to really be able to do a lot of ship customizing. But the system is pretty fast and fun. (Availability: No, only via finding an old copy for sale somewhere).
   
3. Shatterzone / MasterBook: A nice system that is fairly unique in how it plays. It also uses a "Drama Deck" (and you can optionally include the "Plots Deck"...which I HIGHLY recommend!) for helping the flow of the game. The deck determines what 'side' goes first; the Players,or the NPC's. It also gives potential modifiers, and it gives 'suggested skills' for use in the round/scene that can yeild more XP, AND it gives a unique method for skill resolution during a tense scene (like combat). To long to explain here, but check out Shatterzone at "Precis Intermedia Games" (search for pigames and Shatterzone) , and poke around for how it works. It's pretty amazing, really. I even use the Decks for my Star Frontiers game and it worked almost seamlessly. (Availability: Yes, both PDF and PoD, at the site listed above; PoD is VERY good quality!..even has a Hardback option).
   
4. Star Hero: FULL DISCLOSURE! I have not ever actually played this system. I have almost all of it...and there is a LOT of it! That said, having read and twiddled around with it, if you don't mind doing a fair amount of GM'ing leg-work pre-game to get it all laid out (kinda like what you have to do with GURPS), it pretty much opens all the flood gates and then turns up the turbine to 11. You want a starship based on biological components? Not a problem. Want an actual Mellenium Falcon? Piece of cake. You want the Enterprise? Yup, got cha covered. What's that? You want to add in Technomages from the old Babylon 5 TV series? Pfft...no sweat. Flying space-cows with psychic powers that can shape change? Yup. It can do that. Seriously. There is virtually NOTHING that this system can't handle. The system itself? Easy enough; Roll 3d6, get under a number. Done. It's just so G-D intimidating to start with! O_O Still...it's on my "must play before I die" list. (Availability: Yes, PDF and PoD and even has digital support for creating PC's...which can REALLY save time and hair-pulling, once you kinda know what you're doing. Find it all at the main Hero Games site (search Hero Games RPG system) PS: This system has been around since 1981 and is STILL going...just fyi).
   

BONUS SYSTEM!: ;) Ok, I figured I'd mention this as well. The SilCORE system from DreamPod 9 ( just type in dp9 dot com). It is really quite flexible as a system and can handle virtually any style of game, or any genre. It is the 'core' system that DP9 uses for their games (the RPG-oriented ones at least, not sure about their Heavy Gear minis game). An out-of-print game they had that used the Silhouette system (as it was/is called) that was pure Space Opera was called "CORE Command". You can get a PDF of it off of Drivethru, but the quality isn't great; usable, but not great. There is also Jovian Chronicles, which is 'anime in space', overall, but isn't quite Space Opera in that it is only set in/around the Earth solar system...and not even the whole thing. But with the SilCORE rule book, the CORE Command PDF and all the other games that DP9 has out there, it would be trivial to 'fix' that. (Availability: Yes, for SilCORE rule book...both PDF and PoD, which is very good quality. Many/most/all? Of their other stuff is available in either or both of those formats if you look around).

[DeTess]

I own SilCORE, and have played it a bit (specifically the Jovian chronicles setting). I think it works best if you're playing a more gritty/detail oriented game, so something closer to the expanse or firefly than Star Wars, as it goes really in depth on things like vehicle systems and has quite detailed damage states and stuff (generally a vehicle is one or more boxes of systems, and damage generally results in you losing systems, or if it's big guns shooting at you, entire boxes of systems),a s well as space-movement (like, your momentum actually matters).

I'd also like to note that Jovian Chronicles, despite being intended as a system to have gundam-like adventures is actually a pretty hard sci-fi setting, with fairly realistic tech across the board if we ignore the whole 'giant robots are a good weapon of war' thing. Though I suppose that is true for the better Gundam series as well.