Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Cheesegear]

Yeah... no. Maybe at first. You have decades of videogames, novels, previous editions, fandex, etc. to crib from.

In the age of the internet, World of WarCraft (Blizzard) had a 'Loremaster'. That is, before anything got written, somebody would check the WoWWiki to see what had previously been written because fans turned out to be far more accurate than the company when it came to researching two decades worth of lore, because of course, it's not like an employee at the company has read everything that's ever been put out, ever. But that collectively, every fan has read every Thing...Just ask them how [X] works.

I believe that after Cataclysm, a 'Loremaster' was no longer required at the company. And that's turned out...How it's turned out.

[Wraith]

I am sure I've read in an interview somewhere that GW have their own internal "Lexicanum" that includes a summary of all their lore and such - including plot lines as yet to be written or revealed, so that prospective writers can check it to see where the game is supposed to "go".

Not that it helps them write good rules or stop them from killing off fun and interesting characters when it suits them, and I will bet real money that they actually use the Lexicanum too - because pedantic internet nerds are an infinite and free resource - but it's good to know that somewhere their plans are centralised and not just left to Phil Kelly to do as much long-winded research as he can be bothered with before he starts writing.

[LeSwordfish]

GW have always been fairly loose with their own lore, which honestly I'm fine with. It keeps it accessible to not worry about everything in the past: compare to the old SWEU where every possible jumping-on point was a web of references to thirty years of paperbacks.

[snowblizz]

I am sure I've read in an interview somewhere that GW have their own internal "Lexicanum" that includes a summary of all their lore and such - including plot lines as yet to be written or revealed, so that prospective writers can check it to see where the game is supposed to "go".

Not that it helps them write good rules or stop them from killing off fun and interesting characters when it suits them, and I will bet real money that they actually use the Lexicanum too - because pedantic internet nerds are an infinite and free resource - but it's good to know that somewhere their plans are centralised and not just left to Phil Kelly to do as much long-winded research as he can be bothered with before he starts writing.

I know they've said Black Library had such a position for one of the editors to keep the book authors on at least some common ground.

[LansXero]

I know they've said Black Library had such a position for one of the editors to keep the book authors on at least some common ground.

Dont know if we're remembering the same thing, but Im sure this was the case for the Heresy (and yet...), not sure if it applied to BL in general.

But back to my original point, people seem keen to excuse the work paid professionals do in a multi million company as if this was some indie studio filled with dreams on a shoestring budget. GW might've been that once, dont know, not old enough, but right now they dont actually have any excuses, specially when they keep pushing constant price increases on stuff that kept getting cheaper to make over in China.

[Platinius]

I have a question.
Many years ago, I read somewhere that the Geneseed is not just there for making new SM, but actually stores anti-body information of every infectious disease encountered by a SM.
That would make each new generation of SM resistant to any infectious disease encountered by any single one of his (SM) ancestors.

I thought it was a neat little detail, but is it actually true or am I just misremembering stuff?

[Cheesegear]

Many years ago, I read somewhere that the Geneseed [...] stores anti-body information of every infectious disease encountered by a SM.

Correct. That is how anti-bodies work.

That would make each new generation of SM resistant to any infectious disease encountered by any single one of his (SM) ancestors.

No it wouldn't, because 'gene-seed' actually refers to:
a) 19 different organs, or
b) Specifically, the Progenoid Gland, which only contains DNA (i.e; Sperm cells), which causes Space Marines to morph and resemble their Primarch - and each other.

What you really need to do is start harvesting Space Marine livers, lymph nodes and Oolotic Kidneys.

I thought it was a neat little detail, but is it actually true or am I just misremembering stuff?

The problem is that 'gene-seed' has two meanings, depending on the context:
A Space Marine's gene-seed, yes, does make him immune to poisons, and due to adaptive immunity, anti-bodies do exist to anything they've ever encountered before.
The gene-seed from a dead Space Marine, transferred into another Space Marine, isn't that same gene-seed.

What you really want to do, is encounter poisons in controlled settings:
An Apothecary encounters Tyranids, and collects poison samples.
Go home to Chapter.
Start immunising Space Marines against Tyranid poison using vaccines.

[Platinius]

Correct. That is how anti-bodies work.



No it wouldn't, because 'gene-seed' actually refers to:
a) 19 different organs, or
b) Specifically, the Progenoid Gland, which only contains DNA (i.e; Sperm cells), which causes Space Marines to morph and resemble their Primarch - and each other.

What you really need to do is start harvesting Space Marine livers, lymph nodes and Oolotic Kidneys.



The problem is that 'gene-seed' has two meanings, depending on the context:
A Space Marine's gene-seed, yes, does make him immune to poisons, and due to adaptive immunity, anti-bodies do exist to anything they've ever encountered before.
The gene-seed from a dead Space Marine, transferred into another Space Marine, isn't that same gene-seed.

What you really want to do, is encounter poisons in controlled settings:
An Apothecary encounters Tyranids, and collects poison samples.
Go home to Chapter.
Start immunising Space Marines against Tyranid poison using vaccines.

I liked that idea because it would have been neat to see that at least in a few regards, the SMs would have actually improved over their many generations.

I originally wanted to write Progenoid Gland if it makes it clearer, but I still got my answer.

And you actually make a good point, the Apothecaries should harvest as many organs as possible with the Progenoid Glands naturally at the top of the priority list. Most SM within the same chapter should be able to accept most organs from most of their dead chapter brothers since the SM transformation process actually makes them biologically much closer.
Note that these organs would only be replacement organs for fully transformed Marines, an Initiate's body might simply reject them outright depending on how far his body is along the transformation process.





On a different note: Commissar Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!, enjoy!

[Cheesegear]

I liked that idea because it would have been neat to see that at least in a few regards, the SMs would have actually improved over their many generations.

The Progenoid Gland is the last gland implanted, and it replaces any 'junk DNA' left in the Neophyte, with Primarch DNA. The Progenoid would then take the 'good' DNA from the Neophyte, and later, the Progenoid is implanted into another recruit somewhere down the line, successively making each generation more and more perfect, as each generation became more and more like their Primarch. Until you're not simply producing 'Sons' of a Primarch, but Clones... That's bad. Narratively speaking.
(Ignoring the fact that Abaddon himself, is rumoured to be an imperfect Clone of Horus...)

However, this was dropped because very quickly, you should have 'Perfect' Marines, on par with Primarchs (More Abaddons?), running around the Galaxy, completely ruining the story, the narrative and obliterating and danger posed to the Space Marine, because they are in fact, perfect... At least in a few generations. Same as Genestealers.

Thus, 'Space Marines weren't supposed to be around this long' quote from the Emperor, and their DNA actually degrades, rather than improves, hence the Tithe to Mars to keep the stock good.

Yes, Space Marines should improve over many generations, and that was the case...For a while.
And then they stopped improving because narrative had to happen... More accurately GW just removed the idea from the fluff. Or explained it away in novels like Master of Mankind and quotes from Malcador.

But the idea that anti-bodies could be passed successively...Was not correct. Otherwise Ultramarines would be immune to Tyranids, because the Tyrannic War Veterans, who somehow became immune to Tyranid venom (i.e; By being exposed to it, and not dying), would pass on their immune system. Which isn't the case.

[LansXero]

An Apothecary encounters Tyranids, and collects poison samples.
Go home to Chapter.
Start immunising Space Marines against Tyranid poison using vaccines.

Wasn't this sort of impossible because even tyranid microbes are controlled by the hive mind so its like fighting a sentient virus?

[Voidhawk]

Tyranid poisons and micro-organisms change/evolve constantly, so the idea of hereditary immunity to them is laughable. Each Hive Fleet's are different, and they can vary them by brood if they want to. Hive Fleet Gorgon in particular was notorious for adapting its toxins and spores to precisely attack their enemy, directing them psychically to change while they're inside their host.

There's even an example in the 'nid codex of some specially created Gorgon spores melting Plague Marines to the bone.

[Platinius]

Wasn't this sort of impossible because even tyranid microbes are controlled by the hive mind so its like fighting a sentient virus?

That sounds like an X-Men villain^^

[Silverraptor]

Ci- Ci- Ciaphas Cain! Hero of the Imperium!

[Fyraltari]

On a different note: Commissar Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!, enjoy!

I love that the joke is that there's already a joke. This is exactly what Ciaphas Cain is like.

[Lord Raziere]

i love that the joke is that there's already a joke. This is exactly what Ciaphas Cain is like.

Yeah, they didn't need to change anything. He fits perfectly within the TTS-verse without any changes. The only real change I see is explicitly calling what he has impostor syndrome which is a completely valid interpretation of him, but not one I think would be as widely known as it is now.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've never related to a character more strongly than this.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, they didn't need to change anything. He fits perfectly within the TTS-verse without any changes. The only real change I see is explicitly calling what he has impostor syndrome which is a completely valid interpretation of him, but not one I think would be as widely known as it is now.

I mean, I've read the first omnibooks for the first time two weeks ago and the words "Impostor syndrome" just jumped at me. The guy's reaction to being stuck in a corridor by genestealers on one side and hybrids on the other is "the tight knot of fear disappeared, replaced by the calm certainty that nothing I did now would make any difference, but i was damn well taking as many of the bastards with me as I could."
And the text itself (in the form of Vail's editor's notes) point out that he never gives himself any credit for anything, so I'm not really sure how you can interpret it otherwise than a guy beating himself up for having perfectly natural reactions (fear) when he thinks he's not supposed to.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean, I've read the first omnibooks for the first time two weeks ago and the words "Impostor syndrome" just jumped at me. The guy's reaction to being stuck in a corridor by genestealers on one side and hybrids on the other is "the tight knot of fear disappeared, replaced by the calm certainty that nothing I did now would make any difference, but i was damn well taking as many of the bastards with me as I could."
And the text itself (in the form of Vail's editor's notes) point out that he never gives himself any credit for anything, so I'm not really sure how you can interpret it otherwise than a guy beating himself up for having perfectly natural reactions (fear) when he thinks he's not supposed to.

He has impostor syndrome, but he's not necessarily a fraud or a failure; he just feels like it because he doesn't live up to the idea people have of him.

But Cain is nevertheless a *good person*. He cares about people around him, is a good tactician, has real charisma, a fantastic fighter and a crack shot.

He also had Jurgen as his beloved aide *before* he learned Jurgen was superspecial. He saw the diamond in the rough that was Jurgen's skills and never let his superficial distaste of the man get in the way of caring about him. And Jurgen *is* a fantastic soldier. He is a crack shot, has a supreme brain for everything logistics and scrounging and is basically fearless.

Cain is a great individual who just feels he can't live up to his reputation.

And also suffers from a lot, lot, lot of survivor's guilt.

[xroads]

I’m a big fan of the Ciaphas Cain series and have read most of the books.

On the one hand, he can be seen as a reluctant hero who has his fair share of imposter syndrome. One that doesn’t give himself enough credit. His habit of savings people’s lives even when it doesn’t always directly benefit him may attest to this.

But on the other hand, he can be seen as an imposter. One that often tries to con his way into safe cozy positions, but fails because of bad luck or his undeserved reputation. One whose stated reason for saving others, at least what he says to himself, is to have more meat shields between him and the monsters of the week.

The author of the Cain series has even stated that Cain was inspired by opportunistic and self-serving protagonists such as Harry Flashman and Edmund Blackadder.

It’s this last perspective that really got me into the series. I love the idea of a conman who is stuck playing the reluctant hero, if only to save his own neck. Cain is such a fun character to have running around an otherwise grim dark universe.

[AGow95]

The author of the Cain series has even stated that Cain was inspired by opportunistic and self-serving protagonists such as Harry Flashman and Edmund Blackadder.

It’s this last perspective that really got me into the series. I love the idea of a conman who is stuck playing the reluctant hero, if only to save his own neck. Cain is such a fun character to have running around an otherwise grim dark universe.

Plus it is an endless joy to read his and Jurgen's lines in the voices of Blackadder and Baldrick respectively.

[Voidhawk]

Plus it is an endless joy to read his and Jurgen's lines in the voices of Blackadder and Baldrick respectively.

"I have a cunning plan!"
- Jurgen, 5 secs before firing his meltagun

[Kris Strife]

"I have a cunning plan!"
- Jurgen, 5 secs before firing his meltagun

To be fair, melta guns are potent problem solving tools.

[Wraith]

Ciaphas Cain reads as enduring Imposter Syndrome only if you take his words - and he confesses that he is a cheat, a liar and intentionally out for his own best interest - at face value. There are other theories in the fandom that are plausible.

One is that he is just an abject coward who keeps getting incredibly unlucky - running away from a fight only to end up in an even bigger fight - and then incredibly lucky when circumstances turn out dangerous but ultimately victorious. What is written in the novels - his diaries explaining what happened in hindsight - are his own attempts at hiding his actions to prevent his escape attempts from being found out. Not quite a confession, but a way for him to process his feelings of guilt for being so heavily rewarded for what are essentially coincidences.

It's also suggested that he is genuinely corrupted and keeps trying to subvert the Imperium from within, only for farcical luck to conspire against him. In this light, his diaries are similar in that they're trying to hide his true intentions under a veneer of faux-modest heroism. Why else would an Imperial Inquisitor be reviewing and annotating them so many years after the event?

And of course there's the Zorg Theorem, which states that the Cain memoirs are written entirely by Amberley Vail - a 15 year old Agri-World worker with nothing better to do after lights out.

[snowblizz]

Ciaphas Cain reads as enduring Imposter Syndrome only if you take his words - and he confesses that he is a cheat, a liar and intentionally out for his own best interest - at face value. There are other theories in the fandom that are plausible.

One is that he is just an abject coward who keeps getting incredibly unlucky - running away from a fight only to end up in an even bigger fight - and then incredibly lucky when circumstances turn out dangerous but ultimately victorious. What is written in the novels - his diaries explaining what happened in hindsight - are his own attempts at hiding his actions to prevent his escape attempts from being found out. Not quite a confession, but a way for him to process his feelings of guilt for being so heavily rewarded for what are essentially coincidences.

It's also suggested that he is genuinely corrupted and keeps trying to subvert the Imperium from within, only for farcical luck to conspire against him. In this light, his diaries are similar in that they're trying to hide his true intentions under a veneer of faux-modest heroism. Why else would an Imperial Inquisitor be reviewing and annotating them so many years after the event?

And of course there's the Zorg Theorem, which states that the Cain memoirs are written entirely by Amberley Vail - a 15 year old Agri-World worker with nothing better to do after lights out.

I always read Cain as the Matrim Cauthon (from Wheel of Time) of 40k. HE doesn't want any of this but Fate/Emperor always places him in just the right spot and he isn't a bad enough person to not take up the mantle when needed.

I'd argue Cain, is an Imperial Saint effectively, a vessel through which the Emperor works. Except he is trying hard not to be (I agree with the general imposter syndrome idea). If he'd recognized this and embraced it he'd probably be counted alongside people like Macharius. The Emperor works in mysterious ways.

[hamishspence]

"I have a cunning plan!"
- Jurgen, 5 secs before firing his meltagun

Book one: For The Emperor, comes close to that formulation:

"I have a plan."
"A particularly devious one, no doubt."

[Voidhawk]

In universe, "The Cain Archive" is entirely parsed through the editorial lens of Inquisitor Amberley Vail, ostensibly as reference material for other inquisitors. Whatever interpretation can be found is laid down more by her than him.

What shape might this lens take? She would know that those reading would have the authority to cross-reference the plain facts of the matter: Cain existed, was in the places and times mentioned, and was well thought of by those who encountered him (Space Marines, General Sulla, etc). So we can accept that those are likely all true. Where she is most likely to have embellished is any situation where Cain was alone, or the only survivor.

To put forward a conspiracy of my own:

Spoiler

Show

The most suspicious moment in the series will always be when Cain escaped the Slaaneshi sex-school. It was early in his career, and his account is the only info on what happened inside. If we consider that during this time he was seduced/infected/corrupted/blessed by slaaneshi warp-taint, perhaps willingly, then we can put a new spin on everything that comes afterwards:

- Cain is well known for being one of the best (non-astartes) swordsmen in the sector. Duelling ability is famous for being both sought out, and granted by, Slaanesh.
- His luck is a warp-blessing. Invulnerable saves come in many forms.
- Jurgen was never Blank: that's a cover story for how Cain goes up against warp-powered enemies like the Genestealer Patriarch and triumphs.
- He never fought the slaaneshi daemon prince: they just talked, and she twisted the minds of the observers before she left.
- The observers then went on to have him canonised as a Tallarn saint: all belief goes straight to Slaanesh.
- He's most terrified of Necrons because his blessings don't work with them.
- Amberley Vail is a Radical inquisitor, possibly Chaos aligned, using the archive to help cover up her and Cain's actions in a positive light.

Of course there's no proof at all here... but when have Inquisitorial suspicions needed that?

[Wraith]

- Amberley Vail is a Radical inquisitor, possibly Chaos aligned, using the archive to help cover up her and Cain's actions in a positive light.

Bare in mind that Cain and Vale were romantically and sexually involved, on and off, for the better part of a century.
It is entirely plausible, within the grimdark purview of 40k, that Vale isn't just Radical but is in fact a co-conspirator with Cain, and is using her position of authority to cover up their tracks after the fact. It's definitely likely that members of one Chaos faction would kill members of other Chaos factions - the Slaaneshi sex-convent, the Tyrant, the Khornate Marines - in order to allow their own to prosper.

At most charitable, we could suggest that she was fooled by his handsome, charismatic exterior and is now using the opportunity to 'annotate' his diaries as an excuse to hide his more nefarious exploits in order to cover her own back.

For what it's worth, I personally feel that Cain is a more direct expy of Edmund Blackadder, than he is a complex and emotionally damaged introspective - he's talented and capable, but ultimately lazy. He downplays his exploits because he knows that if he becomes truly famous, he'll be asked to do increasingly dangerous things in the future when really all he wants is authority, but without responsibility. After all; He always said that his best days with the Guard were when he was with the Artillery battery, because they were usually far, far away from the fighting.

[Cikomyr2]

The thread took a dark turn

[Lord Torath]

The thread took a dark turn

Well, in the grim warness of the far future, there is only dark!

[lord_khaine]

It is a little tricky to figure out whats going on with Cain.
In part because he clearly is such a unreliable narrator. We got several accounts of Cain himself confessing to be a coward, who tries to stay as far behind the front as possible.
But on the other hand, we do have the person who likely know him the best, Vale, say Cain is to hard on himself.