Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[The Glyphstone]

They're a spiritual successor/replacement, not literally New Squats. Weirdly, the new Necromunda has a Squat mercenary so I guess both races are canon?

[Wraith]

They're a spiritual successor/replacement, not literally New Squats. Weirdly, the new Necromunda has a Squat mercenary so I guess both races are canon?

Apparently Demiurg are also mentioned in the Book of Judgement - the sourcebook for using the Enforcer gang in Necromunda (2019). I haven't read it, but given that Grendl Grendlson is stated to be a Squat I'm now very keen to see what it says for myself, as by the sounds of things you could well be right.

Necromunda has always been a bit weird with the 40k canon and done some things that don't quite line up with the greater universe, but if it lists Squats and Demiurg separately it's still 40k, so...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is that ugly green robe with purple trim the standard uniform for Astropaths? The colors just don't go together!

[Cheesegear]

Is that ugly green robe with purple trim the standard uniform for Astropaths?

Green is the official colour for Astropaths.
The purple trim? ...That's down to the painter's awful taste in colour palette.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Even if illustrators for the TTRPGs took that and put it on nearly every Astropath depicted?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is Orkoid fungus edible to other species besides Orks themselves? Or do they have any weird effects on humans?

[Wraith]

Tyranids use it like normal biomass... Well, I say "normal" - in Octarius, the microscopic Ork spores are evolving to fight back against the microscopic Tyranid amoebas that normally strip genetic material out of the soil and water, so it's probably more safe to say that Ork spores are normal biomass when they can catch and kill it.

For everyone else.... I don't think it's ever been tested, but given the above I'd imagine that its probably very toxic or even quite predatory and actively attacks whatever has consumed it from the inside.

Ork spores are killed by fire, so whatever you do make sure it's flame-grilled and well done before you try.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thought so. And I imagine it's safer for humans to just take a flamer to it where it's found anyway, as where there's fungus there'll eventually be orks.

Another question: My understanding is that Space Marine Librarians start out as Acolytum. Is this INSTEAD OF the standard training as a Space Marine Scout most chapters use, or IN ADDITION to it? Does a Librarian start as a Scout and THEN become an Acolytum, or just become an Acolytum right off the bat, bypassing the Scout phase entirely?

[Kris Strife]

According to the novel Lukas The Trickster, Orks are edible and quite tasty if properly cooked. Admittedly, this is from space marines, but I'd imagine it'd still hold true for baseline humans.

Additionally, orkoid species eat each other, and Kroot can eat ork. Ymargl genestealers probably also eat ork, and I'm sure nearly everything on Catachan is capable of eating ork with no issues.

[Grim Portent]

Space marines certainly consider it safe enough to eat raw ork brains when they need to learn information and have no captives to interrogate, though there is sometimes a bit of bleed over from the memories they consume there seems to be no broader health problems from them eating raw ork.

I imagine most Ork flora and fauna is edible to some extent, though some of the fungi strains, like the ones used as the basis of Ork chemistry and brewing, will probably have interesting side effects or be lethal if eaten raw. If Orks can get drunk off a fermented mushroom then the original mushroom is probably not that good for you to eat.

Lots of planets do have to deal with perennial attacks by Feral Orks who've popped up in areas they haven't managed to purge of spores, but without a technical base and large population the Orks are limited to stone weapons and leather armour so most human societies are able to deal with them without too much difficulty. You need to cleanse enough land that you don't get huge swarms of Orks growing in the hills, but you don't need to destroy every last bit of their biology to have a safe and functioning planet.

[Kris Strife]

Space marines eating their brains is probably the only way to interrogate orks. I mean, what are you going to threaten them with that's worse than top tier ork medical practice?

[Destro_Yersul]

I imagine all you have to do is take their favourite gun and start slowly stripping off the dakka in front of them until they talk.

[Grim Portent]

It is possible to torture them, the average boy is sometimes portrayed as afraid* of their more manic doctors because they cause a great deal of pain and suffering even by Ork standards. Matching that level of suffering is hard, but if you take an Ork to a proper interrogation setup I imagine the Imperium can match or even exceed it.

This is a setting where both the Imperium and Orks have access to technogology that can rewire, selectively fry or inflict great pain upon the brain, can use psychic torture, chemical torture and a good old fashioned dose of physical torture.


*Rynn's World being the example that pops into my head. Pretty sure the Ork boy who was strapped to a dok's table was described as looking terrified of his surgeon.

[Avaris]

I suspect torture for an Ork would be the infliction of pain without being able to fight. In particular, sudden pain where the cause is not something that can be seen for the purposes of subsequent krumpin, and doesn’t even leave scars.

[Wraith]

Another question: My understanding is that Space Marine Librarians start out as Acolytum. Is this INSTEAD OF the standard training as a Space Marine Scout most chapters use, or IN ADDITION to it? Does a Librarian start as a Scout and THEN become an Acolytum, or just become an Acolytum right off the bat, bypassing the Scout phase entirely?

Prospective/Acolyte Librarians are trained by other Librarians, rather than joining the 10th Company. Presumably because other Space Marines distrust psykers and wouldn't want them in their Squad, on top of them being at risk of spontaneously self-combusting without warning and putting other trainees at risk.

[hamishspence]

In early material (Into The Maelstrom short story collection - In The Belly of The Beast - republished in the Let The Galaxy Burn collection) we have a squad of Blood Claws, one of which is psychic, and not yet receiving full training - still part of the squad. The idea is that once he's proven himself, then they will remove him from the squad and train him all the way up to Librarian, (or rather, Rune Priest).

So, being a psyker, doesn't necessarily mean instant separation from your group.

[Wraith]

I should have included the usual caveat - USUALLY Psykers are separated early on as they need special training to keep their powers in control and not be a clear risk to those around them, while also learning to be Space Marines.

But as always, some Chapters do it their own way and have their own traditions, because they think they know better/because they're idiots. Step forward - as always - the Space Wolves.

[hamishspence]

Indeed. I think some chapters might actually get the best psykers shipped to them from Terra, rather than simply picking out the few survivors of initiation trials and implantation, that happen to be psychic.

Since only a tiny proportion of psykers, are good enough to make Librarian-grade, and only a tiny proportion of humans are psychic.

8e 40K rulebook, page 39:

Many psykers die en route to Terra, but those who survive are rigorously tested to work out their best use. Upon reaching the Imperial home world, the psykers are sorted, graded and assigned to various duties. The vast majority are sent to the Astronomican to serve the great beacon – their lives are short, painful and culminate in an agonising death. A goodly number are deemed too unstable even for that duty. Most of these are lobotomised, becoming mindless servitors, but a few are spirited away to the Obsidian Keep in the heart of the Astra Telepathica palace complex where an unknown fate awaits them. A very few are deemed fit for more active service. Of these, the main part are sent to the Imperial Palace to undergo the Soul Binding ritual. More die there, but the maimed survivors are inducted into the ranks of the Astropaths. Others are sent to various departments – one in ten million may be mind-scrubbed and sent to serve the military as sanctioned psyker, one in a hundred million may be mind-scrubbed and sent to a Space Marine Chapter to be reborn as a Librarian, and one in a billion may be worthy of serving as an Inquisitor or other high-status official.

[Renegade Paladin]

That wouldn't happen with the Wolves, though - the Canis Helix does horrible things to non-Fenrisians and they don't get viable Astartes on the other side.

[hamishspence]

the Canis Helix does horrible things to non-Fenrisians and they don't get viable Astartes on the other side.

If you go by HH7: Inferno, there were plenty of Terran Space Wolves before Leman Russ was found on Prospero. It was a problem - but it wasn't an insurmountable one.

Once Leman Russ was found, and samples taken from him and used to stabilise the Canis Helix, implantation survival rates went up a lot. Fenrisians were also a lot more resilient - so the combination of the two factors - stabilised Canis Helix & Fenrisian recruits, allowed survival rates to go even higher.

But it wasn't a case of "Only Fenrisians can be implanted with Space Wolf geneseed and not die/rapidly devolve."


Presumably, the new all-Primaris Space Wolf successor chapter, the Wolfspear, aren't going to be forced to recruit purely from Fenris.

[thethird]

Prospective/Acolyte Librarians are trained by other Librarians, rather than joining the 10th Company. Presumably because other Space Marines distrust psykers and wouldn't want them in their Squad, on top of them being at risk of spontaneously self-combusting without warning and putting other trainees at risk.

In early material (Into The Maelstrom short story collection - In The Belly of The Beast - republished in the Let The Galaxy Burn collection) we have a squad of Blood Claws, one of which is psychic, and not yet receiving full training - still part of the squad. The idea is that once he's proven himself, then they will remove him from the squad and train him all the way up to Librarian, (or rather, Rune Priest).

So, being a psyker, doesn't necessarily mean instant separation from your group.

If memory serves one of the carcharodon novels also has a psyker that is being trained as a scout. If I remember correctly there is the implication that he is not a full space marine yet, due to being a scout and not having all the implants, so probably he would graduate from scout to acolyte.

[hamishspence]

If memory serves one of the carcharodon novels also has a psyker that is being trained as a scout. If I remember correctly there is the implication that he is not a full space marine yet, due to being a scout and not having all the implants, so probably he would graduate from scout to acolyte.

And from Codex Space Marines:

"The aspirant must not only endure everything a normal space marine recruit would, but also have a strong enough spirit to withstand the moulding of his mind."


So I can see why "they serve as Scouts for a while" might not be so unusual.

[Wraith]

"The aspirant must not only endure everything a normal space marine recruit would, but also have a strong enough spirit to withstand the moulding of his mind."

It may have been a turn of phrasing which has confused me, then - I remember the quote above, and with it was the phrase: "Worthy psychic candidates are passed on to the chapter Librarium for training."

I read it as, "The Librarium is now responsible for ALL of their training", but I can now see how that might mean for Psykery-lessons in person, and in a supervisory capacity while the acolyte in question is being taught the normal stuff by a scout Sergeant.

Maybe it's more accurate to say that Psyker-Scouts train with the normal Scouts, but from a crunchy point of view they don't go on real missions with them. This would explain why Scouts don't have an option to have a Psyker in their squads, and why in the novels a novice Librarian always has a 'Master' that they follow around and serve until they are judged competent enough to go it by themselves.

[Grim Portent]

I imagine that during the scout stage of a potential librarian's career they are not trusted to use psychic powers, or perhaps not even capable of using anything beyond the most basic techniques.

[Brookshw]

I imagine that during the scout stage of a potential librarian's career they are not trusted to use psychic powers, or perhaps not even capable of using anything beyond the most basic techniques.

Seems likely, I recall when a fully trained librarian joins Deathwatch their powers are turned off while they go through retraining.

[Lord Torath]

I don't recall reading anything like that in the Deathwatch RPG. New characters start with 2 powers, but if you're creating a higher-rank character, they can start with all the normal powers for a librarian of their rank.

That said, it could be different in other sources.

[thethird]

And from Codex Space Marines:

"The aspirant must not only endure everything a normal space marine recruit would, but also have a strong enough spirit to withstand the moulding of his mind."


So I can see why "they serve as Scouts for a while" might not be so unusual.

I did some novel digging to work on my memory. I am probably misremembering (which is scary for a different set of reasons). If it's a carcharodon novel it's probably Red Tithe or Outer Dark. It's unlikely to be Red Tithe since by the end the psyker boy is given to the apothecaries.

Then at the beginning of the outer dark...

'You have done well to come this far, brother,' the Chief Librarian said, stepping past him. Like Khauri, he was clad in ancient power armour that hummed and whirred as he moved. The traditional colours of the Chapter – greys and blacks – had given way to deep blue, though the battleplate was heavily inscribed with swirling white exile markings, honours that Khauri's equipment did not yet bear.
[...]
The other was Khauri, Te Kahurangi’s Lexicanium apprentice.
[...]
his status as a Lexicanium, a junior member of the Chapter's Librarius, rendered him separate from the normal hierarchies of the battle companies.

I didn't check the short stories, but Reaping Time happens before Red Tithe and I haven't read Death Warrant, so I can't be misremembering it from there.

[Brookshw]

I don't recall reading anything like that in the Deathwatch RPG. New characters start with 2 powers, but if you're creating a higher-rank character, they can start with all the normal powers for a librarian of their rank.

That said, it could be different in other sources.

It's in the Deathwatch novel by Steve Parker.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I haven't really kept up with the War of the Spider, but it seems as though the Renegade Primaris thing never came to pass? As I understand it the Primaris in the fleet (from the short story) were all dealt with and the war was between the Custodes, Death Guard, and Bile with an entirely firstborn Shriven.

If so, that's a hell of a bait by GW...

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, yeah. If the Primaris Brazen Drakes had won, there wouldn't be any Custodes in the sector to be in the book.