Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[The Glyphstone]

Blanks feeling comfortable around each other is good design, that way they breed more blanks.



Given that and that you have a world full of blanks, are the "normies" the ones that are considered to have a problem? If the norm is that everyone is blank enough to feel comfortable around the other blanks, would the not blank people be the odd ducks?

Or is blank rejection societal? And if the society doesn't reject blanks can "normies" grow accustomed to blanks and not reject them outright?

In my game specifically, it's social conditioning. The normal people still feel uncomfortable/creeped out by the blanks, but they're taught that it is the flaws/impurities in their own soul causing that reaction to a more 'purified' individual. So openly showing your disaste or revulsion too blatantly is a big faux pas (and possibly dangerous since they're likely military or nobility).

[Artanis]

In my game specifically, it's social conditioning. The normal people still feel uncomfortable/creeped out by the blanks, but they're taught that it is the flaws/impurities in their own soul causing that reaction to a more 'purified' individual. So openly showing your disaste or revulsion too blatantly is a big faux pas (and possibly dangerous since they're likely military or nobility).

I'm imagining 10,000 years of propaganda that goes something like...

"Having a nigh-uncontrollable urge to drown your new baby? Found your partner standing over the crib with a pillow? That's not you being terrible parents, that's the Ruinous Powers trying to trick you into destroying a Pure Soul before they can grow up to become a mighty bulwark against the insidious power of Chaos! Bring your baby in for Purity Testing today!"

[Silverraptor]

Oh god, this blank talk has actually got me to remembering a bit from my college Philosophy class. I remember one of the guys we had to learn about said that the world wasn't actually perceived and we didn't interact with each other at all. He said that we were each an individual... I don't remember what he called it, lets call them fumerals for now. Each of us were one of these fumerals and we we unable to perceive and interact with the material world directly or with each other, and how we did navigate and interact in the world was this ultra powerful grand fumeral called "God" interacted with each of us and supplanted the information about our proximity and material world around us directly into our consciousness so we would know who and what was around us (Ignoring the fact that if his property of Fumerals not interacting with each other was established, then how did this rule not apply to the "God Fumeral"?) Anyways, this talk about blanks and how normal people just feel like they don't like a person because of an unconscious ability to know something didn't exist in the warp there but you could see it in the material world just reminded me on that stuff. Man, Philosophy is a pain.

(On the bright side, the philosophy teacher answered our bewildered and dumbfounded reactions to this guy with, "Look, you don't have to AGREE with what this Crackpot is saying. You just need to know why he's saying it." I really liked my Philosophy teacher! Hated the subject, but liked him.)

[LansXero]

This is a truth with modification though, Navigators are still around (and their houses are extremly powerful), so considiering that this is a resource similar to that I think the Imperium would try and find a way to make it work without diluting it.

The Navigator Houses and the use of their gene predate the Imperium though; they have such privileges because otherwise the Great Crusade would've died stuck on Terra. And even then, crap generic ruined house Navigators are very common, so even for the incredibly rare, incredibly necessary Navigators, dilution does happen.

[Fyraltari]

Blanks feeling comfortable around each other is good design, that way they breed more blanks.



Given that and that you have a world full of blanks, are the "normies" the ones that are considered to have a problem? If the norm is that everyone is blank enough to feel comfortable around the other blanks, would the not blank people be the odd ducks?

Or is blank rejection societal? And if the society doesn't reject blanks can "normies" grow accustomed to blanks and not reject them outright?

If there are enough blanks around, the non-blanks would probably naturally build a greater resistance to their instinctive disgust overtime. You know, like when there's an annoying nose around you, you end up tuning it out after a while and finally only notice it was there when it stops?

[snowblizz]

Or is blank rejection societal? And if the society doesn't reject blanks can "normies" grow accustomed to blanks and not reject them outright?

In the Ciaphas Cain books

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Cain keeps Jurgen around despite him being a disgusting slob and all manners of unpleasant. Eventually it turns out Jurgen is a low level Blank. Part of his "unpleasantness" seems to be the Blank thing as filtered by Cain's perception.

So some level of accustomed to is possible.

Caveat: I may be mixing my persons up, though the scenario does happen, becasue part of me is thinking "Eisenhorn" as well ?

The Navigator Houses and the use of their gene predate the Imperium though; they have such privileges because otherwise the Great Crusade would've died stuck on Terra. And even then, crap generic ruined house Navigators are very common, so even for the incredibly rare, incredibly necessary Navigators, dilution does happen.

Exactly. This is what I would call the "alcohol" scenario. Or as is sometiems said, if alcohol was invented today it would be banned. The only reason it is not is because it has such a long history in our societies. Compared to tobacco that's a much more recent arrival and is much more heavily regulated with an aim to maybe abolish it enitrely. It is not a perfect analogy. But the gist is something that has been there from the start can get a benefit that would not be afford to something newer.

[The Patterner]

In the Ciaphas Cain books [SPOILER]
Exactly. This is what I would call the "alcohol" scenario. Or as is sometiems said, if alcohol was invented today it would be banned. The only reason it is not is because it has such a long history in our societies. Compared to tobacco that's a much more recent arrival and is much more heavily regulated with an aim to maybe abolish it enitrely. It is not a perfect analogy. But the gist is something that has been there from the start can get a benefit that would not be afford to something newer.

I brought them up to show that the Imperim can stop itself from exterminating things if the thing is worth enough.

The problem with the alcohol analogy is that while alcohol and tobacco are essentially bad for you, navigators and blanks are essentially good for society.

The question becomes, will the Imperium understand how to properly handle this resource, and I think it comes down to what type of person has first contact, best case scenario, the planet will be used as a breeding ground, in many ways continuing as it has but under Imperial law.

Worst case, exterminatus or they are all just shipped away to different places and treated as a 'one off' incident.

I lean more towards a sligtly less positive version of the first one.

[Wraith]

Caveat: I may be mixing my persons up, though the scenario does happen, becasue part of me is thinking "Eisenhorn" as well ?

I think you're correct, as Eisenhorn and his retinue are a very good example of how people can and cannot get 'accustomed' to being around Blanks.

Eisenhorn himself describes it in detail with regards to Bequin. When he first met her, he found her weirdly repulsive - not ugly, but he realised that being near her made him anxious, grouchy and would develop migraines. After a little while when he figured out that she was a Blank - even as an Inquisitor, he had only heard rumours about such things and had to go away and do some research about it - he found it easier to tolerate simply because he knew what was happening and could therefore brace himself for it.

Decades later, however, he could hardly bare to touch her even with her Power Limiter turned on let alone when it was deactivated and her Blank Bubble was allowed to manifest. Partially because Eisenhorn himself is a psyker, coming into contact with a Blank is anathema but he could just about push through it if he really had to, whereas the blunted members of his retinue seemed more or less okay with it - or at least, didn't complain about it.

Strangely, we never really hear what Gideon Ravenor feels about it. He was a member of Eisenhorn's retinue and interacted with Blanks before and after his confinement into the chair both as allies and with it being weaponised against him by his enemies. He was also immensely more powerful a psyker then Eisenhorn and thus had more to 'lose'.

[comicshorse]

If there are enough blanks around, the non-blanks would probably naturally build a greater resistance to their instinctive disgust overtime. You know, like when there's an annoying nose around you, you end up tuning it out after a while and finally only notice it was there when it stops?

Indeed. There's a treatment to help people get over Phobia's which is basically just exposing them to it over and over until they just get used to the thing

[lord_khaine]

Bequin became loved by the rest of Eisenhorns retinue. Not just tolerated.
So yeah it is a good example of how people can adjust to being around blanks.
Or at least adjust to a specific blank once they get past the initial impression.

As for the planet of countless blanks.
I dont think the Emperium has the logistics in place to strip mine it for blanks, and send them out to random locations.
Or more specifically. It dont have information on where to send them. The places that specifically needs blanks are generally highly classified.
High level inquisitors mostly. Black Ships.

And so the actual need for taking them all away and sending them off to gods know where isnt directly apperant.
Thats why i find it more likely that initially, the high amount of blanks the planet has is mostly going to get ignored,
or just seen as a funny quirk.

Because in the grand sceme of things, a couple blanks isnt going to do much.
They dont do anything on the battlefield that normal soldiers dont do (die).
Yes they are immune to heretic witchcraft. Except even the most psyker heavy armies, like the Eldar,
still mostly kill people with sharp bits of metal. So being a blank doesnt matter. They are still just another warm body.

So honestly. What i would predict is that the Imperial Bureaucracy would blind roll on as normal.
Since it doesnt have any forms for [Planet of Blanks], it would get treated as likely a what, farming world?
So if it was coorperative, it would just get assigned a tithe of food and soldiers.
and then likely left for its own.

Its then afterwards that Inquisitors would begin to sweep in like the vultures they are. And hunt for retinue members.
But by the time that it came to official Inquisitor recognition that the planet had a valuable resource,
Then i find it more likely that people who think in longer terms would take charge.
And perhaps look into breeding programs. Or just subtly encourage people to have a lot of kids.
Thats likely a lot easier and just as effective.

[LansXero]

And perhaps look into breeding programs. Or just subtly encourage people to have a lot of kids. Thats likely a lot easier and just as effective.

Pre-Great Rift, sure. When half the Imperium is under daemonic siege due to missing the Astronomican? not so much.

Breeding, collaboration, training, sure. At anywhere thats worth anything. This world has remained hidden for a long time so its either:
a. out of the way, so irrelevant
b. just dropped out from inside warpstorms, so suspect and thus will become avoided, so irrelant.

The value is in the ruling population, not the world or its culture. Pariah-loving commoners are worthless, they'll get thrown into manufactorums and hive cities the same as anyone else. Depending on which imperial office takes charge, there maybe a better or worse life for the blanks themselves, but they are not people, they are resources.

[Forum Explorer]

Pre-Great Rift, sure. When half the Imperium is under daemonic siege due to missing the Astronomican? not so much.

Breeding, collaboration, training, sure. At anywhere thats worth anything. This world has remained hidden for a long time so its either:
a. out of the way, so irrelevant
b. just dropped out from inside warpstorms, so suspect and thus will become avoided, so irrelant.

The value is in the ruling population, not the world or its culture. Pariah-loving commoners are worthless, they'll get thrown into manufactorums and hive cities the same as anyone else. Depending on which imperial office takes charge, there maybe a better or worse life for the blanks themselves, but they are not people, they are resources.

Well that depends on when Glyphstone is running the game. I seem to remember him talking about the game before, and I think it predates the Great Rift.

[The Glyphstone]

Well that depends on when Glyphstone is running the game. I seem to remember him talking about the game before, and I think it predates the Great Rift.

Post-Rift, actually. As for 'where', I've claimed the 'Veiled Region' as the setting. It's no longer 'Veiled' due to assorted Warp shenanigans, and Rowboat's opened it up for exploration and colonization. So it's also on the Imperium-friendly side of the Rift.

As far as a breeding program, they actually already have one, set up by the local Mechanicum (and thoroughly in violation of the Emperor's pre-Heresy decree against research/study of the Blank gene, but that's neither here nor there). So if that was deemed necessary by the Imperium upon annexation, that's taken care of.

[Platinius]

The next episode of Astartes is coming!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCcpMW8fSs

[Haruspex_Pariah]

The next episode of Astartes is coming!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCcpMW8fSs

It's here!

Spoiler

Show

The story sure took a turn, but it's a good one IMHO. We went from rebels, to cyborg-psykers, to full-on Lovecraftian horrors/ancient alien civilizations.

And the first instance of voice acting in the series. Not that I could make out what was being said, but I think that was the point. At least I hope so.

Personally I think it was a good idea to have the antagonist be something not obviously related to an existing species/faction in 40k. It adds to the sense of mystery about the whole thing, which works for the setting. In fact, due to the almost non-existent exposition in the story, we're pretty much guessing and filling in the blanks from the start. Which I think is a compromise the creator had to make for workload reasons.

[Lord Torath]

One of the early commenters had a possible transcription. But it's now buried under 18,000+ comments.

Unfortunately I can't remember it much. One of the lines was about not being able to corrupt the astartes.

[Iruka]

One of the early commenters had a possible transcription. But it's now buried under 18,000+ comments.

Unfortunately I can't remember it much. One of the lines was about not being able to corrupt the astartes.

This was just posted. Seems like a good guess to me.

Spoiler: Orb conversation

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Orb Conversation

Orb 1: (with the inquisitor) “who’s here?”

Orb 2: “I have failed, brother”

Orb 1: “we have all failed”

Orb 2: “the Astartes deny our touch”

Orb 1: “we must return”

Orb 2: “break your seal” (possibly referring to the cage orb 1 is in)

Orb 1: “impossible, we will never survive”

Orb 2: “you must take them”

[Platinius]

I usually wouldn't share a reaction, but her lovely nerdiness just bewitched me^^


Enjoy!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

One thing that stands out is the utter brutality of Space Marines doing their job. Especially once they land on the enemy ship. And as it turns out, that's not limited to their enemies either.

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Being punched in the face by a Space Marine and then shot with a bolter is probably not how that Inquisitorial agent planned to spend his day.

[Renegade Paladin]

One thing that stands out is the utter brutality of Space Marines doing their job. Especially once they land on the enemy ship. And as it turns out, that's not limited to their enemies either.

Spoiler

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Being punched in the face by a Space Marine and then shot with a bolter is probably not how that Inquisitorial agent planned to spend his day.

Spoiler: Astartes Part 5

Show

That is how one properly responds to a psyker suffering possession, though. They can punch him in the face now, or they can fight a host of daemons on the command deck of their ship, their choice.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Spoiler: Astartes Part 5

Show

That is how one properly responds to a psyker suffering possession, though. They can punch him in the face now, or they can fight host of daemons on the command deck of their ship, their choice.

Spoiler

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Yup. It's a great scene, and captures the essence of the 40k verse in a short amount of time without a single word.

Ally is possessed. Contain him? Try to remove the entity? Nope. Left hook, followed by .75 calibre explosive rounds. That's not a response you can expect from a normal person in the real world, and is all the more effective for it. It's not just about being effective in combat, it's also the ability to make ruthless (by our standards) decisions on short notice. Brilliant.

[Silverraptor]

Spoiler: Astartes Part 5

Show

Yup. Every warhammer 40k expert I watched who did a reaction video on this have unanimously said that what they did was ABSOLUTELY the correct decision.

[Clistenes]

I think you're correct, as Eisenhorn and his retinue are a very good example of how people can and cannot get 'accustomed' to being around Blanks.

Eisenhorn himself describes it in detail with regards to Bequin. When he first met her, he found her weirdly repulsive - not ugly, but he realised that being near her made him anxious, grouchy and would develop migraines. After a little while when he figured out that she was a Blank - even as an Inquisitor, he had only heard rumours about such things and had to go away and do some research about it - he found it easier to tolerate simply because he knew what was happening and could therefore brace himself for it.

Decades later, however, he could hardly bare to touch her even with her Power Limiter turned on let alone when it was deactivated and her Blank Bubble was allowed to manifest. Partially because Eisenhorn himself is a psyker, coming into contact with a Blank is anathema but he could just about push through it if he really had to, whereas the blunted members of his retinue seemed more or less okay with it - or at least, didn't complain about it.

Strangely, we never really hear what Gideon Ravenor feels about it. He was a member of Eisenhorn's retinue and interacted with Blanks before and after his confinement into the chair both as allies and with it being weaponised against him by his enemies. He was also immensely more powerful a psyker then Eisenhorn and thus had more to 'lose'.

I wonder how proximity influences the feelings of disgust... I mean, if you never come close enough to a Pariah to enter their Blank Aura range, will you feel repulsed by them anyways? Like, let say Bob has a Blank Aura range of just two meters... If a person is four meters away from him, will they feel disgusted?

[Wraith]

I wonder how proximity influences the feelings of disgust... I mean, if you never come close enough to a Pariah to enter their Blank Aura range, will you feel repulsed by them anyways? Like, let say Bob has a Blank Aura range of just two meters... If a person is four meters away from him, will they feel disgusted?

The examples that I'm thinking of - Bequin and Jurgan - have a very clear 'bubble' around them where their aura has an affect. One inch inside their aura and Psykers are utterly shut-down, one inch out and Psykers can happily destroy the world with impunity. If you're not in the aura, you're not affected by it at all, which seems to include the adverse feelings to them.

That being said, there are examples where Psykers can look at a Pariah from across the room and they can "see" that something is wrong with them, whether they're in the bubble or not. So we probably go with the usual answer - it depends on the Blank in question, and it depends on who is looking at them, and it depends on the writer.

[Grim Portent]

In the RPGs their repulsiveness is represented by a massive fellowship penalty, so any and all social interactions with them are impacted. I'd say that being inside aura itself isn't required for their soulless nature to impact people's perception of them. They're subtly wrong at any distance and even over things like radios.

[The Glyphstone]

In the RPGs their repulsiveness is represented by a massive fellowship penalty, so any and all social interactions with them are impacted. I'd say that being inside aura itself isn't required for their soulless nature to impact people's perception of them. They're subtly wrong at any distance and even over things like radios.

They are weird and creepy at any distance, though the RPG also follows the 'bubble' method of defining a limited radius of their anti-Warp abilities and where being close enough causes mechanical penalties to other people's social rolls. FFG just wanted it both ways, I guess.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Is there any reason to believe that boarding torpedoes can/should be reclaimed after hitting the enemy ship? Or are they just single-use assets?

It occurred to me that anyone using a torpedo to board might have some trouble getting off the ship after completing their mission. Unless they're outright capturing it.

[snowblizz]

That being said, there are examples where Psykers can look at a Pariah from across the room and they can "see" that something is wrong with them, whether they're in the bubble or not. So we probably go with the usual answer - it depends on the Blank in question, and it depends on who is looking at them, and it depends on the writer.

Well yes, everyone else has an actual soul. The Blanks do not. That the psyker can see at any rate.

That's not really an example of the Blank "bubble" reaching indefinitely though. I'll try an analogy. Normal people are tiny sparks in the second sight, psykers are brighter and more easily seen. Blanks are abscense of light. You don't have to actively be looking at them to see this. If the psyker actively shines a flashlight (uses a power) onto people they can see much more, but a blank will still be a dark spot. Stand too close to the blank and the flashlight won't even turn on at all.

Basically the two things aren't mutually exclusive, you can "not-see" the blank from afar without being affected by the aura, which is different from being close enough to actually be affected.

If I'm making any sense.

That said, how anything really works or not is all up in the air anyway.

Is there any reason to believe that boarding torpedoes can/should be reclaimed after hitting the enemy ship? Or are they just single-use assets?

It occurred to me that anyone using a torpedo to board might have some trouble getting off the ship after completing their mission. Unless they're outright capturing it.

Sorta think that falls under "let's not scratch the surface too much" as usual with 40k. Almost all technology seems to be irreplacable yet strangly never in short supply. It seems feasible in some cases to recover the assets, a bit liek Droppods I imagine, recover when we can if we can. Yea I do wonder about returning the boarders too now.

IIRC from Battlefleet Gothic boarding torpedoes along with teleport attacks were more surgical strikes than outright capture the ship occasions. I don't quite remember the boarding stuff now except that there was some and everyone seemed to have bonuses of various kinds! Be an Ork, Space Marine, Chaos ships were dangrous etc etc etc.

[comicshorse]

Is there any reason to believe that boarding torpedoes can/should be reclaimed after hitting the enemy ship? Or are they just single-use assets?

It occurred to me that anyone using a torpedo to board might have some trouble getting off the ship after completing their mission. Unless they're outright capturing it.

I always assumed that boarding torpedo's, having smashed their way into a space ship, would be in no condition to do that again. If recovered at all its so they can be stripped off anything valuable (impact cushioning material maybe) to be put into new torpedo's

Yep. Pretty much if you come aboard by boarding torpedo's you're options are take the ship or die gloriously destroying it (though I suppose in real emergencies they could try hijacking any fighters/ shuttles/escape pods the ship has lying around)

[Wraith]

It occurred to me that anyone using a torpedo to board might have some trouble getting off the ship after completing their mission. Unless they're outright capturing it.

As far as I am aware, this is the difference between a boarding torpedo and a drop-pod. There are some lines in the HH novels - Betrayer in particular, is the one I remember - that says drop-pods are recoverable, and can also be used in ship-to-ship combat.

In on the the short stories related to Betrayer - The Butcher's Nails - it similarly has Angron board an Eldar ship via torpedo and then, having murdered everyone aboard, nonchalantly calls for a Thunderhawk to come and pick him up. The implication is that they were going to blow the Eldar ship up and eradicate it, and they didn't care about what was left behind.