Stats for Autism

[Renrik]

As an autistic gamer (diagnosed with Asperger's disorder since the fourth grade, playing D&D since the 6th grade), I have been wondering what the D&D stats for autism would be.

For clarification and to reduce confusion as to what autism is, I will explain: Autism, simply put, is a genetic pervasive developmental disorder characterized by high intellect, narrow and intense areas of focus, unusual or oversensitive reactions to certain stimulus, and poor social skills (inability to read social cues, akwardness in conversations, fixation on cetain topics, or, in more severe cases the lack of the ability to speak altogether, inability to read body language), and, in many cases, unusual coping behaviors (flapping of hands, massaging of scalp, etc.)

It is split into several different disorders, but I'm basically going for Asperger's Disorder, a form of high-functioning, mild autism, and classical Autism, in which the person in question is often completely withdrawn into their own world. Hell, just for kicks, let's figure out stats for savants (very high-functiong, extremely rare autistics.)

I'm thinking, probably a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to charisma, to start with. Perhaps also a bonus to a single chosen skill (a knowledge, perform, craft, or profession skill), with a possible (larger) penalty on another skill (or two) that the autistic character sees as "irrelevant", to keep it balanced. Penalties (and bonuses?) get larger for full autism and smaller for Aspergers. Savants would have something else entirely going on- huge bonus to intelligence.

[Nerd-o-rama]

For things like mental disorders, I'd tend to just allocate stats in a manner that reflects them, rather than coming up with specific templates, flaws, or feats. For things like high-functioning autism, anyway. Schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, and the like would probably just be role-played.

A "typical" high-functioning autistic would have high intelligence and lower charisma, or at least no ranks in most social skills. Possibly lower wisdom, as that covers perceptive abilities including Sense Motive, but Wisdom is such an ill-defined trait you could argue either way. The Absent-Minded feat (bonus to Knowledge checks, penalty to spot and listen) might be appropriate

I'm against homebrewing rules unless necessary, just in general.

EDIT: Curses, and this was the thread I chose to respond to.

[SurlySeraph]

This has come up a couple times before, here and here for example. The topic tends to degenerate into people just insisting that all of the other posters don't understand what autism is like.

[Xuincherguixe]

double post

[Xuincherguixe]

There was something like that on here somewhere. Me I'd stay away from stating anything like this. Something about it seems a bit inappropriate.

Other game systems maybe not so much. Mind you the cynic in me is telling me to come up with a random encounter table with such entries as "random passerby starts yelling at you for reasons you neither understand nor passerby seems willing to explain." or "Someone tells you something you assume is important, but you can't understand thanks to being unable to filter that from the background of the marketplace. If player somehow manages to communicate, it turns out that it really wasn't and they were just wasting your time."

Misanthropic encounter tables for the win.

The topic tends to degenerate into people just insisting that all of the other posters don't understand what autism is like.

That's not surprising. Even the experts can't even agree on what it is. But I'm not going to get in anyone's face because they have the wrong idea. I get in peoples face for much different reasons ^_^ (and also not here.)

[Mephisto]

I'm reminded of the thread in which somebody wanted to make rules for a female character's menstrual cycle, and how it would influence her stats. Point is, you don't need rules for every possible thing. Roleplay it out, maybe take a few traits from UA like this. Get the DM to work with you for circumstance modifiers or whatever.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Autism is too varied a condition...
High Functioning autistics can be almost indistinguishible from non-autistics, others, Low Functioning autistics can be nearly incapable of basic human interactions.


Basically, there is such a wide range of traits to include here, stats are to much on a case by case basis...this would be something to handle with your own character.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Double posted threads merged.

[Draz74]

I'm no expert on the subject, but from what little I've experienced about autism, it seems like it would be better to put (large) bonuses and penalties on individual skills rather than on the Intelligence and other scores themselves. (With the possible exception of extreme savants.)

The autistic boy I know best (who was, admittedly, not high-functioning like you're asking about) didn't seem to have any lack of Charisma. He had quite a forceful personality. But of course autism would put a large penalty on Diplomacy and Gather Information, and maybe Bluff and Perform and so on as well.

On the other hand, an overall Intelligence boost doesn't seem appropriate; if anything it seems like autistic people would get a smaller number of skill points than other characters. (Bonuses on specific Intelligence-based skills, however, would be perfectly appropriate. In the case of savants, these could even be huge bonuses like +10.)

Are motor skills normally impaired in autistic people? The boy I mentioned earlier didn't seem to move about easily, but he was quite strong for his build. I don't know how representative he is, but if I were judging on him, I would say -4 Dexterity, +2 Strength could be part of the template.

[Wooter]

As an aspie myself, I would suggest a bonus to Spot and Listen checks, but a penalty to Bluff and Sense Motive.

[Xuincherguixe]

As an aspie myself, I would suggest a bonus to Spot and Listen checks, but a penalty to Bluff and Sense Motive.

And yet an argument can be made the other way around too. Penalty to spot and listen when there's a lot of things happening. Bonus to bluff because they might have a very blank expression, and sense motive because we're paying more attention and thus more likely to notice that something is fake.


Mental Conditions are hard to come up with stats for. The Autistic Spectrum probably being the hardest.

[Wooter]

That is true. It's very hard to describe to someone who doesn't have it.

I would just role play it, and forget about the numbers.

[Dode]

Very high int score, very low cha score.

Roleplay the rest.

[Icewalker]

You can do it simply by stats and roleplaying, I think that could be the easiest solution.

For a savant though, it could be an interesting twist to pick one int-based skill, probably a knowledge, and basically have them always succeed. This might not work very well for PCs, but it could be an interesting touch for a DMC or major NPC.

[Dode]

Is it wrong that I immediently thought "Rain Man-Truenamer" from that?

[Bender]

I have a character loosely based on autism. I don't know enough about it and I also didn't even put it in the background, because he doesn't have to be autist. He's somewhat based on rainman and such.
It was point buy, so I just put everything in intelligence and kept cha and wis very low, the wisdom reflects his lack of common sense. I see no reason for any physical stats to be special. I put almost all skill ranks in knowledge skills, since he only likes reading and studying. He's a specialist wizard abjurer, because he is paranoid and illusion and enchantment are forbidden to reflect that his mind works differently and he doesn't understand the mind of others (and the other way around, so iron will). He's going for loremaster.

All in all: the numbers are nothing special for the average wizard, the rest is roleplaying. It is one specific character and doesn't reflect autism in general. I've known autists that were more social than the average boy and I wouldn't even have known if someone hadn't told me.

I don't think a template is necessary or appropriate, since there are huge differences and it can easily be done with fluff, maybe an appropriate flaw and extra feat if your DM allows that.

[TheOOB]

As mentioned by others, autism is best represented by role play and stat allocation. Characters already get penalties for low stats in some areas, there is no real reason to penalize them more.

Heres a trait I just whipped up for savant characters, who are really good at one skill, but poor at others.

Savant
You are naturally gifted in a certain field, but poor in most others.

Benefit
Choose a single skill, you gain a +5 bonus on skill checks with that skill

Drawback
You take a -2 penalty on all skill and ability checks except with your choosen skill

Roleplaying Ideas
A character with this trait may be very proud of their competence in their specialized field, and they might also be ashamed of their general incompetence in other fields.

A +5 bonus is fairly significant, especially if you have a good stat mod and full ranks, even more so if you throw skill focus in the mix. A -2 to all skill and ability checks is harsh, especially if you have poor stats, but it is not impossible to overcome.

[Xuincherguixe]

Hardly a day goes by on the Asperger livejournal community without rainman coming up, followed by "we're not like that". Me I haven't seen it so I can't comment, but being that it's Hollywood I'd err on the side of "totally got it wrong".

L from Deathnote is pretty much textbook Asperger's if you're looking for a model (weather or not his creator was aware of it). But then, so is every second anime character.


I'm also not so sure if Charisma penalties are in order, a lot of us certainly have pretty strong personalities. A penalty to social skills is probably in order. Charisma penalties would make it hard to be a Charisma linked spell caster. Though I suppose that fits into the dealing with adversity we all have to face :P

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Draz74's post, I don't think autism really has an effect on physical strength or dexterity (admittedly, it's odd because my balance isn't too great, but my manual dexterity overall is quite good). I'd say an Intelligence boost and a Wisdom penalty or boosts and penalties to certain skills (I guess a +2 to knowledge checks would be suitable for high functioning autists, with pnalties to spot and listen checks, or possibly some social skills).

[Benejeseret]

I would fall on the side of not templating or modding, but rather choosing appropriate stats (I am not a fan of pointbuy so rolling a low number works out).

I would say take a low charisma. I see the charisma attribute as an AVERAGE of all social aptitudes/graces, attractiveness, strength of personality, and personality quirks both pleasing and annoying. Unlike the other stats it is more than an internal description, it is a reflection as to how the world reacts to you.

So having a low charisma does not mean a lack of strong personality. You could even be charming and have low charima so long as other social skills/quirks/looks balance out to a low overall score. Perhaps that strong personality is overbearing, perhaps it averages out to a low stat due to other social lackings, perhaps the intense focus makes some NPC's uncomfortable - however you play it I see low charisma as the answer.

EDIT: And for those who want to, in turn take a high INT (I would even say high INT and WIS). However, again, not as a template +/-ing stats because any human condition is part of the human spectrum and so does not fall outside that range ((ie. no 20 int/wis as a lvl 1 human char)).

[Thinker]

I have a friend who has this devastating syndrome. He wanted much the same thing as you and so this is what we came up with:

Aspergers is an inherited template with an LA of +0.

• +2 intelligence, -4 charisma: Aspies are smart, but awkward in social situations.
• +2 racial bonus on spot checks. Aspies frequently see things others do not.
• -2 penalty on sense motive. Aspies are easily tricked.
• In combat with more than one creature, treated as fascinated except to a specific creature (chosen at beginning of each round).
• -2 penalty on intelligence, wisdom, and charisma ability checks.
• +2 on any one knowledge skill.
• -2 penalty to initiative.
• Bonus Feat: may choose a bonus feat from the following list at level 1: Any of the +2/+2 skill feats or skill focus.
• Favored Class: None. A multiclassing aspie always takes a penalty for multiclassing.

[RMS Oceanic]

Being an Aspie/Person with Austism - We're not quite sure, I'm borderling - I came up with a template that reflects my own experiences with myself and others with Autism, so apologies if it feels like it's patronising:

- +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha - People with Autism can have a greater ability to think logically, but are prone to not noticing the world around them, and can be awkward in social situations.
- Any nonchaotic - People with autism are unlikely to act on impulse. They prefer routine, sometimes rigidly.
- A person with Autism selects a number of skills equal to 2 + Int Modifier from Use Magic Device, any Knowledge, Profession, Craft and/or Perform skill. These skills are always class skills, regardless of class. They also gain a +1 bonus on these skill checks, and can use them untrained.
- -2 to bluff - People with Autism have difficulty in understanding that people know different things than they do. This subconscious belief that the person they're trying to lie to already knows the truth makes them bad liars.
- -2 to Sense Motive - People with Autism have the tendency to believe what they're told.

How does that look?

[Kaelaroth]

You've all got to remember, this is for a DnD character. So, although you're stats are being fairly truthful to real life, you have to make it good enough so that Renrik gets bored of playing a bad character.

So, Maybe:

+2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom,
-3 penalty to Bluff, Gather Information and Sense Motive checks,
+4 bonus on any two selected Knowledge, Craft or Perform checks,
Inherent Magicka: Autistic characters gain a +1 caster level bonus to abjuration, divination and conjuration spells,
Hazy Mind: Autistic characters are particularly vulnerable to illusion and enchantment spells, they take a -1 penalty to resist them,
Dulled Magicka: Autistic characters have a -1 caster level check imposed on illusion and enchantment checks,
Bonus Language: Regardless of race or intelligence, Autistic characters always know one extra language than normal.
Favoured Class: Wizard

[AKA_Bait]

I must chime in on the side of representing this in roleplay and in stat and skill allocations rather than as a template. My brother has Autisim and even within his classes the degree and effects of the syndrome vary so widely that any given template would not suffice. I'll note that his class and school are picked to be within a specific range of function and capability (for example none of them are violent, as some folks with Autism are). I have never been tested myself but from the several years of personal research into the disorder I recognize that I share many of the key characteristcs of an Aspie. The range is simply too big and the specific disorders themselves too blurred, even at the level of diagnosis, to have a standard template.

Besides, you don't need a template for this and you are probably better off without one. Stat and Skill allocation should be more than sufficent to create the mechanical aspects of what you want. RP can handle the rest.

One thing for the OP, Autism may or may not be genetic, the debate is still open. Most likley, imho, it is like many genetic diseases in that has a genetic predisposition and an environmental trigger (such as Gluten if you buy those studies) which can trigger in varying degrees. There is some interesting research out there on possible environmental triggers and I've found that some of the suggested therapies along those lines have been helpful for my brother and correcting my own behaviors.

Not trying to say, 'you don't know what Autism is', because obviously you do, just pointing that out in case you are interested.

[Benejeseret]

Having thought it over some more I will add some further thoughts.

DnD already has a way to deal with this aspect of a character and I believe most have avoided it due to 1) dislike of the mechanic from UA or 2) political correctness.

It is a flaw. There, it has been said, and I applogies to those who might feel slight offence, but it is in a medical sense. I do not have autism nor do close relatives, but I have a physical syndrome (CMT1A) and have been thinking of writing it into DnD as well.

As a flaw it does not need 'balance' of higher intelligence or wisdom. Many autistic patients have learning disorders and DnD INT governing learning spells and learning skills is not congruent to get an increase. Some autism patients do indeed have high intelligence, but this is that they have high intelligence AND autism, not cause and effect from autism.

As a flaw I would see it something like this:


Autism: -2 to all rolls involving social skill checks

or

Autism: -1 to all social skill roles and -1 to all knowledge based rolls

Makes it general and simple to model.


Then, as a flaw it grants you a free feat. This could be a skill focus (____) to represent some individuals intense focus on particular skills. It could grant others extra rages per day for autistic barbarians (I have met a few autistic biters and scratchers). This will allow for a broader spectrum of human conditions to be represented as every patients can have unique ways to express their condition.

[Dr. Weasel]

Stuff

And with this the thread degrades into a flame war.


...any minute now...

[captain_decadence]

Not really, I think if try we can keep this entire thread civilized.

I agree that Autism (and Aspberger's, a completely different diagnosis than Autism, though they are related) should not be a template. Roleplay it people. Put your stats how you think they should be and put your skills how they shoudl be done. Not everything requires crunch, somethings need fluff.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Mental Disorders in D&D and You: A Guide By Someone Who Has a Clue What They're Actually Talking About!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=880483

^---Before anyone in this thread does anything else, READ THIS THREAD by Callista. It's handeh. It also covers exactly what the OP is asking for (and so much more) quite thoroughly.

No need for a flame war. Linked thread wins this thread =P

[tainsouvra]

Renrik,

I do not wish to discount your personal experiences, but there are some things I would like to clarify both for the thread and for any readers who may be approaching this topic based on some common misconceptions.

Asperger syndrome does not make someone more intelligent. It is generally diagnosed in individuals with average-to-above-average intelligence, but that is a feature of the diagnostic criteria more than a feature of the actual disorder, and even then it is not always present. It would, therefore, not increase a character's intelligence score--it might be more appropriate for an intelligent character, but the causality is in the other direction.

Asperger syndrome does not make someone less charismatic. Individuals with Asperger's run the full range as far as force of personality goes, from the meek to the unforgettable, with generally the same distribution as the general population. It would, therefore, not impact a character's charisma score.

Asperger syndrome often makes it take a conscious effort and/or training to read social cues, however once sufficient practice has been done with a particular cue an individual with this diagnosis can actually be better at picking out the cue than an untrained individual. Thus, while an untrained character with Asperger's would, in D&D terms, tend to fail Sense Motive (and possibly Diplomacy) checks, a trained character with the same diagnosis do as well (or better) than a trained character without it. It depends on experience and where attention is being directed.

In short, it can definitely be integrated into a character's persona, but it would primarily be a roleplaying experience rather than an actual attribute. Ability scores should not be affected and skill bonuses/penalties are just too situational.

Also, please don't try to come up with a catch-all for full Autism, since that's actual a wide spectrum of related disorders and attributes which just isn't going to be modeled with a single D&D template. Also, no offense, but your idea of what a savant is doesn't have any bearing in reality--that's from cheesy movies, not actual psych.

[Alex12]

Given that one of the defining aspects (arguably the defining aspect) of Asperger's is a near-obsessive fascination with one specific category of things, I'd say that that would be important for both bonuses and penalties.

For instance: An aspie character is a wizard with particular interest in Evocation. He gets, say, a +2 spellcraft bonus to identifying Evocation spells, and any Evocation spells he casts get a bonus of some sort. However, he gets a penalty of the same amount (both spell ID and casting) doing things outside that school.

An aspie fighter might have a special interest in a particular kind of weapon, or shield, or whatever, and get a bonus with that particular piece of equipment, but a penalty if using something else.

Maybe also something about needing to make a Will save to avoid being distracted (or the appropriate effect) if something about their special interest is in the area (Like if an aspie who's fascinated by rapiers is on the way to meet the rest of the party somewhere, but sees a world-famous rapier maker is in town giving a demonstration of his technique, he'd have to make the save or consider the demonstration more interesting/important than meeting up with everyone else.

Really, it would be up to the DM and the player to decide what's appropriate, I think, but that's just my input as an aspie myself.