The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Zaq]

This is a really cool monster and a really awkward PC.

8 RHD is just a bit too much, I think. Also, they can’t speak. (Well, “do not speak,” but that’s still pretty awkward if taken prescriptively.) Add in the “you don’t get to be part of the rest of the encounter when you use your signature trick” issue that others have mentioned, and I think we’ve got enough downsides to be in the -0 column. Which is a shame, really. It’s a cool critter that I’ve never really paid attention to in the past.

[OgresAreCute]

It's got a lot of attacks, but low offensive stats. Time Filch feels like a gimmick at most. Abberation HD are pretty terrible, especially coupled with an intelligence penalty. If you meet anything with DR 5 or more you're going to do no damage.

-0. Would be decent if it had half as many RHD.

Also, Dungeoneering is far from the worst knowledge. Just the fact that it allows you to identify a couple of relatively common types makes it a lot more valuable than many others.

[Thurbane]

Also, Dungeoneering is far from the worst knowledge. Just the fact that it allows you to identify a couple of relatively common types makes it a lot more valuable than many others.

Yep: by default, any Knowledge that lets you identify creatures is usually more useful than those that don't - especially given the existence of Knowledge Devotion, Dark Knowledge etc.

Arcana = 3 types
Dungeoneering = 2 types
Local = 1 type
Nature = 6 types
Religion = 1 type (2 if you include Deathless, I believe)
The Planes = 2 types

[DeTess]

Yep: by default, and Knowledge that lets you identify creatures is usually more useful than those that don't - especially given the existence of Knowledge Devotion, Dark Knowledge etc.

Arcana = 3 types
Dungeoneering = 2 types
Local = 1 type
Nature = 6 types
Religion = 1 type (2 if you include Deathless, I believe)
The Planes = 2 types

I think you missed knowledge (architecture and engineering) in there. It's mostly used to identify creatures with the 'gazebo' type.

[JMS]

I think you missed knowledge (architecture and engineering) in there. It's mostly used to identify creatures with the 'gazebo' type.

Also robots in PF!

[Celestia]

I think you missed knowledge (architecture and engineering) in there. It's mostly used to identify creatures with the 'gazebo' type.

Yeah, but even if you identify the gazebo, that won't save you from its terrible power. All it'll do is give you a greater understanding of how thoroughly screwed you are.

[danielxcutter]

While probably still not enough to rescue this from the suckage pile, Spot, Listen, and Tumble are actually halfway decent class skills.

Time Filch still sucks though, because why in the Infinite Layers of the Abyss is taking yourself out of combat - and someone else, too, but still - supposed to be a good idea? At least a Truenamer with Knowledge Devotion can shoot a +1 quick loading light crossbow.

[liquidformat]

-0 for Temporal Filcher no question, its ability scores suck, it has bad rhd, and not enough/good enough extras to bring it up to par. Time filch is only worth while on your cohort not on your character, who wants to sit out every combat to use that horrible ability. Furthermore, it doesn't have the bab nor the strength score or heck even the con/hp/ac to utilize time filch and even if it did one casting of FoM voids your gimmick which guess what everyone got access to a level ago. This is garbage no two ways about it.

Also was away for the weekend but +0 Flesh Harrower its downsides seem to balance out its strengths, though I think it is in half-elf range of +0.

[Thurbane]

I'd definitely take Knowledge (Dungeoneering) over Knowledge (Barbarian Lore), Knowledge (Code of Martial Honor), Knowledge (Gemology), Knowledge (Law), Knowledge (Shadowlands), Knowledge (Spirits), Knowledge (War) or Knowledge (Weaponry).

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yep: by default, any Knowledge that lets you identify creatures is usually more useful than those that don't - especially given the existence of Knowledge Devotion, Dark Knowledge etc.

Arcana = 3 types
Dungeoneering = 2 types
Local = 1 type
Nature = 6 types
Religion = 1 type (2 if you include Deathless, I believe)
The Planes = 2 types

To be fair, Local's one type is the most common creature type in many campaigns. (It's also a type that mst DMs will usually let people identify without a roll, but hush.) Meanwhile, most of Nature's six types come up infrequently.
Arcana is definitely the big winner. Its creature types are common, and it's also used to identify a bunch of non-creature stuff (like plot-relevant runes). Spellcraft overlaps with its niche a bit, but it's still good.

[Celestia]

To be fair, Local's one type is the most common creature type in many campaigns. (It's also a type that mst DMs will usually let people identify without a roll, but hush.) Meanwhile, most of Nature's six types come up infrequently.
Arcana is definitely the big winner. Its creature types are common, and it's also used to identify a bunch of non-creature stuff (like plot-relevant runes). Spellcraft overlaps with its niche a bit, but it's still good.

"You encounter a strange creature with a tall, slender body; long, spindly limbs; and pale skin. Its face is covered in scraggly, black hair, and it brandishes a cruel axe."

"Woah! What the heck is this?"

*DM rolls behind the screen*

"You identify it as a human."

*Deadpan stare*

[Zaq]

"You encounter a strange creature with a tall, slender body; long, spindly limbs; and pale skin. It's face is covered in scraggly, black hair, and it brandishes a cruel axe."

"Woah! What the heck is this?"

*DM rolls behind the screen*

"You identify it as a human."

*Deadpan stare*

And if the character happens to have failed their K: Local check, they identify it as, like, a ghoul or something.

[danielxcutter]

I think that falls under the "untrained common knowledge check" thing, at least... If we're talking about, say, Knowledge Devotion, or actual lore based checks, on the other hand, then it would probably be different.

"Oh hey, humanoids hate it when you stab them here!" *stabs spleen out*

[Madsamurai]

"Oh hey, humanoids hate it when you stab them here!" *stabs spleen out*

One weird trick humanoids don't want you to know!

[Aniikinis]

"Oh hey, humanoids hate it when you stab them here!" *stabs spleen out*

One weird trick humanoids don't want you to know!

"This pious son of a drake is killing super bad wights.and basically, you have -5 int. How? ..Just watch this free video >"

[Thurbane]

One weird trick humanoids don't want you to know!

PC: *fails a Knowledge (local) check*
DM: Before you stands a bipedal creature, which resembles a shaven ape of some kind...

[Dimers]

Someone compared the filcher to a level 8 totemist. The totemist has vastly better skills, better flexibility, and a small amount of scaling even if they leave the class immediately. LA -0 for the filcher. I'd be willing to try one anyway, but not in a game where people are counting on my contribution.

[Zaq]

I'd be willing to try one anyway, but not in a game where people are counting on my contribution.

I’m not Inevitability, but I nominate this for immortalization. Sums it all up, really.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd be willing to try one anyway, but not in a game where people are counting on my contribution.

I’m not Inevitability, but I nominate this for immortalization. Sums it all up, really.

Seconded. There are so many creatures that are cool but way overleveled for their gimmick.

[dhasenan]

PC: *fails a Knowledge (local) check*
DM: Before you stands a bipedal creature, which resembles a shaven ape of some kind...

PC: *fails a Knowledge (nature) check*
DM: Sorry, you wouldn't get that reference...

[Aniikinis]

PC: *fails a Knowledge (nature) check*

PC: Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist...

[Inevitability]

I’m not Inevitability, but I nominate this for immortalization. Sums it all up, really.

Honestly, if Dimers is okay with it I'll gladly quote those words of wisdom.

[Inevitability]

LA for the temporal troublemaker:

-0: 8 votes
+0: 4 votes

Overwhelming -0, LA will be updated.

[Inevitability]

Thought Eater

Anyone curious what those looked like in earlier versions of D&D? No? Too bad, I had to look at this and so do you.

With that out of the way, thought eaters are very underwhelming for their threatening appearance. They're relatively low-level, with three HD (aberration type, because we can't have nice things), small size, and limblessness.

Their ability scores are a mixed bag. +8 dexterity, +2 strength, +2 wisdom and +4 charisma are all neat, but +0 constitution and -4 intelligence aren't. +2 natural armor is okayish.

As for their natural weapons... thought eaters don't have the bite, or claws, or really anything you'd expect of them. Instead, they have a natural touch attack that deals six power points of damage or, against nonpsionic creatures, a single point of intelligence. It shouldn't be hard to see how outright terrible that is.

Thought eaters also get some PLAs, which are somewhat better. At-will Psionic Daze can be used to lock down low-level humanoids, at-will Precognition is essentially a 1/encounter boost where it's needed most, and at-will Detect Psionics is useful for obvious reasons. The other abilities (3/day Thought Shield and at-will Distract) are less notable.

Finally, there's the ability that makes the thought eater interesting again: Ethereal Jaunt. The eater spends most of its time on the ethereal plane, and can shift to the material as a move action. As a free action, it can then shift back. At ECL 3, this ability is huge, and lets you bypass essentially all physical barriers, scout all encounters, ambush foes at key moments, and escape combat whenever needed.

One important drawback: the thought eater can't actually stay on the material plane for long, and dies if it spends ten consecutive rounds there. This is moderately annoying most of the time, but becomes outright dangerous if you get knocked out.

For the asterisk, I'll assume that both Ethereal Jaunt and the inability to stay on the material plane are removed (mostly because the second without the first means a very quick death). Without those traits, the thought eater is a very unimpressive creature, whose lack of thumbs, viable natural attacks, and useful traits condemn it to -0* LA purgatory.

[ViperMagnum357]

Thought Eater: essentially unplayable unless you remove the 10 round limit on the Material Plane. Even in a campaign where you will spend little time on the material, you are going to have to go there at some point and there is no easy way around the effect. Even rendering yourself immune to death effects through magic is dicey; since this appears to be a state based effect, if the magic protecting you is suppressed after you spend 10 rounds there, you immediately fall dead with no save or chance to shift back, even as a free action. You also need a Ring of Sustenance, running you a minimum of 2,500 GP extra to avoid dying every 24 hours if you do not have a some people to feed on.

Also, the rest of the critter is unimpressive, and leaves you little to work with if you are not going to abuse Ethereal Jaunt to the hilt. Net abilities are par and natural AC is down by 1; manipulators are a problem, Aberration RHD again costing you a point of BAB and providing crap skill points, balanced by low level PLAs and a decent 40 ft speed, 10 ft faster than typical for a small quadruped. Overall, I am going for LA -0* here. Asterisk is fixing the material plane lethality; that has to be altered by the GM before you start rolling up the character, and even then this is a little under what I would consider acceptable for 3 RHD.

[Zaq]

LA -0* is fair for the reasons Inevitability stated. Without the ability (or need) to go ethereal, it’s just some mediocre stats and okayish PLAs saddled on an uncomfortable body with no thumbs, no tongue (got that pesky “do not speak” language again), and no natural weapons, but with obnoxious RHD. And you die if you don’t waste a minimum of two combat turns every day making people stupider.

Gonna give this one a hard pass. I’m not sure it would even be fun without the asterisk. More powerful, probably, but more fun is kind of a toss-up.

[liquidformat]

LA -0* for angry platypus ghost!

[Elkad]

If we assume it takes a mental effort to stay on the Material, and unconsciousness causes you to shift back to the Ethereal, we can fix the random dying part.

Of course that may leave you bleeding out on the Ethereal without your friends to help.

Still doesn't fix the rest of it though.
-0 / -0*

[danielxcutter]

Re: Temporal Filcher - if the ability is based on Time Hop, does that mean you get the Wisdom checks to get out early?

Re: Thought Eater - No. Just no. LA -0 to the Far Realms and back.

[javcs]

Thought Eater: essentially unplayable unless you remove the 10 round limit on the Material Plane. Even in a campaign where you will spend little time on the material, you are going to have to go there at some point and there is no easy way around the effect. Even rendering yourself immune to death effects through magic is dicey; since this appears to be a state based effect, if the magic protecting you is suppressed after you spend 10 rounds there, you immediately fall dead with no save or chance to shift back, even as a free action. You also need a Ring of Sustenance, running you a minimum of 2,500 GP extra to avoid dying every 24 hours if you do not have a Psionic cohort whose primary purpose is to allow you to drain their power points.

Also, the rest of the critter is unimpressive, and leaves you little to work with if you are not going to abuse Ethereal Jaunt to the hilt. Net abilities are par and natural AC is down by 1; manipulators are a problem, Aberration RHD again costing you a point of BAB and providing crap skill points, balanced by low level PLAs and a decent 40 ft speed, 10 ft faster than typical for a small quadruped. Overall, I am going for LA -0* here. Asterisk is fixing the material plane lethality; that has to be altered by the GM before you start rolling up the character, and even then this is a little under what I would consider acceptable for 3 RHD.

One point of Int counts as 6 power points in terms of sustenance.

--


That said, concur with LA -0*.