Why the hate on the Psion class?

[Matinta]

I hear a lot of hate on Psions.

people say they don't fit the setting, too similar to arcane casters and they are weird.

1- I think they totally fit the setting. these people need to grab an old Sword and sorcery book and take a good read on the classics. There are plenty of Psions there.

2- Are you kidding me? When I picture a Psion I picture a shirtless muscular humanoid with glowing tattoos and a shaved head. Lot's of floating crystals of power of different shapes.

When I picture a wizard I picture an old skinny wizened guy with a long beard, robes and a weird hat.

How are those two aesthetics ever capable of overlapping?

3- Being weird is the whole point of Psions.

Have you guys never heard of Weird fantasy? Look it up darling, it's totally a thing! (And not some kind of sexual kink) It mixes Sci-fi elements with fantasy elements.

So overall I really don't get what the deal is.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It's more of a sci-fi thing than a fantasy thing.

[HouseRules]

In the old days, it was called Science Fantasy.
Science Fiction was not a genre yet, but it evolved.
Gary Gygax was a SiFi fan.
Note that Gygax use SiFi, not SciFi!
Lots of Dragon Magazines in the early days have SiFi content, to emphasize Gygax's personal desire.

However, Gygax regret creating the Psionic Subsytem.
Why? is a very strong point.
The Psionic Subsystem in BD&D, AD&D, BX D&D, BECMI D&D, all derived from Gygax's OD&D.
The AD&D 2E Psionic Subystem was the first independent from Gygax's invention.

The term "Psionics" should be followed by "(sic)" in most works dealing with roleplaying game rules, for it is typically misused. (A good indicator of how well the authors have researched their work, and how little the publisher knows about it, too!). Psionics means "electronically enhanced psychic, or psychogenic, ability." It is as simple as that.

Seems like consulting a dictionary made Gygax regret his abuse of the word Psionic.

Note that without Gygax, Psionic would not become a major aspect of Science Fiction.
His abuse of the term Psionic allowed SciFi writers to drop their magic from Science Fantasy to switch over to Science Fiction.

[Matinta]

In the old days, it was called Science Fantasy.
Science Fiction was not a genre yet, but it evolved.
Gary Gygax was a SiFi fan.
Note that Gygax use SiFi, not SciFi!
Lots of Dragon Magazines in the early days have SiFi content, to emphasize Gygax's personal desire.

However, Gygax regret creating the Psionic Subsytem.
Why? is a very strong point.
The Psionic Subsystem in BD&D, AD&D, BX D&D, BECMI D&D, all derived from Gygax's OD&D.
The AD&D 2E Psionic Subystem was the first independent from Gygax's invention.



Seems like consulting a dictionary made Gygax regret his abuse of the word Psionic.

Note that without Gygax, Psionic would not become a major aspect of Science Fiction.
His abuse of the term Psionic allowed SciFi writers to drop their magic from Science Fantasy to switch over to Science Fiction.

That's BS.

People with non-magical mental powers apear everywhere in media even before Gygax.

In the old days of Planetary romance sci-fi and fantasy mixed together all the time, it's only because of Tolkien fan boys that we got such harsh distinctions now a days.

[GloatingSwine]

Partly it's giving them a unique mechanical identity in a system which already contains an enviable variety of kitchen sinks, magic-wise.

Early efforts in that direction were, shall we say, not elegant...

[Matinta]

Partly it's giving them a unique mechanical identity in a system which already contains an enviable variety of kitchen sinks, magic-wise.

Early efforts in that direction were, shall we say, not elegant...

Who cares about that?

If the DM has to learn 100 rules to play what difference does one more make?

[Honest Tiefling]

It's more of a sci-fi thing than a fantasy thing.

This is a huge part of it. And then you get really weird cases where magic is very well defined and interconnected except for Psionics which is really fricking weird especially when you have a god of all magic except psionics. So they don't just seem rather Sci-Fi with the pseudoscience names, they introduce some narrative troubles along the way. And that's not even counting the weird interactions between magic and psionics, so you have a bunch of rules to worry about.

Who cares about that?

If the DM has to learn 100 rules to play what difference does one more make?

I do! I'm not going to be the player who pisses off the DM, thank you very much. And if I was the DM, I have enough to handle and learning MORE rules isn't a great argument. I could as easily learn a rule where I can start setting character sheets on fire, what's the difference?

[Mastikator]

I take umbrage with psion being science fiction. Maybe space/future fantasy but there is nothing remotely scientific about psionics.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Space fantasy is still fantasy!

There are princess, wizards, warlords and magical swords.

Spoiler: Space fantasy is awesome!

Show

Heck Pathfinder setting qualify for Space fantasy if you think about it.

Spoiler: Pathfinder

Show

I fail to see the issue regarding them not belonging in the setting.

But I totally get the mechanical side of it, keeping track on the Psi points is annoying.

[Honest Tiefling]

Space fantasy is still fantasy!

It's still fantasy, but you can't just mix up fantasy worlds and get something usuable. It's a bit like putting epic high fantasy together with grimdark edgy fantasy, there's going to be tonal issues and it won't feel coherent. Especially if magic is already defined in the setting and psionics doesn't follow the same rules thematically. It's like ice cream, mint chocolate ice cream is still a valid flavor, but I don't think I'm going to mix it with peanut butter or black sesame ice cream any time soon.

Imagine how pissed people would have been if the Peter Jackson LOTR movies ended with some Valar returning from outer space to laser beam Mordor. Kinda not what people signed up for, and it does lessen the mythical and epic mood of the series if Space Elves can just press a button and deal with the issue.

Futhermore, if the DM has built a setting, they probably can't do the work to add in psionics seamlessly in a timely fashion. Oh, you want me to rewrite the rules of magic completely after I tried to make a living, breathing world? Sure, add to my workload. This won't turn into some sort of crazy fantasy kitchen sink at all, nope nope nope! And if the DM is using a premade setting, they probably don't want to make sweeping changes to it as they promised a certain thing to the other players.

And speaking of Pathfinder, weren't people really annoyed at Numeria and often just plain ignored it?

Space fantasy can be fun (see all of the posts excited for any hint of Spelljammer) but you can't just force it into every. Single. Game. Or. Setting.

[gkathellar]

Standard Fantasy is mostly surface-level tropes. If you call your wacky mental powers "magic," then people will accept them as part of the Standard Fantasy package. If you call them psychic powers, then a certain set of people will feel like they Just Don't Fit.

It's all in the names.

[GloatingSwine]

Who cares about that?

If the DM has to learn 100 rules to play what difference does one more make?

It's not usually 1 more rule though.

It's at the very least a separate spell list which is similar to all the others but these one you do by thinking about it really hard, with their own rules for which ones can be metamagiced-but-we-call-it-augment.

Plus a bunch of other special abilities and doodads to keep track of that are almost but not quite the same as a mage or a warlock.

[S@tanicoaldo]

My first contact with fantasy (Before going to classic fantasy books) was with He-man, She-Ra and Thundarr, cartoons where the setting was clearly a mix of Sci-fi and fantasy tropes with wizards and barbarians living in harmony with lazer guns and space ships so I see no issue, on the contrary this kind of setting hold a space place in my hearth.



Cartoons were really cool back in the day. Heck they still are. With the likes of Adventure time and Over the garden wall.

[Honest Tiefling]

My first contact with fantasy (Before going to classic fantasy books) was with He-man, She-Ra and Thundarr, cartoons where the setting was clearly a mix of Sci-fi and fantasy tropes with wizards and barbarians living in harmony with lazer guns and space ships so I see no issue, on the contrary this kind of setting hold a space place in my hearth.

But those settings were designed with that sort of motif in mind, it wasn't trying to jam He-Man into say, Gargoyles. Because that would probably be really weird. You could probably make it work, but if the rest of the party isn't on board and the DM really wanted to play Gargoyles why bother with the extra work?

And did you really appreciate the Live Action movie where they went to earth and the focus was on some random girl? See what harm a genre shift can do!?

[LibraryOgre]

I don't have a problem with psychic powers in D&D; while "magic" tends to not be a sci-fi things, psychic powers in sci-fi are often just the kind of magic you can get away with and vaguely justify in your sci-fi story (q.v. "Biotics" in Mass Effect, which rely on a chain of [tech] explanations that boil down to "Some people can throw things with their mind.")

For fantasy settings, you have to consider how you integrate your psychic powers into your setting. In Brust's Dragaera novels, psychic powers are separate from sorcery. Sorcery draws power from elemental Chaos, most often through the medium of the Imperial Orb, though some crazy people manipulate it directly. Psychic powers are innate mental abilities, which can be trained, and witchcraft is using rituals and resonances to enhance those psychic powers.

In Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar setting, "mind magic" is the prevalent form of magic. It is an innate ability, and usually cannot be learned, only have existing facility with it trained. The setting eschews the Greek-derived names common in discussion of psychic powers... you don't have Clairvoyance, you're a Farseer. You're not a Pyrokinetic, you're a Firestarter. You aren't telekinetic, you're a Fetcher (distinct from an n'wah ). You're not telepathic, you're a Mindspeaker.

In both cases, though, the metaphysics are built with psionics in mind; they're not an afterthought that you're trying to integrate into an existing system.

[Particle_Man]

I think part of the hate comes from psionics being unbalanced in first and second editions. But 3.5 psionics is imho more balanced than wizard magic. In fact you could ban wizards and sorcerers and have psions and be finer, balance-wise.

Another issue, as the op notes, is the aesthetics. Makes me want to refluff 3.5 psionics as faerie gem magic and be done with it.

[Mastikator]

Space fantasy is still fantasy!

There are princess, wizards, warlords and magical swords.

Spoiler: Space fantasy is awesome!

Show

Heck Pathfinder setting qualify for Space fantasy if you think about it.

Spoiler: Pathfinder

Show

I fail to see the issue regarding them not belonging in the setting.

But I totally get the mechanical side of it, keeping track on the Psi points is annoying.

But keeping track of psi points is way easier than spell slots, if anything it's an excuse to finally free yourself from that awful vancian magic system and just use spell points.

[S@tanicoaldo]

But those settings were designed with that sort of motif in mind, it wasn't trying to jam He-Man into say, Gargoyles. Because that would probably be really weird. You could probably make it work, but if the rest of the party isn't on board and the DM really wanted to play Gargoyles why bother with the extra work?

And did you really appreciate the Live Action movie where they went to earth and the focus was on some random girl? See what harm a genre shift can do!?

I have never seen the movie :/

But you misunderstood me, I'm not arguing that Psionics could or even should be added in EVERY single setting.

I'm arguing that the idea that psionics can't be added in ANY D&D setting is really weird and to me wrong.

Heck we have tons of alien stuff D&D why single out psionics so bad?

[zinycor]

Who cares about that?

If the DM has to learn 100 rules to play what difference does one more make?

I don't believe you are going to make any friends with that argument.

[Honest Tiefling]

But you misunderstood me, I'm not arguing that Psionics could or even should be added in EVERY single setting.

My mistake then. But yeah, I would have to agree with one of your other points: He-man could be an awesome basis for a setting with some judicious editing.

But yeah, just as some settings seem like they could have psionics added in easily, others just don't. It's a bit of a matter of personal taste which is one issue, and the never-ending argument of respecting a DM's vision with the setting while allowing enough player input. Different strokes for different folks.

I think part of the hate comes from psionics being unbalanced in first and second editions. But 3.5 psionics is imho more balanced than wizard magic. In fact you could ban wizards and sorcerers and have psions and be finer, balance-wise.

I've heard a lot of different opnions on if Psionics is balanced or not for third edition, but I do think trying to balance a system you aren't familiar with is tedious and often problematic. Even if it is better balanced, a lot of people just aren't familiar enough with it to want to tackle balancing it when they already have to deal with the multiheaded beast of vanican casting.

[S@tanicoaldo]

My mistake then. But yeah, I would have to agree with one of your other points: He-man could be an awesome basis for a setting with some judicious editing.

But yeah, just as some settings seem like they could have psionics added in easily, others just don't. It's a bit of a matter of personal taste which is one issue, and the never-ending argument of respecting a DM's vision with the setting while allowing enough player input. Different strokes for different folks.

Indeed.

But I'm under the impression that for some people Psionics have no place in fantasy like AT ALL and that they are exclusively a sci-fi thing.

And for that I object. I mean just look at Dark sun!

[Kami2awa]

Numerous reasons I can think of :

1) Psions in AD&D were broken AF. Furthermore they required learning a completely different and much more complicated system to deal with, and were rare if you used the random character generation rules. Older players might never have bothered with them.
2) Yep, science fantasy used to be a thing, but that's no longer most people's view of a "typical" fantasy world. So younger players won't include psychic powers in their world.
3) No core psychic classes in 3.5e. Psychic stuff is therefore tacked onto the game and not part of its central premise.

[Bohandas]

Note that without Gygax, Psionic would not become a major aspect of Science Fiction.
His abuse of the term Psionic allowed SciFi writers to drop their magic from Science Fantasy to switch over to Science Fiction.

Not really. It's still science fantasy whether they call it "magic" or "psionics" or "psychokinesis" or "the force"

EDIT:

On a related note The Doctor's sonic screwdriver is a magic wand

[Max_Killjoy]

Wait, did someone claim that Gygax made psionics part of science fiction, and someone else claim that the fantasy / science fiction distinctions are all the "fault of "Tolkien fanboys"?

I needed a good laugh tonight, thanks.

[Lord Raziere]

The lesson I'm getting from this is to say screw all distinction between anime, space fantasy and so on and just make the fantasy I want. and that the only thing holding anything back is making it look "right" to an outside observer. when anything looking "right" is an illusion.

[Max_Killjoy]

The lesson I'm getting from this is to say screw all distinction between anime, space fantasy and so on and just make the fantasy I want. and that the only thing holding anything back is making it look "right" to an outside observer. when anything looking "right" is an illusion.

I started reading that and was thinking "well, sure, if that's what you find fun and engaging, go for it", and then you got to that last part, and I want to ask why you'd crap on other people's fun as part of griping about them crapping on your fun.

[Lord Raziere]

I started reading that and was thinking "well, sure, if that's what you find fun and engaging, go for it", and then you got to that last part, and I want to ask why you'd crap on other people's fun as part of griping about them crapping on your fun.

I apologize, thats not what I meant.

its all arbitrary, and if I want to appeal to an audience beside myself, I must find a way to make match up to that arbitrary view without seeming out of place. that is all.

[Excession]

2- Are you kidding me? When I picture a Psion I picture a shirtless muscular humanoid with glowing tattoos and a shaved head. Lot's of floating crystals of power of different shapes.

When I picture a wizard I picture an old skinny wizened guy with a long beard, robes and a weird hat.

You don't need to let class dictate appearance so much IMO. Class determines mechanics, and only as much of appearance as supported armour types require.

The last wizard I played looked like a young elven woman with pale skin, light blond hair, and green eyes, wearing sensible travelling clothes and carrying an arming sword. Complete lack of being old, having a beard, or wearing robes, and her hat was a plain oiled leather one capable of blocking sun or rain. After a month walking about in deserts and forests she gave up on the long hair as well. She looked less like a wizard, and more like a noble's daughter on holiday, which is what she was.

The next might look like a fantasy version of Doc Holiday, complete with wand of magic missile and a deck of cards for a spellbook.

[MoiMagnus]

I hear a lot of hate on Psions.

people say they don't fit the setting, too similar to arcane casters and they are weird.

1- I think they totally fit the setting. these people need to grab an old Sword and sorcery book and take a good read on the classics. There are plenty of Psions there.

And? If that's not in the personal headcanon of your DM/Players, it I'll feel out of place for them. That's irrelevant if they're right of wrong from an historical point of view.

Moreover, arcane magic has already some mind power, so it covers part of psionic powers.

2- Are you kidding me? When I picture a Psion I picture a shirtless muscular humanoid with glowing tattoos and a shaved head. Lot's of floating crystals of power of different shapes.

When I picture a wizard I picture an old skinny wizened guy with a long beard, robes and a weird hat.

How are those two aesthetics ever capable of overlapping?

That kind of psychic does not overlap with wizards. It overlaps with monks of "whatever school that give them magic abilities". And it overlaps with some kinds of sorcerers.

3- Being weird is the whole point of Psions.

Have you guys never heard of Weird fantasy? Look it up darling, it's totally a thing! (And not some kind of sexual kink) It mixes Sci-fi elements with fantasy elements.

Sure. But some people really like pure medieval-fantasy.

So overall I really don't get what the deal is.

I will add some additional argument against:

1) "One world, one magic". A lot of people likes this idea. They're already not fan of the distinction between arcane and divine magic, but that's too central to D&D to get rid of. So for them anything that isn't arcane or divine should not exist, as it is unnecessary and makes the magic system "uglier".

2) Psionic powers have usually weird rules, specific to psionic characters. Peoples usually don't like that, as it is additional information they have to remember, even when they don't play a psionic character. That's for the same reasons most tables play without poisons rules.

3) "Mental powers should not exist." Some people's don't like at all the influence of mental power on the universe, and would get rid of all the spells from the enchantment school if they could. They don't like the possibility of their character being influenced mentally. They don't like the possibility of NPC being secretly mind controlled.

Lastly, note that I personally have no problems with psionic. Though I don't always put them in my universe when I DM, as they don't feel at the core of D&D, so it depends. (Same for druids, by the way)

[Millstone85]

"One world, one magic". A lot of people likes this idea. They're already not fan of the distinction between arcane and divine magic, but that's too central to D&D to get rid of. So for them anything that isn't arcane or divine should not exist, as it is unnecessary and makes the magic system "uglier".

Personally, I like having multiple magic sources with subdivisions.

Magic

• External (Spellcasting)
  
  • Ambient (Arcane)
  • Borrowed (Divine)
• Internal (Discipline)
  
  • Body (Ki)
  • Mind (Psionics)

But that, indeed, might not be everyone's jazz.

Especially if they start with a definition of arcane spellcasting that has nothing to do with any kind of ambient energy.