The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0 on the Horned Cricket of Doom. Not much to salvage if you do not plan on building around the horns, and the excessive actions to reel them in is a non-starter; no need to delve further than that.

[Thurbane]

-0, 15 vermin rhd and nothing much to show for it...

Agreed. Not much more for me to say that others haven't: LA -0.

[Covenant12]

Solidly -0. Can't really contribute effectively in any role at ECL 15, massively worse that dwarf barbarian.

[Lapak]

Seems cute to turn into, but not so great to wake up as. -0.

Ha. Now I want one as a mount just so I can name it Gregor.

But yeah, -0.

[danielxcutter]

Ha. Now I want one as a mount just so I can name it Gregor.

But yeah, -0.

I don't get it.

[Lapak]

I don't get it.

'When Gregor Samsa woke up one morning from unsettling dreams, he found himself changed in his bed into a monstrous vermin.'

[Netbrian]

-0 . They barely would be of any use as a pet, much less a PC. Maybe they'd be decent ammunition.

[Inevitability]

Canomorph

Remember when I talked about there being so many fiendish dog variants? Guess what, now there's fiendish lycanthropes!

Canomorphs, like werebeasts, have confusing statblocks that assume the base creature already has some character levels. Unlike lycanthropes, they don't have an easily-summarized template description. I'm going to just be stripping away all class levels (as well as their elite stats) and rate the resulting monster as if it's a standalone creature, which seems like the most consistent way to handle this.

Short sidenote: canomorphs state that their ability scores are basically just the base stats of their beast form with the elite array applied, except that they don't match those stats. Combined with the difficulty of reverse-engineering the elite array, I'll be ignoring the statblock ability scores where and substituting the (nearly equivalent ones) of the 3.0 fiends instead.

Traits shared by all canomorphs are easily summed up: they can use Greater Command against beasts of their kind, get Scent, and of course can shift into a humanoid form (that's right, the canines are their base form) as a move action. This alternate form doesn't affect the things they are carrying or wearing, so either get two sets of armor or focus on one form for combat.

Haraknin

Hell hound variants. They come with four outsider HD, mediocre stats (+2 to all physicals, -4 intelligence and charisma), and a rather weak breath weapon that deals only 1d4+1 fire damage. 40 ft. base movement, +5 natural armor, an 1d8 bite (no fire rider) and Track as a bonus feat. I guess a Small-sized party member can ride you, if that ever ends up being relevant.

Their humanoid form has the general advantages of being humanoid, at the cost of 10 ft. of speed and the bite attack.

Honestly, I can see why 3.5 buffed hell hounds: this is just kind of pathetic. Losing out on four levels isn't good, and net negative stats combined with rather useless secondary abilities isn't either. Hell Hounds had many problems, and being nonhumanoid was only one of those. -0 LA.

Shadurakul

Shadow Mastiffs, which actually got +1 LA when I first reviewed them (maybe it should be lowered to +0 though?). 4 outsider HD again, bonuses to all stats (if you ignore the -6 intelligence) ranging from +6 to +2, 50 ft. land speed, an 1d6 bite that Trips, and the ability to enter shadow and get a 40% miss chance (or, by 3.5 rules, total concealment) until you're in real or magical daylight. Shadurakuls can also Bay, which panics all non-evil outsiders within 300 ft. for 2d4 rounds and is pseudo-friendly (use it on your allies and they become immune for the day).

Humanoid form can still bay and shadow blend, but loses the ability to Trip (even if it gains a new bite attack) and slows down by 20 ft.

I think this is worth +0 for sure, perhaps even +1. Shadow Blend is a great ability, and Bay has its uses too. The stats are nice, and the humanoid form helps a lot as well. +0 for now, we'll see if it is worthy of more.

Vultivor

Based on the Vorr from the same book. Only 3 outsider HD, but stats on par with the shadurakul's (+6 strength and dexterity, +4 constitution and charisma, -4 intelligence). Additionally, the vultivor gets 2d6 sneak attack, which synergizes nicely with its 2d4 bite (with Trip) and two 1d3 claws.

On top of that, vorrs also get 160 ft. of Shadow Jumps per day, and can assume a shadow form for ten minutes per day. Said form is... ill-defined, but apparently gives it immunity to most damage (3.0 rules say 'DR 50/+5', 3.5 update booklet is helpfully silent), resistance to acid and fire, immunity to many statuses, and the ability to move across walls, ceilings, and liquids.

Considering that it can also turn humanoid without losing much (Bite, Trip, movement speed), this seems like a straight upgrade from most rogues, especially after it takes a level in rogue for even more sneak attack and Trapfinding. +1 LA for sure, maybe even +2.



Big update this time: if I messed anything up please tell me.

[StevenC21]

-0, +0, and +1.

4 RHD and no good stuff? Bleh.

The Shadow mastiff furry is good enough to play.

The third thing has like four natural attacks plus other benefits. It could make a mean rogue.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Clock me in at -0, +0, and +1, although the vultivor is definitely getting a side eye for a possible +2 from me. Nice to be out of -0 purgatory.

[ViperMagnum357]

Clock me in at -0, +0, and +1

There we go. Not much to say, what with those horrid statblocks deterring analysis. WTF was WOTC thinking there, with the only blocks being example critters complete with variable class levels? Ugh. That setup hurts my brain, almost as much as the crunch design of the previous entry.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Shadurakul is an excellent candidate for siren, oddly enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'll join in on -0, +0, +1.

[Aniikinis]

I'm with the crowd on -0, +0, +1.

[Celestia]

-0, +0, and +1.

Same, and I also agree that the base shadow mastiff should be lowered to +0 as it is a strict downgrade from a shadow mastiff that can also turn human.

[Efrate]

-0, +0, and +2. 50 concealment in nearly all conditions that are not outside under full sun, 3 attacks, 2d6 sneak, full bab (assuming outsider base form for base hd?), and even massive Dr nope 50/+5 I imagine is metal and alignment at worse, epic if not.

[Thurbane]

Pending a more detailed investigation, I'm in agreement with -0, +0, +1.

Fun fact I discovered the other day: the Appendix in FC2 (p.158) that provides a list of "all the devils described in official DUNGEON & DRAGONS products", advises us that Canomorphs are classified as Devils.

Not just Haraknin, mind you, but Canomorphs in general - presumably including the NE Shadurakul and the CE Vultivor. FC1 doesn't include Canomorphs (or Vultivors) in its index of Demons, so there you go. If you're ever looking for a CE Devil for whatever reason, Vultivor is your guy!

AFAIK this never got addressed in errata...

[edit] As pointed out to me recently, the fact the Devils by CR list only mentions Canomorphs of CR 5, it's probably limited to Haraknin. [/edit]

[Debatra]

Two points of clarification:

1. The Shadurakul's Bay ability affects all creatures except evil outsiders. The above-posted syntax was unclear between that and "only outsiders that are not evil". I've seen stranger.

2. The Vultivor's Shadow Form is a once/day ability that lasts up to ten minutes. I point this out because there are many other abilities (like its Shadow Jump) that could be broken up into increments.

With that said, I'll join the group in saying -0, +0, +1. If the Shadow Form could be broken up into increments, even if they had to use up a full minute at a time, I'd be a bit more tempted to say +2.

[StevenC21]

If possible, I would like to re-rate the ORDINARY Shadow Mastiff at +0. It is, as has been stated, a strict downgrade from this creature which is already only +0.

[Covenant12]

If possible, I would like to re-rate the ORDINARY Shadow Mastiff at +0. It is, as has been stated, a strict downgrade from this creature which is already only +0.

In fairness that's a very strong +0 at levels 4-5. I'm not sure how well it progresses into higher levels, though.
Hide/Move Silently/Total Concealment most time/Spot/Listen/Survival with Track bonus feat, scent, and bonuses to Wis and Dex. Int loss stings quite a bit, but starting with Outsider type makes that tolerable.

I think -0 for first is clear, and for the latter two +0 and +1 set a floor for what I'd consider. Vorr matches up quite well going into rogue or swordsage at +1, with sneak attack, skills, and tricks. Raising either from that would be painful, but I'll be watching any arguments for +1 Shadow Mastiff/+2 Vorr.

[javcs]

Haraknin/Hellhound Canomorph: LA -0.
Admittedly, it's clearly better than the baseline Hellhound, but still inadequate.

Shadurakal/Shadow Mastiff Canomorph: LA +0
This one has the biggest changes from the baseline creature, as the Shadow Mastiff underwent significant changes in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5.
I also support dropping the 3.5 MM1 Shadow Mastiff to +0 from its current +1.

I've always wondered why the Shadow Mastiff didn't get a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently while the Hellhound did.


Vultivor/Vorr Canomorph: LA +1
In addition to its reasonably solid roguelike profile, the Int penalty while painful, isn't crippling, especially in light of your other racial ability bonuses - you can easily afford to buy an 18, reduced to 14 after the racial penalty, which is still good enough for most rogues.
Plus, it makes for a surprisingly good noncaster component for both conventional combat gishes and sneakier hybrids ala Unseen Seer. Especially in conjunction with a Charisma based caster. Though, in that case, the RHD will hurt.

[Caelestion]

What are the chances that people 'suggesting' that the Shadow Mastiff be dropped in LA were also the ones voting for +0 in the first place?

[javcs]

What are the chances that people 'suggesting' that the Shadow Mastiff be dropped in LA were also the ones voting for +0 in the first place?

Slim, since 9 of the 12 posts between Shadow Mastiff and Shambling Mound are a continuation of the Shadow and Create Spawn, and similar abilities, and the effect on how to evaluate LAs for creatures with problematic abilities.
Of other 3 posts, which were about the Shadow Mastiff ... 1 said LA +1 with LA buyoff in play; 1 said LA +1 on the ground of stat buffs, bay, and Shadow Blend; 1 said LA +1 because of issues with Shadow Blend.
Paraphrased and summarized, of course.

And Inevitability originally said "+1 LA for now, though I think a +0 would be justifiable as well".

Shadow Mastiff is post 61 of The LA-assignment Thread III: Now in HD!


Admittedly, I suspect that many people, myself included, currently favoring dropping the Shadow Mastiff would have voted +0 at the time. With, IMO, room to make a possible case for a borderline -0 - no hands, explicit inability to speak, plus a fairly major (-6) hit to Intelligence. Plus, they are non-native Outsiders, meaning they need a True Resurrection.


Though there might have been some discussion of them elsewhere, as I vaguely recall having some sort of discussion around Bay, unless I'm thinking of a similar ability on a different monster, and the 300ft AoE with a short duration status effect that can only apply to a given subject once a day is not very useful inside structures and dungeons, since you're liable to hit groups of enemies you have no idea are even there, long before you can engage them and take advantage of the temporary status effect.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Shadow hound is overall slightly worse shadurakaul, so if shad deserves LA +0 it makes little sense to keep shadow hound at +0. Shad is shadow hound with a neat work around to the item slot issue.

[Remuko]

Same, and I also agree that the base shadow mastiff should be lowered to +0 as it is a strict downgrade from a shadow mastiff that can also turn human.

as usual, this. -0. +0. +1 and lower the normal Shadow Mastiff to +0

[Caelestion]

Two years ago, there was hardly any voting on the Shadow Mastiff, but the three or so people who did each agreed it was +1 LA. We should probably be wary of level creep, otherwise we end up falling into the same trap as WotC.

[No brains]

Two years ago, there was hardly any voting on the Shadow Mastiff, but the three or so people who did each agreed it was +1 LA. We should probably be wary of level creep, otherwise we end up falling into the same trap as WotC.

Do we need to worry about power/level creep now that there's a finite amount of 3.5/ Pathfinder material? Without the pressure of making new things, we could probably be honest about what seems good int comparison to other things.

[javcs]

Two years ago, there was hardly any voting on the Shadow Mastiff, but the three or so people who did each agreed it was +1 LA. We should probably be wary of level creep, otherwise we end up falling into the same trap as WotC.

On the one hand, that's true.
On the other, one of those three said +1 with LA buyoff.
Also, at the time, nobody really said anything about the downsides.
It's entirely possible that with discussion, and someone pointing out the downsides, the people who originally went with +1 could have changed their minds.


And yeah, in hindsight more people probably should have commented on the Shadow Mastiff, myself included.


But I can't give the Shadow Mastiff a +1.
I can barely justify give it a +0.

[Inevitability]

-0, +0, +1 is the clear preference among most. Shadow Mastiff will be lowered to +0, because it seems like onlyl one person wants it to stay at +1 and multiple others prefer +0.

[Inevitability]

Caryatid Column

From the makers of Chest That Murders You, Wall That Murders You, Floor That Murders You, and Air That Murders You, there's Marble Column That Murders you!

Caryatids are medium-sized constructs with 6 RHD (meaning subpar everything). They get +9 natural armor and hardness 8, making them quite tricky to kill (at least until you hit high levels and those 20 bonus HP fail to make up for the lack of constitution). In addition, any weapon (magical or not) that strikes a caryatid column has a chance to shatter and deal no damage, because Why Even Bother Not Using Spells At This Point.

Ability scores are all over the place: 20 strength, 16 dexterity, and then 6 intelligence and 1 wisdom and charisma. Immunity to ability damage and drain prevents the latter two from being a deadly weakness.

Another notable traits is the ability to turn into a featureless stone column up to 25 ft. tall and 2 ft. in diameter, which a creative player should be able to find some uses for. It's Extraordinary, strangely.

Finally, caryatids are bound to a magic weapon (default a +2 bastard sword), which they can stow into their body and which turns to stone if it leaves the column's hands. I'm assuming that this doesn't impact your WBL, but I'm also assuming that you can't just swap it out with another weapon of equal value (not as problematic as it sounds, given that the column can't actually sell it).

I like these monsters, but six construct HD are a big price to pay and the rewards aren't that great. -0 LA, but not completely unplayable.