Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[LCP]

Imperial Fists get some love

Finally, a book about Sir Michael Space.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

*gasps heretically*

Daemonifuge? I remember that from back in the day.

Makes me wonder if they'll ever redo that weird comic series about Blood Angels exiles chasing a lost sword (into the Eye of Terror!), or the one where a princeps cadet gets field promoted when the princeps of the titan he's observing dies suddenly. Also the dead princeps remains inside the titan's mind like some kind of ghostly advisor for the new guy. That was some trippy stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

Titan: God Machine. The only graphic novel I have ever owned, and still a worthy read.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Titan: God Machine. The only graphic novel I have ever owned, and still a worthy read.

That's the one. I like how it depicted the connection process between princeps and Titan, giving us a glimpse at an actual Machine Spirit. Visual metaphor, I guess, but still.

It also showed the connection to be somewhat addictive. Not sure if that's canon, but it makes sense. You go from human to gigantic war machine to human again.

Slightly unrelated, but I remember when I first watched Pacific Rim, I thought about this very series. There's no motion capture shenanigans in an Imperial Titan of course, but at least in the comic the princeps seems to "feel" what the Titan is doing.

[Drasius]

*gasps heretically*

Daemonifuge? I remember that from back in the day.

Makes me wonder if they'll ever redo ... the one where a princeps cadet gets field promoted when the princeps of the titan he's observing dies suddenly. Also the dead princeps remains inside the titan's mind like some kind of ghostly advisor for the new guy. That was some trippy stuff.

They redid/rereleased that a year or two ago.

[Platinius]

New stuff

Enjoy!

[Amechra]

New stuff

Enjoy!

That should go in the Warhammer Fantasy thread that we don't have. Yes, even though it has the Man-Emperor, Lord Adornable, and Magnus.

(Also, Ulrich's Fury is still the best name for a crit rule.)

[Renegade Paladin]

That should go in the Warhammer Fantasy thread that we don't have. Yes, even though it has the Man-Emperor, Lord Adornable, and Magnus.

(Also, Ulrich's Fury is still the best name for a crit rule.)

We may have to have one again pretty soon...

[Silverraptor]

New stuff

Enjoy!

Magnus is a bad GM.

[Amechra]

Magnus is a bad GM.

He makes a dozen rookie mistakes before the game goes 5 minutes. It is glorious.

[Silverraptor]

He makes a dozen rookie mistakes before the game goes 5 minutes. It is glorious.

Indeed.

Spoiler: About the special

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Little miffed that the rando characters they all made were brought into the throne room but the 3rd custodies wasn't.

[Amechra]

Indeed.

Spoiler: About the special

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Little miffed that the rando characters they all made were brought into the throne room but the 3rd custodies wasn't.

Spoiler: Also about the special

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Custodisi knows what he did.

[Silverraptor]

I have a question involving chaos forces. So you know there are raiding forces of chaos that drop in and cause mayhem and then leave and some of these members and astartes were from the original horus heresey. If any of them die during these raids, do they die, die for good? Or do they get absorbed back into the warp like some of these demons? Because I would imagine if they die their numbers would be dwindling down to zero as the conflicts and years flow on.

[Forum Explorer]

I have a question involving chaos forces. So you know there are raiding forces of chaos that drop in and cause mayhem and then leave and some of these members and astartes were from the original horus heresey. If any of them die during these raids, do they die, die for good? Or do they get absorbed back into the warp like some of these demons? Because I would imagine if they die their numbers would be dwindling down to zero as the conflicts and years flow on.

Most die for good, but they might get rescued by Chaos if they are good enough champions/Chaos has a purpose for them.

[druid91]

There's also the time shenanigans of the warp to consider. Just because the Crippled Scar warband was killed ten years ago on Cadia from a material perspective, doesn't mean they couldn't pop out of the warp today to try and kill you.

[The Glyphstone]

The supply of original Legionaires does dwindle over time, but the Traitor Legions can recruit and replenish their numbers just like loyalists. They're just less likely to ask permission.

[Platinius]

You say that like the Loyalists are in the habit of asking for permission^^

[The Glyphstone]

You say that like the Loyalists are in the habit of asking for permission^^

That's why I said 'less' likely. 😁 Some of them do, sometimes.

[Silverraptor]

There's also the time shenanigans of the warp to consider. Just because the Crippled Scar warband was killed ten years ago on Cadia from a material perspective, doesn't mean they couldn't pop out of the warp today to try and kill you.

But that particular guy who pops out 10 years later can't die this time because he needs to pop out 10 years in the past to die then and there, right?

[Cheesegear]

But that particular guy who pops out 10 years later can't die this time because he needs to pop out 10 years in the past to die then and there, right?

Causality is hard. That's why GW quietly dropped the 'travel backwards in time' aspect of the Warp.

[Grim Portent]

Causality is hard. That's why GW quietly dropped the 'travel backwards in time' aspect of the Warp.

Did they? Backwards time travel pops up in Abaddon's fluff and the fluff for the chaos knights of House Khymere. The former learned knowledge from a future version of himself before it popped out of existence from paradoxes, the latter went back in time and caused the accusations of betrayal that lead to them fleeing into the Great Rift and then travelling back in time. Plus isn't it still canon that Argel-Tal was sent back in time to destroy the gellar field protecting the lab the primarchs were made in so the gods could scatter them?

[Cheesegear]

Did they? Backwards time travel pops up in Abaddon's fluff [...] The former learned knowledge from a future version of himself before it popped out of existence from paradoxes...

Which is the only time I can think of where time travel actually impacted the past-future self.

Argel Tal is an awful example of time travel, because all's he does is set in motion the events that we already know, happen. Nothing is actually changed. Merely, the story unfolds exactly as it...Does.

[Grim Portent]

Would you consider Lady Brinhild and the other knights of Khymere as impacting the future of their past self?

They form a loop where they only fell because they were falsely accused of treachery, but they were only accused of treachery because they travelled back in time (unintentionally) and tried to get revenge for being falsely accused of treachery in the future.

Thinking about it, theoretically there should be multiple instances of each House Khymere knight, they go back in time, create the circumstances that lead to their fall and then continue existing past the point where their past selves go back in time, so there should be big looping numbers of them unless we assume 40k to work on multiple timelines.

[Destro_Yersul]

Which is the only time I can think of where time travel actually impacted the past-future self.

Argel Tal is an awful example of time travel, because all's he does is set in motion the events that we already know, happen. Nothing is actually changed. Merely, the story unfolds exactly as it...Does.

There's also....

Spoiler

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The whole thing with Astreaos in John French's Ahriman books. Ahriman takes in Astreaos, and a couple other renegades from a chapter that was destroyed by the Inquisition for disloyalty. It turns out, that disloyalty was Astreaos himself, working with Ahriman after they went back in time.

[Forum Explorer]

Causality is hard. That's why GW quietly dropped the 'travel backwards in time' aspect of the Warp.

Isn't Thraka in multiple places at the same time due to travelling through the Warp?

[Cheesegear]

Would you consider Lady Brinhild and the other knights of Khymere as impacting the future of their past self?

Yes. But that's not what makes time travel interesting. What makes time travel interesting is the ability to imapact the past of their future self, which causes paradoxes and forces people to implode.

A future self, travelling into the past, to create the scenario in which the future self exists in the first place, is simply telling the story, where the author is lazy has already pre-determined the ending, which is the point that they want to arrive at. Which is the same problem that all prequels have. Which also includes the entire Horus Heresy. We already know the entire outcome of the Heresy, all's the authors - as good as they are - are doing, is getting us to the pre-determined point.

Is the journey more important than the ending? Sometimes. But not all the time.

They form a loop where they only fell because they were falsely accused of treachery, but they were only accused of treachery because they travelled back in time (unintentionally) and tried to get revenge for being falsely accused of treachery in the future.

Thinking about it, theoretically there should be multiple instances of each House Khymere knight...

Now you're getting it. If you really think about time travel, it should be hard to write. That's why most writers take the easy way - that is, pre-determined endings (i.e; Creating the status quo of the timeline you're already in) - or, they do the lazy way (e.g; Doctor Who), where OMG Past Self and Future Self are interacting with each other!!! Except that Future!Self can't really do anything interesting, because then they'd implode themselves, so Past!Self does all the work, whilst Future!Self kind of just...Hangs out. Or Avengers time travel by way of multi-verse theory so that nothing you do, matters, because your future!timeline can't be affected.

Or, you know, just don't use time travel for your stories unless you plan on creating paradoxes or causality problems that change things and make an interesting story.

[Avaris]

Time travel is definitely still a thing in the 40k universe; the latest WD mentions the Ordo Chronos and their role in hunting down people who are temporal anomalies. But for the reasons Cheesegear explains I doubt it will appear much as a detailed story: it’s one of those hooks that is in the setting to potentially use but which is otherwise left to the imagination.

[Borgh]

There is also the way

Spoiler: Black legion spoiler

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that Ashur-Kai is his own grandpa kidnapper

I like how ADB handles timetravel: it is never pivotal or a serious plot point, always just a hook or interesting anecdote. keeps things tidy.

[Misery Esquire]

Yes. But that's not what makes time travel interesting. What makes time travel interesting is the ability to imapact the past of their future self, which causes paradoxes and forces people to implode.

A future self, travelling into the past, to create the scenario in which the future self exists in the first place, is simply telling the story, where the author is lazy has already pre-determined the ending, which is the point that they want to arrive at. Which is the same problem that all prequels have. Which also includes the entire Horus Heresy. We already know the entire outcome of the Heresy, all's the authors - as good as they are - are doing, is getting us to the pre-determined point.

Is the journey more important than the ending? Sometimes. But not all the time.

But you're espousing support for a narrative chain that would be 100% journey without destination.

(Or, I suppose, it would have the ultimate destination of everyone (death), but that's not really a narrative conclusion.)

(See below)

Now you're getting it. If you really think about time travel, it should be hard to write. That's why most writers take the easy way - that is, pre-determined endings (i.e; Creating the status quo of the timeline you're already in) - or, they do the lazy way (e.g; Doctor Who), where OMG Past Self and Future Self are interacting with each other!!! Except that Future!Self can't really do anything interesting, because then they'd implode themselves, so Past!Self does all the work, whilst Future!Self kind of just...Hangs out. Or Avengers time travel by way of multi-verse theory so that nothing you do, matters, because your future!timeline can't be affected.

Or, you know, just don't use time travel for your stories unless you plan on creating paradoxes or causality problems that change things and make an interesting story.

But each of those Knights would always do the same thing, causing the same chain, and then the same thing happens. Externally time travel will always be boring, because the only way for it to work is if it works, because if it didn't work we wouldn't have a story. We could have a philosophical (or theoretical) argument that happens to use narrative metaphors - but oddly enough, having an argument with yourself (authorwise) for 300 pages usually isn't a good story, even if it is good philosophy.

Having a paradox immediately and retroactively removes the previous ongoings in the story- or at least renders them irrelevant to the character. And probably the reader, excepting if they're upset about the narrative of the character ending with spontaneous existence failure. Or having the universe instantly implode; a non-option in a shared narrative universe like Warhammer, and not suggested to any writer hopefuls out there. Because people don't like "And so, Ahriman [used the ritual fluff] to go back in time to get into the Black Library, but instead the universe collapsed before it existed and everything is dead."

Paradoxes are the most boring option possible. Continue to use traditional looping narratives if you want to have a story.

[noob]

But you're espousing support for a narrative chain that would be 100% journey without destination.

(Or, I suppose, it would have the ultimate destination of everyone (death), but that's not really a narrative conclusion.)

(See below)



But each of those Knights would always do the same thing, causing the same chain, and then the same thing happens. Externally time travel will always be boring, because the only way for it to work is if it works, because if it didn't work we wouldn't have a story. We could have a philosophical (or theoretical) argument that happens to use narrative metaphors - but oddly enough, having an argument with yourself (authorwise) for 300 pages usually isn't a good story, even if it is good philosophy.

Having a paradox immediately and retroactively removes the previous ongoings in the story- or at least renders them irrelevant to the character. And probably the reader, excepting if they're upset about the narrative of the character ending with spontaneous existence failure. Or having the universe instantly implode; a non-option in a shared narrative universe like Warhammer, and not suggested to any writer hopefuls out there. Because people don't like "And so, Ahriman [used the ritual fluff] to go back in time to get into the Black Library, but instead the universe collapsed before it existed and everything is dead."

Paradoxes are the most boring option possible. Continue to use traditional looping narratives if you want to have a story.

There is other narratives than loops for time travels and loops seems the least coherent and least meaningful system for time travel: a loop is essentially just here saying "causality does not exists" which basically invalidates most ethics and a whole lot of other things like that.
Time travel with a meta time and new universe creation time travel(you create a new universe that is just like how your universe was in the past) are both a lot easier to write with and does not invalidates causality(Things have causes so you do not have things appearing because they appeared or time loops that exists only because they exists).
In fact time loops are so incoherent and so awful that sometimes the author tries to make a time loop(probably because they did read other stories with that and did not think of alternate forms of time travel) then they try to make it have a cause other than itself because when you remove causality any story might lose entirely any value(I mean you no longer need justification for anything to happen if there is no causes) so by intuition they can not stop themselves from trying to turn causal their acausal construct(while they could have simply picked a causal form of time travel)

So I think there should be more time travel stories that works in a causal way so that people that reads time travel stories then tries to make one are more likely to figure out that if they want causal stories(stories where things have a cause) with time travel they can have that and it does not makes more complex stories.(in fact it can make much simpler stories if you wish to)
Because intuitively humans works assuming stuff have causes and then they usually try to make stories where stuff have causes without even thinking about it because it is a very intuitive idea.

Also did you play Archon?