The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Thurbane]

I can't help but feel that their corpse-jockeying abilities aren't even rating a mention here.

As a full round action, you can generate a corporeal body with your HP total an unlimited number of times per day, as long as corpses are available. And humanoid corpses usually aren't in short supply.

This is pretty amazing for exploration, infiltration, trap-springing etc. It adds a lot of versatility to the chassis.

By my reading, if you jump into a corpse with a natural bite attack, you can still deliver your poison without the -4 to hit and provoking AoO. Does that sound right?

[Inevitability]

I can't help but feel that their corpse-jockeying abilities aren't even rating a mention here.

As a full round action, you can generate a corporeal body with your HP total an unlimited number of times per day, as long as corpses are available. And humanoid corpses usually aren't in short supply.

This is pretty amazing for exploration, infiltration, trap-springing etc. It adds a lot of versatility to the chassis.

By my reading, if you jump into a corpse with a natural bite attack, you can still deliver your poison without the -4 to hit and provoking AoO. Does that sound right?

Sounds right, but how many humanoids even have bite attacks? Even gnolls don't.

[Thurbane]

Sounds right, but how many humanoids even have bite attacks? Even gnolls don't.

Sounds right, but how many humanoids even have bite attacks? Even gnolls don't.

Lizardfolk, Troglodyte, Darfellan, Phaerlock, Tren, Slig...actually, not as many as I first thought.

[javcs]

By my reading, if you jump into a corpse with a natural bite attack, you can still deliver your poison without the -4 to hit and provoking AoO. Does that sound right?

While that would probably be RAI, and if playing one, I'd suggest that to the DM ... my read is that RAW says that a natural bite attack on the body doesn't help you if you want to deliver the bhut poison with your bite - though I'd say that you can still bite for damage and not deliver the poison if you use the body's natural bite attack.

[Sutr]

Hunger domain or animal devotion on the fast track to divine metamagic persist divine power? It's an interesting trade reminds me of elemental scion of zilargo. Only less rules for how it is supposed to function.

[No brains]

Lizardfolk, Troglodyte, Darfellan, Phaerlock, Tren, Slig...actually, not as many as I first thought.

There are Sligs in 3.5? They aren't the same as the sligs from Oddworld, are they? I've had a dumb urge to play one of those guys for a while.

[Inevitability]

Lizardfolk, Troglodyte, Darfellan, Phaerlock, Tren, Slig...actually, not as many as I first thought.

Yeah, I think at most two of those are going to appear in most games, and then only for like two or three encounters each.

[Inevitability]

Votes so far:

-0: 6 votes
+0: 5 votes
+1: 1 vote

Very close between +0 and -0, but the latter wins out.

[danielxcutter]

Hunger domain or animal devotion on the fast track to divine metamagic persist divine power? It's an interesting trade reminds me of elemental scion of zilargo. Only less rules for how it is supposed to function.

Bite of the WereX spells or Bite of the Wolf(I think?) could work too, but I dunno neither of those really work for a bhut...

[ViperMagnum357]

There are Sligs in 3.5? They aren't the same as the sligs from Oddworld, are they? I've had a dumb urge to play one of those guys for a while.

Larger cousins of the Kobold, from the Dragonlance setting, detailed in Dragons of Krynn. Humanoid with Reptilian subtype, 3 RHD, and not much to recommend if you are not into bite attacks that deal 1 point of bonus acid damage.

[Inevitability]

Blackstone Gigant

That's gigant, not giant.

I'll be blunt: 32 construct HD shatter all hopes of this being remotely playable. The terrible stats (aside from 45 strength everything is 10 or lower) just add insult to injury. A few random resistances, fly speed, and SR don't make up for the fact that, well, you're using this when everybody else has 12 Epic levels already.

That said, the blackstone gigant sure gets style points. Its main natural attacks are a quartet of slams that all force a save versus petrification. It can give up on a single slam attack to animate a creature turned to stone this way, which is mostly useless against adventurers but is incredibly cool and should honestly exist on some lower-level monster.

Interestingly, the alignment section mentions both that it's 'same as creator' and 'usually neutral evil', despite no alignment restrictions existing for the creator or necessary spells. Apparently evil casters are just more likely to waste resources on a giant stone monster.

With all that said, blackstone gigant bad as a PC, relatively poor as a monster, amazing as a concept. -0 LA.

[Dimers]

Cast it into exterior darkness! LA -0.

[javcs]

Concur, LA -0.

The Gigant has a nice concept. But it is lacking on execution of that concept.

And way too many RHD for any hope of playability.
Though if it had fewer RHD, the fact it has a Save or Die on all four slam attacks might actually be worth something.


Better as a monster, but I can't see anyone ever actually making one, as the creation costs are too high - 105,000 gp and 7800xp. Plus you need Miracle.

[Thurbane]

There are Sligs in 3.5? They aren't the same as the sligs from Oddworld, are they? I've had a dumb urge to play one of those guys for a while.

Actually, I just double checked - it's not an official race, its in the Bestiary of Krynn, which is actually a 3rd party book.

I don't think, they're the same creatures from the video game.

[Blue Jay]

The blackstone gigant is an obvious LA -0.

[Caelestion]

Votes so far:

-0: 6 votes
+0: 5 votes
+1: 1 vote

Very close between +0 and -0, but the latter wins out.

Was that just a personal choice or did you discount the +1 vote?

[No brains]

Actually, I just double checked - it's not an official race, its in the Bestiary of Krynn, which is actually a 3rd party book.

I don't think, they're the same creatures from the video game.

Unfortunately, no. Oddworld Sligs are ugly green guys with mechanical pants.

[Efrate]

-0 to blackstone. 32 construct hd. Just no. What is their cr? I am guessing like 15 at best?

[ViperMagnum357]

-0 to blackstone. 32 construct hd. Just no.

Concur. Dunno what could be done to salvage this without lopping off at least a third of the RHD.

[Thurbane]

Unfortunately, no. Oddworld Sligs are ugly green guys with mechanical pants.

Maybe an Illithid (or Half-Illithid) with Warforged Grafts? :P

---

Blackstone Gigant

32RHD. You're epic before you take so much as a single class level. In exchange you get good Str, terrible other stats, gargantuan size, 4 slam attacks with a petrification rider effect, a trample attack, a bunch of immunties and resistances, and the ability to animate statues.

Might be impressive at half (or less) or the RHD, but this does not stack up favourably in epic play. Easy LA -0 here.

[Sutr]

+0 mundanes at this level are only using gear at this level to be effective :( . I see no difference between this and a level 32 swashbuckler, fighter, barbarian, knight, soulknife, and soulborn.

[javcs]

+0 mundanes at this level are only using gear at this level to be effective :( . I see no difference between this and a level 32 swashbuckler, fighter, barbarian, knight, soulknife, and soulborn.

The only one of those that's remotely applicable as a point of comparison is a barbarian. Because it's the only T4 ... the rest just aren't in the range we're looking at for comparisons.


And the Barb has almost certainly PrC'd. They would have up to 27 levels of various PRCs. Up to 12 of them as Epic PRCs.

And the Barb is going to have way more HP. The Barb will have almost as much HP just from average HP/HD, before their no doubt considerable Constitution bonus, which could easily double or more their HP before Rage bonuses.


Or, the comparison is with a Warblade/prcs. Admittedly, there's no Epic Initiation material, but still.



And, granted, at epic levels, mundanes tend to be significantly inferior to casters, even more so than at non epic levels.
But just because mundanes tend to suck at Epic doesn't make sucking more than they do okay.

[Dimers]

To add to javcs's rebuttal: At least the standard martials can benefit fully from equipment. This beastie's one trick relies on its natural attacks. Standard martials can also fit inside most dungeons and buildings and they don't crush the ground they're standing on -- very positive traits in many campaigns. Finally, standard martials get more than one skill point per level and a skill list larger than THREE FRIGGIN' SKILLS, two of which overlap in effect and the other being obviated by the creature's movement modes.

I usually rate LA a bit higher than the average here, and for me, this earns a "negative many".

-0 to blackstone. 32 construct hd. Just no. What is their cr? I am guessing like 15 at best?

Eighteen. Which, to be fair, is not completely unreasonable for a creature with the ability to petrify four creatures in one round under ideal circumstances.

[javcs]

Eighteen. Which, to be fair, is not completely unreasonable for a creature with the ability to petrify four creatures in one round under ideal circumstances.

True. At CR 18, 4 melee save or dies per round is brutal. Especially when you realize that as gargantuan monster, it has a 20ft reach. Combined with a 40ft(perfect) fly speed and the Trample ability ... it can very easily get at those party members with inferior Fort saves.
And anyone who fails their Fort save can get turned into an animated object as an attack action.

Though I admit to uncertainty as to the value of Combat Reflexes on something with a Dex of 7, as is the case with the standard entry example.

[Inevitability]

Was that just a personal choice or did you discount the +1 vote?

I generally don't include my own vote in tallies like this (nor did I this time), but if there's a tie that must be broken I figure it's worth using for that.

Also, while I'm willing to count the +1 as a generic 'more in favor of +0 than -0' (so that it can break ties), I'm hesitant of counting it exactly as strongly as an actual +0 vote.

In that case, after all, everybody who wants +0 instead of -0 would lose exactly nothing by voting +1 instead: if every +0 voter goes +1 then the vote will be split between -0 and +1 (leading to a +0 compromise), and if only a portion of them does that, you get a three-way -0/+0/+1, the +1 votes get counted as +0, and you lose nothing.

[unseenmage]

I love me some Constructs, I really do. I just wish they didnt suck so very very much.

Clearly -0.

At least it's a cool monster, even if it's an impossible minion.

[Sutr]

So the rebuttal boils down to hit points and skill points and using natural attacks?

It is a lot of hit points.

Its overnight though I might need to make a more serious argument about 5.4 mil. All feats can be chosen as as if the thing appeared at epic (dire charge, sidestep Rolibar's gambit, combat Reflexes and additional item space X6, power attack ). The two skills being the only useful 2 skills at epic.

This won't be that challenging to continue the devils advocate on.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So the rebuttal boils down to hit points and skill points and using natural attacks?

No. It boils down to 32 levels of superior stats and abilities.

Blackstone gigant, definitely -0.

[Sutr]

I haven't seen a barbarian with +34 to strength, construct immunities a save or die on every attack, flight, dr 15, and gargantuan size. Likely has an additional pair of arms as well for rings and gloves.

[ZamielVanWeber]

-0. A terrifying monster even at CR 18 but at ECL 32 this thing lacks a certain amount of oomph. The lost BAB is at least not a problem I guess? I would love to play a lesser one but you would need to shred the HD for starters.