Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Cheesegear]

Australia and Cretacia is "Real Life Genocide Against Aborigines" Australia. Forum rules prevent me from discussing the latter in detail, but there's plenty on Wikipedia and Lexicanum from which you can draw the inevitable comparisons.

But every Space Marine Chapter rocks up to their native population and just starts taking 10-12 year-old kids. Cretacia and the Flesh Tearers are just the only example I can think of where this is portrayed as a significant negative. Like, maybe the children and their families don't want the kids to go with the 8ft tall scary men in armour with guns...
(Also, the Cretacians barely speak Gothic, and the Flesh Tearers aren't interested to Cretacian, either. Which means there's almost no communication. Just...'We're taking your kids. Kthxbye.')

..And combined with the rest of Cretacia's fluff, you're like "Oh...Ooooh...I get it."

[Wraith]

Cretacia and the Flesh Tearers are just the only example I can think of where this is portrayed as a significant negative.

The Emperor's Spears are treated at best like exiles, and usually more like evil ghosts. The tribal people that they recruit from hang up totems, spit on the ground and keep a number of superstitious little rituals to try and keep them away.

The big difference is that the Spears realise that they're the ones intruding into the lives of normal people who just want to be left alone, and try not to antagonise them unless they really have to commit a necessary evil.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Fair enough. I guess I should have been more specific - I'm not sure how Wardog's question of "which Astartes/Primaris Chapter is like Catachans" can be answered when the Catachans themselves have no shared identity/personality beyond their visual motif.

At one point, the Catachans had a special rule with regards to Commissars, with the attached fluff suggesting that the Catachans would have them killed in "accidents".

I don't know if that's still (or ever was) canon, but I am pretty sure it was an official GW PDF. Catachan rules for a previous edition.

[Wraith]

Ciaphas Cain made a joke about it at one point. Catachan units have a notoriously high turn-over rate of Commissars - not necessarily through friendly fire, but it's amazing just how many dangerous animals and poisonous plants you can bump into by following around Death Worlders and not heeding their advice....

[LeSwordfish]

Yes: I think perhaps an interesting question is if there are any Astartes that would be willing to do that to their assigned Custodian. I can see the Flesh Tearers giving it a shot.

[Cikomyr2]

Speaking of Catachans living conditions. You guys tried the Catachan Childhood Simulator?

It's official release name is "Green Hell", but I stand by the nickname

[Wraith]

Yes: I think perhaps an interesting question is if there are any Astartes that would be willing to do that to their assigned Custodian. I can see the Flesh Tearers giving it a shot.

The Space Wolves might - they've killed Inquisitors on multiple occasions, and they see it as their job to oversee the other Legions as that's what Leman Russ traditionally instructed them to do, so I can't imagine that they would take at all kindly to being overseen.

Blood Angels probably wouldn't as they have a streak of tragic nobility, but Blood Angels' successors would be a mixed bag. Flesh Tearers and Knights Of The Blood wouldn't be able to stop themselves, but the Lamenters have managed to surrender to the Inquisition peacefully so they probably would to a Custodian.

Ultramarines and their successors would absolutely do as they're told, they have far too much invested in their "Empire" of cooperating with humans to risk being portrayed as anything but ideal role models.

Imperial Fists wouldn't either - they're the Guardians of Terra and all about duty; more to the point, they're probably the most familiar with Custodians of all the Chapters so they're used to being ordered about by Terra-based authorities.
Black Templars.... Would depend on who is being talked to. Helbrecht is completely unknowable, wise and intelligent beyond measure but also a Knight whose honour is inviolate by anyone who is not THE Emperor, but a lesser Marshall might mistake honour with pride and take matters into his own hands without better instruction.

Iron Hands, similarly, would depend on which Clan you're talking to and what else they're doing at the moment. They're pretty isolationist even amongst themselves, and the last time they listened to someone else giving orders it got their Primarch killed, so.....

Grey Knights wouldn't. They're heavily indoctrinated in a way that normal Astartes don't match and recognise even more that they are expendable weapons with no say in what happens to them.

Carcharodons Astra probably would. They've been out in the dark for so long that they only just about remember what the Emperor is, and taking orders from mere Custodians wouldn't concern them. Hard for people to give you orders when they don't know who or where you are, but you know exactly the darkest and deepest places in the void to dump a body....

The Dark Angels....Well frankly, given their reputation, it's more a matter of whether or not they would do it again if the rumours are to be believed....

[Cikomyr2]

The Space Wolves might - they've killed Inquisitors on multiple occasions, and they see it as their job to oversee the other Legions as that's what Leman Russ traditionally instructed them to do, so I can't imagine that they would take at all kindly to being overseen.

This is one human behavior that gets on my ****ing nerve the most.

You have a group of people whose entire duty and job is to oversee and surveil others, because others can prove corrupt, traitorous or incompetent. It happens, they insist you shouldn't feel shame for being checked, because it's their job to just make sure you are respectful of laws.

However, dont you ****ing dare check THEM for potential corruption, traitorous or incompetence. It's a ****ing insult to investigate the investigators apparently. Even if investigation is the core of their ****ing job.

That applies to whatever level of human condition you can imagine, btw. I am not targeting any specific group.

[hamishspence]

Inquisitors do get investigated by other Inquisitors, a lot. Them going off the rails and being hunted down by the rest of the Inquisitors happens many times in 40K fiction. Though sometimes a lot of the investigators get killed in the process.

[Wraith]

However, dont you ****ing dare check THEM for potential corruption, traitorous or incompetence. It's a ****ing insult to investigate the investigators apparently. Even if investigation is the core of their ****ing job.

It almost sounds like you're saying that the Space Wolves are hypocritical, scumbag ****-heads.

Outrageous. I don't know where you come up with such nonsense.....

Seriously though, that's pretty much the point of the Leman Russ novel. Russ doesn't know about the Wulfen in his Legion, or at least what he does know isn't the full story until it gets exposed on national TV in front of him, Lion El'Johnson and the entirety of both their Legions during the siege of Duran.

He doesn't learn anything from it until WAY later. This happens before the Heresy, and during it he has squads of Wolves following his brothers around to 'keep an eye on them'.
Only way after the Heresy does he start to realise what that actually looks like - holding his brothers to account while he tried to kill Johnson for daring to do the same thing - and why it's up to the Wolves to never, ever shy away from the truth.

That leads to their near-Excommunication after the events of Armageddon, but that's a good moment for the Wolves as they are morally justified and take their 'punishment' on the chin for it.

[hamishspence]

It almost sounds like you're saying that the Space Wolves are hypocritical, scumbag ****-heads.

Outrageous. I don't know where you come up with such nonsense.....

Seriously though, that's pretty much the point of the Leman Russ novel.

Especially since there's been a few Renegade Space Wolves.

Sven Ironhand and his Great Company. (815.M41)
Skyrar's Dark Wolves (implied) (fell at some point in M38 or earlier)
A number of Space Wolf crew members of the Wolf of Fenris strike cruiser joined the Red Corsairs after their ship was captured, too.

That leads to their near-Excommunication after the events of Armageddon, but that's a good moment for the Wolves as they are morally justified and take their 'punishment' on the chin for it.

The Inquisitor tried to punish them and make them go on a penitent crusade. They failed, and got killed in the process:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

The whole thing ended with both sides standing down and the Wolves not actually being punished in any formal sense at all.

[Artanis]

Honestly, the Space Wolves were my first thought for the Catachan-equivalent chapter. Whatever their other features, one of the defining aspects of both is that they've been forged (largely by their homeworlds) into something that only superficially resembles any other unit of their respective service branch. They're also both relatively melee-focused, and both have a history of getting away with a high death rate among their supposed watchers (Commissars/Inquisition).

[Fyraltari]

Behemoth [3/3] is here!

[Platinius]

Behemoth [3/3] is here!

Yay, happy dance! Here is to hoping for Wolf and Sister part 2^^

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Some interesting first-person viewpoints, though nothing surprising given the established fluff. https://www.warhammer-community.com/...g-retaliation/

Though it does lock in something that also isn't entirely surprising, but puts events in a different perspective.

Spoiler

Show

The target's name is Argento Corian. Corian was the name of the Chapter Master from Burden of Brotherhood, whose battle brothers developed spontaneous psyker-itis. We don't know if that has to do with their gene-seed, but it's possible.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the only thing that bugs me is the Assassins still have their names. I feel like that's something the indoctrination and training would scrub out of them and replace with something more dehumanizing. Eversor and Callidus more, though Culexus and Vindicare also.

[Rydiro]

This is one human behavior that gets on my ****ing nerve the most.

You have a group of people whose entire duty and job is to oversee and surveil others, because others can prove corrupt, traitorous or incompetent. It happens, they insist you shouldn't feel shame for being checked, because it's their job to just make sure you are respectful of laws.

However, dont you ****ing dare check THEM for potential corruption, traitorous or incompetence. It's a ****ing insult to investigate the investigators apparently. Even if investigation is the core of their ****ing job.

That applies to whatever level of human condition you can imagine, btw. I am not targeting any specific group.

You can actually get around that, if you don't give the overseeing party any power, just the right to turn the case over to a judge.
Then you dont need to check the overseers, because they cant actually do a thing.

[hamishspence]

I think the only thing that bugs me is the Assassins still have their names. I feel like that's something the indoctrination and training would scrub out of them and replace with something more dehumanizing. Eversor and Callidus more, though Culexus and Vindicare also.

To be fair, there's a lot of precedent for named assassins.

Even sticking to pre-HH material, there was M'Shen, the Callidus who assassinated Night Haunter, and Meh'Lindi, from the Inquisition War books.

3e's Codex Assassins had a Vindicare by the name of Morias Skult, and a Venenum by the name of Urhua Thereaux.

3e's Codex Necrons had a Callidus by the name of Jaramshaela.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, there's a lot of precedent for named assassins.

Even sticking to pre-HH material, there was M'Shen, the Callidus who assassinated Night Haunter, and Meh'Lindi, from the Inquisition War books.

3e's Codex Assassins had a Vindicare by the name of Morias Skult, and a Venenum by the name of Urhua Thereaux.

3e's Codex Necrons had a Callidus by the name of Jaramshaela.

Yeah, and they bugged me too.

[hamishspence]

"Those names are code names, and they give up their birth names" seems like a reasonable solution.

[LansXero]

Could also just be cover identities they grew attached / accustomed to.

[Driderman]

Could also just be cover identities they grew attached / accustomed to.

Bond, James Bond.

[Lord Torath]

Bond, James Bond.

Johns. Bane Johns. Wonders who will get the reference. In this thread, probably quite a fair number.

[hamishspence]

Something that I thought was interesting - Calgar was very young when he became Chapter Master.

Cassius is called out as "almost 400 years old" (in older codexes, as of "the present" - 999.M41) and "the oldest in the Chapter". That means that Calgar has to have been born after 600.M41.

Yet Calgar is Chapter Master, and leader of the Corinthian Crusade (50+ Guard regiments + elements of 6 chapters), in 698.M41.

Going from newborn kid to Chapter Master in less than 100 years is quite a feat. Even Chapter Masters noted for their rapid progress, like Logan Grimnar, tend to take over 200 years from induction to Chapter Master.

[Random Sanity]

Something that I thought was interesting - Calgar was very young when he became Chapter Master.

Cassius is called out as "almost 400 years old" (in older codexes, as of "the present" - 999.M41) and "the oldest in the Chapter". That means that Calgar has to have been born after 600.M41.

Yet Calgar is Chapter Master, and leader of the Corinthian Crusade (50+ Guard regiments + elements of 6 chapters), in 698.M41.

Going from newborn kid to Chapter Master in less than 100 years is quite a feat. Even Chapter Masters noted for their rapid progress, like Logan Grimnar, tend to take over 200 years from induction to Chapter Master.

IRL units with high turnover tend to also have accelerated promotions. Air forces in the second world war frequently had senior officers in their twenties - unheard of in other branches.

Take a look at Ultramarine fluff and how many casualties they take. This is also one of the chapters that pioneered the "give the higher-ranked guys fancy helmets so the enemy knows who to shoot at" schtick. There's always going to be room for advancement in an outfit like that.

[hamishspence]

IRL units with high turnover tend to also have accelerated promotions. Air forces in the second world war frequently had senior officers in their twenties - unheard of in other branches.

Take a look at Ultramarine fluff and how many casualties they take. This is also one of the chapters that pioneered the "give the higher-ranked guys fancy helmets so the enemy knows who to shoot at" schtick. There's always going to be room for advancement in an outfit like that.

True - still, many of the Captains in charge during the Battle of Macragge are still in charge 250 years later, so Captain turnover may not be especially great.

[Brookshw]

Behemoth [3/3] is here!

Seriously? I had long since given up on that one, nicely done.

[JNAProductions]

Daemons and shooting. Is there fluff to support that, outside Tzeentch, the Soul Grinder, and the Skull Cannon?

[Wraith]

Depends on what you consider a daemon as opposed to a daemon-possessed warmachine. Chaos Titans, Vindicators and Predators are all warmachines with Daemons infesting them, whereas a Heldrake and a Forgefiend are.... More like cyborg-daemons, having had metal bits bolted to them rather than an existing vehicle with a passenger inside of it.

Also depends on what you mean by "shooting". Anything that can use psychic powers like Doombolt and Psybolt are or have been classed as ranged/shooting attacks before and are virtually the same sort of thing that Horrors do. Great Unclean Ones also had the Stream of Corruption as a shooting attack, which used the flamer template.

But if you mean a daemon that picks up a gun and shoots it at people.... No. In-universe, daemons enjoy getting up close and personal far too much; in terms of IRL aesthetic, daemonic bio-gun-kinda-things overlaps too much with how Tyranids look, so GW likes to keep them distinct.

[Grim Portent]

While guns aren't really a daemon thing some nurgle daemons can traditionally projectile vomit corrosive bile or unleash a hail of flies, Ku'Gath throws heaps of nurglings as I recall, tzeentch daemons throw fireballs a lot, some khorne daemons can breath fire and Skar'brand can roar loud enough to rupture organs. Slaaneshi ranged attacks tend to be whips, which are more just long melee weapons rather than a real ranged attack.

The Daemons of the Ruinstorm from the Horus Heresy have a variety of shooting attacks, mostly shooting spines, breathing fire and similar. They also possessed corpses while maintaining the capacity to use the guns they had in life.

Lastly daemon princes occasionally keep their guns on ascension and have them become Warp Bolters.