Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[lord_khaine]

That's not really an example of the Blank "bubble" reaching indefinitely though. I'll try an analogy. Normal people are tiny sparks in the second sight, psykers are brighter and more easily seen. Blanks are abscense of light. You don't have to actively be looking at them to see this. If the psyker actively shines a flashlight (uses a power) onto people they can see much more, but a blank will still be a dark spot. Stand too close to the blank and the flashlight won't even turn on at all.

Thats a pretty good analogy.

[Renegade Paladin]

Is there any reason to believe that boarding torpedoes can/should be reclaimed after hitting the enemy ship? Or are they just single-use assets?

It occurred to me that anyone using a torpedo to board might have some trouble getting off the ship after completing their mission. Unless they're outright capturing it.

They could steal escape pods, parasite craft, or neutralize the defense batteries around a hangar and call for extraction. In extremis, Space Marines can survive vacuum; they could jump out into the void and get picked up later.

[Forum Explorer]

They could steal escape pods, parasite craft, or neutralize the defense batteries around a hangar and call for extraction. In extremis, Space Marines can survive vacuum; they could jump out into the void and get picked up later.

I think in one of the Space Wolf books they board via torpedoes, but then knock out the shields so they can be teleported back out.

[Platinius]

I found this nice collection of Space Hulk cinematics.
Discuss and Enjoy!

[Renegade Paladin]

I found this nice collection of Space Hulk cinematics.
Discuss and Enjoy!

"1000 Blood Angels deployed. Survivors: 51." So the whole chapter, then.

[Cikomyr2]

"1000 Blood Angels deployed. Survivors: 51." So the whole chapter, then.

The last 51 must be level 20 though

[LeSwordfish]

When a new marine is recruited, with the intention of becoming a primaris marine, do they do time as a Scout first? The codex seems almost intentionally cagey on the subject - but a scout's not got all the implants, right? So presumably the ones that make you "Primaris" could be implanted after the end of the scout process? Do any of the books clarify this?

Also, the Dante audiobook is 99p right now. Is it any good?

[Lord Torath]

I was under the impression that scouts were fully-implanted but not necessarily fully developed. But my fluff knowledge involves mostly the 2nd Edition fluff and a bit from the Deathwatch RPG.

[Avaris]

I was under the impression that scouts were fully-implanted but not necessarily fully developed. But my fluff knowledge involves mostly the 2nd Edition fluff and a bit from the Deathwatch RPG.

My recollection is that they are missing some of the later organs, particularly the black carapace? Which is why they don’t wear full power armour.

[Clistenes]

When a new marine is recruited, with the intention of becoming a primaris marine, do they do time as a Scout first? The codex seems almost intentionally cagey on the subject - but a scout's not got all the implants, right? So presumably the ones that make you "Primaris" could be implanted after the end of the scout process? Do any of the books clarify this?

Also, the Dante audiobook is 99p right now. Is it any good?

Belisarius Cawl's original batch seemed to have received a VR training exclusively, so there probably weren't scouts, just increasingly difficult scenarios they had to go through; no point having them live a simulation were they fought lesser foes in carapace armor...

But latter batches would follow the traditions of the chapter they belong too.

[Cikomyr2]

So I was watching some 40K theories about the Grey Knights, and it got me pondering about the origin of their geneseeds.

I mean, the whole thing about them geneseeds coming straight from the Emperor is, in my opinion... Silly? Propagandish? If the Emprah could make geneseed from his own stock, why bother with the Primarch as base for geneseeds?

So instead, what if the Grey Knight's geneseed originated from the Thousand Sons?

Do we know if the Thousand Son's propensity to mutations struck all Marines demographics, or only the non psykers?

Because we could maybe explain the Grey Knights being immune from the curse of the Thousand Sons by either their extremely rigorous testing of candidates, or maybe the curse does not manifest when the recipient of the geneseed is already a psyker, and therefore compatible?

Also, we'd need to explain why the Successor Chapter of the Grey Knights, the Exorcists, also dont have mutations. Since all Exorcist neophytes have to become a Daemonhost and be purged first, they are immune to Warp stuff, and therefore considered "safe" from mutation.

Or is there lore that directly conflicts what I said? After all, wasnt the first Grey Knight Chaptermaster a Thousand Son Captain?

[Lord Raziere]

About that:
its been implied that the Blood Ravens is loyalist Thousand Sons. thing is, their origins are also secret, and who keeps that secret, purged their secrets from being revealed? The Ordo Malleus. guess who works for the Ordo Malleus: The Grey Knights.

Blood Ravens also maintain unusually close relations with the Grey Knights, since they're both psyker-based chapters, Grey Knights feel comfortable with letting them know of their existence. they worked together at least once on Kronus, and not with other Imperial forces.

So....unusually close bond because both are psykers? Or do the Grey Knights just not want their secret heritage of being Magnus's kids to get out while also being soft on their potential successor chapter?

you make the call.

[Renegade Paladin]

Astartes generally know about the Grey Knights. The Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels certainly all know about them. What they're willing to kill to keep secret is Daemons. If your average Guardsman saw a Grey Knight he wouldn't know him from any other Marine; the trouble is that a Guardsman who sees a Grey Knight is probably in a warzone with Daemons and therefore saw the Daemons.

[Cheesegear]

So instead, what if the Grey Knight's geneseed originated from the Thousand Sons?

The video you watched was old and/or bad.

8 Founding Grand Masters;
Janus/Ianius (Revuel Arvida) - Thousand Son, became the first Supreme Grand Master after the incident with Malcador and binding his soul with Magnus. Probably one of my favourite characters in all of the Heresy era...Second only to my boi, Alexis Polux.

Tylos Rubio - Ultramarine
Vardas Ison - Blood Angel
Severian - Luna Wolf/Son of Horus
Epimetheus/The Nemean - Dark Angel
A Raven Guard - Unclear identity.
A Night Lord - Unclear identity.
A Space Wolf - Unclear identity.

Garviel Loken/Cerberus (Son of Horus) was offered a position, but refused.

The geneseed is an amalgamation of the Legions' Psykers, with a little bit of Warp thrown in. Very similar to how the Emperor created the Primarchs.

[Wraith]

Do we know if the Thousand Son's propensity to mutations struck all Marines demographics, or only the non psykers?

The curse affected all marines equally. Ahzek Ahriman had a brother, Ohrmuzd, who was a non-Psyker who succumbed to the Fleshchange, as was Revuel Arvida - though he was saved in the nick of time thanks to the intervention of an arcane ritual overseen by Jaghatai Khan and Malcador.

Psykers were a bit better at resisting the change due to their mental discipline and their inherent power, but it was still there and they were just better equipped to hold it back for a time. Even some members of the First Company, arguably the most accomplished and powerful of the TS's psykers, were taken by the change on more than one occasion.

Also, we'd need to explain why the Successor Chapter of the Grey Knights, the Exorcists, also dont have mutations. Since all Exorcist neophytes have to become a Daemonhost and be purged first, they are immune to Warp stuff, and therefore considered "safe" from mutation.

I honestly think it more likely that the Grey Knights' geneseed is chimeric - a blend of multiple Chapters, especially well screened due to their secret nature but otherwise 'normal'. They don't have any known flaws, arcane or otherwise, which is what chimerising is supposed to do.

The establishment of the Exorcists as their successor Chapter is probably a matter of efficiency more than anything. The Grey Knights exclusively recruit psykers and turn them into Astartes, but at some point they've probably picked up some Aspirants who are physically suitable for the process but are psychically insignificant - it's a shame to send them back home or dump them on a mining colony somewhere, so why not found a new Chapter of non-psykers and make use of them as your pawns/allies/recruitment agency?
Certainly better than leaving them to be manufactorum workers, or worse, to leave them where a Traitor Legion might pick them up and recruit them.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm pretty sure that the Primaris additional organs are implanted before the Black Carapace. Fairly early on, if Lexicanum is to be believed.

I always assumed that the Vanguard were the Primaris equivalent of Scouts, but then that would mean you could wear Phobos armor without Black Carapace. Which as far as I can tell, isn't stated as part of the Phobos features.

So I guess they're like...really tall Scouts?

[Cheesegear]

I always assumed that the Vanguard were the Primaris equivalent of Scouts, but then that would mean you could wear Phobos armor without Black Carapace. Which as far as I can tell, isn't stated as part of the Phobos features.

Mark X Armour is designed to ablative, or constructive. Like adding a Hulkbuster suit to Iron Man.

Phobos Armour is the 'underarmour'. I dunno. Like a Gambeson? From the Phobos Armour you just add the extra plates to get Primaris.

Then you're like...****. Needs more protection. Then you put on Gravis Armour on top of that. So basically, a Marine in Gravis Armour is wearing three suits of armour, and becomes Full Plate.

There are no Primaris 'Scouts'. You're a Marine, and that's it. You're part of the Vanguard Squads, or you're not.
I think this is due in part to the fact that for old!Marines, there is a period of time where they aren't the best of the best and they can possibly die, and GW can't have that.

There are no 'grades' of Primaris Marine, unless you count 'Normal', and 'Veteran'.

[Wraith]

I'm pretty sure that the Primaris additional organs are implanted before the Black Carapace. Fairly early on, if Lexicanum is to be believed.

The black carapace is always added last, simply because if you know you're going to have to perform more surgery later, you don't want to have to use an industrial buzzsaw in order to get in there.

Primaris organs are unique in that they can be added later if required - even decades after an aspirant has transitioned from Scout to Astartes. That's the Calgarian Rite (among other names), a slightly modified version of the implantation process that turns Astartes into Primaris.

[hamishspence]

I was under the impression that, because the Black Carapace is applied very late, even "all-primaris" Chapters have regular scouts.

So - newbie becomes Scout (with Primaris implants, but still the same stat line as a "regular non-primaris Marine").

They only qualify as a "Primaris Marine" once they get the Carapace.


Even Primaris chapters have a 10th Company - with Scouts - The Vanguard Marines are attached to it - but the Scouts themselves are still there.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

There are no Primaris 'Scouts'. You're a Marine, and that's it. You're part of the Vanguard Squads, or you're not.
I think this is due in part to the fact that for old!Marines, there is a period of time where they aren't the best of the best and they can possibly die, and GW can't have that.

There are no 'grades' of Primaris Marine, unless you count 'Normal', and 'Veteran'.

So...what are they doing between their first implants and their last? That period can last about five years. They don't deploy to the field at all?

[hamishspence]

So...what are they doing between their first implants and their last? That period can last about five years. They don't deploy to the field at all?

The "Gaius Pollandus's career" description in the updated Codex Space Marines, of the life of a typical Primaris, makes it clear that they do go to battle before all their organs are fully ready. IMO, the implication is that he was a "regular scout of the 10th company" before the process was completed and he joined a Reiver squad.


For that matter - his career follows the old "First you're a Devastator, then an Assault Marine, finally you're a Tactical Marine before being advanced to the 1st Company" progression - only when he's done time as a Hellblaster in the 9th Long Ranged Support Company is he considered ready to be advanced to the 8th Assault Company, and only after he's done time there, as an Inceptor among other things, is he considered ready to join an Intercessor squad (Tactical Marine equivalent).

While Vanguard squads are normally the 10th company, all the regular companies have some Vanguard gear - so a marine in those companies can return to being fielded as part of a Vanguard squad when the situation calls for it. Pollandus did that a few times.


Some Phobos Armour squads definitely seem to fill the same niches as relevant Scout squads. Reivers could be thought of as "Assault Scouts" like the way the Blood Angels use theirs. Eliminators are very very "Sniper Scouts" in theme. I can believe that a Scout who was very good at sniping would be earmarked for an Eliminator squad once he got the Black Carapace.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

The "Gaius Pollandus's career" description in the updated Codex Space Marines, of the life of a typical Primaris, makes it clear that they do go to battle before all their organs are fully ready. IMO, the implication is that he was a "regular scout of the 10th company" before the process was completed and he joined a Reiver squad.


For that matter - his career follows the old "First you're a Devastator, then an Assault Marine, finally you're a Tactical Marine before being advanced to the 1st Company" progression - only when he's done time as a Hellblaster in the 9th Long Ranged Support Company is he considered ready to be advanced to the 8th Assault Company, and only after he's done time there, as an Inceptor among other things, is he considered ready to join an Intercessor squad (Tactical Marine equivalent).

Full disclosure, I have none of the current sources, save for the 8th Edition Rulebook (which I haven't read in ages).

If what you say is true, that makes sense. What bothered me most about mixed Oldschool/Primaris chapters is how their careers (for lack of a better term) would have to be segregated since there's no provision for mixed squads. But if they serve as Scouts in the same way, that would serve as a unifying experience at least.

[Cheesegear]

The "Gaius Pollandus's career" description in the updated Codex Space Marines, of the life of a typical Primaris, makes it clear that they do go to battle before all their organs are fully ready. IMO, the implication is that he was a "regular scout of the 10th company" before the process was completed and he joined a Reiver squad.

Turns out that that's true. A lot of the early material kind of gave the impression that Primaris Marines came out relatively fully formed (maybe that's 'cause Cawl had them on ice for a few thousand years and the initial, first-wave Primaris Marines actually were fully formed).
Actually, the book actually does differentiate because Ultima Founding and the following Marines; The Awoken, Indoctrinated and Ascended.

While Vanguard squads are normally the 10th company, all the regular companies have some Vanguard gear - so a marine in those companies can return to being fielded as part of a Vanguard squad when the situation calls for it. Pollandus did that a few times.
[...]
Some Phobos Armour squads definitely seem to fill the same niches as relevant Scout squads.

Squads are now deviated into; Close Support, Fire Support and Battleline.

Each of these roles also has a Phobos Vanguard variant, which Primaris Marines are expected to fill, when required.
Phobos Armour is not a 'new' Armour variant, it is simply less Armour. Vanguard Marines are in the Battle Companies. Because infiltrating is always called upon.
Common sense prevailed, and GW decided to switch up "Stealth/Infiltration is done by the most inexperienced and least equipped members of the entire Chapter." to every Marine is expected to Stealth when their Captain tells them that that's what's required.

Reivers could be thought of as "Assault Scouts"

No they couldn't. They could be thought of as Close Support Vanguard, because that's what the Codex calls them.
Scouts, would be Scouts. As you previously mentioned, Scouts (without the Black Carapace) still exist. They are not the same as full Marines with Black Carapace undertaking Vanguard duties. Up to and including how Captains, Lieutenants from the Battle Companies, and Librarians are all going to the field wearing Phobos Armour.

Eliminators are very very "Sniper Scouts" in theme.

That's because they're Fire Support Vanguard.

If what you say is true, that makes sense. What bothered me most about mixed Oldschool/Primaris chapters is how their careers (for lack of a better term) would have to be segregated since there's no provision for mixed squads.

Their careers do not overlap. The small!Marines that exist now are all over years old at this point, and their Chapter doesn't make new ones.
Chapters distrusting Primaris Marines (e.g; Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, etc.) is a storyline that has been dropped for quite some time, and now all Chapters make Primaris Marines.

Spoiler: New Chapter Structure

Show

Troops Battleline
Intercessors
Tactical Squads
Infiltrators*

Fast Attack Close Support
Reivers*
Incursors*
Inceptors
Assault Squads
Centurion Assault Squads
Bikers & Land Speeders

Heavy Support Fire Support
Hellblasters
Eliminators*
Aggressors
Suppressors*
Devastators
Centurion Devastators

*Vanguard Squads.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Their careers do not overlap. The small!Marines that exist now are all over years old at this point, and their Chapter doesn't make new ones.
Chapters distrusting Primaris Marines (e.g; Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, etc.) is a storyline that has been dropped for quite some time, and now all Chapters make Primaris Marines.

Hold up. So the whole "oh no we're gonna be replaced by Primaris curse you Guilliman" thing was actually true?

Damn. That changes...everything, really.

[Cheesegear]

Hold up. So the whole "oh no we're gonna be replaced by Primaris curse you Guilliman" thing was actually true?

Yeah. But turns out everyone is fine with it. Apparently.
Still waiting for Cawl to turn out to be evil. Another storyline that developed into nothing at all.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Huh. I'm beginning to get why some people had a strong negative reaction to the Primaris when they were announced. IRL, I mean.

I guess I should have seen it coming, when the named Space Marine characters started crossing the Rubicon one at a time.

Now I feel really bummed, that one day the last of the original Space Marines will be dozing off in a sarcophagus somewhere, and everyone in the Imperium just assumes that Space Marines always looked like that.

[Cheesegear]

Huh. I'm beginning to get why some people had a strong negative reaction to the Primaris when they were announced.

GW then spent ages and ages trying to say how it was all okay.
e.g; Gabriel Seth hates 'em. Like it's not all bad. Some Chapters know Primaris Marines are a bad idea. The Dark Angels ones apparently serve Cawl, *spooky hands*.

But, more and more GW writes stories about Primaris Marines, and some of them are actually good. And over time you realise that you don't give a **** about old!Marines anymore...Because they're old and dumb. Primaris Marines are literally bigger and better.
(It helps that GW is making old!Marines bad in the game, too. It's your choice to buy Primaris Marines, right? I mean...You don't have to if you don't want to. Old!Marines are still playable, amirite?*)

Now I feel really bummed, that one day the last of the original Space Marines will be dozing off in a sarcophagus somewhere, and everyone in the Imperium just assumes that Space Marines always looked like that.

I'm still waiting to see what GW does with Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Grey Knights have no Primaris Marines at all, even after their big update that made them one of the best Factions in the game. And Deathwatch, being a limited Codex as-is, apparently has so few options going for it that GW is going to shunt their upgrade to a White Dwarf - for better or worse**.

*Some old!Marines are playable. And Tactical Squads - arguably the unit that most players will have spent the most money on, because those are Troops - are not.
**In this current climate, the best thing GW can do is put more **** in White Dwarf (that people actually want to buy), and dump tons of free scenarios online.

[hamishspence]

Vanguard Marines are in the Battle Companies. Because infiltrating is always called upon.
Common sense prevailed, and GW decided to switch up "Stealth/Infiltration is done by the most inexperienced and least equipped members of the entire Chapter." to every Marine is expected to Stealth when their Captain tells them that that's what's required.

Not exactly. Between getting the Black Carapace, and transferring to the 9th Support Company, a Primaris will spend a long time in the 10th company, and throughout that period, they will be wearing Phobos armour.

They will be squads of Reivers, Infiltrators, Incursors, Eliminators, and so on - but not "Battle Company" work - not until much later.

Battle Company members all have Vanguard training (and when necessary, will "kit themselves out" as Vanguard Marines with the appropriate kit, but a lot of the time, when you see a "Vanguard Marine" it will be a 10th Company marine, in the process of developing the skills that prepare them to join the Support Companies, followed by the Battle Companies.

During this period they will typically be attached to another Company, but not be a member of it - they are still "10th Company".



So "Stealth/Infiltration is done by the least experienced members" is still true. It's just that experienced members will also do it - when absolutely necessary.

A "Member of the 10th Company in Phobos Armour - with no experience yet as a full member of a Battle Company or Support Company" who has been attached to that company - is the Primaris version of the old "Scout squads attached to Battle Companies" system.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm willing to accept (fluffwise) that Cawl couldn't wrangle the massive numbers of psykers he would have needed to test the process on Grey Knight gene-seed.

[hamishspence]

The small!Marines that exist now are all over years old at this point, and their Chapter doesn't make new ones.

Some chapters specifically only implant a portion of their aspirants with Primaris implants. So, until all those chapters stop that, there will be new "regular Marines" being produced.