The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[danielxcutter]

"Took over part of the globe"? Okay, I need context, even if I need to Chaos Hammer it out of you.

[Efrate]

This is tough. The one saving grace on enthrall is the victim must be charmed by the puppeteer, not just charmed by anything. I think I am going to give this +2*. Dominate person even with a caveat is insane.

And the way I read enthrall it does not matter when your victim was charmed, just that at some point it has been charmed by you. No mention of being charmed first then domination, just by RAW if you ever charmed them, they're yours as long as you are attached. It would be pretty easy to always have total cover as well as a fine creature riding on a host, so you get to be pretty immune to most things.

You path is more or less forced into a caster, with Psion being awesome because a bit of augmentation and anything you come across is your new body for as long as you need it, and you can just go back to a previous one whenever as long as you can touch it, and most things sleep and your stealth is insane as a fine creature. Or just keep them unconscious.

[javcs]

Hmmm.

They definitely merit a "*".

Puppeteers are going to be very swingy, as they are heavily dependent upon what they can obtain as a host.
And what rules the host is going to be operating under. Ie, does the host gain xp, if so, at what rate, if the host does gain xp, how much influence (if any) does the puppeteer have over how the host will level up?

[Celestia]

The enthrall is definitely worth an asterisk, and even without that, it's stats are also really nice, especially without RHD to worry about. I don't think +2 nice, though. It probably won't survive long in a third level party with one HD, and nothing it gets is worth losing an entire cater level.

+1*

[liquidformat]

Puppeteer:
Fine sized Magical Beast (awesome)
-10 str (min 1), +4 dex, +0con, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 Cha Net +8 (amazing)
Speed 5ft (ouch but you don't plan to walk yourself around anyway)
Blindsight, Telepathy, Hide Mind, protect host (Very Nice group abilities)
Skills (Nice group of skills but you will be dumping them and taking classes instead)
PLAs (Nice group that will be useful in many situations)
Enthrall (Stupid powerful)

Honestly I don't think +2 is high enough for this thing. I am not seeing the potential downfalls of entrhall Inevitability is seeing. It seems pretty straight forward to me, if I have full control over any person I charm and then contact until said contact is lost.

So Lets say I play a psion (probably best choice here since I have no arms or anything) and manage to enthrall a cleric or wizard or any tier 1 caster for that matter and I have just doubled my abilities in every single round of every single encounter and dramatically increased my options in any situation. That is absolutely insane, I get two full rounds of actions for everyone else's 1. That is game breaking power deserving of the *.

If we ignore enthrall your best bet is to either go psion or maybe a wizard/sorcerer with surrogate spellcasting and use your psicrystal/familiar as a mount. Either way this thing is still stupid powerful. All and all I think +2* LA is probably the way to go.

[DeTess]

Hmmm, this is a tricky one. The dominate effect is limited to persons, which I assume means it only affects humanoids. This is still very useful, but not as directly broken as nabbing a dragon at lvl1 would be. They get good stats, and a decent set of PLA's for a 1-HD creature. Your fine size makes you hard to hit and easy to hide, but it also means you're incredibly slow, and you have few methods for manipulating normal-people size stuff, like doors. However, your enthralled subject mostly allows you to bypass all these weaknesses, assuming that the dominate person lasts beyond the duration of the charmed condition. If it doesn't, then you get 3 hours per day to have someone carry you around, and after that you're left to the mercy of your fellow party members, if any are present. If you're in the wilderness (for example, when travelling to a dungeon), your thrall is also likely to leave you if they become free-willed after the charm wears off, leaving you stranded.

So, under the assumption that Enthrall only work as long as the target is charmed, I'd give this creature just barely a +1, as they have some pretty good stuff, but are hampered in a lot of common situations. If the Enthrall lasts for as long as you maintain contact, I'd say it's worth a +2 LA,a s a permanently enthralled humanoid can give you a lot of value. It ups your survivability in the early game, and in the late game that humanoid could very well be a force-multiplier by themselves if you pick someone with a bunch of levels in a spellcaster or manifester class.

[liquidformat]

So, under the assumption that Enthrall only work as long as the target is charmed, I'd give this creature just barely a +1, as they have some pretty good stuff, but are hampered in a lot of common situations.

I am not seeing where you are getting a reading of enthrall only lasts as long as they are under the charm effect:

If a puppeteer is in physical contact with a person it has charmed (the puppeteer establishes a physical hold by means of slender infiltrating tendrils), the subject acts as if dominated. (Puppeteers often seek to charm victims first and then “ask” to be picked up.) So long as the puppeteer remains in contact with the victim, the domination remains in effect, even if a check would normally indicate that the effect is broken.

RAW seems pretty clear, as long as you are in contact with said victim they are dominated. Charm is only necessary to start the effect, there is no mention of it ending when charm ends only ending when physical contact is lost.

[Efrate]

Exact wording from enthrall. Which is EX btw. And you can grab a dragon at higher levels with psi charm as a power known

"So long as the puppeteer remains in contact with the victim, the domination remains in effect, even if a check would normally indicate that the effect is broken."

That is direct from the SRD.

[liquidformat]

Exact wording from enthrall. Which is EX btw. And you can grab a dragon at higher levels with psi charm as a power known

"So long as the puppeteer remains in contact with the victim, the domination remains in effect, even if a check would normally indicate that the effect is broken."

That is direct from the SRD.

You are missing "If a puppeteer is in physical contact with a person it has charmed", person is well established to be equivalent to humanoid in 3.5 so I don't think it works on nonhumanoids even if you can charm nonhumanoids...

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, under the assumption that Enthrall only work as long as the target is charmed, I'd give this creature just barely a +1, as they have some pretty good stuff, but are hampered in a lot of common situations. If the Enthrall lasts for as long as you maintain contact, I'd say it's worth a +2 LA,a s a permanently enthralled humanoid can give you a lot of value. It ups your survivability in the early game, and in the late game that humanoid could very well be a force-multiplier by themselves if you pick someone with a bunch of levels in a spellcaster or manifester class.

I agree with this assessment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+2* for me. It's pretty solid to start, but slapping on strictly* better dominate person really pushes it over the top. Without enthrall maybe I'd be willing to go down to +1 but the thing is pretty great overall as is.

[Thurbane]

Puppeteer:
Fine sized Magical Beast (awesome)
-10 str (min 1), +4 dex, +0con, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 Cha Net +8 (amazing)
Speed 5ft (ouch but you don't plan to walk yourself around anyway)
Blindsight, Telepathy, Hide Mind, protect host (Very Nice group abilities)
Skills (Nice group of skills but you will be dumping them and taking classes instead)
PLAs (Nice group that will be useful in many situations)
Enthrall (Stupid powerful)

Honestly I don't think +2 is high enough for this thing. I am not seeing the potential downfalls of entrhall Inevitability is seeing. It seems pretty straight forward to me, if I have full control over any person I charm and then contact until said contact is lost.

So Lets say I play a psion (probably best choice here since I have no arms or anything) and manage to enthrall a cleric or wizard or any tier 1 caster for that matter and I have just doubled my abilities in every single round of every single encounter and dramatically increased my options in any situation. That is absolutely insane, I get two full rounds of actions for everyone else's 1. That is game breaking power deserving of the *.

If we ignore enthrall your best bet is to either go psion or maybe a wizard/sorcerer with surrogate spellcasting and use your psicrystal/familiar as a mount. Either way this thing is still stupid powerful. All and all I think +2* LA is probably the way to go.

With my limited knowledge of psionics, after reading the creature, I'm going to throw a vote behind LA +2* as well.

[unseenmage]

The enthrall is definitely worth an asterisk, and even without that, it's stats are also really nice, especially without RHD to worry about. I don't think +2 nice, though. It probably won't survive long in a third level party with one HD, and nothing it gets is worth losing an entire cater level.

+1*

Agreeing with all of this.

+1*.

Pets are nice but being pet dependant is much much less so.

[StevenC21]

LA +1*.

The +2 gang seems to make several assumptions about the kind of creatures that will be found by this chap. I don't think we should assume that a faster of any significant level with fail a Will save vs a level 1 spell. I think that the abilities innately merit +1. If you could guarantee access to a steady stream of appropriate level casters, that would be different. But you can't. So you can't take into account theoretical abilities your slave has. That's what the * is for, anyways. Swingy stuff.

LA +1*.

[liquidformat]

LA +1*.

The +2 gang seems to make several assumptions about the kind of creatures that will be found by this chap. I don't think we should assume that a faster of any significant level with fail a Will save vs a level 1 spell. I think that the abilities innately merit +1. If you could guarantee access to a steady stream of appropriate level casters, that would be different. But you can't. So you can't take into account theoretical abilities your slave has. That's what the * is for, anyways. Swingy stuff.

LA +1*.

A point to note even if we do take the ruling of it only lasts as long as psionic charm (which I don't see a RAW argument for nor has anyone put forward one) the enthrall power actually works better off of a telepath Puppeteer using psionic charm and focused around pumping DCs. And to be honest you only need a humanoid caster to fail once then they are part of the party leveling up along with you; being able to enslave a caster like this is really powerful.

[lord_khaine]

The enthrall is definitely worth an asterisk, and even without that, it's stats are also really nice, especially without RHD to worry about. I don't think +2 nice, though. It probably won't survive long in a third level party with one HD, and nothing it gets is worth losing an entire cater level.

Problem being we cant just evaluate them at level 1. There are 19 other levels to considder.
And already at level 3 you get to charm/ride an animal or giant.
That can swiftly defaults to, if nothing else a brown bear or a warhorse.

And importantly, its not a caster level.
Its a manifester level. Psions are not hurt quite as badly by this.
Especially not with practiced Manifester.
And so in a level 8 group, your already certain that the party is more or less likely to beat down any sort of viable monster they encounter,
to attach the puppeter to it.

So i agree with the LA * rating. I think its to disruptive for a campaign to be allowed.

[javcs]

A point to note even if we do take the ruling of it only lasts as long as psionic charm (which I don't see a RAW argument for nor has anyone put forward one) the enthrall power actually works better off of a telepath Puppeteer using psionic charm and focused around pumping DCs. And to be honest you only need a humanoid caster to fail once then they are part of the party leveling up along with you; being able to enslave a caster like this is really powerful.

Are they really though? As far as I know, the only RAW on NPCs leveling alongside the party is about Cohorts.

There's no RAW or RAI on how the host might or might not gain XP and levels.
Nor is there any sort of RAW about what kind of control and/or influence over the host's (hypothetical) leveling process is possessed by the puppeteer.

A * is mandatory on this thing, no matter what number you give it.
And the * means we evaluate without the ability (or abilities) that earned the *.

So ... without Enthrall and the host abilities ...

Huh. Without a host, this thing is actually pretty terrible as a PC.
Hmm.
On the one hand, without Enthrall and the ability to get a host, the puppeteer is objectively terrible, probably a -0* because of the sheer suckitude of being a very small wormlike entity, no matter how good your mental stats are, and that's how it's supposed to be rated with the * in play for Enthrall and host abilities. On the other ... the stuff covered by the * unquestionably gives you significant ability to compensate for most of the basics you naturally lack, however the DM decides to rule on the stuff that needs clarification.

I'm not sure a number can be given fairly.
LA ?*

[ViperMagnum357]

I think I am going to go for a LA +2* to start with; this thing has issues that need to be resolved between the player and DM before the dice start rolling, and once they do I think this thing should be able to keep up around two levels behind. Open to further discussion.

[Celestia]

+2* for me. It's pretty solid to start, but slapping on strictly* better dominate person really pushes it over the top. Without enthrall maybe I'd be willing to go down to +1 but the thing is pretty great overall as is.

I think I've had to remind people how the asterisk functions like four times now, and yet people still keep not getting it. So, let's go for number five, I guess.

The asterisk is used to denote an ability one deems is problematic. When applying an asterisk to a rating, you have the asterisk represent the problematic ability and then RATE THE MONSTER AS IF THE ABILITY DIDN'T EXIST. You can't give it an asterisk because of enthrall and then also bump it up to +2 because of enthrall. It's either one or the other, not both.

[StevenC21]

Inevitability, I hope you will take into consideration the sheer volume of people misusing the asterisk when you assign the final LA. I think LA +1* is the best, as I stated before. If enthrall wasn't * worthy, then it would be LA +2, but it is.

[Covenant12]

I think +1* is about right. It is in a psionics book, and +4/+6 casting stat is too good for a manifester at +0. Combined with +0 Con and good Dex. Wild cohort or something is an option. Horrible Str isn't game-breaking and smaller size can be a benefit to a manifester.

Enthrall is a problem. Even if only humanoids you might permanently dominate a caster far above the party's level. That deserves *. It even says it doesn't break on checks, like forcing a good character to do something very evil. (my reading is a save to refuse the command, but they stay dominated)
Protection from evil and friends remove that, but a caster puppet is a big deal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think I've had to remind people how the asterisk functions like four times now, and yet people still keep not getting it. So, let's go for number five, I guess.

There is no need to be so crass about a miscommunication so let me be clear:

This is good. Tiny, bonuses to all mental stats, sexy PLAs. I vote it to be +2. I can see why a +1 is a reasonable answer and would be willing to entertain such arguments but until I see what I feel to be a compelling one I will stay at +2. Enthrall is problematic due to it's wildly variable effectiveness and risk of suddenly breaking the early game (later on it is dubious vs normal dominate). Give it an asterisk, but +3 is going to demand a lot more than just enthrall so we will stay at +2, yielding +2*.

Is that clear enough?

[Caelestion]

This thread line does not tend to bring out the best in people, as we've seen.

[Aniikinis]

I'm going with +1*, myself. Entrall can be problematic and the creature is severely pet-dependent. Even if the GM and player talk it out during creation, a lucky crit or failed save can completely gimp the character without taking them out of the fight. Sure, a good number of enemies will be humanoids for the purposes of the entrall ability(as I'm reading it People=Humanoids in 3.5) but as you go up in levels, you'll require a good amount of investment in "cattle" to keep up adventuring.

[Dimers]

This thread line does not tend to bring out the best in people, as we've seen.

If it did, we'd have to rate the thread's LA as higher

I'm not seeing the need for an asterisk for the puppeteer. I think it's pretty clear what changes for the DM when a puppeteer is in the party -- why the flashing neon sign?

My biggest interest is in the 5-foot movement speed. So, you go as fast as you can when you take a 5' step ... your stealth modifier from Fine size is reduced or negated by needing to move full speed to make any progress at all ... an elocator puppeteer would get a double-move free each round ...

I think LA +1 is enough. There are tons of problems a puppeteer PC would face based on their limbless, unspeaking, superslow, socially disgusting body, and you really can't guarantee a fix for those problems. The mental stats are great, but so are hands. Everything abusable about the puppeteer requires a T1/T2 class, and those can break the game anyway.

[Elkad]

I'm in at +2. No asterix.

I don't really have a problem with the single dominate/control. Oh sure, the GM could let you go save-fishing and get something overpowered for your level, but you could also get stomped when it makes it's save the first 19 times.
I'm going with the RAI here. Once it touches you (the charmee), it's some creepy control where it sticks tendrils in your brainstem and meatpuppets you. Just as it's name and the photo imply.

The other limitations just aren't. Ride a party member. Heck, ride your psicrystal or raven or (in an emergency) charm a random squirrel, you are Fine.

[DeTess]

I personally don't see the necessity for an asterisk, at least not in the way I've seen it commonly used in the thread (for abilities that absolutely break the game, such as those split-up abilities, or stuff that absolutely breaks the character, such as the Glaistig's water symbiosis). This creature gets a single-target dominate person which is pretty good, but doesn't break a game-world over it's knee all by itself.

[Celestia]

I've been thinking about it, and I've decided that no asterisk is needed. Unlimited dominate may seem problematic on the surface, but the thing can only have one mind slave at a time, so, in practice, you'd basically just be playing a standard humanoid with better mental stats and the ability to switch bodies when one dies. That's nice, but not problematic nice. I'd also say that even with enthrall, it's only +1. The size is basically a non-issue as you'll never not be riding a meat puppet.

[liquidformat]

After reading things over and thinking it over I am willing to get on the no asterisk band wagon. Though I still think this is too powerful for just +1 so sticking with +2.

[Zaq]

On the borderline between +1 and +2, no asterisk. It’s a really weird play style for a PC, but I don’t think it needs the same kind of DM warning as “hey, this makes spawn” or “hey, this gets wish for free.” I don’t think we need to straight up remove Enthrall altogether.

This is almost the opposite of the more common scenario: I kind of feel like +1 is more appropriate early and +2 is more appropriate later. Having 1 HD at ECL 3 is really punishing, but in the long run, that +2 feels about right. Weird. I guess I’ll say +2 for now, but I’m open to being talked into +1.

Also I can’t help but think of Space Station Silicon Valley when contemplating this thing. Anyone else play that particular forgotten N64 gem?