Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Wraith]

I'm willing to accept (fluffwise) that Cawl couldn't wrangle the massive numbers of psykers he would have needed to test the process on Grey Knight gene-seed.

I'm not. Malcador managed it in about 5 years, and did it before anyone knew about collecting psykers en mass. Cawl had 10,000 years to find them, with the aid of the Inquisition AND the Black Ships, and he had the facilities to shove them in the fridge until he had cleared his backlog and could get around to the next batch.

My own headcanon that Cawl doesn't know about the Grey Knights, and that one day soon Kaldor Draigo is going to open up the box containing the Terminus Decree and inside there's just a picture of Cawl's face with a big red 'X' drawn through it.

[Cheesegear]

My own headcanon that Cawl doesn't know about the Grey Knights, and that one day soon Kaldor Draigo is going to open up the box containing the Terminus Decree and inside there's just a picture of Cawl's face with a big red 'X' drawn through it.

Here's hoping that War of the Spider reveals that Fabius Bile and Cawl are best friends, and have been sharing notes the entire time.

Also, Cawl makes AIs of himself. "They're not AIs because I said they're not AIs. Just trust me." OH OKAY. SEEMS LEGIT.

[Avaris]

But, more and more GW writes stories about Primaris Marines, and some of them are actually good. And over time you realise that you don't give a **** about old!Marines anymore...Because they're old and dumb. Primaris Marines are literally bigger and better.
(It helps that GW is making old!Marines bad in the game, too. It's your choice to buy Primaris Marines, right? I mean...You don't have to if you don't want to. Old!Marines are still playable, amirite?*)

The big loss IMO is Terminators. There isn’t really anything in the Primaris range yet that fills the same niche. Aggressors are the closest, but the lore of Terminators being the veterans of the first company, and the deep striking ability, makes them something special.

[Cheesegear]

The big loss IMO is Terminators. There isn’t really anything in the Primaris range yet that fills the same niche. Aggressors are the closest, but the lore of Terminators being the veterans of the first company, and the deep striking ability, makes them something special.

But, in-narrative, we know that Terminator Armour is more or less irreplaceable, and that the phasing out of Terminators was always inevitable as Armoury stock dwindled over time.

[Renegade Paladin]

But Terminator armor isn't going to just up and disappear overnight either. There were still many tens of thousands of suits, minimum, in the Astartes chapters at the close of the 41st Millennium; possibly more since the Dark Angels and their successors seem to have an outsized number of them. Even the most generous estimate of the timeline has a 200 year advance between the fall of Cadia and "present," so it would be extraordinary for a stock that's lasted 10,000 years to completely vanish in 2% of that time.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

But, in-narrative, we know that Terminator Armour is more or less irreplaceable, and that the phasing out of Terminators was always inevitable as Armoury stock dwindled over time.

Well, on the plus side, if the Imperial Space Marines do inevitably become 100% Primaris, it means that them fighting against Chaos will be much less of a mirror match.

"Who are you?"
"I'm you, but spiky and evil."

Though that does raise the question of post-Primaris Renegade Chapters...

GW could just declare them IMPOSSIBLE and be done with it, I guess. Unless they did that already.

[Cheesegear]

it means that them fighting against Chaos will be much less of a mirror match.

War of the Spider will almost certainly say differently.

Though that does raise the question of post-Primaris Renegade Chapters...

That's kind of what Cawl is doing. Except it never went any further than *spooky hands*.
Clearly setting up for Mechanicum II: Heretek Boogooloo, but, yeah. It's been two years now and hasn't amounted to anything.

[Kris Strife]

Do primaris have a melee focused unit yet? Or is the closest they get Reivers and lieutenants?

[Cheesegear]

Do primaris have a melee focused unit yet? Or is the closest they get Reivers and lieutenants?

Reivers and Incursors, and to a lesser extent, Aggressors.

Reivers are hot garbage.
Incursors are pretty good. Although that's mostly due in part to their Concealed Positions and being a Troops unit. They're mostly trash, except that they're more survivable than regular Scouts, and can do some decent damage with Gene-Wrought Might. But then immediately fizzle out.

I don't like calling Aggressors a Melee unit, unless you're really, really desperate.

Vicky Warsuits are amazing. But again, 'Melee unit' is a bit of a stretch, because it's really more a 'Do Everything' unit, and Melee happens to fall under 'everything'.

My understanding is that they kind of don't want Space Marines to Melee, and they want that to be the differentiation to Chaos Marines.
But, until GW phases out Assault Centurions, there wont really be a Melee unit that Chaos Marines have that's anywhere near as good.

[hamishspence]

Salamanders, at least, were notable as one of the few Chapters capable of manufacturing new Terminator suits.

[Wraith]

But Terminator armor isn't going to just up and disappear overnight either. There were still many tens of thousands of suits, minimum, in the Astartes chapters at the close of the 41st Millennium; possibly more since the Dark Angels and their successors seem to have an outsized number of them. Even the most generous estimate of the timeline has a 200 year advance between the fall of Cadia and "present," so it would be extraordinary for a stock that's lasted 10,000 years to completely vanish in 2% of that time.

There's ~1,000 Space Marine Chapters, according to the propaganda, each with up to 100 Marines who are able to wear Terminator Armour. Obviously some have more (Ultramarines and Dark Angels) than others (Carcharodons and Blood Angels, who keep losing them on Space Hulks) but "about 100" seems to be the average once you factor in outliers and HQ choices like Librarians and Chaplains who aren't formally part of the First Company.

Let's say for the sake of argument, 90,000 Terminator suits all told, discounting the Grey Knights whose are weird, and those lost or under maintenance, etc. Probably somewhat less, given how many Chapters have been annihilated by the opening of the warp, and those lost in huge actions like the Fall of Cadia, the Battle of Fenris, the Second Terran War, and so on.

Honestly, I'd like to see them get amalgamated into Terminator-only Chapters of Astartes, as they die off and are replaced by Primaris across the board. I think that would be a fun way to go - as Firstborn die off and aren't being replaced, they start to follow the example set by the Deathwatch and pool their resources because it turns out that their presence in an otherwise 95% Primaris Chapter is just dragging them down. Or hell, maybe that's what the Deathwatch BECOMES in the future - the last place where Firstborn Marines go to make up traditional Tactical Squads, since mixed Chapters can't accomodate them very easily?

It won't happen for a long time, not until characters like Dante, Azrael and Logan Grimnir are Rubicon'd or otherwise killed off and replaced with Primaris, but it's be interesting at least.

Salamanders, at least, were notable as one of the few Chapters capable of manufacturing new Terminator suits.

The lore tends to flip-flop on this quite a lot. At one point nothing more complicated than a boltgun could be built new, but sometimes the Imperium also has the technology to slowly mass-produce Plasma Guns and even starships. "Can't" is nowadays more like shorthand for "can't easily or quickly".

[Cheesegear]

There's ~1,000 Space Marine Chapters, according to the propaganda, each with up to 100 Marines who are able to wear Terminator Armour.
[...]Let's say for the sake of argument, 90,000 Terminator suits all told

Holy Hell. Most Chapters barely have 50 functioning suits. Generously, you might say that there are 50K suits in the Galaxy. Generously. And that's assuming that Chapters like...Post...Like...5th Founding are still getting access to Terminator Armour from the Heresy. Which...Like...Come on.

Terminator Armour, to me, always felt like a 1st- and 2nd Founding Chapter piece of equipment. And after that your Chapter was kind of lucky if it got any suits of Terminator Armour at all.

[Wraith]

Holy Hell. Most Chapters barely have 50 functioning suits. Generously, you might say that there are 50K suits in the Galaxy. Generously. And that's assuming that Chapters like...Post...Like...5th Founding are still getting access to Terminator Armour from the Heresy. Which...Like...Come on.

It's a bit wonky, I admit. A very brief look on Lexicanum makes no difference in most Chapters' FoC between Veterans and Terminators. Some specify up to 100 of either, others say 100 of both combined, some say it's just one or the other.

Canonically though, all Chapters have SOME Terminator suits because GW says that any Space Marine army can take Terminators regardless of what colour they are. You're right, it feels weird that the little baby ones founded in M40 somehow get given 100 suits of archaic, ancient, rare Terminator Armour from.... somewhere? But they apparently get a few - possibly gifted to them by the Chapter from which they succeed, or are 'apprenticed to' while their first generation of Scouts grow into enough Astartes to call a full Chapter.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Well, you know how players are.

Lore: [X] was a prized relic even during the Great Crusade, and in the 41st millennium even a First-founding-

Player: My custom Chapter has three of them.

Lore: This guy is a Primarch, the Lord Comm-

Player: He's the warlord of my 1,500 point army.

[JNAProductions]

Well, you know how players are.

Lore: [X] was a prized relic even during the Great Crusade, and in the 41st millennium even a First-founding-

Player: My custom Chapter has three of them.

Lore: This guy is a Primarch, the Lord Comm-

Player: He's the warlord of my 1,500 point army.

Can you blame players for using the options given to them by GW?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Can you blame players for using the options given to them by GW?

Of course not. But it does highlight where the fluff and the crunch necessarily diverge.

GW can do stuff like making the points cost prohibitive and having "one per army" stipulations, but do they really want to?

I don't mind if the Emperor's Pointy Sticks show up with 100 Terminators and a Contemptor Dreadnought. I might if such a (later-Founding) Chapter showed up in a Black Library novel, or a short story contained in an official Codex.

[Kris Strife]

Reivers and Incursors, and to a lesser extent, Aggressors.

Reivers are hot garbage.
Incursors are pretty good. Although that's mostly due in part to their Concealed Positions and being a Troops unit. They're mostly trash, except that they're more survivable than regular Scouts, and can do some decent damage with Gene-Wrought Might. But then immediately fizzle out.

I don't like calling Aggressors a Melee unit, unless you're really, really desperate.

Vicky Warsuits are amazing. But again, 'Melee unit' is a bit of a stretch, because it's really more a 'Do Everything' unit, and Melee happens to fall under 'everything'.

My understanding is that they kind of don't want Space Marines to Melee, and they want that to be the differentiation to Chaos Marines.
But, until GW phases out Assault Centurions, there wont really be a Melee unit that Chaos Marines have that's anywhere near as good.

That feels like an odd choice when two of the more noteworthy loyalist chapters are kind of big on the 'get into melee' aspect.

[Forum Explorer]

GW then spent ages and ages trying to say how it was all okay.
e.g; Gabriel Seth hates 'em. Like it's not all bad. Some Chapters know Primaris Marines are a bad idea. The Dark Angels ones apparently serve Cawl, *spooky hands*.

But, more and more GW writes stories about Primaris Marines, and some of them are actually good. And over time you realise that you don't give a **** about old!Marines anymore...Because they're old and dumb. Primaris Marines are literally bigger and better.
(It helps that GW is making old!Marines bad in the game, too. It's your choice to buy Primaris Marines, right? I mean...You don't have to if you don't want to. Old!Marines are still playable, amirite?*)



I'm still waiting to see what GW does with Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Grey Knights have no Primaris Marines at all, even after their big update that made them one of the best Factions in the game. And Deathwatch, being a limited Codex as-is, apparently has so few options going for it that GW is going to shunt their upgrade to a White Dwarf - for better or worse**.

*Some old!Marines are playable. And Tactical Squads - arguably the unit that most players will have spent the most money on, because those are Troops - are not.
**In this current climate, the best thing GW can do is put more **** in White Dwarf (that people actually want to buy), and dump tons of free scenarios online.

I take kinda the opposite approach to get to the same ending. I don't like Primaris Marines, and think their fluff of being bigger, better marines is really stupid. I won't enjoy any stories from their perspective. However, I already don't like stories about normal Marines. I find Space Marines really boring to read about. So Space Marines being replaced with Primaris Marines is really only a slight irritant, because I wouldn't like anything they did with Marines anyways. Basically, I didn't give a **** about Space Marines, so why should I be upset about Primaris Marines?

Here's hoping that War of the Spider reveals that Fabius Bile and Cawl are best friends, and have been sharing notes the entire time.

Also, Cawl makes AIs of himself. "They're not AIs because I said they're not AIs. Just trust me." OH OKAY. SEEMS LEGIT.

Yes, please.

Cawl is an AI at this point right?

[Wraith]

Cawl is an AI at this point right?

Technically he's 3 of them right now - he literally has 3 brains (that we know about) all of which are AI - and he's been others over the last 10,000 years as his long-term memory has filled up and he has selectively deleted big chunks of it to make room for new discoveries and ideas.

[Renegade Paladin]

Holy Hell. Most Chapters barely have 50 functioning suits. Generously, you might say that there are 50K suits in the Galaxy. Generously. And that's assuming that Chapters like...Post...Like...5th Founding are still getting access to Terminator Armour from the Heresy. Which...Like...Come on.

Terminator Armour, to me, always felt like a 1st- and 2nd Founding Chapter piece of equipment. And after that your Chapter was kind of lucky if it got any suits of Terminator Armour at all.

The Dark Angels are pulling them from somewhere, because all of the Unforgiven field a Deathwing.

[Cheesegear]

The Dark Angels are pulling them from somewhere, because all of the Unforgiven field a Deathwing.

Yeah. The reason that the Dark Angels have to note that, is because that's exceptional. Not normal.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah. The reason that the Dark Angels have to note that, is because that's exceptional. Not normal.

Yeah, I know that. I'm saying they drag the average up, not that all Marines can do that. (If that's what I meant to convey I'd have said so.)

[lord_khaine]

I take kinda the opposite approach to get to the same ending. I don't like Primaris Marines, and think their fluff of being bigger, better marines is really stupid. I won't enjoy any stories from their perspective. However, I already don't like stories about normal Marines. I find Space Marines really boring to read about. So Space Marines being replaced with Primaris Marines is really only a slight irritant, because I wouldn't like anything they did with Marines anyways. Basically, I didn't give a **** about Space Marines, so why should I be upset about Primaris Marines?

Yes! i dont like Space Marines to start with. But for some weird reason i still dislike Primaris Marines even more
I dont know.. it was seemingly like "Space Marines are not special enough, so we are making these Special, Special Marines.."

[hamishspence]

And that's assuming that Chapters like...Post...Like...5th Founding are still getting access to Terminator Armour from the Heresy. Which...Like...Come on.

The Fire Angels from Babab War are a very late founding (25th). It says that the adepts of Mars supplied them with their Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders at founding, but, compared to really old chapters, they don't have as many.

So the notion that late founding Chapters will have less Terminator Armour than new chapters is accurate - but they still get some.

I would guess that only the early patterns of Terminator armour are ultra-rare and irreplaceable, with "regular" terminator armour being the least rare and the only one still manufactured by Forgeworlds for new chapters.

Canonically though, all Chapters have SOME Terminator suits because GW says that any Space Marine army can take Terminators regardless of what colour they are. You're right, it feels weird that the little baby ones founded in M40 somehow get given 100 suits of archaic, ancient, rare Terminator Armour from.... somewhere? But they apparently get a few - possibly gifted to them by the Chapter from which they succeed, or are 'apprenticed to' while their first generation of Scouts grow into enough Astartes to call a full Chapter.

Or directly supplied by the Adepts of Mars.

[Platinius]

As always it is a question of production and logistics.

The means to mass-produce Termi armour is lost, but they can be build artisanally, meaning by an expert.

Consider this, pre-heresy they had build one big beautiful Termi armour making factory on Mars. And back then there was no need to build more than one since it supplied all the legions and would in time have replaced all standard power armour with Termi armour. (That is my head canon at least)
Then the Horus Heresy happened.

It is my understanding that much of Mars is inaccessible because of Chaos, heretecs etc and (this is my headcanaon) the Termi Armour production facilities are either on the inaccessible side or outright destroyed during the HH. Nevermind all the other facilities lost to the Imperium that are also worthy targets for rebuilding or reconquest.


There are more reasons why the Termi Armour production facilities haven't been rebuild or reconquered, but it all boils down to 1 reason: They are just not a priority.
Termi armour is just not a priority since for the same effort you can build starship guns that can do orbital bombardments and defend your ship from being boarded and such things.
The Imperium cannot afford to interrupt production on standard gear and even at that Mars is badly behind its schedule.


Another thing, I like to think that Terminator Armour wearing marines that get wounded or killed are teleported back since a ship that has terminators likely also has a Teleportarium. That way, most Termi Armour gets saved even if the wielder is not. And with standard marines, why would you not teleport their remains back if they are dead already?
So when Dante got his Blood Angels almost annihilated on a Space Hulk that one time they still managed to get out most of the gear they send in.



Edit for missing word(s)

[Wraith]

There are more reasons why the Termi Armour production facilities haven't been rebuild or reconquered, but it all boils down to 1 reason: They are just not a priority.
Termi armour is just not a priority since for the same effort you can build starship guns that can do orbital bombardments and defend your ship from being boarded and such things.
The Imperium cannot afford to interrupt production on standard gear and even at that Mars is badly behind its schedule.

The problem with this is that exactly the same description applies to Power Armour, and Astartes in general. The Imperium can make 1 Space Marine in Power Armour or - it has been estimated in our own Fluff threads - they could train and equip approximately 2- to 3,000 more Imperial Guardsmen.

It's not an issue that the Imperium doesn't want to make more Terminator Armour, because as far as they're concerned each one is a holy relic designed by the Emperor Himself in aeons past, regardless of how expensive and inefficient it is. They simply don't have the know-how to keep up with demand.

Another thing, I like to think that Terminator Armour wearing marines that get wounded or killed are teleported back since a ship that has terminators likely also has a Teleportarium. That way, most Termi Armour gets saved even if the wielder is not. And with standard marines, why would you teleport their remains back if they are dead already?
So when Dante got his Blood Angels almost annihilated on a Space Hulk that one time they still managed to get out most of the gear they send in.

A possibility for sure, but probably quite a bit less reliable that you'd think. In the Night Lords trilogy, the third act of the third book makes quite a big point about how the NL squad manages to capture and repurpose a set of Terminator Armour for their big confrontation at the end of the story, so it's not really the case that they can just be teleported back whenever the owners feel like it.
Similarly, in the Space Hulk game one of the mission objectives is to go in and retrieve a suit of relic Terminator Armour that's been lost for hundreds of years, because there was no other way to get it out.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that there's plenty of ways to lose a suit of armour other than just the occupant being killed or being badly damaged.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that there's plenty of ways to lose a suit of armour other than just the occupant being killed or being badly damaged.

The usual way to lose Terminator Armour, is simply by repairing them. Repairing them isn't - usually - a problem (Salamanders and Iron Hands are canonically exceptional at repairing Terminator Armour). The problem is making new suits.

Two Terminators come back from battle with damaged armour. The Marines inside are relatively okay.
In order to fix one suit of Terminator Armour, they have to rip the functional parts out of the other suit. Basically creating an unusable suit in order to make one functional again.

[Renegade Paladin]

Don't the Space Hulk games make a point of carrying on about how you have to do it this way and use boarding torpedoes because the Warp interference in the Hulk makes teleportation impossible?

[Cheesegear]

Don't the Space Hulk games make a point of carrying on about how you have to do it this way and use boarding torpedoes because the Warp interference in the Hulk makes teleportation impossible?

Shields have also been known to disrupt Teleportation. Although classic Black Library, it's really inconsistent.

[Cikomyr2]

There's ~1,000 Space Marine Chapters, according to the propaganda, each with up to 100 Marines who are able to wear Terminator Armour. Obviously some have more (Ultramarines and Dark Angels) than others (Carcharodons and Blood Angels, who keep losing them on Space Hulks) but "about 100" seems to be the average once you factor in outliers and HQ choices like Librarians and Chaplains who aren't formally part of the First Company.

Let's say for the sake of argument, 90,000 Terminator suits all told, discounting the Grey Knights whose are weird, and those lost or under maintenance, etc. Probably somewhat less, given how many Chapters have been annihilated by the opening of the warp, and those lost in huge actions like the Fall of Cadia, the Battle of Fenris, the Second Terran War, and so on.

Honestly, I'd like to see them get amalgamated into Terminator-only Chapters of Astartes, as they die off and are replaced by Primaris across the board. I think that would be a fun way to go - as Firstborn die off and aren't being replaced, they start to follow the example set by the Deathwatch and pool their resources because it turns out that their presence in an otherwise 95% Primaris Chapter is just dragging them down. Or hell, maybe that's what the Deathwatch BECOMES in the future - the last place where Firstborn Marines go to make up traditional Tactical Squads, since mixed Chapters can't accomodate them very easily?

It won't happen for a long time, not until characters like Dante, Azrael and Logan Grimnir are Rubicon'd or otherwise killed off and replaced with Primaris, but it's be interesting at least.



The lore tends to flip-flop on this quite a lot. At one point nothing more complicated than a boltgun could be built new, but sometimes the Imperium also has the technology to slowly mass-produce Plasma Guns and even starships. "Can't" is nowadays more like shorthand for "can't easily or quickly".

I'd say Blood Ravens probably also have a great many Terminator armor since they most likely keep "finding them"