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2019-10-12, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
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"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2019-10-12, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
A common behavior among people on the autistic spectrum is "stimming," which is physical activity done while experiencing mental or emotional activity: some people on the spectrum can't think clearly if they're not stimming while in a moment of intense thought or creativity. It can be a conscious activity, but it's often reflexive--an autistic kid may start stimming when explaining some concept they're exited about
Stimming comes in several forms--some people kick their legs, I don't know about anyone else but when I'm intense thought, I get up and pace(which is, admittedly, on the borderline.), but a common form of stimming is "flapping."
That is to say, shaking their hands by the wrist so that it looks like their open hands are flapping like the wings of a bird.
In a lot of places, sometimes very recently, the method of dealing with autistic kids who "flapped" was to tell them to sit on their hands when talking about things that excite them or doing intense cognitive activity. "If you can't sit still and be normal, then sit on your hands."
This, in turn, harmed the child's emotional development and treating them like they're misbehaving just slows down and stunts their ability to learn how to function.
So, tell me, khaine, would you support people who said that autistic kids should have to sit on their hands if they can't sit still and be normal, even at the potential expense of their mental health and ability to function in society?
Because that's the analogous situation here. It's not a matter of misbehaving. It's a matter of Toga having a deep, inborn desire to drink blood as factor of her quirk and going too long without drinking blood is actively harmful to her mental health. Rather, it seems that she's not capable of functioning by herself and needs to take in traits from other people to learn how to "person."
The proper manner of dealing with something like that would be to set up a way for Toga to get blood in safe amounts from consenting people just often enough to hold off the harm that going without would cause to her mental health and teaching her not to take blood from people who aren't willing.
And probably to be careful about things like blood born illnesses. I'm operating on the assumption that since society more or less collapsed and had to be rebuilt that there wasn't time to cure HIV.
Does her quirk compelling her to drink blood excuse er crimes? No. But the fact that she basically went insane from being forced to repress it because her parents dropped the ball provides a rather significant mitigating circumstance.
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In addition to Toga and the all but explict confirmation of All for One's kleptomania, I find it a bit suspicious that the kid whose power is "sweats nitroglycerin" has a lot of the symptoms of Intermittent Explosive Disorder.Last edited by Rater202; 2019-10-12 at 06:35 PM.
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2019-10-12, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I mean this assumes the response to such a thing is to go "whelp, we don't have a treatment right now, looks like we're just letting this go unchecked and endanger everyone." rather than going "oh this is new, we'll have to study how this affects her mind so that we figure out something that does work for her." if its hundreds of years with these quirks, I doubt its the first time this society had to figure out a new kind of mental illness to treat.
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2019-10-12, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
That's not what I said at all.
I said even with studying and proper care, there could very well not be a treatment that's feasible. Cause sometimes, there just isn't. To use Toga specifically, we know her backstory and repressing her Quirk had obvious negative effects on her, but that does not mean it can all be ascribed to her Quirk and being told to behave normally.
Cause her impulses seemed tied up in some very violent tendencies that I doubt would go away if her Quirk did. So even if the solution of 'just find her a safe way to drink people's blood so she doesn't lose her goddamn mind' she doesn't just want anyone's blood. That's the problem. She wants specific people's blood and if she isn't given it 'willingly' then she has shown she will take it by force.
Cause she doesn't want just some of their blood either, she wants as much of it as she can get. Yeah, the MLF lady spun it poetically about how she's just a victim and she'd be a martyr for their cause, but that is what that is, spin. Its also good characterization because you can argue Toga might have turned out better if her parents had been more accepting, if she embraced her Quirk more, but there's a fair bit of evidence she would still be very messed up regardless.
Cause even in MHA, there's not some specific blood-based Quirk stigma, Vlad has a blood-based quirk to and he's a well thought of hero that also serves as a teacher around students. We don't know, to my knowledge, specifically how HIS Quirk works but it gives you an idea that he's not dealing with any unsettling urges. Me? I think Toga could be treated and, at the very least, made not to be a danger to others..but that would be via making sure she doesn't have the chance to hurt others. A bad seed with, unfortunately, a Quirk that compounded her issues along with societal elements. Some of that you could alleviate, but not all of it.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
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2019-10-12, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
then even if there is no feasible treatment, they would at least still KNOW about it and thus put in her in containment at worse.
But that didn't happen.
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2019-10-12, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
The violent impulses probably wouldn't be as bad if she didn't completely snap from being unable to get any blood.
Think of it like an addiction: The longer you go without, the worse you're gonna binge if you give in to the temptation.
It's made pretty clear that Toga is the way she is because her parents treated her as a "creepy demon child" and put pressure on her to be normal instead of getting help for her quirk based issues all because they thought her quirk was gross and that one day the pressure to drink blood got too much and she snapped.
Setting up a way to get her blood in moderation from consenting people might not solve everything but by all means it can't possibly have made her more crazy.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2019-10-12, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
You can create as many analogies as you want, it doesn't excuse Toga's actions AFTER that point. And it is quite literally impossible to determine how bad her violent impulses would otherwise be. Because those same impulses are what made her snap, stab a boy with scissors, and suck out his blood with a straw. And, from there, dive off the deep end.
Cause again, she doesn't just want anyone's blood. And sure, she would probably not be more crazy, but there's an argument to be had that she would be just as crazy and just able to hide her actions better while possibly not being a part of the League of Villains.
Unlike Shigaraki that regretted and had guilt over what he did to his family, Toga has shown absolutely no remorse for what she did. Shigaraki is one you could argue needed help and guidance from someone NOT AFO and he could turn out okay. I would and am arguing that Toga is not the same.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
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2019-10-12, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
Zero people are saying that Toga is not responsible for her actions.
Zero people are saying that what Toga did was in the right.
Zero people are attempting to justify anything she did after that point.
What I and several other people are saying is that Toga's actions would likely have been prevented entirely had her parents had reacted to their daughter's clear and obvious mental illness (quirk related or not) with any action other than saying "you're disgusting, stop being disgusting."
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2019-10-12, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2019-10-12 at 07:57 PM.
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2019-10-12, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
Person has a compulsion to drink blood.
Drinking blood is necessary to maintain person's mental health.
Setting up some system so that can get blood from consenting donors regularly will thus keep their mental health stable.
Maybe that won't fix everything.
But even if it doesn't, it's the logical starting point: When trying to treat someone's mental health, the logical starting point is establishing something that will keep them from getting worse.
Once she's regularly getting blood, things like "consent" and "extracting the blood safely" and "moderation" and "taking no for an answer" and "managing her urges" and "some blood is better than no blood, even if it's not the blood you want" can be taught over time.
But instead, her parents forced her to repress her quirk--a natural part of who she is that her biology and psychology are built around, to the point that she eventually snapped and stabbed a kid to get her long deferred blood fix.Last edited by Rater202; 2019-10-12 at 08:09 PM.
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2019-10-12, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
hm.
for what I can read up on Himiko Toga....apparently she did go to a Quirk Counselor and their advice was to suppress the feeling.
with no indication that she got any visits to him afterwards. which as someone who has gone through special needs programs, once is nowhere near enough for this kind of thing.
like, real programs for this last from childhood all the way to like college. its something you spend most of your early life working with the counselor to get things healthy. relationships are built on that kind of thing and I view the people I worked with during that time as more worthy of respect than my own father.
There is no indication of why she stopped.
so there is few possibilities:
1. her parents thought the advice was enough and stopped it. if thats true, her parents are at fault for not allowing her to seek further help, like a different quirk counselor or something.
2. Himiko Toga thought that was enough and stopped going. then its her fault for refusing help.
3. Horikoshi didn't know enough about this and fumbled it by portraying psychological help inaccurately in his attempt to make Toga look villainous, thinking that a single session of unhelpful advice is good psychological help and parents saying someone is a demon child is anything a reasonable parent would do.
4. Horikoshi knew exactly how this works and intentionally made portrayed the counselor as incompetent in his attempt to make Toga look sympathetic, but bungled the portrayal of her psychological problem.
5. Horikoshi is being even deeper than 4 and trying to say that while the situation is similar to this other thing, the existence of the Quirk is different from normal psychological problems in certain ways that make this more complicated and thus everyone is at fault in some manner, and that while Toga is evil for doing it, her parents and counselor are still at fault for contributing to it.
question is, which one is most likely? thats the problem here.
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2019-10-12, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I don't actually watch this show, but based on the few arguments I've seen on this page I would probably cast my vote with the Idiot Baby Party. That said, Callos is probably more correct on how things would play out, assuming a theoretical fanfic author whose alternate universe shifts one detail and has things otherwise change as little as possible.
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2019-10-12, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
Just so I'm clear here, you're saying that, no matter what kind of structure or counseling Toga may or may not have received as a child, she was eventually going to reach a point where she'd be stabbing people to drink blood?
If so, I really don't feel like this conversation is going to go anywhere.
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2019-10-12, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
Tourette’s also works, similar disorder involving many of the same brain regions but slightly different behaviors, and different comorbidities / coexisting disorders.
For example IED is often comorbid with bipolar, while Tourette’s is more comorbid with ADHD or OCD. Tourettes is more with language and sudden bursts of physical motion as behaviors while Intermittent Explosive Disorder is more emotional mood volatility.
But yes I think the comparison of Bakugou and Toga who have different than our “mental health disorders” because this is fantasy, and fantasy allows us to explore things via metaphor…but I think it is purposeful we can compare things with the heroes, villains, and other characters to real life mental health and how there is not a one size fit all solution to every problem.
Like you mentioned with your personal experience Rater202 the advice you give a 5 year old to help with self-control may work with that 5 year old, but it may not be the same advice you want to give a person with autism involving stimming. Life is complicated, and we need a society with general rules but also a society that is more creative and more understanding for the general rule does not apply to a neuro-diverse society, and in this fantasy world it is not a neuro-diverse society it is a quirk-diverse society.
A society full of quirks is a society filled with
Volatility,
Uncertainty,
Complexity and
Ambiguity
The solutions to a society full of quirks is
Vision,
Understanding,
Courage and
Adaptability.
Note just one of those virtues / counter-strategies I mentioned is not enough, we are dealing with multiple problems simultaneously and the nature of the problems are different, so you have to use the right tool for the right job and that means doing multiple things. Understanding is not enough if you do not also bring Adaptability, Courage, and Vision to solve the problem. Vision is not enough by itself and so on with all the different combinations of those 4 things.
We are in agreement, but let me emphasize a word you used. By default. What is the moral question where lets say 10% of quirks want to be used as an aspect of their quirk, they need to be used and released much like there are storage quirks. What do you do when a subset of those 10% of Quirk Users (so less than 10%, like 1 to 9%) have a Quirk that the general rules of how to organize society do not work? How can we make a society that is just and is beneficial to all when what is the default is so un-standard yet so frightfully common?
Things that happen to 5% of people or 1% or 9% or 1 in 300 is still a whole lot of people when you are talking a population of 327 million for the US or 126 million for Japan (where MHA takes place.)
Let me echo what John Critbati said but use different words.
Toga’s situation is a tragedy, period.
Something being tragic does not mean responsibility is suddenly annulled.
Tragedy merely means a disaster occurred, disaster a word which means prefix dis- “away, without” plus astro (“star, planet”.) So in sum one of the definitions of disaster means without guidance, or without a more talented or expert person they could have prevented this bad outcome, but even if this bad outcome could have been prevented by a role-model or hero this does not excuse the negative effects of what happened.
Himiko Toga is now a serial killer, for she has attacked several people that have died due to the blood loss (this was offscreen but literally is her introduction scene where we are given her name and short backstory.) Toga is responsible for the death of other people, people who were probably innocent and did not perform actions that warranted being murdered. Yet in another life if other choices were made perhaps Himiko Toga would not be a serial killer, this includes actions and choices made by Toga herself, but also the people around Toga such as her parents, society, other authority figures like her teachers and so on.
This is all hypothetical but I sincerely believe it is possible in Toga’s case? Why do I believe this? I believe this for Toga has not done any impulsive murders since joining the League of Villains and even her tradecraft is full of precision and forethought. It seems either she murders people out of a sense of choice, or she only murders people when her desire for blood gets out of control and she is not fully in control of herself during those times.
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I repeat part of this story is crafting a world that works for most of its citizens, but at the same time even if 80% or 90% or 98% or whatever number of people you pick, this society is not making enough of its people happy, the society does not work for everyone.
The Meta Liberation Army had over a 100,000 militia members. Not 100,000 people who were sympathetic to the MLA, no they actually changed the order of their lives with joining an organization and many of them moved to form a city that was exclusively MLA. 1 in 1000 people joining a militia is a big deal from a numbers standpoint. Think about that, 1 in 1000 people were ready for violent revolution and they were organized as a collective unit taking orders and cooperating much like an Army is (well Army is literally in the MLA's name.)
And there are probably more people sympathetic to the MLA who are not active organized MLA militia members.Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2019-10-12, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I feel like with the quality that Horikoshi has shown in the past, that this one is the most likely.
That is a quite accurate summary basically, except for the Idiot Baby Party part. I love a good redemption arc but its not for every character nor does it always fit. Shigaraki, until AfO sunk his claws into him, would be ripe for a redemption arc...Toga? Doesn't feel right.
Essentially, yes. Its still a tragedy and Toga is still sympathetic, but I find the idea that she just needed structure or counseling and she'd be perfectly fine to be an insult to a good villain. Especially because I have not seen a single sign that this would actually happen in the first place. So the conversation isn't likely to go anywhere if you were thinking to change my mind on this, but if you wanted to talk it out and debate it I think its going just fine.
Toga is a sympathetic character and has a background that makes you think 'maybe if things were different she'd be alright!' but that is also ignoring the fact she is a violent and murderous young woman which likely exacerbated by her Quirk but do you imagine she'd be suddenly sane if her Quirk was gone? She'd still obsess and be violent. That's not her quirk, that's her.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
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2019-10-12, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
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2019-10-12, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
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2019-10-13, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I mean..if Toga were a real person, I'd be right there agreeing with you. It'd be a way worse insult. As a fictional character in a story though? Not that bad.
@John Cribati: Alright, cool? I mean its no skin off my back. Especially considering that is very much what Rater is implying in their responses, but also I'm not attributing those thoughts to anyone here, simply stating my opinion on the topic in general.Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2019-10-13 at 12:14 AM.
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2019-10-13, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I never said she'd be suddenly sane if her quirk was gone.
Removing the root cause of the damage won't undo the damage that's already been done.
I cited Toga as evidence that not using quirks can sometimes be harmful to mental health and that quirks can cause psychological effects on people.
She has a fascination with blood and drinking blood as a psychological effect of her quirk. This fascination led her to kill a bird, prompting her parents to emotionally abuse her (calling your child a creepy demon child is abuse) and take her to a quack shrink who told her to repress her urges and pretend to be normal instead of providing actual psychological care.
Several years later, the lack of actual psychological help combined with repressing her deeply ingrained bloodlust caused her to snap, stab the boy she had a crush on and drink his blood.
Do you see how there should logically be steps between "kill a bird to see its blood" and "kill a boy she's crushing on to drink his blood?" right?
Even the worst psychopaths don't go from killing one animal straight to killing one person. There's a progression, and at toga's age even if she was a psychopath or sociopath.
The botched therapy and years of repression clearly accelerated the escalation to some degree.
There was time to prevent her from becoming a threat and her parents dropped the ball.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2019-10-13, 03:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
I'm gonna point out the rest of you have entirely missed the point. The society in MHA isn't based around understanding or vision. It's based around repression for the masses and unrestrained allowance of the elite. This is literally an intentional mirror to contemporary Japanese society that demands an often physically impossible degree of conformity(see also the million or so controversies on hair color or texture) while demanding academic and athletic excellence and also allowing students who excel to get away with more bullying than most western cultures currently do.
This is how Japanese society works. Students who compete and excel are given a level of focus most amateur athletes in America would be envious of and fast tracked to one of the countries world level sports programs(Boxing, Tennis, ect.). Students who stick out in a negative or neutral way are unsightly nuisances who need to conform and suck up being fodder for the best. Remember "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down".
In a system where you get funneled into increasingly stratified and specialized spaces by design cases like Toga happen in real life every day. Likewise cases like Bakugo where some kid with a bit of natural talent can do whatever they want also happen every day. Or cases like Todoroki where some kid in an abusive household basically gets abused until they reach a point their family demands regardless of their feelings.
The entire fantasy of a story like this from day one wasn't that some kid got super strength and could punch bad guys really hard. It was that some adults actually noticed and started caring about his problems and gave him the push he needed to actually be as good as the top kids who are allowed to do whatever they want.
This is why we spent like 2 months going over villain backstories and basically all of them were ignored or abused by society. Because that's what resonates with a lot of people in basically any country. A villain that was beaten down by the world around them and broken holds a mirror to the audience. A villain that was beaten down and broken but then lashes out and can actually hurt the system is someone a lot of people will be invested in. The only way the audience can be satisfied by such a villain's defeat is if the hero was similarly abused but came out it without lashing out. Hence why it's always Batman who fights the Joker and any time Superman gets involved he comes across as a judgemental prick.
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
@ Jayngfet:
...yeah, thats pretty much accurate and on par with everything else I heard about japanese culture from those who study it.
it makes sense from that perspective. which means Himiko Toga is definitely intended to be sympathetic, and her blood quirk is just a reason for the authorities in question to not care about her, because she is weird and not conforming to social order, and the quirk counselors are just there to enforce it. because real psychological therapy is for cultures that believe complaints are valuable and that any problem outside your own can actually be helped.
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2019-10-13, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
In a system where you get funneled into increasingly stratified and specialized spaces by design cases like Toga happen in real life every day. Likewise cases like Bakugo where some kid with a bit of natural talent can do whatever they want also happen every day.
Where it often seemed like a chapter from "lord of the flies" that made me go "where the (censored) are the adults here?"thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2019-10-13, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
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"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
One thing I've also heard is it's also basically impossible to expel misbehaving kids once they're actually in a school. I read a post from a foreigner who taught and he mentions seeing a bunch of kids who never actually attended classes on graduation day. This obviously also contributes to the bullying problem.
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
And yet, the threat of expulsion often comes up in school-based anime for the Heroes...
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2019-10-13, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
People kind of let Bakugou to what he wanted because they knew that the school probably won't let a student in to a hero school if their records show a propensity toward violent behavior I can only assume that they then go "what you do as a bona fide hero student is on you" at that point.
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2019-10-13, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude
But here is the thing the school is not just a school. It is also a military academy. Furthermore it is also other things like a preparatory social club, a social elite insitution maker and networker. There are what 220 students per year (classes A to K) and thus 660 over the 3 years? This and a couple other schools in the nation are the end going to be the the leaders of a nation of a 100 million plus.
It is the concept of Harvard but at age 15 instead of 18. There is a reason Harvard only admits 7000 undergrads a year and it is not the limitations of teaching. No Harvard is the promise you are in the insular-in-crowd that will shape the populace, you are in the upper-class system.
Most societies have this to some degree it is not just Japan or the US but dozens of other societies. Note there is a lot of differences with the surface features of how they organize, yet there are a lot of similarities cross-culture-wise.
The threat of explusion is a serious threat but also the goal is to save image / face of the insitution for their power is they are the best and brightest, they are just, they are inevitable and thus we should socially tolerate...sometimes encourage these people in power.
The threat of explusion is to condition the individuals in the prep school that there power, success, and networking is stronger within the system (together we are more of the sums of our parts) then outside it embarassing everyone. It is like the mob of not just the US but other countries that will allow rival soliders to be forgiven as long as they pay their mob taxes and no longer misbehave. A carrot and a stick approach, behave or the entire system may target you at your most vulnerable.
The threat of explusion is meant not to be used but to remind the excellent student that it could be used.
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What was the Iron Man 2 quote again?
Ivan Vanko : You come from a family of thieves and butchers, and like all guilty men, you try to rewrite your history, to forget all the lives the Stark family has destroyed.
Tony Stark : Speaking of thieves, where'd you get this design?
Tony Stark : You look like you have friends in low places.
Ivan Vanko : My father, Anton Vanko.
Tony Stark : Never heard of him.
Ivan Vanko : My father is the reason you're alive.
Tony Stark : No, the reason I'm alive is because you made a shot, and you missed.
Ivan Vanko : [laughs] If you could make God bleed, people would cease to believe in Him.
Ivan Vanko : There will be blood in the water, the sharks will come.
Ivan Vanko : All I have to do is sit back and watch as the world consumes you.
Destroying the face of the symbol is one of the themes of many of the villians in this show.Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-10-13 at 03:47 PM.
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2019-10-13, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- NYC
Re: My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude