Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[DataNinja]

someone who is literally handed anything he asks for.

Except for peace and quiet.

[Destro_Yersul]

I love the fact that they ARE 40k books. Goes to show that you can have your grimdark and humour too.

[Cikomyr]

I love the fact that they ARE 40k books. Goes to show that you can have your grimdark and humour too.

Oh, agreed. The mix of the super serious grimdark/adolescent violent over the top nature of the setting with Cain's honest to god moral standards and care for other people just makes the icing on the cake.

However, it's somewhat inspirational to follow the "confession" of a bona fide good man whose darkest side is that his emotional core might not have been as perfectly heroic selfless as everyone else believe, so he is wracked with impostor syndrome and has to come up with a rationalization for every good deed he ever did.

But he still do all these good deeds, book after book, and he has to rationalize more and more his good deeds, his heroism, and his care for the little man.

He is both a quasi Saint and a deeply humane character. His story is that "even if you are scared, you can still be a hero and care for other people", which is oddly inspirational regardless of setting.

[Cikomyr2]

Heya.

So I was reading up on the Dark Age of Technology, and the Great Strife, early Crusade, etc.. And one thing struct me.

Did the Emperor basically.. Spread the cult of the Adeptus Mechanics across the entire galaxy? Before the Great Crusade, the cult only existed on Mars, right?

Other Human nations had access to high technology, and a working understanding of it. But after the Emperor conquered them, the AM takes over all technological wonders and industry, and impose their superstition on the conquered population who.. For all intent and purpose managed well without all the silly dogma.

If anything, I would say this probably caused the Imperium to be technologically stagnant more than anything else.

[Renegade Paladin]

It was his deal with the Mechanicum, as I understand it. If he didn't cut a deal with Mars, the Great Crusade never would have left the Sol system to begin with, and by the time they discovered and conquered other human nations that had advanced technology, the Mechanicum was already dominant.

[Cikomyr2]

It was his deal with the Mechanicum, as I understand it. If he didn't cut a deal with Mars, the Great Crusade never would have left the Sol system to begin with, and by the time they discovered and conquered other human nations that had advanced technology, the Mechanicum was already dominant.

Kind of Deal with the Devil, eh?

Is there anything close to the AM in Stellaris? Cybernetics Spiritualists ?

[The Glyphstone]

Kind of Deal with the Devil, eh?

Is there anything close to the AM in Stellaris? Cybernetics Spiritualists ?

I don't think there is anything forbidding Spiritualists from going down the Cybernetic Ascension perk path, though it'll be harder since you don't get the bonus to Robot research/production of Materialist.

[LansXero]

H
Did the Emperor basically.. Spread the cult of the Adeptus Mechanics across the entire galaxy? Before the Great Crusade, the cult only existed on Mars, right?

Other Human nations had access to high technology, and a working understanding of it. But after the Emperor conquered them, the AM takes over all technological wonders and industry, and impose their superstition on the conquered population who.. For all intent and purpose managed well without all the silly dogma.

Like the guys who had alien fleshmasks grafted onto them so aliens could feed off their emotions and Sanguinus had to kill them to the last? Or like the guys on Failed Human Colony Nº Whatever that got wiped out? Or like the guys on the Interex who would've gotten wiped out as hard as the Tau due to being similarly naive? Or the many worlds that were sitting on STCs / Nuclear Weapons and yet had to revert to feudalism or barbarism? Or the many worlds like Davin, with space travel capabilities and yet in the thrall of chaos?

"well without all the silly dogma" indeed

[The Glyphstone]

That leads into a thought I had - Are there variants/deviations upon the Cult Mechanicus the way the Imperial Creed tends to sprout localized variants? The latter are still sanctioned as long as they hold to the core tenets, but does the AdMech maintain a stricter hold on its members' beliefs and practices?

[Cikomyr2]

Like the guys who had alien fleshmasks grafted onto them so aliens could feed off their emotions and Sanguinus had to kill them to the last? Or like the guys on Failed Human Colony Nº Whatever that got wiped out? Or like the guys on the Interex who would've gotten wiped out as hard as the Tau due to being similarly naive? Or the many worlds that were sitting on STCs / Nuclear Weapons and yet had to revert to feudalism or barbarism? Or the many worlds like Davin, with space travel capabilities and yet in the thrall of chaos?

"well without all the silly dogma" indeed

You can have their technological skill and understanding without their deviant politics

[Grim Portent]

That leads into a thought I had - Are there variants/deviations upon the Cult Mechanicus the way the Imperial Creed tends to sprout localized variants? The latter are still sanctioned as long as they hold to the core tenets, but does the AdMech maintain a stricter hold on its members' beliefs and practices?

Publically the Mechanicus is very strict on religion, but privately it suffers from the same problems all Imperial factions do in maintaining doctrinal purity. Most deviances aren't officially sanctioned the way the variants on the Imperial Creed are though as I understand it, it's more of an off-the-record type of understanding that exists only because Mars lacks the strength to enforce it's doctrine everywhere.

Stygies VIII canonically deviates from the core creed, in particular due to xenarite tendencies among the populace, but it's deviance isn't actually permitted, merely tolerated at best and punished when it is practical to do so.

[Artanis]

I don't think there is anything forbidding Spiritualists from going down the Cybernetic Ascension perk path, though it'll be harder since you don't get the bonus to Robot research/production of Materialist.

The synth ascensions also require the robotics techs and increase Materialist attraction, both of which are problematic for Spiritualists.

[Silverraptor]

Well, with the forum back up and running, a new TTS came out in that time. I mean, the video and all was good, but there was a moment that would was absolutely EPIC! I would just post a easy video here, but of course they had to add the ONE swear word into the whole song, so I'll just link it.

This way you don't have to try and pinpoint the exact moment in the original video.

[Wraith]

That leads into a thought I had - Are there variants/deviations upon the Cult Mechanicus the way the Imperial Creed tends to sprout localized variants? The latter are still sanctioned as long as they hold to the core tenets, but does the AdMech maintain a stricter hold on its members' beliefs and practices?

There absolutely are divergences, starting with the Mechanicum (the traitors who overthrew Mars and sided with Horus) and the Adeptus Mechanicus (the loyalists who were exiled to Terra and demanded a seat on the Imperial Council for their continued support of the Emperor). So technically, the Adeptus Mechanicus is the offshoot, rather than the 'true' church of the Omnissiah.

On top of that, there are different factions similar to the different Ordos of the Inquisition, each that have their own little spin on what they think the Omnissiah's great plan is meant to be. Similarly, the different Forgeworlds are very secretive and keep their knowledge away from others which causes further divisions among the Adeptus.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

If memory serves, the old Inquisitor game with the oversized minis had some material on the differing beliefs within the AdMech.

One of the central clashes I remember was about whether or not xenos technology counted as "good" technology. Or did it have to be technology created by humans. An expedition might be sent out to collect xenos tech, and then return only to find that the leadership has changed and the new management is a bit more human-centric.

I don't have the newest AdMech books, so I don't know if any of the Inquisitor material is overwritten by now.

The wiki references a "Moirae Schism" that appears pretty significant and led to the founding of an Iron Hands successor Chapter, the Sons of Medusa. Apparently they thought that there were patterns in the micro-fluctutations of the Astronomicon that revealed the word of the Omnissiah. The mainstream AdMech were not amused, but the Sons of Medusa were eventually recognized as a legit chapter, though it's mentioned that their current beliefs aren't quite the same as during the original schism. And they are still viewed with suspicion, for whatever that's worth.

[Cikomyr2]

If memory serves, the old Inquisitor game with the oversized minis had some material on the differing beliefs within the AdMech.

One of the central clashes I remember was about whether or not xenos technology counted as "good" technology. Or did it have to be technology created by humans. An expedition might be sent out to collect xenos tech, and then return only to find that the leadership has changed and the new management is a bit more human-centric.

I don't have the newest AdMech books, so I don't know if any of the Inquisitor material is overwritten by now.

The wiki references a "Moirae Schism" that appears pretty significant and led to the founding of an Iron Hands successor Chapter, the Sons of Medusa. Apparently they thought that there were patterns in the micro-fluctutations of the Astronomicon that revealed the word of the Omnissiah. The mainstream AdMech were not amused, but the Sons of Medusa were eventually recognized as a legit chapter, though it's mentioned that their current beliefs aren't quite the same as during the original schism. And they are still viewed with suspicion, for whatever that's worth.

I am not sure if the big no-no by the establishment was "we are able to read message from the Astronomicon" or if it was "the message tells us that the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus should merge into a single cult!!"

[lord_khaine]

Or like the guys on the Interex who would've gotten wiped out as hard as the Tau due to being similarly naive?

You mean the guys poised to usher the galaxy into a new age of reason and prosperity, had the biggest threat to the galaxy not zerg rushed them while they were still building their federation?

[The Glyphstone]

What, exactly, where the Interex naive about? They were fully aware of Kaos and devoted to destroying it, which is why the Chaos gods manipulated the Imperium into wiping it out for them.

[Wraith]

Naive because, frankly, they were woefully unprepared to back up their claims of fighting Kaos.

While their technology at least rivalled, and in many ways was simply better than, that of the Imperium, they weren't any where near capable of fighting the war on the scale on which it needed to be fought, proven by the fact that they were eradicated by a single expeditionary fleet.

Say what you like about the Emperor, he did get at least one thing right; humanity was on a knife-edge, and every world not already militarised to fight against Chaos and Xenos threats was a world that could potentially doom the rest of the galaxy with a rogue psyker or some similar psychic incursion, and since the Interex were already allied with Xenos they were already well along that path.

Yes; He could probably have been nicer about it and just simply told everyone what was up starting with the Primarchs - "Chaos is a thing, and if you do X, Y or Z it only makes it stronger, here's how to stop doing X, Y and Z". Failing to communicate is a key trait of being the Emperor, as we've all noticed. He wasn't wrong, however, that if people couldn't be persuaded to stop of their own accord then they needed to be forced to stop for the good of the rest of the galaxy.

[Forum Explorer]

Naive because, frankly, they were woefully unprepared to back up their claims of fighting Kaos.

While their technology at least rivalled, and in many ways was simply better than, that of the Imperium, they weren't any where near capable of fighting the war on the scale on which it needed to be fought, proven by the fact that they were eradicated by a single expeditionary fleet.

Say what you like about the Emperor, he did get at least one thing right; humanity was on a knife-edge, and every world not already militarised to fight against Chaos and Xenos threats was a world that could potentially doom the rest of the galaxy with a rogue psyker or some similar psychic incursion, and since the Interex were already allied with Xenos they were already well along that path.

Yes; He could probably have been nicer about it and just simply told everyone what was up starting with the Primarchs - "Chaos is a thing, and if you do X, Y or Z it only makes it stronger, here's how to stop doing X, Y and Z". Failing to communicate is a key trait of being the Emperor, as we've all noticed. He wasn't wrong, however, that if people couldn't be persuaded to stop of their own accord then they needed to be forced to stop for the good of the rest of the galaxy.

Fighting against Chaos is the wrong way to go about it, because Chaos is as strong as the strongest thing it can corrupt. In this case, the highly flawed and very emotional demi-gods and their legion of superhuman killing machines. The Interex's method was just fine in fighting Chaos, because at worst, it doesn't create an extremely powerful army that is vulnerable to being corrupted by Chaos.

The Emperor should've stuck to actual humans, instead of creating Space Marines. It would've been exponentially slower to create the Imperium, but he's immortal, he's got time.

[comicshorse]

The Emperor should've stuck to actual humans, instead of creating Space Marines. It would've been exponentially slower to create the Imperium, but he's immortal, he's got time.

I believe the big plan was to phase them out and use Imperial Guard for everything AFTER the Crusade was over

[Wraith]

The Interex's method was just fine in fighting Chaos, because at worst, it doesn't create an extremely powerful army that is vulnerable to being corrupted by Chaos.

Catch-22. You're powerful enough that you can make all the right noises about 'fighting Chaos' and can resist when Chaos notices and comes to recruit you, but not powerful enough to fight off the rest of the galaxy that HAS fallen to Chaos' sway and comes to collect your skulls.

The Emperor should've stuck to actual humans, instead of creating Space Marines. It would've been exponentially slower to create the Imperium, but he's immortal, he's got time.

The bit about using only humans to protect human interests is spot on; the Primarchs were supposed to had led armies of humans in the first place. There's a few plot lines that suggest that (apart from Magnus who was going to sit on the Golden Throne) the Primarchs were intended to eventually kill each other and become extinct so that humanities' destiny would be in the hands of humans... then the Space Marines were pushed off the production line at zero notice after they went missing, which was what caused all the trouble in the first place.

Same for the Interex. Had they gone onto a "total war" footing then they could have defended themselves from outside aggressors but only had demi-humans going rogue, rather than having to deal with rogue demiGODS like the Primarchs. Militarising solves one of the afore-said problems, and not doing it with Astartes makes it easier to contain the other.

The part about the Emperor having plenty of time isn't quite right. On the local scale, yes, kind of - he's the most powerful individual in the universe and his rise to domination was inevitable provided he didn't act like a complete dumbass (spoilers: he acted like a complete dumbass) BUT on a galactic scale, humanity was on a precipice.

Thanks to the birth of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar allowing the warp to clear and become accessible, then in only a handful of generations humans were going to become an increasingly psychic species and thus the threat of catastrophic warp-incursion was becoming exponentially more likely. *Someone* needed to get a hold of that situation because for every day that psykers were exploding and dooming a world to fiery death, was a day that humanity got weaker and the warp grew stronger. Any sufficiently powerful and educated leader could have done the task of uniting humanity and containing psykers, but at the time the Emperor happened to be the most knowledgable about the threat and had the resources available to do it sooner rather than later.

The race was on, not just to unite humanity before some idiot cultist like Kor Phaeron did it first and signed the galaxy up to the Primordial Truth but because significant parts of the galaxy were exploding while waiting for him to arrive.

[Cikomyr2]

Fighting against Chaos is the wrong way to go about it, because Chaos is as strong as the strongest thing it can corrupt. In this case, the highly flawed and very emotional demi-gods and their legion of superhuman killing machines. The Interex's method was just fine in fighting Chaos, because at worst, it doesn't create an extremely powerful army that is vulnerable to being corrupted by Chaos.

The Emperor should've stuck to actual humans, instead of creating Space Marines. It would've been exponentially slower to create the Imperium, but he's immortal, he's got time.

I disagree. I don't mind the creation of Supermen Primarch and theirs hordes of Space Marines spawns.

But Goddamnit. Be a ****ing father to them.

"A Caring Parent Figure is the Best Defense Against the Vileness of Chaos"

You know why the Emperor sucked so bad? Because he doesn't care about individuals. He care about the Big Picture, and his "sons" were nothing but warmaking weapons. He never took the time to grow close and make an effort to develop a relationship with them.

In fact, the very first thing he did to one of them was to go against his wishes and completely ruin everything that son ever cared for because of a political convenience.

[LCP]

The Emperor should've stuck to actual humans

You know why the Emperor sucked so bad? Because he doesn't care about individuals. He care about the Big Picture

how about 'the emperor shouldn't have created a galaxy-wide totalitarian meatgrinder that only serves to multiply human misery'?

"The Imperium is/was doing what has to be done" is the worst 40K take. It's literally buying into arguments that are presented satirically. No empire that fights wars with giant space cathedrals full of actual chain gangs hauling shells into place with actual chains is doing things sensibly or efficiently. No scaremongering about external threats makes sense if an empire then goes on to survive 10,000 years without the guy who claimed he was the only protection. Please don't read warhammer as pro-fascist.

[The Glyphstone]

how about 'the emperor shouldn't have created a galaxy-wide totalitarian meatgrinder that only serves to multiply human misery'?

"The Imperium is/was doing what has to be done" is the worst 40K take. It's literally buying into arguments that are presented satirically. No empire that fights wars with giant space cathedrals full of actual chain gangs hauling shells into place with actual chains is doing things sensibly or efficiently. No scaremongering about external threats makes sense if an empire then goes on to survive 10,000 years without the guy who claimed he was the only protection. Please don't read warhammer as pro-fascist.

In a way, that's the biggest satire of them all. The Imperium does everything in the most heavy-handed, excessively wasteful and over-the-top way they possibly could, and yet somehow it still works.

[LansXero]

an empire then goes on to survive 10,000 years without the guy who claimed he was the only protection

You do realize the Astronomicon IS the Emperor and it IS mankind's only protection to make warp travel happen at all and the side of the galaxy that is beyond that light now is all kinds of ****ed and for the short time it went off things, quite literally, went to hell, right?

[LCP]

Being able to use someone's corpse as a lighthouse doesn't mean that their ideology or decisions were correct.

[Cikomyr2]

You do realize the Astronomicon IS the Emperor and it IS mankind's only protection to make warp travel happen at all and the side of the galaxy that is beyond that light now is all kinds of ****ed and for the short time it went off things, quite literally, went to hell, right?

That's not true. It's just that the 40K point of view conveniently forgets that there was a time humanity travelled the stars.

They used the Necron Pharos as their intergalactic lighthouse. But I think the Emprah wanted us to stop relying on xenos tech. Until we used the Webway, off course.

[LansXero]

That's not true. It's just that the 40K point of view conveniently forgets that there was a time humanity travelled the stars.

They used the Necron Pharos as their intergalactic lighthouse. But I think the Emprah wanted us to stop relying on xenos tech. Until we used the Webway, off course.

Sure, travel the stars when the warp used to be way calmer without incursions and tyranids and awakening necron dynasties. And also, the Pharos that already blew up during the Heresy, and wasnt even working before that anyways.

Humanity travelled the stars on the back of advanced tech that then tried to wipe it out. Times change, the humanity of then wasnt as prone to becoming a psychic race as current humanity is.

Being able to use someone's corpse as a lighthouse doesn't mean that their ideology or decisions were correct.

And yet its shown as fact that when its gone the Imperium dies. Even if you could debilitate Chaos by going all peacy nicey, whats going to stop the Beast from tearing you in half? What, are you going to diplomacy the Orkz into going against their genetic mandate of endless fighting? And what happens when the Necrons eventually awaken?

[Saambell]

What, are you going to diplomacy the Orkz into going against their genetic mandate of endless fighting?

Funny, as when the Orks had an Attack Moon over Terra, they spent weeks doing nothing, until the humans attacked them, protected themselves in self defence, then sent down an ork ambassador. It proceeds to offer peace terms. Mankinds response was bloodthirsty and violent. The narrative directly calls the Ork as the most civilized being in the room.