Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Wraith]

Lion, now with all available information, like a real commander, takes this to Guilliman, and they shake hands, and things are Forgiven. 30K was ten thousand years ago. Haven't we learned anything? Why are we still fighting? This doesn't make sense.

This is the only one that I wouldn't necessarily agree with.

Lion listened to Guilliman's great idea about how the Emperor was dead and it was up to them to carry on His legacy once before, and it didn't turn out so well because Guilliman was being a prick about it, roped Sanguinius in to be his puppet and generally told a bunch of people whatever he needed them to hear in order to get them to do what he wanted. Lion isn't the sort of guy to forget that, especially since he was directly involved the first time, and rightly called Guilliman out on it even then.

I'm not sure he'd tell Guilliman "You had your chance and you blew it, now we're doing things my way", but that would be an entirely appropriate thing for Guilliman to hear.
Lion has always done his own thing and not cared about what others think so long as they don't get in his way, and while he probably wouldn't start an open rebellion against Guilliman I can definitely see him making an ironic comment about taking a leaf out of the Ultramarines' book and heading off to "Caliban Secundus" in order to run his own little corner of the Imperium how he thinks it ought to be run.

And this is all before El'Johnson find out that Guilliman was building a secret army of super-super soldiers on Mars and then was brought back from the dead by a xenos witch. Would he even believe it was Guilliman? If anyone would know the difference it'd be hos brothers... Or would they?

Because otherwise you're having two 40k characters sit down and talk things out rationally before coming to a mutually-acceptable agreement. Read that out loud and listen to it carefully, I'm sure you'll spot the obvious hiccup.

[Cheesegear]

Lion listened to Guilliman's great idea about how the Emperor was dead and it was up to them to carry on His legacy once before, and it didn't turn out so well because Guilliman was being a prick about it, roped Sanguinius in to be his puppet and generally told a bunch of people whatever he needed them to hear in order to get them to do what he wanted.

Here's the thing, it ain't like that now.
The Emperor is (more-or-less) dead. There's proof.
Guilliman's not a prick anymore - mostly. He even read Lorgar's book for the first time after flat out refusing to take it out of the box ten thousand years ago.

Lion isn't the sort of guy to forget that, especially since he was directly involved the first time, and rightly called Guilliman out on it even then.

It's not about what Lion is or isn't willing to forget.
It's whether one or both of Guilliman and Lion is willing to stay stupid, especially since they've been through all of this before.

To me, there would be nothing worse than having all the Primarchs come back - in 41K, having been through everything they went through the first time, the ensuing Scouring, and then everything their Sons went through (Vulkan can provide first-hand knowledge, since he was there)...And then on top of everything, Necrons and Tyranids are a thing...What? - only to have nothing at all change, and have all the Brothers come back exactly the same as they were.

That's what so great about Guilliman. 41K Guilliman shows character growth and development. The guy who wrote the Codex Astartes...Isn't that guy anymore. He's now way, way more like Rogal Dorn...Which obviously means that if Rogal Dorn were to come back, he needs to be different, too (i.e; Broken). Why have two of the same character?

Lion has always done his own thing and not cared about what others think so long as they don't get in his way, and while he probably wouldn't start an open rebellion against Guilliman I can definitely see him making an ironic comment about taking a leaf out of the Ultramarines' book and heading off to "Caliban Secundus" in order to run his own little corner of the Imperium how he thinks it ought to be run.

Necrons are a thing, apparently.
Tyranids have been making their way to The Milky Way since Pharos.

Chaos is stronger than it ever was.
...You know there's a massive Rift that goes right through the Galaxy, right?

You're right, Lion. What we need now is petty bull****.

Because otherwise you're having two 40k characters sit down and talk things out rationally before coming to a mutually-acceptable agreement. Read that out loud and listen to it carefully, I'm sure you'll spot the obvious hiccup.

If we're saying that all the Primarchs coming back isn't basically the end of 40K's storyline, and what we want to do is preserve the status quo indefinitely because it's a setting, not a story. Then...Yes. You're right.

[Wraith]

To me, there would be nothing worse than having all the Primarchs come back - in 41K, having been through everything they went through the first time, the ensuing Scouring, and then everything their Sons went through (Vulkan can provide first-hand knowledge, since he was there)...And then on top of everything, Necrons and Tyranids are a thing...What? - only to have nothing at all change, and have all the Brothers come back exactly the same as they were.

I find this to be a really interesting take on the matter, if only because I *did* want them to come back as they were - but I was approaching that desire from the opposite direction that you have characterised.

In 30k, the Loyalist brothers were united - for the Imperium, against Chaos, for Mankind, against their rivals, for the Emperor, or some combination of all of the above - and that's what I liked about them.

They were unequivocally on the same side, but it was their clash of egos and agendas that made them interesting characters, to compare them to each other and see how they see things.

I know that you aren't suggesting that the next plot would be how they all put their differences aside, hold hands and be the best of buddies from now on, because that's patently absurd. I do, however, want to see them conflicted about how they ought to proceed and where they think the Imperium needs to go, because that has been a big part of their identities and to take that away removes a lot of the intrigue.

By all means, don't make them have the SAME identities that they had in 30k. I'd be quite happy if someone were to kick over my fanboy pedestal of the Lion, make him "wrong" and make Guilliman - the guy who has been back in charge for 100 years and knows more about what's going on - to be "right", that sounds like a decent challenge and I'd enjoy seeing someone try to pull it off. But don't necessarily make them agree on anything beyond "Mankind Good, Everything Else Bad", otherwise I think you'd lose a lot or what made the 30k stories so great - that they are spiteful and petty despite themselves.

[LansXero]

A'ight...

It would do the opposite in 41K. Chaos is real.

They already know this by the siege. Of course, me and mostly everyone whos read them wish the novels would focus less on the faith vs chaos stuff and named characters would stop babysitting Keeler, but all three Primarchs there know about Chaos, Dorn is even told he wasnt told beforehand because he cant understand it, then they talk about some warp stuff and Dorn goes "no, thats impossible", cue Malcador: see? you DONT get it, this is why you only get to stand on walls.

Prior to things going to ****, there is one Primarch who is told about Chaos. No, it isn't Magnus, because Magnus never needed to be told, he is made of warpstuff inserted into a meat puppet. Most bets are on Perturabo, due to his weird 'I can see the Eye of Terror from anywhere' thing (and his early amnesia) or Curze due to the premonitions.

Turns out Horus and the others were actually corrupted, not just having poop in their pants.

Dude, Mortarion has fkin fly wings and Angron eats lascannon shots to the face without flinching. They CANT not know their brothers are corrupted, hell Guilliman was right there for Angron's ascension.

Someone doesn't know Roboute Guilliman, and especially not his current form.

Yeah, Guilliman loathes the current Imperium. Isnt the whole 'why am I alive' quote widely known by now? He loves Status Quo when it means 'nobody messes with MY designs' and only then. But even his Ultramarines are nowhere near the old legion, the tyrannic wars saw to that.

Lion sees division is tearing the Imperium apart, and attempts to reconcile with his brothers

Go read Dreadwing. His sons are as scared of him as Karn was of Angron, except they are also scared of each other. Of course, Lion also tears a Keeper of Secrets in half like so much chaff, but he has become a shell of his former self. His 'lets obliterate the traitor homeworlds' plan was a complete failure because the traitors no longer care, the warp engine thats actually a reflection of his homeworld is worming inside his mind and his entire legion is bleeding itself raw for nothing of any actual value. And yet he keeps going because going to Terra means 'I was wrong' and **** if he wont lose his entire fleet first rather than admitting that.

30K was ten thousand years ago. Haven't we learned anything? Why are we still fighting? This doesn't make sense.

He is the less likely one to have learned anything. He's been asleep under the Rock all this time. For him 30k was very shortly ago.

Jaghatai doesn't change. The Emperor comes first. Always.

Now surfing on an Impulsor instead of a Land Raider.

Leman Russ knows that Chaos is Real. Dad was right all along. Someone needs to go punch Abaddon's teeth in. Unfortunately, Russ needs help

The failure that couldnt bring himself to kill Horus and got what was left of the Raven Guard to bail him out after wasting most of his Legion is, probably not going to ask for or get help. Russ was already suicidal and his body was badly broken, him returning would be in shame. How would he even live with knowing that he passed on killing the one who would end up killing the Emperor?

Rogal Dorn comes back, with Chainswords-for-Hands. Broken, at the hands of the Night Lords, he is a shell of his former self. In his prime, Dorn would've punched Guilliman in the face, thrown down in the Emperor's Throne Room, and demanded that Guilliman yield, and reunite the Legions

But he didn't. He went and Iron Cage'd himself. All through the siege he keeps getting ignored by Sanguinius and the Khan and just going 'eh'. Perturabo reads him like an open book and he cant figure out how to fight against daemons because of how he is. And even in the 1 vs 1 sense, he gets his ass handed to him by Samus, know by having been 'killed' by regular Ultramarines back in Calth. He is not even good with the populace of Terra (the twist in The Lost and The Damned is great, first time I've been surprised in a 30k novel in a long time).

Sigismund was right. Chaos is Real.

Dorn knows that Chaos is real and he still treats Sigismund like crap. What Dorn doesnt believe is FAITH IN THE EMPEROR is real, which it has already show itself to be during the siege.

Dante finally succumbs to the Black Rage, except instead of freaking out and going insane, he becomes Sanguinius, in all but physical form. At the very least, he's able to get Lion and Guilliman in the same room together, which starts off the whole thing.

Would be apropriate since what Dante wants is to just die. So Luis goes away, hawk boy pilots the golden-clad puppet

Remember when Horus gave the Iron Hands back Ferrus Manus' head? ...Well, he's back! In Dreadnought form! He is literally a very, very, very glorified brain-in-a-jar.

It'd be something closer to a Stompa than a dread but sure. But didn't they pull this **** before and Ferrus ended up wanting to just die again?

Guilliman loathes the modern Imperium, and with the help of his Brothers walking the Galaxy again, he can finally get rid of that God-awful Imperial Creed, and replace it with the Imperial Truth

.

Why would he? Faith has tangible power, he has concrete evidence of it from travelling with Celestine. The creed exists to shield humanity from the horrors of the warp, which is why it can't be removed. Its got nothing to do with the Imperial Truth, which is also dead because Gods do exist and they hate mankind.

Vulkan has actually been back the entire time. Unfortunately, he doesn't actually like his Sons, and he's barely interested in interacting with anyone.

Same as Old Earth then.

Corax comes back, and (...) strongly encourages doing 'whatever it takes to win', and his brothers are concerned about what the difference is between Corax and any of the Traitor Primarchs.

The guy who regreted having done that to the point of fleeing? The guy who personally went to every raptor cage to give them the Emperor's mercy? The one who had to be shaken out of his depression by the sight of 'the emperor's executioner' being an emo whiny failure? After the mess with the raptors and the guerrilla campaigns, Corax has already punished his Legion not because he wants to do 'anything to win', but because he consideres himself, other Primarchs and the Legions by extension to be tainted by the warp and a mistake. The reason he is so reckless is because he wants all of them and himself gone and dead. But when he sees Russ doing the same **** he realizes how pathetic it looks so he wakes up and corrects himself. Of course thats after sending the Therions to die at Beta-Garmon and getting all his shadow-masters killed, so no shadowstep marines in 40k, but what can you do.

Eh? Killing the Emperor goes against what Chaos wants?

Sort of. Thats why the traitors dont just blow up Terra from orbit. They dont need the Emperor just 'dead'. They need him killed in a highly ritualized specific set of circumstances so that his warp reflection gets annihilated as well as his physical form. Otherwise just cyclonic torpedo the world and be done with it.

Given how strong Chaos is, they need the Emperor walking again.

Wouldn't Ynnead be able to restore the Emperor, the way it undid the Rubric?

Guilliman has had enough of the T'au's bull****, and he's here to finish what Calgar started but couldn't follow through on; **** off, join us under our command, or die. The Greater Good gets subsumed by the Imperial Truth one way or the other. We can't 'just be friends', 'cause in case T'au don't know; Chaos is Real.

The Ethereals would likely sooner go extinct than yield. Cracking core sept worlds is not a luxury the current Imperium can afford, they can swat expansion spheres back all day, but pressing into the center of the Empire would leave them too exposed in the current climate.

[Forum Explorer]

Again, you appear to have it backwards. Given how strong Chaos is, they need the Emperor walking again.



And do what? Reactivate their greatest experiment in the fight against The Warp; The Emperor.

Not a chance. The Emperor was openly genocidal. Him waking back up and walking around would be a disaster for the Eldar. They can handle a Primarch or two. Particularly Primarchs who aren't as fanatical and willing to compromise. But the Emperor would try and exterminate the Eldar as soon as Chaos was handled.

In fact, the Eldar would be better off with Chaos, because even if humanity falls, they've still got a better chance of riding out the storm of Chaos as it won't be actively trying to hunt them down. At the very least, it won't be united in its efforts to do so.


Also I'm really hoping that you are making that up, because that sounds really stupid. The Emperor being a Necron experiment is just ugh.

[Silverraptor]

Corax comes back, and only makes friends with Vulkan, and even then...Barely.

And then they go on an empire galaxy spanning road trip together.

[Cikomyr2]

In the other page, there was discussion of a Warp Entity representing the Greater Good, and some arguments as to why it couldn't happen.

But could.. Say, if sufficient humans were brainwashed in The Greater Good and not yet exterminated, and perhaps a Sensei/shard of the Emperor would incarnate their belief in the Warp?

[LansXero]

In the other page, there was discussion of a Warp Entity representing the Greater Good, and some arguments as to why it couldn't happen.

But could.. Say, if sufficient humans were brainwashed in The Greater Good and not yet exterminated, and perhaps a Sensei/shard of the Emperor would incarnate their belief in the Warp?

But that hasnt happened to the Emperor itself, so why would it happen with a fraction of the people in a fraction of the time?

[Renegade Paladin]

I mean, clearly it did happen; that's why the Fourth Sphere Tau freaked out and killed all their auxiliaries.

[Cheesegear]

They were unequivocally on the same side, but it was their clash of egos and agendas that made them interesting characters, to compare them to each other and see how they see things.

I know that you aren't suggesting that the next plot would be how they all put their differences aside, hold hands and be the best of buddies from now on, because that's patently absurd. I do, however, want to see them conflicted about how they ought to proceed and where they think the Imperium needs to go, because that has been a big part of their identities and to take that away removes a lot of the intrigue...

The problem is that if 'intrigue' were to ever actually happen on the page, during 41K, I would be screaming 'YOU DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS' at the page.

By all means, I'm happy to have them sit in a room and argue and debate with each other. I'm not happy, if at any point, the result of the argument is that one of the Primarchs takes their ball, goes home, and makes 'Caliban Secundus' as you suggested. The Imperium no longer has room for Primarchs having personality quirks flaws. Especially that given in a storyline where the Chaos Primarchs are getting off their arse and participating.

The Chaos Primarchs are united in their means, even if their ends aren't aligned. The Loyalist Primarchs can't afford 'individuality'. Yes. Absolutely. It makes for a better story, that we, the audience read, because we can identify with an individual Primarch. But it makes a horrific narrative, and no in-Universe sense.

Primarch 1: Screw you Primarch 2! I'm making my own Empire, with blackjack and hookers! ...But no blackjack.
Primarch 2: See that? *Points to Chaos Rift literally dividing the Galaxy in half, and making Chaos stronger than ever* That says you can't do that. We can't leave this room until we figure out what to do and agree.
Trajann Valoris: Did GW make me on par with a Primarch? ...Can I even enforce that?
Primarch 1: *Looks at Great Rift* ...Oh yeah. That. Valoris, you're not needed. There's empirical evidence that says our petty squabbles are irrelevant at this time. You wont need to enforce anything. I agree to Primarch 2's parley.

that they are spiteful and petty despite themselves.

...And I would hate reading that, in 41K.
30K it makes sense. 41K, it wouldn't.

Dude, Mortarion has fkin fly wings and Angron eats lascannon shots to the face without flinching. They CANT not know their brothers are corrupted, hell Guilliman was right there for Angron's ascension.

lol

But [Dorn] didn't. He went and Iron Cage'd himself. [...] Perturabo reads him like an open book and he cant figure out how to fight against daemons because of how he is.

That's not how the Iron Cage went.

Dorn was ready to fight Guilliman over the Codex Astartes and dividing the Legions. The only reason he didn't, was because The Phalanx was staring down the Ultramar Fleet, and what Dorn was about to do would set the Imperium on fire...Again. Dorn was unwilling to do that, especially after what they'd just been through.

If it was just Guilliman and Dorn in a room. It would've gone very differently.

Hence Dorn saying "**** that." anyway, and secretly enacting a protocol that would allow the Imperial Fists and their Successors to reform back into a Legion when needs must. The Codex Astartes is a good idea, in theory. But times change. We don't know what we'll need in the future, and the Legions were a pretty good idea. Guilliman is wrong. But I will agree to his terms because I have to.

...This is what would need to happen in 41K. It's not that the Primarchs can't disagree with each other in theory. It's that they would be forced by circumstances to not disagree in practice:

Hell, they can start the story Divided. Fine.
Cawl Does The Thing.
Guess what Primarchs? Staying divided gets you and your Chapters killed.

What Dorn doesnt believe is FAITH IN THE EMPEROR is real...

Neither does Guilliman... Until he does, in 41K.
What Guilliman doesn't like, is the institutionalisation of faith.

Wouldn't Ynnead be able to restore the Emperor, the way it undid the Rubric?

Apparently it has something to do with Cypher. But who knows?

The Ethereals would likely sooner go extinct than yield. Cracking core sept worlds is not a luxury the current Imperium can afford, they can swat expansion spheres back all day, but pressing into the center of the Empire would leave them too exposed in the current climate.

Just have a ship stationed outside the Damocles Gulf. Every five years it fires 'the weapon' that can set entire Sectors of space on fire.

In fact, the Eldar would be better off with Chaos, because even if humanity falls, they've still got a better chance of riding out the storm of Chaos as it won't be actively trying to hunt them down. At the very least, it won't be united in its efforts to do so.

Why would Chaos be different to the Imperium? ...Once the Imperium falls, they go after Eldar, because we already know, Eldar souls are the most delicious of all.

Also I'm really hoping that you are making that up, because that sounds really stupid. The Emperor being a Necron experiment is just ugh.

Because the Warp is anathema to the C'Tan, there are vague references that Humanity developing and manifesting The Emperor, is the best thing that could've possibly happened to the C'Tan. They need to actively help The Emperor rise to whatever he wants to do; The Dragon of Mars helped The Emperor create the Omnissiah, which was required for The Emperor to do the thing.
I misspoke. The Emperor is not a C'Tan experiment. He is, however, a genocidal weapon, and the C'Tan would like him pointed in the right direction (i.e; At Chaos).

Additionally, the Pariah gene, in Humanity, was explicitly stated to be C'Tan's tampering with the gene pool for weapons vs. The Warp.

Of course, Necrons getting new Codex.
So retcons and conflicting fluff inbound.

[LansXero]

That's not how the Iron Cage went.

Dorn was ready to fight Guilliman over the Codex Astartes and dividing the Legions. The only reason he didn't, was because The Phalanx was staring down the Ultramar Fleet, and what Dorn was about to do would set the Imperium on fire...Again. Dorn was unwilling to do that, especially after what they'd just been through.

What Phalanx? The Phalanx is done for. Samus did a number on it, and the grand 'ring fleets' got the Imperial navy torn to pieces in isolated pockets because the head of the siege cant think in warp terms. As far as siege novels have gone, its limping outside the siege, useless as anything but a last resort ejection plan for the Emperor should the Palace fall. It's probably going to be in even worse shape by the end of it.

If it was just Guilliman and Dorn in a room. It would've gone very differently.

Its been just the Khan and Dorn in a room, and he cant reign him in. Its been just Sanguinius and Dorn in a room, with Hawkboy going and soloing Titans because he is tired of standing around being useless. Whatever his good points, he cant communicate with his brothers, they cant think on his terms and he cant bring himself to force them to.

Hence Dorn saying "**** that." anyway, and secretly enacting a protocol that would allow the Imperial Fists and their Successors to reform back into a Legion when needs must. The Codex Astartes is a good idea, in theory. But times change. We don't know what we'll need in the future, and the Legions were a pretty good idea. Guilliman is wrong. But I will agree to his terms because I have to.

Which is mostly a cop-out. Sanguinius didn't leave behind such a thing and yet its all of his lineage standing together at Baal. Because such a thing is simply common sense, you don't need Primarch level intellect or plans millenia in the making to realize sometimes 1000 guys just isnt enough.

Hell, they can start the story Divided. Fine.
Cawl Does The Thing.
Guess what Primarchs? Staying divided gets you and your Chapters killed.

Lets see.
The Lion is a paranoid mess for whom the Heresy happened very little ago, He always suspected he'd be betrayed until his Legion got poisoned by secrecy and infighting, and then he did get betrayed. So his worse fears were confirmed, and he killed his world, so it probably cemented his paranoia further.

Corax was in a suicidal bent but then pulled Russ out of his, but then he ended up going away because he can't deal with what happened with the Raptors (as far as we know). In the millenia since, his chapters became secretive, distant and known for team killing.

The Khan was loyal to a fault but the siege is already grinding into him. 30k WS are so much less 2 dimensional than 40k WS, he'd probably lament how much of their personality has been eroded away by 10000 years of war.

Vulkan already kept his return secret from his descendants and is all gloomy and mysterious, before he goes and fights the Beast.

Russ is a wreck, with so much bs to his name he should be put to death if he ever returns.

Other than absolute necessity, why or how would these broken supermen ever see eye to eye on anything? Not even at strategic level, as they all conduct warfare in such diverse ways. If Cawl does the Primaris schism, why would they take Roboute's word as worth anything, being the one who empowered and armed the Legions of enemies they now have to contend with, RIGHT AFTER BEING THE ONE WHO SAID THERE SHOULD BE NO LEGIONS ANYMORE.

The Primarchs are spent. As leaders of the Imperium they're done for. The Heresy and the Siege have done a number on them and what little is left will probably get broken down during the scouring. Its such a different war from the Great Crusade; no ideals, no goals, no hope. Just delaying the impending doom a little bit longer, until it ends all crashing down in failure with the Emperor dead and the dreams of humanity shattered.

Neither does Guilliman... Until he does, in 41K.
What Guilliman doesn't like, is the institutionalisation of faith.

I always felt he dislikes how inevitable it is.

Just have a ship stationed outside the Damocles Gulf. Every five years it fires 'the weapon' that can set entire Sectors of space on fire.

Wouldnt the combustible run out eventually?

[The Glyphstone]

Hack writers are an infinitely combustible commodity.

[Forum Explorer]

Why would Chaos be different to the Imperium? ...Once the Imperium falls, they go after Eldar, because we already know, Eldar souls are the most delicious of all.



Because the Warp is anathema to the C'Tan, there are vague references that Humanity developing and manifesting The Emperor, is the best thing that could've possibly happened to the C'Tan. They need to actively help The Emperor rise to whatever he wants to do; The Dragon of Mars helped The Emperor create the Omnissiah, which was required for The Emperor to do the thing.
I misspoke. The Emperor is not a C'Tan experiment. He is, however, a genocidal weapon, and the C'Tan would like him pointed in the right direction (i.e; At Chaos).

Additionally, the Pariah gene, in Humanity, was explicitly stated to be C'Tan's tampering with the gene pool for weapons vs. The Warp.

Of course, Necrons getting new Codex.
So retcons and conflicting fluff inbound.

Because Chaos is selfish and divided. I mean, most of Chaos is attacking the Imperium because for Chaos Space Marines, it's personal. They hate the Imperium, and want it to fall. Or carve out a chunk to rule, whatever. Without that motivation to motivate them, they wouldn't be able to bring the same force against the Eldar as they did to the Imperium.

Particularly since their main unifying force is Abbadon, who has a hate-boner for the Imperium, and doesn't give a **** about the Eldar. So while Chaos winning would be bad for the Eldar, I think the Emperor returning would be even worse.

Considering the current canon has the C'tan being shattered millions of years before the Emperor even existed, I doubt the C'tan would be too concerned about his existence. Not unless he was the key to bringing them back together and reforming back into proper C'tan. Also with the new 'Shard of the Void Dragon', I'm expecting the C'tan in Mars to either just be a shard, or not be a C'tan at all.

[hamishspence]

Maybe the new Shard of the Void Dragon is the C'tan from Mars, successfully retrieved in a Necron raid?

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Shr..._Light_Cruiser


In 998.M41, five Shroud-class Light Cruisers assaulted the Adeptus Mechanicus facility on Mars. Several managed to land on the soil of Mars itself and although they were all destroyed in the end, their hulks were never found. Since the Mars incident, six additional encounters have seen the Shroud acting as the forward eyes and ears of the Necron fleet. They excel in this role because no ship that is capable of catching them has the firepower to engage it. The fact that five of these light ships easily infiltrated the Mechanicus's homeworld, reinforces the danger the Necrons pose to the Imperium.

If they got hold of it and shunted it through one of their portals before their force was destroyed, that might work.

[Wraith]

The Imperium no longer has room for Primarchs having personality quirks flaws. Especially that given in a storyline where the Chaos Primarchs are getting off their arse and participating.

I feel that this bit falls apart when you remember that Guilliman has been awake for over a century. Cadia was trashed in M41.999 , Cawl and Cypher arrive on Ultramar, Guilliman wakes up, the Cicatrix Malificarum opened, he fights Magnus on Terra, the Indomitus Crusade began... hard-cut to the Plagues Wars in M42.111.

The Imperium is always imperilled, and the legions of Primaris Marines have barely held the line, yadda-yadda-yadda.... But there are long periods of 'business as usual' and the Chaos Primarchs are taking it in turns to show up every hundred years or so.
There's plenty of room for flawed characters - at least, as you said, to start with, before something specific happens to kick their arses and give them a reason to change.

But it makes a horrific narrative, and no in-Universe sense.

Blood Angels shaking hands with Necrons? Sisters of Battle being mulched up and used as anti-Daemon make-up by Grey Knights? Apocalypse War-zone: Damacles?

I mean, we're asking a lot by asking GW to pull the trigger on this plot; asking them to do it well might be asking too much?

It's not that the Primarchs can't disagree with each other in theory. It's that they would be forced by circumstances to not disagree in practice:

Fair enough; that, I can drink to.

Why would Chaos be different to the Imperium? ...Once the Imperium falls, they go after Eldar, because we already know, Eldar souls are the most delicious of all.

Probably because after Chaos and the Imperium have finished brutalising each other, whoever wins would be WAY smaller and easier to handle than both of them at their peak.

The Dragon of Mars helped The Emperor create the Omnissiah, which was required for The Emperor to do the thing.

Personal head-canon: The Dragon of Mars letting itself be caught by the Emperor and then put into a position where it has secret, unfettered access to the highest levels of the AdMech and human technology was all part of a long-running con. Something something 'greatest scam the Devil ever pulled', etc.

The Lion is a paranoid mess for whom the Heresy happened very little ago, He always suspected he'd be betrayed until his Legion got poisoned by secrecy and infighting, and then he did get betrayed. So his worse fears were confirmed, and he killed his world, so it probably cemented his paranoia further.

It's not paranoia if you're right.

Russ is a wreck, with so much bs to his name he should be put to death if he ever returns.

In all fairness, I found Russ somewhat redeemed by his The Primarchs: Leman Russ novel. It's set after the end of the Heresy and before Russ' disappearance, and the main theme of the story is how he realises what a moron he's been and what damage he's done to his brothers, while the Space Wolves themselves miss the point of what he's saying and think he's just boasting about that one time where he punched Lion El'Johnson in the face.

During the Heresy, he was a jerk. Afterwards, he's a lot more self-aware and its a really good move for him, I think.

[Thragka]

The idea that, faced with a definite, short-term existential threat, the leaders of humanity would put aside their differences, rather than polarise and descend into factionalism, frankly seems far too optimistic to suit the real world, let alone a grimdark setting.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, so the Ynnead undid the Rubric?

The Ynnead are eldar, right? More or less? And is the Rubric they undid The Rubric of Ahriman? Or is there some other Rubric I'm unfamiliar with? Can someone explain this?

The idea that, faced with a definite, short-term existential threat, the leaders of humanity would put aside their differences, rather than polarise and descend into factionalism, frankly seems far too optimistic to suit the real world, let alone a grimdark setting.

Too soon! Too soon!

[Cheesegear]

Wait, so Ynnead undid the Rubric?

No.
Yvraine demonstrated that it was possible to undo.

Yvraine: If you don't kill me, I'll tell you how to undo your mistake.
Ahriman: Not possible.
Yvraine: lol. *Undusts several Thousand Sons.*
Ahriman: Oh my gawwwd. You can live. Show me how.
Yvraine: lolno I lied. **** you, Chaos scum. *Kills the Thousand Sons*

[Renegade Paladin]

Eldar: Equal opportunity perfidy.

[Cikomyr2]

What if the Black Templars were actually Dorn's way of willingly evade the Codex's limitations on Chapter Size, while still having a single, mobile army that aren't exactly codex-compliant, number-wise.

The other Imperial Fists successor chapters just provides them a quiet supply of surplus Geneseed, Acolytes and wargear every decade or so. They have been penny-shaving the Imperium for 9,000 years.

[Grytorm]

Well I have definitely sparked discussion. And I don't know enough to go into really comment on everything. But I have a few things to mention.

Guilliman being on the status quo side is because he has already invested in fixing the Imperium. He would eventually be forced to rethink his position but by that point it would be hard. Some other Primarchs (don't know enough to know whom) would want to kill it and rebuild the Emperor's dream from scratch. Holy Terra, the Emperor, the Black Ships, and the Astronomicon would be the main areas where complications would arise. If they break the Imperium that causes problems.

Fair enough about Alpharius being dead. I don't know enough to have known that and Alpharius is easier to remember than Omegon. Someone was right upthread about needing to kill the Emperor properly. Normal Chaos wants the Emperor dead dead or maybe as a raging maelstrom to incoherent to feel anything but pain.

The Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons would be trying to turn the Emperor into a new Chaos God which would be independent of the other four. Storywise I imagine them as being successful but not getting what the hoped for. Instead the Warp Emperor or whatever would become the heart of a new faction that consists of Warp versions of His servants. He would seek to enfold many into His new order and would not take no for an answer.

The Eldar don't want the Alpha Legion to succeed because they believe that a Warp Emperor would be very bad for their continued survival. However I had forgotten about their new god which would probably open up a lot of options.

The other faction suggestions was an attempt to give them something to do. Tyranids and Necrons would fire off Chekov's Guns. Orks and Tau were me not knowing how they could get involved.

Lastly. The Webway thing and the Alpha Legion thing were based on random factoids I had seen. That the Alpha Legion apparently had some hidden reason to join Chaos and overly complicated plots seems their thing. Thousand Sons would join with the Alpha Legion because from what I know of the Chaos Primarchs Magnus has always seemed like the one who was had been least likely fall. Excluding Horus. Magnus and his Sons were dabbling in dangerous territory but they might have been able to pull back if the whole conflict with the Space Wolves hadn't burnt that option to the ground. The Webway thing. I saw something about the human Webway was destabalized and invaded by Daemons and so The Emperor and the Throne served to keep them trapped. My thought was that if the Webway still works except for the Daemons then a sufficiently motivated and dangerous group could make use of it.

[LansXero]

Guilliman being on the status quo side is because he has already invested in fixing the Imperium. Some other Primarchs (don't know enough to know whom) would want to kill it and rebuild the Emperor's dream from scratch.

Dorn and the Khan know you cant. Guilliman probably knows as well.

The Emperor's dream was very straightforward: Starve the chaos gods and build a human-controlled gate into the Webway. But this is just the means, the goal is the ascension of mankind to a psychic race. A bunch of Malcadors running around. This can't happen anymore because the Chaos Gods are more active than ever, the Cicatrix bleeds warp into realspace and humanity can't stay away from the warp because they need to travel, and the webway project is dead. So Human psykers get blown up, spawn randomly and are daemon fodder. The Imperium lost the moment Magnus broke the wards, everything else after that has been damage control.

From what I know of the Chaos Primarchs Magnus has always seemed like the one who was had been least likely fall

.

Would this be the Magnus that went and blew up Fenris not that long ago? 30k Magnus and 40k Magnus are two very different beings; Russ broke more than just his spine, he broke his soul. Current Magnus is missing the human part of himself, which was used to make the GK Grandmaster. So no dice.

. I saw something about the human Webway was destabalized and invaded by Daemons and so The Emperor and the Throne served to keep them trapped. My thought was that if the Webway still works except for the Daemons then a sufficiently motivated and dangerous group could make use of it.

The Emperor was beaten back. The Emperor leading Titans and Custodes at the peak of their ability was. beaten. back. You dont really get a more motivated and dangerous group than that and they could barely make an ordered retreat. The webway project is dead, and while the Emperor continues in the throne that gate is going to stay shut. Even a re-awakened / revived Emperor would probably keep it shut, as he was unable to fight infinity daemons off last time he tried. He even gave Vulkan a nuke failsafe in case the loyalists lost so badly that the traitors reached the gate.

[Cheesegear]

Guilliman being on the status quo side is because he has already invested in fixing the Imperium. He would eventually be forced to rethink his position but by that point it would be hard.

41K!Guilliman believes;
- Emperor might possibly actually be a God. But institutionalised worship of Him, and in particular the Institution itself, needs to be torn down.
- Could the AdMech actually do something productive for once?
- I didn't think you would take the Codex Astartes literally, and never, ever, ever update it!

Tear down the Ecclesiarchy.
Get the AdMech to participate in the Imperium.
What are Space Marines even doing right now!?

The problem being that Guilliman isn't actually The Emperor, and can't actually Get Things Done like He could. So despite the changes he wants to make, he doesn't wield enough personal power, and the institutions are too powerful with ten thousand years of backwards tradition behind them to actually change. If Guilliman had the backing of his Brothers, he would absolutely tear it down. 41K!Guilliman, with his Brothers, would burn that Codex Astartes, and each Primarch would do their own thing.

No Legions. Guilliman isn't stupid.
But there's definitely a number between 1000 and 'technically inifinity', that should be reasonable.

Some other Primarchs (don't know enough to know whom) would want to kill it and rebuild the Emperor's dream from scratch.

The Emperor's Dream is dead. It can't be rebuilt.
The first thing you need is a Deus ex Machina to obliterate the Great Rift. While the Cicatrix is active, Humanity will never be reunited.

The Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons would be trying to turn the Emperor into a new Chaos God which would be independent of the other four.

I don't know why the Emperor would reincarnate as a Chaos God. I don't even know why Magnus would think that would work.

Instead the Warp Emperor or whatever would become the heart of a new faction that consists of Warp versions of His servants. He would seek to enfold many into His new order and would not take no for an answer.

So, it would just be 30K all over again, but instead, the Emperor is an actual, unknowable God, who takes no roles in events just like Sigmar does(n't) in AoS?
If the Emperor isn't walking around, he's not interesting. If he's a God, he's not walking around.

That, or you reintroduce him as a Fraction of his former power, a la C'Tan Shards. But, in that case, he's not a God, and he's not The Emperor anymore.

I'll give it to you that if The Emperor becomes a God, that can be the DeM that removes the Rift from the Galaxy. But at that point, The Emperor is so powerful he can no longer participate in the narrative, and that would be lame.

That the Alpha Legion apparently had some hidden reason to join Chaos and overly complicated plots seems their thing.

It's not hidden. It's blatantly obvious.
- Alpharius joined Chaos because he knew that if he did, he could engineer it so that the Loyalists at least had a fighting chance. Apparently, the culmination of that plan is to force Dorn to stop being a ***** and actually get in the headspace where he might actually have to fight - and yes, kill - his own Brothers.

Under Alpharius, the Alpha Legion joined Chaos for reasons they didn't know. Under Omegon, without Alpharius, the Alpha Legion are just regular Chaos jerks, who assumed that Alpharius was also being a regular Chaos jerk, so just continue what they were doing.

However, annoyingly, the character development Dorn gets in Praetorian obviously needs to be undone, and by the Siege of Terra, Dorn is back to being a dumb dumb, because the Imperium can't have a competent commander who knows his enemy now, so the Siege of Terra can work because Dorn refuses to believe that Chaos is Real, even though he's seen it, he's got reports from Sigismund saying Chaos is real and for no reason at all he's saving his Librarians for...Something, apparently?

Garro had a face-to-face conversation with Dorn. Twice. "**** is real, Dorn." to which Dorn replied, twice. "I know. I got this."
Many, many, many books later, Dorn doesn't know (or he just forgot) and he is written so stupidly that he doesn't got this.
Despite the fact that he could read Alpharius like a book.

Thousand Sons would join with the Alpha Legion because from what I know of the Chaos Primarchs Magnus has always seemed like the one who was had been least likely fall.

...Until Magnus did Fall, his second-in-command, Ahriman, broke his Legion, and then everything went wrong.
Malcador then split Magnus' soul in half to create Grey Knights.
Leaving 41K!Magnus a very, very, very different being to 30K!Magnus.

Guilliman himself, knelt before Magnus and Fateweaver doing bro-fists with each other.

30K!Magnus is done.

My thought was that if the Webway still works except for the Daemons then a sufficiently motivated and dangerous group could make use of it.

That group is Harlequins.

[Borgh]

My headcanon is slowly turning to the "it was all a simulation after all" option regarding the HH books and especially the newer Siege novels. It could be all preparation for a lot of retconning in the 9th edition novels but that would be somewhat uncharacteristic of GW.

I mean, the books are pretty good and by themselves I have little issue with any of the reveals, it's jut that it is getting harder and harder to fit into what we know from 40k.

[Cheesegear]

My headcanon is slowly turning to the "it was all a simulation after all" option regarding the HH books and especially the newer Siege novels...

The Horus Heresy:
The Primarchs need to be represented as competent commanders, otherwise our suspension of disbelief totally shatters.
The Primarchs need to address and/or overcome their personal character flaws and knowledge gaps, otherwise where's the narrative?

The Siege of Terra:
This is a new series, where the characters have the same name as characters from another series. The Loyalists can't be competent or the Siege can't work, and they still have their one-dimensional character flaws, that way they have an excuse for being stupid.

[Platinius]

Hmm, I have not read a single one of the Horus Heresy books.

Truth be told, I think most Black Library stuff is only for people that are already fans and not all that interesting to newcomers.

Soul Hunter is one of the few exceptions and is really, really good. So good in fact that it genuinely elevates the setting from a dark and mostly action laden if very fun setting to something truly intense, yet thoughtful and oh so deeply human (while still being fun and action and trademarked grimdark^^)


EDIT: that means I would recommend it to non-fans even if they ignore the rest of the entire BL

[lord_khaine]

That group is Harlequins.

You dont need to get that specific. Regular Eldars use it as well.
They just dont know it as well as Harlequins.

[xroads]

Hmm, I have not read a single one of the Horus Heresy books.

Truth be told, I think most Black Library stuff is only for people that are already fans and not all that interesting to newcomers.

Soul Hunter is one of the few exceptions and is really, really good. So good in fact that it genuinely elevates the setting from a dark and mostly action laden if very fun setting to something truly intense, yet thoughtful and oh so deeply human (while still being fun and action and trademarked grimdark^^)


EDIT: that means I would recommend it to non-fans even if they ignore the rest of the entire BL

Some of their stuff, for sure. But I think a lot of their stuff appeals to audiences that enjoy war novels.

And they're trying to grab new audiences. For example, one of their recent attempts is the creation of the Warhammer Adventures: Tales for Younger Readers.

[lord_khaine]

Probably because after Chaos and the Imperium have finished brutalising each other, whoever wins would be WAY smaller and easier to handle than both of them at their peak.

Also, a victorious Chaos would likely be a lot more prone to infighting than a victorious Empire.
Every champion crave the attention of his patron god. Killing rival champions is one of the best ways to get that.
It is very possibly that Chaos without a obvious target would manage to destroy itself.

Unlike the Empire, who are still working on its founders genocide plan whenever they get a chance.

[JNAProductions]

Talk to me about Perturabo. Especially "modern-day" Perturabo. What's known? What's hinted at? What's guessed?