Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Borgh]

To be fair, Space Wolves had a linear track before that - Blood Claw, Grey Hunter, Long Fang.

But to be fair there is at least a solid fluff reason for that and it is not so much a "promotion" as being organized around the disposition of the marine in question.

[Cheesegear]

To be fair, Space Wolves had a linear track before that - Blood Claw, Grey Hunter, Long Fang.

Whoa. They don't just go to Long Fang. They get to be Wolf Guard, if they want to be.
In the Space Wolves' fluff, Long Fang and Wolf Guard are roughly equal in rank.
...Crunch does not reflect this.

[hamishspence]

Wolf Guard are the equivalent of Veteran squads - with the proviso that a young Wolf can get into the Guard if their talents are great enough and their feats are impressive enough.

Long Fangs are those whose feats were never great enough to merit a transfer into the Wolf Guard, and a chance to receive training in the use of Terminator Armour.

There's also an element of "the whole squad is assessed together".



So - start as Blood Claws

Once depleted, if they're also reasonably talented - given bolters and called Grey Hunters.

Those Grey Hunters who distinguish themselves - leave the squad and become Wolf Guard.

The remainder, once depleted, if they get old enough and still fail to distinguish themselves - given heavy weapons and called Long Fangs.

[LeSwordfish]

It's appropriately Space Wolf that "years of service" and "did some cool deeds" are two seperate advancement tracks. That's why they become the heavy weapon troopers I suppose - your average Long Fang has spent a century going "I'm not charging that. Let's shoot it with our guns instead?"

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Space Wolves have always been a bit of a puzzle for me. Their theming would normally suggest melee specialisation (Viking werewolves and all) but they’re actually more rounded than say the Blood Angels.

It’s notable that they see hot headed melee ferocity as something to be expected but also something to burn out.

[Cheesegear]

It’s notable that they see hot headed melee ferocity as something to be expected but also something to burn out.

Blood Claw: I'm full of piss and vinegar, and I'm gonna slay me a monster with my bare hands! They'll sing my Saga forever, and my gene-seed will be legendary.
Long Fang: Yeah, nah. I'm good, 'ey? Back '78, me 'n' my Pack tried to kill a monster. Out of the 10 of us, only two of us made it back, and I lost an eye. I'm gonna sit over that hill yonder, and if I see a monster, I'm gonna shoot in the face with my Lascannon.

[hamishspence]

Long Fang: Yeah, nah. I'm good, 'ey? Back '78, me 'n' my Pack tried to kill a monster. Out of the 10 of us, only two of us made it back, and I lost an eye. I'm gonna sit over that hill yonder, and if I see a monster, I'm gonna shoot in the face with my Lascannon.

I thought a Long Fang pack normally had to consist entirely of survivors from a single Grey Hunter pack, who themselves normally have to consist entirely of survivors from a single Blood Claw pack, to maintain comradely cohesion?

As such, wouldn't the result of a pack reduced from 10 to 2 all at once, be the two survivors being declared "Lone Wolves"? While the name implies that the pack was reduced to 1 rather than 2, I get the impression that the Lone Wolf solution applies whenever a pack becomes too small, and the survivors are not experienced enough to be promoted.

Blood Claw pack reduced to 2 or 3, and none are good enough to get into Wolf guard, Become Lone Wolves. Grey Hunter pack reduced to 2 or 3, none are good enough to get into Wolf Guard, and are far too young to be Long Fangs? Lone Wolves.

[Forum Explorer]

I thought a Long Fang pack normally had to consist entirely of survivors from a single Grey Hunter pack, who themselves normally have to consist entirely of survivors from a single Blood Claw pack, to maintain comradely cohesion?

As such, wouldn't the result of a pack reduced from 10 to 2 all at once, be the two survivors being declared "Lone Wolves"? While the name implies that the pack was reduced to 1 rather than 2, I get the impression that the Lone Wolf solution applies whenever a pack becomes too small, and the survivors are not experienced enough to be promoted.

Blood Claw pack reduced to 2 or 3, and none are good enough to get into Wolf guard, Become Lone Wolves. Grey Hunter pack reduced to 2 or 3, none are good enough to get into Wolf Guard, and are far too young to be Long Fangs? Lone Wolves.

I thought Lone Wolves were those Space Wolves who lost all (or most) of their squad, and got so caught up in their grief and rage to become suicidal. Or those who were unable to mix together with a new pack of Marines due to 'issues.'

But overall, they are much rarer. Most Space Wolves mix into a new squad just fine. Or if not fine, at least with a minimum amount of friction.

[Cheesegear]

I thought a Long Fang pack normally had to consist entirely of survivors from a single Grey Hunter pack, who themselves normally have to consist entirely of survivors from a single Blood Claw pack, to maintain comradely cohesion?

Yes and no. Or, rather, it's contradicted in many places. Because GW is gonna GW. Rather than retcon something outright, they simply don't repeat it in later Codecies, but do contradict it, then say "You decide." and wave spooky hands.

What happens when you have a pack of Blood Claws. Some of them still believe in Chainswords, but others realise that The Emperor gave Astartes Boltguns for a reason? Would the squad become Sky- or Swiftclaws? Or would the squad become Grey Hunters? Wouldn't that break squad cohesion if some Wolves matured in battle, whilst others didn't?

I get the impression that the Lone Wolf solution applies whenever a pack becomes too small, and the survivors are not experienced enough to be promoted.

They would more likely be folded into another Pack that has lost their Brothers. Which is known to happen; You have a Pack fight, the established Wolf punches the new Wolf in the face. We good? We're good. Everyone moves on.
If a Space Wolf can't form new bonds, what's even the point of joining the Deathwatch? What's the point in coming back to Fenris after your Watch has ended (not in the Game of Thrones way)?
Lone Wolf is a mentality, not a rank. Losing all your friends doesn't make you a Lone Wolf. Slipping into severe depression and rage disorders, makes you a Lone Wolf.

Lone Wolves are one of those things that sound cool (Navigators are super rare and each ship only gets one, and they should be protected at all costs), but later writers realised it was dumb and constrictive, and made stories harder to write (Navigators have to be everywhere, and replaceable, or the entire Imperium falls apart).

[hamishspence]

Yes and no. Or, rather, it's contradicted in many places. Because GW is gonna GW. Rather than retcon something outright, they simply don't repeat it in later Codecies, but do contradict it, then say "You decide." and wave spooky hands.

What happens when you have a pack of Blood Claws. Some of them still believe in Chainswords, but others realise that The Emperor gave Astartes Boltguns for a reason? Would the squad become Sky- or Swiftclaws? Or would the squad become Grey Hunters? Wouldn't that break squad cohesion if some Wolves matured in battle, whilst others didn't?

I figure squads only become Grey Hunters once they're old enough that their hair is beginning to turn grey - hence the name.

[Cheesegear]

I figure squads only become Grey Hunters once they're old enough that their hair is beginning to turn grey - hence the name.

No. Being a Grey Hunter is a mentality. Some Wolves are Blood Claws forever.

[lord_khaine]

I though all Space Wulfs either grew out of the blood claw mentality, gained enough notoriety to become Wolf Guard,
or i guess died before getting gray hairs.

[Wraith]

Positions in the FoC are in theory linear and well mapped out, but in practice are quite fluid and are usually only guidelines to any but the most inflexible of Codex-adherent Chapters.

You're supposed to start out as a Scout (or equivalent), then move around until you ultimately end up in the 1st Company and hoping to get a suit of Terminator armour. What actually happens is that some guys get promoted according to their circumstances and aptitudes, and others get demoted down to Scout (because its demeaning to be put back with the 'kids' and be bossed around by your old Scout Sergeant again) or to the Devastators (where they aren't allowed to hold a Heavy Weapon, and have to stand at the back out of trouble and learn to be patient and obey orders).

The truth is, some guys are really good at being Assault Marines so they're allowed to stay there forever, whereas others are highly experienced in all forms of warfare but neither excel nor fail at any of them, so they end up in the 8th or 9th Company Tactical Marines and get reassigned to fill in the gaps as required - not out of glory or punishment, but just because that Company needs an extra body to make up numbers.

It's one of the things that most Chapters get right about the Codex Astartes - while it says that you should go through each role in turn, sometimes you need to bend the rules and assign people where they're best suited, or where they're more urgently needed. The Codex was never meant to be taken literally and without reinterpretation, it's there to start you on the correct route to thinking for yourself.

[Forum Explorer]

No. Being a Grey Hunter is a mentality. Some Wolves are Blood Claws forever.

I think it is a little literal though. It the sense that it's typical for a Space Wolf to start having grey hairs before they become a Grey Hunter, and their fangs are long by the time they become a Longfang. It is mentality based as there are exceptions in both directions, but that's the typical nature of things.

[Cikomyr]

I can’t remember which edition it was that introduced the linear progression track for space marines. Scout to Devastator to Assault to Tactical.

I never really liked it, since (a) to my knowledge the crunch never supported the idea of Tactical Marines being super experienced dudes who could do anything and (b) it seemed to imply that regardless of how good you were at Assaulting or Devastating, your ultimate fate was to be kicked upstairs into a Tactical Squad.

Maybe i’m misinterpreting it though?

I think the point meant is that a Tactical Marine Squad is the ultimate multitool of an Astartes Chapter. Marines who have proved they can cut it in both ranged and melee specialist get to exercise both.

Assault and Devastator posting serves 2 purposes: first they allow the test of full fledged marine in a long standing position dedicated to a specific style of battle. You get to know as much as possible about the intricacies of ranged and melee battlefield tactics.

The second use is to give veterancy or leadership positions to marines who aren't cut to be a multitool, but still proved to be extremely talented in a specific doctrine. An Assault Sergeant is no mere Tactical-in-training.

Same for Scout Sergeants. They are not trainees, but probably fully fledged marines who have shown remarkable leadership and teaching skills for the initiates.

If I had to put any sort of hierarchy between sergeants, it would be Tactical > Scout > Devastator = Assault. But all serve a purpose.

[Cheesegear]

I think the point meant is that a Tactical Marine Squad is the ultimate multitool of an Astartes Chapter. Marines who have proved they can cut it in both ranged and melee specialist get to exercise both.

The issue is that they can't/don't.

The fluff says that they are good at everything. However, because the Tactical Marine is the backbone of a Space Marine army (at least it was, back in 5e), game design says that the unit you're likely to take the most has to be a 'generalist' unit. Because we know how the game is played, 'generalist' units are bad. Therefore, the unit that the fluff says is good at everything, is actually terrible at everything because the unit has no dedicated focus.

'Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of None' is a secret codephrase that actually means 'No real talent. A little bit **** at everything.'

One way Scouts used to go was*:

Scout - Boltgun, Blade and Rifle

Tactical

Veteran

Assault

Veteran

Devastator

Veteran

...In this way, the Marine's progression is pretty much decided when he's a Scout, and their disposition (basically, how Space Wolves work). A Chapter would then be stacked with Tactical Marines, because the vast majority of recruits showed no real preference for Melee (Blades) or hanging out and waiting (Rifles). This is why certain Chapters stacked their lines with Assault Marines or Devastators, because that's where the majority of the recruits wanted to go, based on how the Chapter operated. Blood Angels gene-seed causes recruits to be aggressive, thus, a lot of recruits showed aptitude for CQC, so the Blood Angels' Chapter ended up with a lot of Assault Marines.

Another way was*:

Scout

Tactical Marine

Veteran

Assault Marine

Veteran

Devastator

Veteran

...In this way, a Scout was a generalist of warfare, learning the ropes. Boltgun, Blade and Rifle. Learn all of them. Learning how to fight, was done while you were learning how to fight. By learning all skills, this would directly transfer them to Tactical Marines. A Chapter had so many Tactical Marines because the recruitment process was front-loaded with them, and it was only after a few more decades of war, that a Marine developed their personal style, and where they were best suited. As such, Assault Marines and Devastators were very similar to a 'Veteran/Sergeant' path, being older and more experienced meant that they could go into CQC with alien horrors and not die in seconds. Which is why Chapters weren't chock-full of Assault Marines and Devastators, because becoming a specialist, is something that takes time.

Now, we have this bizarre fluff where the 'generalist unit' is written to be hyper-specialised in all fields of war...But can't seem to do any of them, well, when on the board. The way they train as an Assault Marine, isn't done when they're a Scout-with-a-Knife as early as possible. They're trained as an Assault Marine in their 50s. After they've already been in several fights and may have really liked Melee training like...Ages ago. The way that Marines are trained, now, should get them injured and/or killed relatively frequently.

Either of the previous ways of progression, made sense (training is done while training). Generalist units don't do anything particularly well. Specialised units, are made up of specialists, not untrained idiots. But, Matt Ward's job was to sell you on Space Marines. The 'average joe' Space Marine that you take the most of, is a genius at warfare and has a half-century of warfare under his belt at least, He couldn't do it in the stat-block, because game design. But he could do it in the fluff which has no relevance to anything.

*I don't remember which was first. I think Graham McNeill wrote the former in 4e?

[Cikomyr]

The issue is that they can't/don't.

The fluff says that they are good at everything. However, because the Tactical Marine is the backbone of a Space Marine army (at least it was, back in 5e), game design says that the unit you're likely to take the most has to be a 'generalist' unit. Because we know how the game is played, 'generalist' units are bad. Therefore, the unit that the fluff says is good at everything, is actually terrible at everything because the unit has no dedicated focus.

'Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of None' is a secret codephrase that actually means 'No real talent. A little bit **** at everything.'

One way Scouts used to go was*:

Scout - Boltgun, Blade and Rifle

Tactical

Veteran

Assault

Veteran

Devastator

Veteran

...In this way, the Marine's progression is pretty much decided when he's a Scout, and their disposition (basically, how Space Wolves work). A Chapter would then be stacked with Tactical Marines, because the vast majority of recruits showed no real preference for Melee (Blades) or hanging out and waiting (Rifles). This is why certain Chapters stacked their lines with Assault Marines or Devastators, because that's where the majority of the recruits wanted to go, based on how the Chapter operated. Blood Angels gene-seed causes recruits to be aggressive, thus, a lot of recruits showed aptitude for CQC, so the Blood Angels' Chapter ended up with a lot of Assault Marines.

Another way was*:

Scout

Tactical Marine

Veteran

Assault Marine

Veteran

Devastator

Veteran

...In this way, a Scout was a generalist of warfare, learning the ropes. Boltgun, Blade and Rifle. Learn all of them. Learning how to fight, was done while you were learning how to fight. By learning all skills, this would directly transfer them to Tactical Marines. A Chapter had so many Tactical Marines because the recruitment process was front-loaded with them, and it was only after a few more decades of war, that a Marine developed their personal style, and where they were best suited. As such, Assault Marines and Devastators were very similar to a 'Veteran/Sergeant' path, being older and more experienced meant that they could go into CQC with alien horrors and not die in seconds. Which is why Chapters weren't chock-full of Assault Marines and Devastators, because becoming a specialist, is something that takes time.

Now, we have this bizarre fluff where the 'generalist unit' is written to be hyper-specialised in all fields of war...But can't seem to do any of them, well, when on the board. The way they train as an Assault Marine, isn't done when they're a Scout-with-a-Knife as early as possible. They're trained as an Assault Marine in their 50s. After they've already been in several fights and may have really liked Melee training like...Ages ago. The way that Marines are trained, now, should get them injured and/or killed relatively frequently.

Either of the previous ways of progression, made sense (training is done while training). Generalist units don't do anything particularly well. Specialised units, are made up of specialists, not untrained idiots. But, Matt Ward's job was to sell you on Space Marines. The 'average joe' Space Marine that you take the most of, is a genius at warfare and has a half-century of warfare under his belt at least, He couldn't do it in the stat-block, because game design. But he could do it in the fluff which has no relevance to anything.

*I don't remember which was first. I think Graham McNeill wrote the former in 4e?

I am really sorry. You really are one of the most knowledgeable about all things fluff, the novels, etc. It's just.. are you using Crunch to negate the Fluff?

Just because the tactical marines in the game, designed to be a generalist - which therefore is usually pretty crappy in many wargames - doesn't mean fluff-wise the Tactical Marines can't be the actually super-high and mighty masters of the battlefield.

Think of the Tactical Marines as the ultimate multi-faceted version of the perfect soldier. You can deploy a squad of them and they'll do every-frakking-thing you need them to do.

Devastators and Assault? Okay, they are still learning the ropes man. That's why we give them more specialized equipment that works better in large-scale coordinated engagements. But generalist ground-control infantry? That's the Tactical Marines that reign supreme.

Either that or I just don't get the point the fluff is trying to make then XD

[Cheesegear]

I am really sorry. You really are one of the most knowledgeable about all things fluff, the novels, etc. It's just.. are you using Crunch to negate the Fluff?

No. I'm using fluff to negate fluff. The crunch is just deep-fried on.

Just because the tactical marines in the game, designed to be a generalist - which therefore is usually pretty crappy in many wargames - doesn't mean fluff-wise the Tactical Marines can't be the actually super-high and mighty masters of the battlefield.

Yes it does. Consider you're not talking about a well-established Chapter with millenia of history:
Consider a recent Founding. With post-5e fluff, the idea is that relatively new Chapter is front-loaded with Companies' worth of Assault Marines and Devastators, with zero Tactical Marines. It doesn't check out.

You can deploy a squad of them and they'll do every-frakking-thing you need them to do.

A squad with Boltguns and Knives wont do ****. Except maybe block a bottleneck and die, just in time for the Devastators to rock up behind them and ask why they're failing to hold the bottleneck, and then the Devastators unload several Heavy Bolters' worth of firepower into the breach and wipe the horde in less than 20 seconds. The Assault Marines then follow up using Jump Packs to swarm the Beast from varying angles of attack, to harrass and distract the Beast whilst it tries to see in seven directions at once.

Two Tactical Marines, who stayed out of the fight, rib each other. "Amateurs." they smirk to each other.

You're thinking of Deathwatch Veterans with several specialists of varying disciplines with a combined centuries of experience to draw from. With customised wargear tailored to each and every member of the squad's disposition and discipline, so that regardless of situation, the squad has the right Marine, with the right tools, who can instruct his squad-mates on what to do in any situation because Veterans know how to work as a team. So if one person knows something, the whole squad knows the same thing.

That's a generalist unit that's good at everything.

Either that or I just don't get the point the fluff is trying to make then XD

The fluff is saying that the Tactical Marine are the superior Marine. Despite the fact that experience makes you a specialist, not a generalist. Matt Ward wrote how gaining expertise works, backwards. Matt Ward also wrote that the vast majority of any given Chapter took at least 50 years to get to that point, instead of like...8. The majority of a Chapter should be Devastators and Assault Marines, not Tacticals.

I'm saying that that doesn't check out when you think about it for longer than five seconds. Especially when you start talking about recruitment on a mass scale. Chapters should be back-loaded to the 8th and 9th Companies, and they're not. The way the fluff should be written, is that what's in a Battle Company, should make up like, two, maybe three Companies, tops.

[hamishspence]

Yes it does. Consider you're not talking about a well-established Chapter with millenia of history:
Consider a recent Founding. With post-5e fluff, the idea is that relatively new Chapter is front-loaded with Companies' worth of Assault Marines and Devastators, with zero Tactical Marines. It doesn't check out.

A completely new chapter will have Tacticals without much experience (because part of the reasoning behind the whole Battle Company system is to create well rounded, versatile companies) - but that's the exception, not the rule.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Positions in the FoC are in theory linear and well mapped out, but in practice are quite fluid and are usually only guidelines to any but the most inflexible of Codex-adherent Chapters.

(snip for space)

It's one of the things that most Chapters get right about the Codex Astartes - while it says that you should go through each role in turn, sometimes you need to bend the rules and assign people where they're best suited, or where they're more urgently needed. The Codex was never meant to be taken literally and without reinterpretation, it's there to start you on the correct route to thinking for yourself.

This is more or less how I thought it should go. The Tactical Squad isn’t some super elite “final form”, but the last stop for any Astartes who didn’t particularly excel at anything. This correlates with the fact that Tac Squads make up almost half of a Chapter’s number. The Assault and Devastator squads are retaining only the best of those specialists and passing the rest to the Tactical Squads.

They’re still Space Marines, mind. They’ll mop the floor with 90% of anyone else’s generalist troops (that’s the idea anyway).

And fluff wise, all that assault and Devastator experience wouldn’t exactly hurt.

[hamishspence]

I could see the Support Companies as having "trainee Assault and Devastators" and the ones within the Battle Companies, being "experienced Assault and Devastators"

[Kris Strife]

I did kind of like the idea of the first steps for neophytes being scouts then devastators for most chapters. Kind of made sense that the first two roles would be kept out of front line combat where they could see how combat actually went in ways that training grounds didn't really cover. I don't know that the new guy would be given a heavy weapon, rather than act as a spotter for some of the weapons, or to help fend off any enemies that try to flank their position, or get into melee range. Especially for those chapters who prefer heavy weapons with a blast radius.

[hamishspence]

I did kind of like the idea of the first steps for neophytes being scouts then devastators for most chapters. Kind of made sense that the first two roles would be kept out of front line combat where they could see how combat actually went in ways that training grounds didn't really cover. I don't know that the new guy would be given a heavy weapon, rather than act as a spotter for some of the weapons, or to help fend off any enemies that try to flank their position, or get into melee range. Especially for those chapters who prefer heavy weapons with a blast radius.

The new guys in Devastator squads act as a screen for the heavy weapon guys. Only after they've survived in the squad for a while, acquitting themselves well, do they get a heavy weapon.

[Cheesegear]

The new guys in Devastator squads act as a screen for the heavy weapon guys. Only after they've survived in the squad for a while, acquitting themselves well, do they get a heavy weapon.

...and then they get that Heavy weapon ripped off of them, and then they're forced to put a Jump Pack on.

[hamishspence]

Because apparently Assault squads need discipline, and not to get so carried away with bloodlust in battle that they miss orders. Apparently the Devastator squads are where that discipline is cemented.

[IthilanorStPete]

Question about color schemes: do Aspect Warriors use any Craftworld-specific coloration? Or do they only use the Aspect colors?

[DataNinja]

Question about color schemes: do Aspect Warriors use any Craftworld-specific coloration? Or do they only use the Aspect colors?

They do not use Craftworld colours - instead, each shrine has their own colour scheme that represents them, which is based on a general colour palette. Swooping Hawks involve blues and greys and whites; Striking Scorpions greens and browns and yellows. That sort of thing. I don't know how much that's emphasised now, rather than the single unified scheme, though.

Here's some (much older) examples. The... 4th/5th ed Eldar Book has several much more modern ones (for instance, the Dark Reapers here are... very different), IIRC, but this is the one I could find as an image online.

Spoiler

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[IthilanorStPete]

They do not use Craftworld colours - instead, each shrine has their own colour scheme that represents them, which is based on a general colour palette. Swooping Hawks involve blues and greys and whites; Striking Scorpions greens and browns and yellows. That sort of thing. I don't know how much that's emphasised now, rather than the single unified scheme, though.

Here's some (much older) examples. The... 4th/5th ed Eldar Book has several much more modern ones (for instance, the Dark Reapers here are... very different), IIRC, but this is the one I could find as an image online.

Spoiler

Show

Ok, that's about what I thought, but wasn't sure. Thanks.

[Platinius]

https://www.deviantart.com/luthernie...yber-695616961

Enjoy!

[Cikomyr]

https://www.deviantart.com/luthernie...yber-695616961

Enjoy!

Awwww.

I love the Ciaphas Cain books outside of the fact they are 40k books. They are such a fantastic example of comedy and highly rationalized demonstration of the highest moral standards available to someone who is literally handed anything he asks for.