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  1. - Top - End - #1351
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Yeah, -0 for the kill hound.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    If the doggie comes in at -0 LA, we're essentially saying that their racial perks are worth only 1 RHD (i.e. a baseline player race), which in my opinion is absolutely not true. LA +0.

  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think they make a serviceable +0.
    Last edited by Lapak; 2019-11-18 at 10:33 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Yeah, weird. I had kind of mentally added a "1 mouth = 1 hand" rule to mouthpicks, but it really doesn't have that limitation, does it? And Lords of Madness has an image of a mouthpick falchion, which is a two-handed weapon. Double weapons are much more of a stretch, though.
    Nah the mouth handle thing just goes in the middle of the double weapon so the double weapon is perpendicular to the body, easy peasy!

    Anyways with only 2 rhd and at 4 rhd getting a size increase plus having magical beast rhd this really isn't a bad package. I wouldn't mind playing as a death dog, just get yourself a slave/hireling to be your hands until you can get your own pair around level ~8. I am happy with +0 LA, this thing is already competitive as is. I can see doing a barbarian Fist of the Forest build being quite amusing, or maybe a totemist...

  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I can see a lot of more or less stupid builds being viable here.
    Besides the dual-mouthpick-direflail bit there is picking up superior unarmed strike for if you want to use bites as secondary physical attacks.
    Or just going swordsage and picking up shadow blade. getting dex to damage makes 2 attacks go a long way when you have a racial bonus.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    If the doggie comes in at -0 LA, we're essentially saying that their racial perks are worth only 1 RHD (i.e. a baseline player race), which in my opinion is absolutely not true. LA +0.
    I mean, I don't disagree that their racial perks are about those of a baseline player race, if that, (+4 total to stats in only-vaguely-helpful places and some mediocre natural attacks do not a PC make), but also -0 could mean that we're saying their racial perks are too weak to give up two of your levels, but too strong to give up zero levels, which is why we, to quote Inevitability, "technically recommend a LA of +0, but the resulting monster will probably be weaker than a comparable PC of the same ECL."

    -0 means it's too weak for ECL 2, not that it would be fine with a class level at ECL 1. I just happen to believe that second one as well, because it's a dog with aspirations and it has practically no redeeming features.

  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    If the doggie comes in at -0 LA, we're essentially saying that their racial perks are worth only 1 RHD (i.e. a baseline player race), which in my opinion is absolutely not true. LA +0.
    Well, as well as perks, I took drawbacks into account as well.

  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    -0 for the doggie

  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    -0 means it's too weak for ECL 2, not that it would be fine with a class level at ECL 1. I just happen to believe that second one as well, because it's a dog with aspirations and it has practically no redeeming features.
    Except of course..
    Fast movement.
    Natural Armor.
    Free trip.
    Darkvision.
    Scent.
    A total of +12 to your physical stats.

    The Dog makes for a badass swordsage. And would have a rather crazy AC at level 4.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  10. - Top - End - #1360
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    If the doggie comes in at -0 LA, we're essentially saying that their racial perks are worth only 1 RHD (i.e. a baseline player race), which in my opinion is absolutely not true. LA +0.
    Or a base race race with +1 LA.

    No vote from me.
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  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Death dog votes!

    -0: 4 votes
    +0: 8 votes

    +0 LA it is.


    As a sidenote, I'm now kicking myself for not making a 'hot dog' joke back when we covered the shapeshifting hell hound.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  12. - Top - End - #1362
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    You probably assumed it was made with some other kind of dog monster. And you were probably right.
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  13. - Top - End - #1363
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Demodand, Farastu


    Carceri, the oft-forgotten prison plane located between the Abyss and Hades, has some strange inhabitants. Let's have a look at them!

    All demodands share the ability to summon others of their kind (as fiends are wont to do), immunity to poison, outsider traits, and, ironically, continuous Freedom of Movement.

    Farastu are the smallest, least dangerous demodands. They have 11 outsider RHD, are medium-sized, and lack the wings of their more advanced kin. Additionally, the demodands possess DR 10/Good, acid immunity, cold and fire resistance 10, and SR 23, as well as +14 natural armor and a slightly above-average land speed of 40 ft. Their natural weapons are two 1d4 claws and a 1d6 bite.

    Farastu stats are fairly unimpressive, with +8 strength being the biggest boost they get. The other stats are all in the +2-6 range, with the exception of their -2 intelligence.

    However, it should be noted that with a single added HD, farastu receive a dramatic boost in power. They become Large, get additional strength and constitution, and deal more damage with their weapons to boot. Outsider HD aren't half bad on their own, and with the size change factored in I'd argue taking one more is worth the class level it eats up.

    Special abilities are middling. Improved Grab is improved grab, Adhesive Slime is interesting for giving a +8 grapple bonus and occasionally snatching a weapon, Scent has its moments, and 3/day Rage is a welcome buff.

    Furthermore, farastus can summon 1d4 others of their kind with a 30% chance of success. It's not the most reliable ability, but a handful of moderately tough meat shields comes in useful from time to time.

    Finally, the SLAs: at-will Detect Magic, Clairvoyance, Invisibility, and Tongues are noteworthy (at-will Fear less so), 3/day Fog Cloud and Ray of Enfeeblement are a waste of an action, 2/day Dispel Magic is underwhelming.

    Ultimately, the farastu makes for a reasonable grappler... but it's still quite a lot smaller and weaker than many at-level opponents. To make matters worse, it can't do all that much outside of grappling, other than raging and dealing reasonable damage. 12 RHD are a high price to pay, and the resulting creature is good enough that I'm comfortable assigning +0 (though maybe -0 is better?), but nothing beyond that.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  14. - Top - End - #1364
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    -0. A grappler is fine but it really needs that extra hd for large size and to stay relevant.

  15. - Top - End - #1365
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I'm thinking -0 here, though I'll admit it's closer to +0 than a lot of the others we give that to. Mostly because of that one extra RHD. Honestly? I might even be more tempted towards +0 if it were just normally 12HD and Large.
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  16. - Top - End - #1366
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Well they are CR 11, which is equal to their ECL if they get LA +0, though whether they're not unfocused enough to warrant that or even their CR is another question. SR 23 is nice when paired up with Boost Spell Resistance, a Daazix's Vest, and/or Resonating Resistance(though the last one is a bit hard to grab what with all those RHD), their version of Rage doesn't fatigue them, and honestly Ray of Enfeeblement isn't a totally crap SLA since immunity to it is likely still type-based and the CL's high enough for Quicken SLA.
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  17. - Top - End - #1367
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    -0, the picture is of a emaciated fish standing in its own excrement that just about sums up this monster...

  18. - Top - End - #1368
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    It's a good enough grappler, but grappling is not that nice a thing to be good at. The ability scores and SLAs are unimpressive. I just don't see a reason to play these, even if you wanted to play one of these conceptually. LA -0.
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  19. - Top - End - #1369
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think this is good enough to eke into +0, its like a barbarian with extra skills, and magical abilities. The atwill invisibility, clairvoyance, and tongue and freedom of movement gives a bit of oomph.

    The Clairvoyance at will as a spell like ability is a big effect if I remember how SLA work correctly. They are cast at standared actions right?
    Last edited by Lans; 2019-11-19 at 11:58 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #1370
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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  21. - Top - End - #1371
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I have an odd fondness for the Demodands...haven't used one as an encounter yet.

    Farastu

    • Medium Outsider (evil, extraplanar)
    • 11 RHD of the equally best kind.
    • Speed 40 ft: not bad.
    • +14 natural AC: solid.
    • 2 claws 1d4, bite 1d6: not great damage, but natural attacks can be great for the right build.
    • Adhesive slime: +8 bonus to grapple checks (much needed for a medium sized grappler), and also to disarm checks. Not half bad. Enemy weapons might also stick to you, which is a nice passive effect.
    • Improved grab: nice for any grappler. Again, would be nice if you were bigger, but you can still do a reasonable job of it. As I noted for the Darkweaver, there are methods to increase your size, but these are usually quite costly for non-Humanoid types.
    • Rage: as a low-level Barbarian, 3/day. Also, you're not fatigued afterwards.
    • Spell-like abilities: At will - detect magic, clairaudience/clairvoyance, fear, invisibility, tongues; 3/day - fog cloud, ray of enfeeblement; 2/day - dispel magic. CL 11. All low-ish level spells. Handy, but not amazing at ECL 11+. The scouting/recon opportunities with at will clairaudience/clairvoyance are pretty nice.
    • Summon demodand: standard action with a 30% chance of success. Nice if you can pull it off, but with a 70% failure rate, not worth an action in combat.
    • Demodand traits: continuous Su freedom of movement (no need for a ring then), poison immunity, outsider traits. The FoM is pretty sweet.
    • Acid immunity, resist cold 10, resist fire 10: handy, but not amazing.
    • DR 10/magic: may be occasionally useful against melee brute monsters and some summons, but honestly not great at your starting level. DR 10/good is much more relevant. The numbers aren't that high, but will apply to most weapon and natural attacks against you.
    • Scent: OK-ish.
    • SR 23: decent at your starting level, but doesn't scale with HD AFAIK.
    • Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +20, with a small hit to Int. Not bad.
    • Decent, but not amazing, racial skill list: you could actually be a decent "face-man" in terms of skills. +8 racial bonus to Climb.

    Generally (medium) humanoid in form, and should have no issues wielding weapons or objects. They can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be too much of an issue.

    IMHO, these guys compare pretty well against an 11th level Barbarian: not with the raw damage numbers, but they have other stuff going on that gives them a lot of versatility in and out of combat, which your typical Barbarian would struggle to match. In the context of this thread, I'm voting weak-ish LA +1, but I could be sold on +0. After some thought, revising my vote to LA +0.

  22. - Top - End - #1372
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I am leaning towards LA +0 on the Farastu. Not much going for it besides the typing, raw stats, grapple bonuses and FOM; most of the abilities are parlor tricks by ECL 11. However, that typing and the stat bonuses cure a lot of ills; not thrilled by the Int hit, but the chassis alone is something to reckon with when compared to an non-initiator martial. Not something I think would be interesting to play, since grappling is terrible unless you plan to run around in an AMF in most fights, but there is enough there to grow in a useful direction by the end of pre-Epic. A pity the rage does not stack for effect with Barbarian levels, like the Flame Draconian.

  23. - Top - End - #1373
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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Wait, was DR updated to 10/good, or is it 10/magic?

  24. - Top - End - #1374
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Wait, was DR updated to 10/good, or is it 10/magic?
    10/Good, so no overcoming DR with natural weapons, but much more useful defensively.

  25. - Top - End - #1375
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I'm not satisfied with 11 or 12 levels spent for... that. -0.

    Also, I've got my copy of Faces of Evil: The Fiends out on loan to a friend right now so I can't check, but the demodands are totally the ghereleths from Planescape, right?
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  26. - Top - End - #1376
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    That's right. They picked up the "clearly not an angel or demon" name for 2nd Edition, like the other outsiders.

  27. - Top - End - #1377
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    TLDR Agreeing with Thurbane at a conservative +1 .

    Also since talking about the next thread title the vampire one. And casting a vote for weapons of legacy as I want to see monster of legacy rated, cause I like preemptive voting too.

    Compare to a gestalt 11 warlock/barbarian: same baseline hit points 3 more skillpoints per level which is kinda awesome.

    Warlock gets, detect magic, 7 invocations, and eldritch blast: Farastu gets detect magic, 4 at will spell likes, adhesive slime, and freedom of movement, clear win warlock/barbarian

    Barbarian gets 1 rage 3/day, 2 greater rage, 3 uncanny dodge, 4 illiteracy, 5 trap sense, 6 fast movement, 7dr 2, Farastu gets 1 rage 3/day, 2 tireless rage like ability, 5 higher save from outsider and ability scores an always there +2 to fortitude, +4 to reflex and +1 to will, 6 moves as fast, 7 clearly superior DR. This part is kinda a wash but I lean towards the Fraratsu due to the higher stats, natural armor.

    The gestalt gets a race: I'm willing to throw the Feratsu's scent, energy resistances and immunities and natural attacks against the players handbook races or the Aaasimar.

    So in all its a better barbarian than the barbarian and a worse warlock, has some maybe working abilities in a ranged combat in its limited per day spell likes. Improved grab+adhesive slime + freedom of movement isn't poor synergy. When it levels it either takes a hit die and goes large and completely without raging outstrips the barbarian forever in offense, or gains a greatsword and armor and outstrips the barbarian forever in defense. I can see someone saying that a barbarian/poor warlock isn't worth LA and is just a higher tier. I don't though.

  28. - Top - End - #1378
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    -0, the picture is of a emaciated fish standing in its own excrement that just about sums up this monster...
    Yeah, I feel like having to play as a rotting, slimy fish-person that's melting into a pile of poop is almost enough of a drawback to merit an LA reduction before considering its mechanics.

    Of course, that would just be incentivizing it, so... blah!

    I think I'll vote conservatively again and give the farastu LA +0: I doubt it'll do great in most games, but at least Outsider type and the miscellaneous number bonuses don't hurt anything. Plus, it's got a decent variety of useful things it can do, so I think LA +0 is probably okay.
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  29. - Top - End - #1379
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think I'll go for LA +0, though if you take the 12 RHD and become Large, I could see that tipping comfortably into +1 instead.

  30. - Top - End - #1380
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Compare to a gestalt 11 warlock/barbarian [...]
    That's a terrible point of comparison. Gestalt is so different, and opens up so many variables, that you flat-out can't use it as a reference point in this thread. Why aren't you just comparing to a barbarian/warlock? Why aren't you using PrCs? If it has to be single-classed, why aren't you comparing to a psychic warrior or swordsage or totemist or a combination of these?

    Why is your conclusion that this monster, on comparison to a tier 3 gestalt, coming up worse, needs LA +1? That's just contrary to the guidelines ("rules") of the thread. We compare monsters to an appropriate balance point in tier 1-4; if you pick a tier 3 (which the barbarian//warlock is, certainly at ECL 12+), you have to assign LA with that comparison in mind. You can't then go back and say "well there's a tier 4 class in my benchmark, so it's a tier 4 comparison", when the overall benchmark is clearly not tier 4.

    Yes, everyone can choose their own balance point and such, but there are limits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I think I'll go for LA +0, though if you take the 12 RHD and become Large, I could see that tipping comfortably into +1 instead.
    Don't forget that the LA cost comes on top of the RHD cost. I don't think Large size is worth two levels, especially if one of them gives no base attack/saves/skills. At that point, you're so much better off just taking two levels in a psionic class and using expansion, or a dorje of expansion, or something like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
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