The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Zecrin]

Epic is a strange and terrifying creature. I'm hesitant to push anything far across that line. But this thing is supposed to be CR 25, meaning it's technically supposed to be there already. Those are some really nice SLAs though, and the sorcerer levels, while lacking raw power for this level, can be devastating with the right spell selection.

And of course, summoning a pair of Balors each day without failure would probably be worth an extra point of LA all on its own.

Hmm... +2 doesn't feel like enough, but +3 feels like too much.

I think the klurichir was changed to CR 17 in one of the Fiendish Codices. I don't really agree with this choice, but there you have it.

Also, if you don't mind my asking, why does +3 feel like too much?

[danielxcutter]

I think the klurichir was changed to CR 17 in one of the Fiendish Codices. I don't really agree with this choice, but there you have it.

Also, if you don't mind my asking, why does +3 feel like too much?

Sure you haven't confused it with the Molydeus from FCI? That's the only comparable non-unique demon that comes close IMO.

[Zecrin]

Sure you haven't confused it with the Molydeus from FCI? That's the only comparable non-unique demon that comes close IMO.

Page 157 of the Fiendish Codex states:

Note that demons were revised substantially in the 3.5 revision; as a result, a few of the
demons from earlier books (abyssal ravager, alkilith, kelvezu, klurichir, maurezhi, myrmyxicus, wastrilith, and zovvut), although still quite usable in the current rules, have adjustments to their CRs. The CRs indicated for these demons here are official changes to more accurately reflect the challenge they provide in high-level play.

It then goes on to revise the klurichir's CR from 25 to 17, without changing any of its statistics or its ability to summon two CR 20 monsters.

[danielxcutter]

It then goes on to revise the klurichir's CR from 25 to 17, without changing any of its statistics or its ability to summon two CR 20 monsters.

Oh, does it? I better check then, and I don't suppose that could have been a typo? I mean, even without the balor summoning it seems a bit powerful for just CR 17...

[Lans]

Balors and Pit Fiends were buffed considerably between 3.0 and 3.5

[Inevitability]

Balors and Pit Fiends were buffed considerably between 3.0 and 3.5

Well, then reducing its CR by eight points makes even less sense, doesn't it?

[RedWarlock]

It could be for the fact that this guy might not GET the chance to summon his balor buddies, or perhaps how commonly-prepped high-level casters will be able to eliminate summoned minions easier than a base monster with dismissal effects?

[danielxcutter]

It could be for the fact that this guy might not GET the chance to summon his balor buddies, or perhaps how commonly-prepped high-level casters will be able to eliminate summoned minions easier than a base monster with dismissal effects?

You think WotC was that self-aware? And even if they were, the average table is not nearly as optimized as one might think; certainly not to the point where "rocket tag" becomes rather more literal than usual.

[Sutr]

+3 for the demon, easily playing in the free wish economy, summoning 2 balors is its equivalent of an epic spell. With spell likes and casting seems comparable enough to a 20th level sorcerer. Has more skill points base attack saves and always polymorphed and some good at wills.

[Thurbane]

I don't have time for a detailed breakdown right now, but my vote is a tentative LA +2.

[Inevitability]

Vooootes:

+2: 2 votes
+3: 2 votes
+4: 1 vote

Even when considering the '+2 or +3' vote, +3 wins out barely. LA will be updated.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Vooootes:

+2: 2 votes
+3: 2 votes
+4: 1 vote

Even when considering the '+2 or +3' vote, +3 wins out barely. LA will be updated.

Not that it matters, because +3 is representative either way, but I did vote for +1. I'll make it a bit more clear on the next vote.

[Inevitability]

Not that it matters, because +3 is representative either way, but I did vote for +1. I'll make it a bit more clear on the next vote.

Oh dang, I missed that. That's what I get for updating the thread late in the evening, I guess.

[vaticideprophet]

Long-time lurker, just finished bingeing several threads I hadn't read live and was surprised to realize we're not at 1500 posts yet on this one. I like the vampire pun idea for the next thread's title; reading multiple threads in a few days makes it clear how long people have been pushing for (S, V, M), and it's a good one (I prefer it in that order), but the joke about the vampire's LA works pretty well for the eighth thread, and this thread got some very bitter/sore-loser messages early on about the joke used for its title that I'm not sure should be encouraged.

[Inevitability]

Maurezhi

You've seen vampiric demons, now get ready for ghoulish demons!

5 outsider RHD, medium size, reasonable stats (+2 to +6 in most places, with the exception of -2 intelligence). A humanoid shape, with two claws and a bite (all three of which can inflict paralysis for several minutes). DR 10/good and SR 19 are useful defensive characteristics, especially when combined with the general demonic energy resistances.

Special qualities are interesting. Like barghests, maurezhis can devour their victims, which both destroys their soul and strengthens the fiend. Barghests got an asterisk slapped onto them (with the suggestion to just treat this as an alternative form of advancement), so I will do the same here.

Additionally, maurezhis get Pounce, the aforementioned paralysis, the ability to summon either ghouls or dretches, and the ability to assume the form of creatures they have eaten (niche, but useful). They also have a number of SLAs, most notable of which are at-will animate death, at-will hold person, at-will invisibility, and 3/day Fear.

It seems to me that those fiends are comparable to an at-level necromancer cleric, but with less concern for material components, better melee, and less casting flexibility. A LA of +2* is more than fair.

[Thurbane]

• Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
• 5 RHD of the equally best type
• 40 ft speed: decent.
• +3 natural AC: not that impressive.
• Bite 1d6, 2 claws 1d4: decent.
• Consume: interesting, but problematic in terms of progression for a PC. You get some interesting goodies for advancing by HD, but class levels are nearly always better. How did we rate the Bhargest ability again?
• Paralysis: save-or-lose rider effect
• Pounce: great for any melee type. No need for a 1-level Barbarian dip.
• SLAs: Always active - deathwatch; at will - animate dead, blur, cause fear, chill touch, death knell, hold person, invisibility; 3/day - fear. Pretty decent set of SLAs for low-mid level, especially at will animate dead. CL = HD is a nice touch.
• Assume shape: at will alter disguise self, but only of humanoid creatures it has consumed. Decent for infiltration, and utility (eat some humanoids with fly, sim and burrow speeds). Errata'd.
• DR 10/good: decent defense.
• Outsider traits: meh.
• SR 19: decent at starting level. Scales if you advance by HD.
• Summon creatures: not a great summon list, but at least you can get 1d4 ghouls with 100% chance of success.
• Tanar’ri traits: 100 ft telepathy, immune to electricity and poison, resist cold 20 and fire 20.
• Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +16. Not bad, although the hit to Int is bothersome.
• Decent racial skill list, focused on social skills, stealth and perception. +8 racial bonus on Jump checks, and +12 on Disguise when using assume shape.

Medium humanoid in shape, and can speak (in alternate form at least, natural form is less clear), so should be no issues with gear or class progression.

You get some pretty decent stuff for 5RHD. At will animate dead where the CL scales with your HD is pretty sweet. The weird HD progression is hard to rate, but so long as you refrain from eating any humanoids with more HD than half your HD, you can avoid this entirely. The only real drawbacks are the RHD, and a small hit to Int. You could build a pretty impressive melee type with this chassis.

I'm going LA +2* for now. The asterisk is mainly there for the funky RHD progression. Happy to reconsider, though. With ECL 7, you can get 8th level maneuvers. You might be able to shoe-horn yourself into a Suel Arcanamach or similar build too.

From a DM persective, these guys would make an interesting recurring enemy, with their ability to impersonate people they've eaten. CR 9 for 5 HD seems rough, though. Maybe an advanced specimen.

[Caelestion]

That's a lot of at-will abilities, with good stat modifiers and excellent resistances as well. I agree with LA +2*.

[Efrate]

I think these are a fine +2*. At will animate dead gets you from 1 to 2. Do they heal via negative energy or regular positive, or both?

[Debatra]

It's a little all over the place. Lots of paralysis, a good chunk of minion-mancy, good stealth and perception (and especially infiltration).

Also worth noting that its Assume Shape got errata'd to function as Disguise Self instead of Alter Self, so no pillaging movement types or natural armor.

I'm gonna say +2* since we're calling the advancement an asterisk.

I think these are a fine +2*. At will animate dead gets you from 1 to 2. Do they heal via negative energy or regular positive, or both?

They're Outsiders, not Undead, and nothing says they function any different.

[Mike Miller]

I say at least +1. I think I shall vote +2*

[Falontani]

Do they heal via negative energy or regular positive, or both?

They're Outsiders, not Undead, and nothing says they function any different.

Very true, however if it fits your story a dm could toss Tomb Tainted Soul on as a bonus feat or just one taken.

[liquidformat]

So I would like to take a moment to look at Consume as it is rather interesting. Maurezhi can only advance through Consuming the corpse of a monster it killed within 10 minutes of the creature's death. By doing so it gains an HD, +1 STR, INT, and BAB, 8+int skill points class skills are determined by the creature it just ate, its saves are based on its HD, and Maurezhi gains a feat every 4 levels instead of 3; finally based on its HD its DR and SR advance.

So based on the Consume ability and the stat block by RAW the Maurezhi can only advance by the consume ability, can never have more than 20 hd, can advance in any class it wants but will always have full BAB and 8+int for any class it chooses, and furthermore its class skills will always be determined by the creature it ate causing it to advance rather than the class it just took. So by 20 HD the Maurezhi will have a +13 int mod and +19 Str mod. Over all I think that is a pretty cool ability but I am not entirely sure if it is deserving of an asterisk, instead I think it should be handled like the Pixie or Redcap where we have a rating with and without Consume.

With Consume I am comfortable with +4 LA; at that level adjustment it should be rare to have encounters with enemies that have half the Maurezhi's HD. Without Consume I think +2 LA seems reasonable for its abilities.

[Blue Jay]

So based on the Consume ability and the stat block by RAW the Maurezhi can only advance by the consume ability, can never have more than 20 hd, can advance in any class it wants but will always have full BAB and 8+int for any class it chooses, and furthermore its class skills will always be determined by the creature it ate causing it to advance rather than the class it just took. So by 20 HD the Maurezhi will have a +13 int mod and +19 Str mod. Over all I think that is a pretty cool ability but I am not entirely sure if it is deserving of an asterisk, instead I think it should be handled like the Pixie or Redcap where we have a rating with and without Consume.

The bolded part doesn't follow for me. The text says a maurezhi gets 1 Hit Die per corpse consumed, not "1 level." Class levels grant Hit Dice, but Hit Dice don't grant class levels, so I don't see any reason to believe that the Hit Dice would come with class features or anything.

Also, I guess the extra feats it gets at every 4 levels are in additional to the normal bonus feats you get for advancing in level?

To me, this kind of advancement just isn't compatible with a PC, so it should probably be assumed that a maurezhi PC doesn't have that. So, obvious asterisk. But, since we're supposed to remove the problematic ability before making an LA assignment, I assume we also ignore the text that restricts it from advancing by means other than Consume (since that's part of the Consume text)?

Also, the SRD says that SLAs are assumed to be sorcerer/wizard equivalents, unless the spells they mimic aren't sorc/wiz spells. The maurezhi's CL equals its Hit Dice, but 5 isn't high enough to cast the sorc/wiz version of animate dead or fear. Are you supposed to revert to a spell list where CL is high enough (cleric for animate dead and bard for fear)? Or do we just kind of ignore minimum CL issues like that?

I guess I agree with LA +2* for the maurezhi.

[liquidformat]

The bolded part doesn't follow for me. The text says a maurezhi gets 1 Hit Die per corpse consumed, not "1 level." Class levels grant Hit Dice, but Hit Dice don't grant class levels, so I don't see any reason to believe that the Hit Dice would come with class features or anything.

Also, I guess the extra feats it gets at every 4 levels are in additional to the normal bonus feats you get for advancing in level?

To me, this kind of advancement just isn't compatible with a PC, so it should probably be assumed that a maurezhi PC doesn't have that. So, obvious asterisk. But, since we're supposed to remove the problematic ability before making an LA assignment, I assume we also ignore the text that restricts it from advancing by means other than Consume (since that's part of the Consume text)?

Also, the SRD says that SLAs are assumed to be sorcerer/wizard equivalents, unless the spells they mimic aren't sorc/wiz spells. The maurezhi's CL equals its Hit Dice, but 5 isn't high enough to cast the sorc/wiz version of animate dead or fear. Are you supposed to revert to a spell list where CL is high enough (cleric for animate dead and bard for fear)? Or do we just kind of ignore minimum CL issues like that?

I guess I agree with LA +2* for the maurezhi.

So there are a few parts that make me question whether the Consume ability makes you gain RHD or any class of the creatures choosing.
First off if it was simply gaining outsider RHD there is no added benefit in mentioning gaining BAB each time.
Second it is ambigous about saves saying simply "Its base saving throw bonuses improve according to its new Hit Dice" which is also strange if it is just gaining outsider RHD
Third, nowhere does it mention RHD, granted for this one I need to read over FF and see how the book in general talks about RHD.
A good example of this is Savage species where they use monster hit dice and hit dice when discussing abilities that increase only by RHD vs any HD.
Four, with a RAW reading of Consume I would say they gain feats every four levels instead of every three.
Finally, It is questionable if maurezhi gain more hp as they gain HD since that seems to be omitted from the consume ability.

[Blue Jay]

So there are a few parts that make me question whether the Consume ability makes you gain RHD or any class of the creatures choosing.
First off if it was simply gaining outsider RHD there is no added benefit in mentioning gaining BAB each time.
Second it is ambigous about saves saying simply "Its base saving throw bonuses improve according to its new Hit Dice" which is also strange if it is just gaining outsider RHD
Third, nowhere does it mention RHD, granted for this one I need to read over FF and see how the book in general talks about RHD.
A good example of this is Savage species where they use monster hit dice and hit dice when discussing abilities that increase only by RHD vs any HD.
Four, with a RAW reading of Consume I would say they gain feats every four levels instead of every three.
Finally, It is questionable if maurezhi gain more hp as they gain HD since that seems to be omitted from the consume ability.

Ah, I see. It's inconsistent in the way it represents the specifics, so a straightforward reading leaves you with some details unspecified and some overspecified.

I suspect it has to do with the 3.5 revision being in progress during publication. So, the writers weren't entirely clear what they did and didn't have to specify.

I think I would personally interpret it as just granting Outsider RHD, with the unique skill list and the extra stuff from the tables. And I'd interpret the extra feat / 4 HD as an addition to the normal bonus feats.

Of course, I would probably ignore this silly advancement thing anyway as a DM, and just advance the monster however I wanted anyway. And, for a PC, I would just ignore Consume, because it's just too weird. So, I suppose that means my opinions on how it works mechanically are pretty much irrelevant.

[Sutr]

+3 with or without an asterisk. Kinda tempted to say +2 as it is unable to advance any other way a DM is likely to meter its available kills to match the party and it will end up rather anemic. It might not be able to focus its skills, might not allow retroactive intelligence increases. A Dm might give it less feats due to the wording. It should up the DC of that paralysis though. +3* as without it will find something cool to advance in.

I think the 1 feat for 4 hit die was due to the weird way monsters gained feats in 3.0. I'd rule it back to the standard 1/3 hit die, and call it a glitch in the update.

[liquidformat]

+3 with or without an asterisk. Kinda tempted to say +2 as it is unable to advance any other way a DM is likely to meter its available kills to match the party and it will end up rather anemic. It might not be able to focus its skills, might not allow retroactive intelligence increases. A Dm might give it less feats due to the wording. It should up the DC of that paralysis though. +3* as without it will find something cool to advance in.

I think the 1 feat for 4 hit die was due to the weird way monsters gained feats in 3.0. I'd rule it back to the standard 1/3 hit die, and call it a glitch in the update.

if we dump consume altogether as an asterisk would connotate I am not seeing what would make this a +3 LA...

[Sutr]

I read Thurbane's analysis everything it gets adds up to an eighth level character to me. I see 9 at will or always on spell like abilities, 4 are really good, invisibility, animate dead, assume shape, blur. Telepathy is also cool should be able to rogue better than its skill points imply if it takes a feat. Built in paralysis/pounce/DR means that it competes in melee especially with animate dead to back up its mediocre damage. . .

[Inevitability]

Overwhelming majority for +2, LA will be updated to reflect this.

Please don't post in this thread any more! New thread is here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-For-Vampirism.