Favored Soul is better than Cleric?

[kpenguin]

Well... no. Not in terms of power.

However, I'd like to say that the idea of having two abilities being necessary for spellcasting is a good idea. It forces the player to spend resources of buffing both and prevents them from making their ability score reach obscene heights.

Perhaps its not the classes with MAD with the problem, but the ones with SAD.

[Solo]

Favored Soul is more balanced than cleric, I would agree.

[KIDS]

Definitely, Favored Soul is much more balanced. And you reasoning of SAD vs. MAD is very much correct I'd say.

Maybe that doesn't belong in here but I thought that forcing all druids to use Shapeshift variant, Clerics to be Favored Souls, removing Divine Power and some most broken arcane spells from the game and using ToB would make for a very balanced game...

[Kurald Galain]

Additionally, Vancian casting is acceptable flavor-wise for wizards (which is what Jack Vance had written it for), but doesn't make a whole lot of sense when applied to clerics. You have to pray in advance for what miracles you might need that day, and if you are in trouble of some other kind your god refuses to help you? Sheesh!

[Prophaniti]

I dont know... I haven't chanced to play one yet, but Favored Soul struck me as rather arbitrary. Just WotC wanting to make a sorcerer who casts divine spells. Oh, hey! And let's give them wings! Man, that's a great idea!

Still, I'll reserve final judgement for after I've played one.

[Dode]

Like a cleric, but with MAD, no domain abilities, domain spells, heavy armor proficiency or undead turning/rebuking (and thus no Divine metamagic). Oh, but they get Weapon Focus for free AND a good reflex save.

*cough*

[Artemician]

The Wings/Weapon Focus never made sense to me as well. But then again, neither did Turn Undead.

[Hyozo]

Like a cleric, but with MAD, no domain abilities, domain spells, heavy armor proficiency or undead turning/rebuking (and thus no Divine metamagic). Oh, but they get Weapon Focus for free AND a good reflex save.

*cough*

Read the OP before you reply. He said in terms of balance, not power.

[Dode]

Read the OP before you reply. He said in terms of balance, not power.

That he did. That being said, taking a core class and reducing it to a mediocre self-buffer/healbot at the cost of all variety and even the ability to turn undead is hardly a 'balancing feature'. It's like saying that the Samurai class is 'better' then Fighter because it's less open to potential abuse.

[Kyeudo]

Favored Soul isn't realy MAD, he's more of DAD (Dual Ability Dependant). I actualy think that the Favored Soul makes more sense than the cleric. I think they should get at least a single domain though.

As for wings, look at Celestials and Fiends. A whole lot of both can fly in some form or another, as well as Half-Fiends and Half-Celestials. A Favored Soul is gradualy becoming a perfect servant of his diety, and most dieties' servitors fly.

[Telonius]

Favored Soul does go a little bit too far in nerfing the Cleric. There's probably a happy medium in there somewhere, but I'd say that it's a lot closer to Favored Soul than it is to Cleric. I strongly suspect that it was the trial run of the 4e divine caster, in much the same way that Warlock was a pre-4e experimental blaster.

[Dr. Weasel]

Favored Soul isn't realy MAD, he's more of DAD (Dual Ability Dependant).

Please don't start the Pointless New Acronym Game (PNAG) again. 2>1 Therefore MAD.

Most Clerics in my games have relied on very few spells, so the Favored Soul doesn't seem like it would be too different in general practice (I actually haven't seen one played, but the Spontaneous Clerics in my old games- before I ditched Arcane and Divine altogether- weren't played too differently than Clerics normally are).

I agree though with the dislike for Vancian divine casters and the removal of some of the Spells a Cleric could use is always a good thing.

One aspect of the Favored Soul I really like is that there's more variance between characters than normal Clerics. You can focus on spellcasting quantity or power independently and you won't have the same spell list as every other member of your class.

[Toxic Avenger]

Definitely, Favored Soul is much more balanced. And you reasoning of SAD vs. MAD is very much correct I'd say.

Maybe that doesn't belong in here but I thought that forcing all druids to use Shapeshift variant, Clerics to be Favored Souls, removing Divine Power and some most broken arcane spells from the game and using ToB would make for a very balanced game...

Only if wizards are banned in addition to the above...

[Flawless]

That he did. That being said, taking a core class and reducing it to a mediocre self-buffer/healbot at the cost of all variety and even the ability to turn undead is hardly a 'balancing feature'. It's like saying that the Samurai class is 'better' then Fighter because it's less open to potential abuse.

But the Favoured Soul is actually more balanced whereas the Samurai is less balanced (because it sucks even more than the monk...). So Favoured Soul is a good alternative for Clerics (if they are not avaible, anyway) but there is no reason to play a Samurai ever (because Fighters, Barabarians and co. are not likely to be banned in a game).

[Solo]

Only if wizards are banned in addition to the above...

And replaced by sorcerers.

[Kyeudo]

Please don't start the Pointless New Acronym Game (PNAG) again. 2>1 Therefore MAD.

I'm not. DAD already existed, although is a infrequently used term. I found it on a discussion of the various types of ability dependancy for noobs. I think it was on this forum somewhere, although it could be on the Wizards boards.

As for Sorcerers, they need some flexibility to realy be worth it. Oddly enough, flexibility was the supposed balanacing point of the Sorcerer.

[skywalker]

That he did. That being said, taking a core class and reducing it to a mediocre self-buffer/healbot at the cost of all variety and even the ability to turn undead is hardly a 'balancing feature'. It's like saying that the Samurai class is 'better' then Fighter because it's less open to potential abuse.

No, it is a balancing feature, because it makes the cleric(one of the big three, and probably big two) less powerful, IE more balanced.

More on-topic:
The one thing that always drove me crazy about favored souls was that to even halfway replace the cleric, they have to spend one spell known per couple of levels on a cure spell. Since normally, the cleric doesn't have to worry about healing at all, but can look at a dying ally and say, "oh, hey, cure minor wounds" then go grab a wand. A favored soul can't do that. I'm all in favor of clerics having fewer features and more attributes to have to rely on, but what will be the most balancing thing in 4e is if someone takes a look at the divine metamagic-nightstick screw-up, and says "What the hell were we thinking?!"

Then clerics will be much more balanced to start with. Who thought up the nightstick? When has any cleric ever needed more turn undead uses than he has, except to fuel divine metamagic?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Favored Souls don't need Wisdom.

Seriously, just take only healing and buff spells, and shred things in melee just like a cleric. Saving throws? Who needs 'em? Works even better with Favored of Bahamut/Tiamat or Favored of the Fiends level substitutions, as they give you magical natural weapons that deal good damage.

One level of fighter for heavy armor and martial weapons may be advisable.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I like the class but I would like to have seen the class specials changed with options for the PC to choose based on his chosen diety like more of the PRCs are doing like the Shadow Thief of Amn picks his PRC bonus feat from a list of choices tailored to the PRC.

I find it odd a Favored Soul with a direct connection to their Diety doesn't pick up a Domain at First level or the first few levels along with a second one later in the progression.

Little things like:

Choice of First Domain or Deity's weapon focus or something cool like Prophet of the Divine from Powers of Faerun at level 3.

Turning at level 7 instead of Energy Resistance 1st type at level 5 which is lost.

Instead of Ur - Lords or Priests I'd have a variant PRC like the Ur - Adepts which required FS - 6 or 7 spellcasting and specials based more on the Sunmaster PRC in Lost Empires of Faerun or the Ur Priest with a few changes to the specials and fluff.

Divine Grace at level 10 instead of Energy resistance 2nd type.

Choice of a Second Domain at level 12 instead of weapon specialization.

Instead of Wings at level 17 I'd have something cool like Summon Aspect of the Diety based on the Dragon Magic spell Aspect of the Platinum Dragon.

Some of these have a cost of deferring or foregoing PRC advancement.

[Dausuul]

Favored Soul does go a little bit too far in nerfing the Cleric.

I very much disagree. Favored souls are weak by full-caster standards, but they can still pull off CoDzilla perfectly well--in fact, even a bit better than the cleric, since they get more spells per day to do it with. Their power level is easily up there with the Tome of Battle classes.

[The_Snark]

Agreed. It's too bad that they have to burn spells known on every healing spell, but more or les unavoidable, and the Panacea and Heal spells allow them to keep up with the cleric's ability to remove every negative condition under the sun.

And they are excellent self-buffers, particularly since Wisdom isn't all that important if you go that route. Of course, you need Strength if you do that; so you're faced with a choice between being an offensive spellcaster or a self-buffing warrior. And the real problem with clerics is that as written, they do both with very little effort.

They make an interesting contrast to fighters who don't have to buff; the barbarians and warblades can just charge right in, whereas the favored soul has to choose how many buff spells to use before wading in.

[Roderick_BR]

I like the Favored Soul, but I don't get the weapon focus, weapon specialization, energy resistance and the wings feature. I'd change it all for the ability to get a domain.

[The_Snark]

Energy Resistance, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Wings: Why do people say they don't understand why the favored soul has these class features? They're blessed by their god. Specifically chosen. They're given a slight measure of the deity's skill with their preferred weapon, they're protected from harmful magic, and eventually may be made into something even closer to their patron deity, hence wings (nearly every deity has winged servants)/damage reduction.

I agree that they should have some way of getting a domain, though.

[Shas aia Toriia]

I agree with the above poster. Though maybe take out Weapon Focus + Specialization and get domain. I think CASTLEMIKE had an interesting special list, mainly with the way energy resistance was used (in this case, replaced)

EDIT: Also, I love Favoured Souls! Heck, even my avatar is one!

[Draz74]

And replaced by sorcerers.

Or Psions.

Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Ardent, Psion, Binder, Bard, Psychic Warrior, Ranger, Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Favored Soul. I think that's a fairly well-balanced set of out-of-the-book classes to let people pick from. (Though of course it gets better if we're allowed to houserule anything about the classes, too. And there are probably more classes out there that could be added to this list without breaking anything, too.)

[DraPrime]

I always thought that not being able to turn/rebuke undead was a big weakness. Many undead encounters that would have been tough have been quickly solved by some lucky rolls during a turn/rebuke check. Still, the favored soul gets some nice things. Wings, energy resistance, and weapon specialization.

[....]

The Wings/Weapon Focus never made sense to me as well. But then again, neither did Turn Undead.

You never saw how a man of the faith could banish undead abominations with the pure, unrelenting symbol of his good deity? Huh...

Now, I don't get this whole, 'turn attempts as ammo for cooler abilities' thing they've got going, but whatever.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I give Favored Souls the ability to pick one domain and get that domain's spells as bonus spells known. I also let them pick a (reasonable) bonus feat if they don't want weapon focus.

[Starsinger]

I give Favored Souls the ability to pick one domain and get that domain's spells as bonus spells known. I also let them pick a (reasonable) bonus feat if they don't want weapon focus.

Me too, I also tend to let favorite souls use their deities other domains as options to pick from for spells known... Afterall.. Why can't favored souls learn the more esoteric domain only spells?

[Dode]

No, it is a balancing feature, because it makes the cleric(one of the big three, and probably big two) less powerful, IE more balanced.

How does a sucky class do anything to address the cleric or it's power level? Hexblades aren't retroactively depowering Duskblades, nor does the existence of Wu Jens "balance" the Wizard.