Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Forum Explorer]

This is a terrible idea in a non-fascist, non-authoritarian context. If the Drakes captain feels any responsibility to his troops, he can't do this. This is the opposite of the A Team.

It's the only option that actually shows loyalty to the Imperium. Any other action proves the Custodes right and thus makes it so at best the Drake Primaris successfully rebel and become either Renegades or followers of Chaos.

Because the Captain's loyalty should be to the Imperium first, not his troops. If it isn't, then he's likely going to fall to Chaos on a long enough timescale anyways.

[Adrastos42]

It might not have been the right, fair, most sensible or most likely to succeed option, but I figure from the Imperium's point of view the right thing for the captain to do was surrender immediately while protesting innocence. Then they can try and argue for a suitable punishment and test of their dedication such as a penitence crusade, rather than immediate execution.

Totally unfair of course, but this is 40k.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

To be clear, I think Tyvar made a mistake in shooting first. That absolutely ended any possibility of the Primaris even considering surrender. Which is what he wanted them to do.

I get that he's a golden boy with a big stick and expects people to obey him without question, but this isn't some drunk wandering into a restricted portion of the Imperial Palace. These are Primaris Space Marines, he could have made a better effort to talk them down.

I do believe that he made the right decision, even if his handling of it was flawed. Given the situation, landing on the planet with Space Marines in Brazen Drakes colors was just not an option. And leaving them fully armed on the ships while the Custodes and Sisters went down to the planet was also not an option. Disarming and detaining them was the logical move, and the safest one.

But they didn't comply immediately, so...bolter goes boom boom

[bluntpencil]

The Imperium is the worst regime ever. It's a hellish dystopia.

The latest story is a reminder of this.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Is there a canon account of Space Marines employing (reasonably) successful anti-Titan tactics? Other than calling in their own Titan of course.

First thing comes to mind is air support. I don't think Astartes ground forces stand much of a chance, but I could be wrong.

[hamishspence]

I'd speculate that the various Super-Heavy tanks and fliers (Fellglaive, Fellblade, Thunderhawk Gunship, Stormbird, Mastodon) could all at least contribute to Titan-busting when fielded in large numbers.

[LeSwordfish]

Titanhammer squads! Terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers, plus a vortex grenade. In the Apocalypse formation they were lead by Lysander, but i'm not sure if the canon is that they're always an Imperial Fists thing.

[hamishspence]

Their Lexicanum entry does suggest that several other chapters have followed the Imperial Fists' example.

[snowblizz]

Is there a canon account of Space Marines employing (reasonably) successful anti-Titan tactics? Other than calling in their own Titan of course.

First thing comes to mind is air support. I don't think Astartes ground forces stand much of a chance, but I could be wrong.

In Storm of Iron [someones] Terminators ambush [someones] Titans. I hilariously enough at this moment can't remember which side was Chaos or Imperials right now.

It uses terrain (a ravine) to get close to and "within" the titans sphere of influence so to speak.

[Wraith]

Nathaniel Garro once described Custodians as lions, comparing them to Astartes who are more like wolves.

Astartes are smaller and not as strong individually, but their key power lies in the unity and coordination of the "pack". Whereas a Custodian could fight and kill a large number of 'wolves', they were always just one man fighting against many and even they wouldn't hold back the tide - many of the wolves would die, but the pack would endure.

Garro's metaphor isn't inaccurate, but he is wrong. Custodes aren't lions, they're freight trains.

They're huge, powerful, nigh-unstoppable at full-tilt without also destroying a significant piece of the landscape around them, and they only go in one direction, which is to directly combat enemies of the Emperor.

Not enemies of the Imperium; the Emperor. They see a problem and they just crash through it headlong, obliterating it immediately upon contact.
This may in turn cause problems - the man whose car was parked on the crossing and had it turned to an expanding cloud of sequin-sized scrap metal might well be very rich and have lots of angry, rich friends. They are very welcome to stand upon the track and shout at the train if they like; it's all the same to the train, it's very good at solving the problem of "there are things smaller than me standing in my way" and it can keep on "solving" such problems indefinitely... Or at least until someone nukes the proverbial track.

Herein is the moral of the story about the Brazen Drakes' Primaris recruits. They stood in the way of the oncoming train, and no amount of negotiation was going to convince it to change course. It's not right - they didn't volunteer to stand in front of the train, or even knew that they were standing on the track in the first place - but it's not the train's job to swerve around obstacles.

Is there a canon account of Space Marines employing (reasonably) successful anti-Titan tactics? Other than calling in their own Titan of course.

First thing comes to mind is air support. I don't think Astartes ground forces stand much of a chance, but I could be wrong.

In the Blood-Quest comic, a squad of Blood Angels managed to hide on a bridge and, when a titan walked past, jumped off and onto it's knee where they planted all of their krak grenades and melta-bombs. They ran off, detonated the explosives, and caused the titan to fall as it simply cannot operate on only one leg.

There were some caveats to that tactic - it was a daemon-possessed Titan so it had no defensive crew to keep away intruders, for example, so it probably wouldn't work in normal circumstances. Still, it proves that titans can be taken down with conventional arms, so long as you have enough of them and can get them in the right place.

Something similar also happens in the Warhammer 40k: Space Marine video game - Captain Titus grabs some Jump Packs, does a HALO drop onto a cathedral and murders everything inside. That would presumably work on a Titan, too - so long as he avoided the anti-aircraft fire (of which there was LOTS in the game) he could land on an upper-battlement, melta-bomb his way inside and fight to the command deck.

Alternatively, take the example of Reclusiarch Grimaldus of the Black Templars. He wanted to get on board a Titan to talk to its Princepts, but was just getting pissed off by the Skitarii Captain and cohort of heavily armed cyborg soldiers who were stood in his way, and made it clear that he would happily butcher every last one of them and fight his way through the entire Titan, bottom to top, on foot, if he had to.

Given what happens in the rest of the story, that seems to be a dangerous but otherwise entirely plausible plan of action. Space Marines making boarding actions against heavily armoured fortifications - be they fortress, Titan or Starship - is what they were designed to do.

[Cheesegear]

Garro's metaphor isn't inaccurate, but he is wrong. Custodes aren't lions, they're freight trains.

Noting that that's coming from Garro. A high-tier swordsman, from the Death Guard Legion with near-legendary resilience, even for his Legion.
Garro states that the Custodes he spars with could kick the **** out of him if he wanted to.

Not enemies of the Imperium; the Emperor. They see a problem and they just crash through it headlong, obliterating it immediately upon contact.

Chris Wraight's Watchers of the Throne exposits on this a great deal. Because 30K!Custodians have no reason to ever - ever - be on the table if their fluff stayed the same into 40K, and there has to be justification to put them on the table in sizeable quantities in order to make them a salable army.
(Meanwhile, Sisters of Silence get one box and two pages in White Dwarf)

Like, if 40K didn't dramatically change their fluff, your army would get access to one Custodian. One. And they'd be a White Dwarf article similar to Inquisitors.
Unfortunately, in 30K, Custodes are really, really, really popular for some reason, hitting all three boxes; Models look dope, fluff is rad, rules are sick. So gotta put 'em in 40K.

Given what happens in the rest of the story, that seems to be a dangerous but otherwise entirely plausible plan of action. Space Marines making boarding actions against heavily armoured fortifications - be they fortress, Titan or Starship - is what they were designed to do.

QFT. They enter through the feet and keep going 'til they reach the top.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Awesome. So there are multiple sources saying that getting up close and attacking weak points/boarding and smashing is a workable approach for Space Marines.

[Wraith]

Noting that that's coming from Garro. A high-tier swordsman, from the Death Guard Legion with near-legendary resilience, even for his Legion.
Garro states that the Custodes he spars with could kick the **** out of him if he wanted to.

I can't remember if it's in Flight of the Eisenstein or maybe it's Galaxy In Flames, but I distinctly remember a scene that depicts the moment when the Death Guard (or maybe the Luna Wolves?) turn on the Custodes who have been assigned to observe them.

There's.... 3 Custodes, I think? And they each take down a dozen Astartes before one of them gets his spear stuck in some guy's chest and several more shank him from behind while he's momentarily inconvenienced. This is while there is a literal ring of Astartes surrounding them, firing inwards with Boltors and they're deflecting bolts with the blades of their spears. It's one of the best demonstrations of just how powerful a Custodian is, and what it takes to bring him down.

Later on, it takes Argul Tal and a squad of Possessed in their war-forms to do the same thing - these guys are capable of tearing up Terminators, and even they take a bunch of casualties in the process.

This is also why I think that the "lion" metaphor doesn't do them justice. Lions are hunters who track their prey, chase them down and wait for exactly the right moment to pounce and get the kill.
Custodians have the authority and the ability not to need to wait - they're more like an elephant that has been built by SKYNET, they just walk forward and smash everything in their way. Almost nothing can resist them, and if smashing something causes more problems, just smash that too.

Awesome. So there are multiple sources saying that getting up close and attacking weak points/boarding and smashing is a workable approach for Space Marines.

More or less. It's more accurate to say that a Titan has virtually no weak spots itself, but the crew inside of it are just Mechanicus cyborgs and humans who aren't immune to bioweapons melting them, impact tremors turning them into jelly, or just walking up and shooting them in the face while they have their brain plugged into a keyboard and can't run away.
That it takes a squad of Astartes in exceptional circumstances, or a named Astartes Hero in order to even attempt it, suggests that it's not commonly attempted unless they absolutely have to.

Even Grimaldus preferred to go and steal the Oberon Ordinatus - literally a tank with a star-ship grade void cannon strapped onto it - and use that instead when he *actually* had to take down an Ork Gargant and he had no Titans of his own to do it with.

[Cheesegear]

Custodians have the authority and the ability not to need to wait - they're more like an elephant that has been built by SKYNET, they just walk forward and smash everything in their way. Almost nothing can resist them, and if smashing something causes more problems, just smash that too.

Custodians' training is far more similar to the World Eaters' or Night Lords; With the Blood Games. Anything less than total domination of your opponent, isn't victory. Which is pretty much verbatim what the Emperor said.

You fight to win kill. Whatever's left, is someone else's problem. Very Tenth Doctor. "I don't want to fight you. But if you make me, I will end you."

[bluntpencil]

Nathaniel Garro once described Custodians as lions, comparing them to Astartes who are more like wolves.

Astartes are smaller and not as strong individually, but their key power lies in the unity and coordination of the "pack". Whereas a Custodian could fight and kill a large number of 'wolves', they were always just one man fighting against many and even they wouldn't hold back the tide - many of the wolves would die, but the pack would endure.

Garro's metaphor isn't inaccurate, but he is wrong.

The thing that bothers me is that lions, like wolves, hunt in groups.

The metaphor doesn't make sense - the power of lion(esse)s lies in hunting in coordinated groups, too.

He should have said 'tigers'.

[Wraith]

He should have said 'tigers'.

Both species will be lucky to see it to the end of M3.100, it's a forgivable mistake as far ahead as M30.200

Then again, male lions tend to wander and live alone in their 'teenage' years until they find a pride, so maybe that's what he was referring to. Given the iconography of lions now, let alone in the 31st millennium when they're extinct and legendary, Garro probably wasn't thinking of a lioness to describe a hyper-masculine Custodian, so it more or less adds up.

Or possibly his point of reference is The Lion; El'Johnson, who was notoriously individualistic and self-sufficient. Since Caliban had 'lions', perhaps that's where he got the name and that's what everyone thinks of?

[Cheesegear]

The metaphor doesn't make sense - the power of lion(esse)s lies in hunting in coordinated groups, too.

[Male] Lions - like most cats - tend to hunt alone - if they hunt at all (especially younger lions who get kicked out of the Pride on threat of being eaten by the dominant male* also have to hunt alone).

Lionesses hunt in packs.

*Which could also be what he's talking about; Two male Lions fighting each other gets rather nasty and brutal - kinda like a Custode . Unfortunately, Lion challenges don't end with one throwing the other into a Wildebeest stampede. I wish they would. But they don't.

[Wraith]

*Which could also be what he's talking about; Two male Lions fighting each other gets rather nasty and brutal - kinda like a Custode . Unfortunately, Lion challenges don't end with one throwing the other into a Wildebeest stampede. I wish they would. But they don't.

Although there were notably few lions in actual Hamlet, there was a bear in The Winter's Tale. Custodes as a bear against Astartes wolves is also an apt metaphor.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I've been picking up bits and pieces of the Horus Heresy, and I'm beginning to wonder if it was ever possible for the Emperor to convince Lorgar he wasn't a god.

As I understand it, the Emperor wasn't shy about going around all huge and golden glowing, and using his OP psychic powers to wreck enemies left and right.

"I trained really hard" doesn't seem like a viable explanation, especially when even his genetically-engineered demigods are awed just by his presence.

The thing is, I think the Emperor could have easily kept his super-powers low key. He had the technology and the armies to hang back from the spotlight.

[Cheesegear]

I've been picking up bits and pieces of the Horus Heresy, and I'm beginning to wonder if it was ever possible for the Emperor to convince Lorgar he wasn't a god.

That wasn't so much the issue. The issue was that Lorgar was sycophantic with very, very low self-esteem. His...Personality Traits...Are what caused him to latch onto the Emperor, and worship him so highly. Thinking that if he praised the Emperor enough, that he fed the Emperor's vanity enough, that the Emperor would reward him. Because feeding vanity, is how you get on Lorgar's good side. So obviously that's how he treats everyone he thinks is 'better' than he is. Including Magnus, who like his Father, also told Lorgar to **** off. Magnus, being the only one who could actually save Lorgar - not the Emperor.
(Kor Phaeron did a number on Lorgar)

When Lorgar was straight up shown how to gain the Emperor's favour, he turned out to be the best at it. Unfortunately, exactly what he was doing, was enough to gain him Chaos' attention, and, unlike The Emperor, the Chaos Gods love sycophants, and very much do reward that kind of behavior.

It wasn't so much "The Emperor is a God." and lot more "Look how much I love my Dad." (That is, any Dad is better than Kor Phaeron.)
Later on, in Master of Mankind we learn that the Emperor almost literally doesn't give a **** about His Sons, and their love literally means nothing to Him.

Dorn basically has the same problem; He just wants his Dad to proud of him, refusing to acknowledge that his Dad will never be proud of him.

If Lorgar can be Dad's favourite, he's going to ruin the one who is.

The Horus Heresy, AKA; 'No Dad, How 'Bout YOU Go **** Yourself!'

[Wraith]

I've been picking up bits and pieces of the Horus Heresy, and I'm beginning to wonder if it was ever possible for the Emperor to convince Lorgar he wasn't a god.

The answer is mostly yes, but as Cheesegear described it would take the one thing that he doesn't want to have to do: He would have to get personally involved.

At first, Lorgar deifies the Emperor because the Emperor is all powerful, and gold, and shiny and magnificent. The Emperor can't not be those things because his entire regime is invested in his personal superiority and authority, and he kind of hopes that Lorgar will just grow out of it and stop being so naive. Or at least, to shut up and do it on his own time and not while he's on the clock and should be doing something more productive
So instead he sends Gulliman to do it for him, hoping that Guilliman's claim of "Dad told me to tell you...." would be enough.... But Lorgar doesn't answer to Guilliman and therefore that was a mistake on the Emperor's part, compounded by his own appearance at Monarchia where he cruelly broke Lorgar's trust in him.

This just proved to Lorgar that the Emperor is irresistibly powerful, like God should be.... But that he's just a Bad God who is an ******* to his 'sons'. So if Gods are *******s who are going to use him for their own ends, he reasons, he might as well go find another God - ANY other God - who will at least be honest about it and throw him the occasional bone. The Chaos Gods openly admit that they want Lorgar to murder trillions of people and perform sadistic rituals to exploit humanity and make themselves stronger - how is that any different to the Emperor, who does the same thing but claims it's for "the good of humanity"? They might be evil, violent and malicious... But at least they're honest about it!

Lorgar's faith is just irrational, there's no other way around it. He can't be convinced to be different, because it's the core part of his identity and his reliance on a Higher Power isn't rational.
As you suggest, the Emperor could force him to be different with his immense psychic power and alter Lorgar's brain... But that would mean getting involved again and thus getting to know Lorgar well enough to realise that he had gone off the deep end. All the Emperor cared about was that Pawn #17 was finally doing his job and had stopped whining about it, and by the time he knew otherwise it was already far, far too late.

The thing is, I think the Emperor could have easily kept his super-powers low key. He had the technology and the armies to hang back from the spotlight.

He'd already tried that - it resulted in the Dark Age of Technology and then Old Night because his subtle machinations weren't enough to prevent humanity from turning on itself after the warp closed in on them.
It's implied that he's tried to do it that way a number of times - in other millennia he *might* have used the names Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler and/or Jesus Christ, depending on who you ask - but each time it didn't work out because "an ordinary human being" wasn't enough to get the job done.

The 31st millennium is where he finally takes off the kid gloves and drags humanity to glory by the scruff of the neck. They'll do exactly what He wants them to do, or else; no more intermediaries, no more aliases, no more nudges and tweaks towards the right sort of history, just direct and ruthless instruction.

Admittedly, it seemed to be working out way better than before until he took the "omnipotent protector of humanity" thing too far and people began to draw their own conclusions.....

[Wardog]

The Imperium is the worst regime ever. It's a hellish dystopia.

The latest story is a reminder of this.

To be precise, "The cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" in which you should "forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods" (as the main rule book still tells us, even in 8th edition).

***

As for this particular incident:

Yes, I'm sure Shield-Captain Tyvar was acting "correctly" in accordance with Imperial law and policy.

But it does just confirm that Imperial law and policy is frequently stupid and self-destructive. Its hardly surprising the Astartes reacted badly given that they i) were outright accused of treason and heresy (rather than just ordered to stand down so they could be investigated), ii) Tyvar is explicitly prejudiced against them, and iii) killed someone in cold blood just for pleading with him. Plus, its just plain tactically stupid to start such a fight on the bridge - at the very least he could have tried to manuvour them into a less vulnerable location before attempting to arrest them.

Still, at least this provides plenty of canon justification for more Imperium vs. Imperium games.

Other thoughts:
I've got a small bunch of primaris marines from Warhammer Conquest, but haven't assembled them yet because marines in general and primaris in particular don't generally appeal to me that much. But this story is a bit of a hook that could get me more into them. Does anyone know if there is an official Brazen Drakes colour scheme?

More thoughts:
This story shows the Custodes and Astartes kinda sorta in a similar relationship to Commissars and Guardsmen. In which case - I wonder which chapter are the Catachans ;)

[The Glyphstone]

Do catachans have any actual personality as a people other than Everyone Is Rambo, except for Sly Marbo who is Rambo++?

[Lord Raziere]

Do catachans have any actual personality as a people other than Everyone Is Rambo, except for Sly Marbo who is Rambo++?

I mean....that kind of question, if generalized

Do (Organization) have any actual personality as a people other than Everyone Is (Hat), except for (Named Character) who is (Hat)++?

can apply to pretty much all of 40k. its basically nothing but a setting of hats being put on progressively harder the more powerful you get, with no one taking them off to be reasonable or well-rounded person. arguably because taking off the hat in this setting is something that can get you killed for not being like all the other hat-wearers.

[Renegade Paladin]

Other thoughts:
I've got a small bunch of primaris marines from Warhammer Conquest, but haven't assembled them yet because marines in general and primaris in particular don't generally appeal to me that much. But this story is a bit of a hook that could get me more into them. Does anyone know if there is an official Brazen Drakes colour scheme?

No. This story was the first the Brazen Drakes were ever mentioned, and it will almost certainly be the last, too. They do this all the time; when they want to show that something is really badass they have it kill a no-name Marine Chapter that was never brought up before and, now that it's destroyed, will never be brought up again (unless someone in the studio decides to give them a Primaris re-founding).

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I mean....that kind of question, if generalized



can apply to pretty much all of 40k. its basically nothing but a setting of hats being put on progressively harder the more powerful you get, with no one taking them off to be reasonable or well-rounded person. arguably because taking off the hat in this setting is something that can get you killed for not being like all the other hat-wearers.

Which is why Cain is such a fascinating character. He behaves outwardly as people expect, but we get access to his thoughts via his memoirs and they're hardly that of an ideal Imperial citizen.

Though I sometimes wonder if he's being completely truthful about everything. Even Vail, the in-universe editor of his work, seems to doubt him at certain points.

[Destro_Yersul]

Which is why Cain is such a fascinating character. He behaves outwardly as people expect, but we get access to his thoughts via his memoirs and they're hardly that of an ideal Imperial citizen.

Though I sometimes wonder if he's being completely truthful about everything. Even Vail, the in-universe editor of his work, seems to doubt him at certain points.

Cain's biggest blind spot is his own competence. In the midst of whatever current crisis is inspiring his enduring terror, he tends to forget about how good he actually is at leading and fighting. There's probably some unreliable narrator going on here and there, but it's pretty obvious that he never gives himself enough credit.

[The Glyphstone]

I mean....that kind of question, if generalized



can apply to pretty much all of 40k. its basically nothing but a setting of hats being put on progressively harder the more powerful you get, with no one taking them off to be reasonable or well-rounded person. arguably because taking off the hat in this setting is something that can get you killed for not being like all the other hat-wearers.

Fair enough. I guess I should have been more specific - I'm not sure how Wardog's question of "which Astartes/Primaris Chapter is like Catachans" can be answered when the Catachans themselves have no shared identity/personality beyond their visual motif.

[hamishspence]

More thoughts:
This story shows the Custodes and Astartes kinda sorta in a similar relationship to Commissars and Guardsmen. In which case - I wonder which chapter are the Catachans ;)

Inquisition are another good example of "The Commissars to the Astartes's Guardsmen" - and as to chapters that disdain the Inquisition and get away with it, in a similar fashion to "Oops! Sorry, Sir" , the Space Wolves are a possible candidate.

[Wraith]

More thoughts:
This story shows the Custodes and Astartes kinda sorta in a similar relationship to Commissars and Guardsmen. In which case - I wonder which chapter are the Catachans ;)

That would be the Flesh Tearers, since both Catachan and Cretacia are Space Australia and the people involved are notorious for their refusal to cooperate with authority unless they really have to.

The only difference is that Catachan is "meme-filled Crocodile-Dundee's-house" Australia and Cretacia is "Real Life Genocide Against Aborigines" Australia. Forum rules prevent me from discussing the latter in detail, but there's plenty on Wikipedia and Lexicanum from which you can draw the inevitable comparisons.