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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    You'll never see two Navigators on one ship though. Ever.
    A few of the early Horus Heresy stories mentioned a Navigator being killed and replaced in places far, far away for Terra. So presumably, Explorator fleets carried a few spares - as in, one or two per fleet, which could be dozens of ships.

    Octavia was similarly a 'spare' Navigator for the Covenant of Blood in the Night Lords trilogy. That one was kind of wonky, due to why Talos recruited her and the fact that he's heretic Astartes, but otherwise no one remarks on it being weird that they have a spare Navigator.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I get that. I don't get how they can survive if the Navigator isn't at the helm 24/7 for months of journey, and the man has to sleep, eat, and defecate no?
    There is, IIRC, explicitly a Navigator power in the RPG that suppresses or removes Fatigue. If we take that as quasi-canon, it's part of a Navigator's training/abilities to go extremely long periods of time without rest or sustenance, which would make sense as a feature to build into their geonome.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    There is, IIRC, explicitly a Navigator power in the RPG that suppresses or removes Fatigue. If we take that as quasi-canon, it's part of a Navigator's training/abilities to go extremely long periods of time without rest or sustenance, which would make sense as a feature to build into their geonome.
    I suppose. I also saw some fanon theories about a Navigator Throne that sustain them for extensive periods of time.

    Would probably explain why they are cranky all the time.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    A few of the early Horus Heresy stories mentioned a Navigator being killed and replaced in places far, far away for Terra. So presumably, Explorator fleets carried a few spares - as in, one or two per fleet, which could be dozens of ships.

    Octavia was similarly a 'spare' Navigator for the Covenant of Blood in the Night Lords trilogy. That one was kind of wonky, due to why Talos recruited her and the fact that he's heretic Astartes, but otherwise no one remarks on it being weird that they have a spare Navigator.
    Adding on to this, you would also get situations where a ship is wrecked in some way. One of the top priorities would be to get the Navigator off the ship. So a ship might end up with two Navigators by dint of having salvaged one, and hadn't yet made it back to a port where the Navigator could transfer off the ship.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    I don't get how they can survive if the Navigator isn't at the helm 24/7 for months of journey
    Because they drop out of Warp when the Navigator isn't on deck?
    They survive by dropping out of the Warp. You can't live in the Warp - even with a Gellar Field on.

    and the man has to sleep, eat, and defecate no?
    ...You're thinking too much.
    GW fluff buckles when you do that.

    As I said...Navigators are one of the things that don't make sense about 40K. Surface-level descriptions of their importance only.

    - Navigators are required for Warp travel - especially over long distances.
    - Navigators are exceptionally rare, as they're basically only born on Terra, to only a select few Houses, and complications of inbreeding makes them even rarer.
    - There are thousands and thousands of ships in the Imperium.
    - Warp travel is the lifeblood of the Imperium.
    - There are thousands and thousands of Navigators.
    - ...Wait...Stop. What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Adding on to this, you would also get situations where a ship is wrecked in some way...
    As long as its not wrecked by enemy fire. Navigators are mandated to kill themselves if they think they might be captured.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...You're thinking too much.
    GW fluff buckles when you do that.
    But isnt that how the Navigator on the ship the Night Lords captured lived? perpetually in a pool of its own filth, absorbing nutrients tossed into it, to the point it became blind and grew flippers?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Given that the Imperium is far from efficient and navigators are distributed by the heads of their families I wouldn't be surprised if there were a handful of ships with more than one navigator as a result of nepotism, politics, senility or bribery. This is the same setting where the accountants have been known to have civil wars over how to file paperwork after all.

    If we take the RPGs as canon then a ship can have multiple navigators in Rogue Trader, but only one is the formal navigator of the ship. I don't have my copy of the book handy to check if they had a suggested job title for additional navigators the way they did for Arch-Militants.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    But isnt that how the Navigator on the ship the Night Lords captured lived? perpetually in a pool of its own filth, absorbing nutrients tossed into it, to the point it became blind and grew flippers?
    The flippers were probably a combination of chaos exposure and the natural navigator proclivity for mutating rather than anything to do with the pool. The pool itself is basically just a gross version of the life support systems used to keep titan princeps and similar alive in glass tubes while also serving as the focusing/isolating medium for the navigator as I recall. Pretty sure they had to stick Octavia in the pool for her to direct the ship, so it must have had something to do with flying the thing.
    Last edited by Grim Portent; 2019-12-29 at 12:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    But isnt that how the Navigator on the ship the Night Lords captured lived? perpetually in a pool of its own filth, absorbing nutrients tossed into it, to the point it became blind and grew flippers?
    Yeah. But that's not supposed to happen. Theoretically, you're supposed to look after your Navigator, so that he doesn't tell his House and his House doesn't reneg their contract. Theoretically, if you push your Navigator to the point to their refusal to Navigate, you're SooL.

    How far can you push your Navigator? They're people, too. And usually whiny babies, 'cause they're also well aware of their importance.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    As long as its not wrecked by enemy fire. Navigators are mandated to kill themselves if they think they might be captured.
    If you are part of a fleet, your ship can be shot down, but you can still be confident about winning the battle.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    As I said...Navigators are one of the things that don't make sense about 40K. Surface-level descriptions of their importance only.

    - Navigators are required for Warp travel - especially over long distances.
    - Navigators are exceptionally rare, as they're basically only born on Terra, to only a select few Houses, and complications of inbreeding makes them even rarer.
    - There are thousands and thousands of ships in the Imperium.
    - Warp travel is the lifeblood of the Imperium.
    - There are thousands and thousands of Navigators.
    - ...Wait...Stop. What?
    I honestly dont see the issue here
    By accounts of the empire's size, something counted in the thousands is exceptionally rare.
    Likely more rare than Astartes. Certainly more rare than psykers.
    And just barely above the point where they can substain a long term population, though a controlled breeding program.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    I also don't see how 'One Navigator per ship' is practical, but I don't know where that idea came from. After all, unless it's an exceedingly small ship you're going to have more than one Astropath. Same for a Navigator. Though admittedly, where I could see a ship having dozens of Astropath trainee's, I could instead see a ship having 2-3 navigators.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    They survive by dropping out of the Warp. You can't live in the Warp - even with a Gellar Field on.
    You can do it, but things get... weird.

    Lion El'Johnson does it in Unremembered Empire. He has his flagship spend 3 months in the warp none-stop - stationary, just warp-locked - because he knows that the Night Haunter is aboard, and that's the only way that the Dark Angels can guarantee that he stays aboard while being hunted.

    By that point, the crew are pretty freaked out and even the Astartes are starting to wonder what long term exposure is going to do to them, even through the Gellar field. Enough that all of the blast-shields on the ship's windows are ordered to be kept permanently closed, because just looking out into the warp is going to drive people to murder/suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Given that the Imperium is far from efficient and navigators are distributed by the heads of their families I wouldn't be surprised if there were a handful of ships with more than one navigator as a result of nepotism, politics, senility or bribery. This is the same setting where the accountants have been known to have civil wars over how to file paperwork after all.

    If we take the RPGs as canon then a ship can have multiple navigators in Rogue Trader, but only one is the formal navigator of the ship. I don't have my copy of the book handy to check if they had a suggested job title for additional navigators the way they did for Arch-Militants.
    Presumably, the official Navigator will be charged with training apprentices when feasible. While these underlings are *a* Navigator in terms of their genetics and lineage, they are not *the* Navigator of the ship, as there's only room for one. In that way, it would make sense - on long-haul journeys, "the Navigator" is just whoever is sitting in the interface throne while the Warp is being traversed, so there's nothing that would stop a particularly important ship from having several Navigators working in shifts to ensure constant guidance. It's only poorer/less urgent ships that only have one Navigator, and they have to stop to rest every so often.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-12-29 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    I also don't see how 'One Navigator per ship' is practical, but I don't know where that idea came from. After all, unless it's an exceedingly small ship you're going to have more than one Astropath. Same for a Navigator. Though admittedly, where I could see a ship having dozens of Astropath trainee's, I could instead see a ship having 2-3 navigators.
    Hmm.. well as such it does make sense sense as a general rule.
    A lot of things the empire does is risky or dumb. Like sending their soldiers out to fight alien stargods with flashlights and a uplifting primer.
    And giving everyone a backup navigator is likely a very good idea. I mean they are screwed if he gets a stroke mid-flight.
    But likely that would only happen in the rare cases where the entire ship and its crew is a lot more valuable than a single navigator.
    Something i suspect is pretty rare. And likely reserved for capital ships (or whatever the biggest class is).

    For astropaths i think its a bit different. Because those the empire can "manufacture" from surplus psykers.
    So those are likely in much shorter supply.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    You can probably still have "extremely rare" and still have more Navigators than Astartes. Think of an average of 1.8 navigators per ship, where the larger, richer and more important vessels having a Master Navigator and apprentices. Most ships have 2 people with the gene, probably a breeding couple, acting as mentor/apprentice relationship.

    The occasional **** head Navigators are sent alone on certain poorer ships.

    Technically, if you estimate there being 5 billion ships in the Imperium, that's barely 9 billion navigators. It's still a fraction of a beep of a percentage of the Imperium population.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    I definitely find it hard to imagine that it's standard operating procedure for well-equipped ships to fly with only one navigator. Having a single human point of failure is probably an acceptable way to work if you genuinely can't afford otherwise, but I can't see a Battle Barge or Ark Mechanicus being taken out of action because deckhand #49,324 used some dodgy meat and gave their only way out of the warp indigestion.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    I agree with LeSwordfish if only because I've played a lot of Dark Heresy, and if there's one thing I know about Navigators it's that they're virtually guaranteed to get a daemon in their brain that's trying to tear itself out within 30 minutes of the start of the session.

    I also learned that they contain approximately 90 gallons of blood which is kept under a constant pressure of about 700 PSI, to make sure that it is all sprayed evenly about their quarters when the hapless Acolytes are sent to investigate where the funny noises are coming from.

    I'm hardly even being facecious; the ratio of survival-to-violent-deaths suffered by Navigators when they appear in the novels is roughly 1:1, and that's not including the ones whose ship crashes into a planet or is blown up entirely.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-12-29 at 04:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    You can probably still have "extremely rare" and still have more Navigators than Astartes...
    I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that Navigators are 'extremely rare', but they always seem to have exactly enough as they need. Which is at odds with what they're trying to present.

    Think of an average of 1.8 navigators per ship, where the larger, richer and more important vessels having a Master Navigator and apprentices. Most ships have 2 people with the gene, probably a breeding couple, acting as mentor/apprentice relationship.
    Again, that's what would make sense. But it's not what's written. Navigators are in the position that they're in, because they're rare, and therefore valuable, and the Imperium essentially dies without them. The fact that Uther Abraxes (coolest name ever, BTW) is willing to execute his Navigator and thus, strand himself in the Void indefinitely, proves his resolve to his cause.
    The Navigator is refusing to Navigate.
    Abraxes is willing to cite dereliction, execute the Navigator, and strand himself.
    Who blinks?
    If Abraxes had spares, or random passing ships had extras to spare, executing your Navigator wouldn't be such a big deal.

    If each ship had two or three Navigators each. The Night Lords books wouldn't be nearly the way they are.

    The occasional **** head Navigators are sent alone on certain poorer ships.
    All of them are ****heads. Which stems from their power and privilege, which is directly tied to their (supposed) rarity.

    Technically, if you estimate there being 5 billion ships in the Imperium, that's barely 9 billion navigators. It's still a fraction of a beep of a percentage of the Imperium population.
    As I said, it isn't their rarity to the population that is the problem. It's supposed to be their rarity compared to the number of ships the Imperium has. However, as I mentioned up top, the Imperium always seems to have exactly as many as they need. Undercutting the narrative that they're trying to push. There's cake, eat it.

    The only book that really tackles their rarity, is the aforementioned Night Lords books, and the only reason the entire story works, is because Octavia doesn't kill herself like she's supposed to.
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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-12-30 at 01:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    If each ship had two or three Navigators each. The Night Lords books wouldn't be nearly the way they are.
    Yeah but the Night Lords books are all about scarce resources. They don't have a paucity of navigators because that's a universal rule, they have them because the only resources they have are what they can take, and in the case of navigators that means what they can take and then persuade to work for them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that Navigators are 'extremely rare', but they always seem to have exactly enough as they need. Which is at odds with what they're trying to present.
    Is it established in lore that the Imperium actually HAS lots of ships around which donít have Navigators, or is it just that it COULD do? Because the perfectly rational reason for why there are always the number of Navigators they need is because they donít bother building more ships than they can reliably supply with Navigators! Over tens of thousands of years the rate of ship production has adjusted to approximately meet the rate of Navigator production!

    In any case, this is just another example of GW being tied to fluff that woefully misunderstands the scale of their setting, see Space Marines having Chapters of 1000.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    From the Navis Primer for the Rogue Trader RPG, page 7:

    Also numbered among the crew of any significantly sized voidship is a cabal of Navigators, the senior among them known as a Navigator Primaris or Warp Guide. So exacting is the process of steering a vessel through the Warp for any length of time, especially beyond the relatively well known, if still perilous, routes within Imperial space, that no single individual is equal to the task. Instead, the Warp Guide undertakes the most dangerous portions of the voyage, such as the transition to and from the Warp as well as the navigation of particularly tumultuous regions within the Sea of Souls.
    The same splatbook talks about how each sector of the Imperium has its own local Navigator houses, and that despite the fact they maintain embassies in the Navigators' Quarter on Terra they usually make their real home in the sector where they do the most business.
    Last edited by LCP; 2019-12-30 at 06:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Yeah. I still dont see the navigator issue. Or at least whats been trying to be presented as an issue.
    Navigators are rare. But they are also the bottleneck of warp travel.
    So they are going to be present whenever there are warp travel going on.

    Is it established in lore that the Imperium actually HAS lots of ships around which donít have Navigators, or is it just that it COULD do? Because the perfectly rational reason for why there are always the number of Navigators they need is because they donít bother building more ships than they can reliably supply with Navigators! Over tens of thousands of years the rate of ship production has adjusted to approximately meet the rate of Navigator production!
    But i think Avaris is in to something here.
    This is honestly rather logical. Likely the Navigator production is moderatly predictable.
    While the ship production is is easy to control. Or no. This is 40k. If they really wanted a ton of navigator babies they could likely get them.
    Issue is more i think that the navigator houses has a stranglehold on warp travel. And so they control their numbers,
    to ensure that they are only -just- enough to barely cover the needs of the Imperium.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    From the Navis Primer for the Rogue Trader RPG, page 7:
    That's me learned.
    Seems almost everything notable on Navigators comes out of Rogue Trader. Which I guess makes Navigators less stupid, like the RPG did to almost everything.

    So, I take it all back:
    Ships do have more than one Navigator. Old fluff is dead.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-12-30 at 09:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Yeah but the Night Lords books are all about scarce resources. They don't have a paucity of navigators because that's a universal rule, they have them because the only resources they have are what they can take, and in the case of navigators that means what they can take and then persuade to work for them.
    Exactly. Even then when they get so massively lucky as to capture a ship with a Navigator onboard if Octavia had done as she was supposed to they'd have ended up with a three eyed corpse and right back where they started
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's me learned.
    Seems almost everything notable on Navigators comes out of Rogue Trader. Which I guess makes Navigators less stupid, like the RPG did to almost everything.

    So, I take it all back:
    Ships do have more than one Navigator. Old fluff is dead.
    I mean, it's not really a bad feel. The Navigators are akin to Captain-Pilots during the Age of Exploration. They make the judgement call about how to navigate. They are the ones who take control during emergencies, and they try to plot courses that minimize risks.

    However, they don't necessarily need to be at the helm from moment to moment. So suddenly, 1 navigator per ship makes more sense.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Something occurred to me as I was re-reading the gene-seed implantation chart.

    Do space marine chapters ever retain fully-implanted battle brothers in the scout company? For example, they're old enough to get the implants and they get good reviews from their superiors, but there's no opening in a power-armored company (I guess they can drive a Rhino or something?).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    If nothing else, I'm reasonably certain the scout sergeants are experienced veterans, because they want people to show the neophytes the ropes.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Do space marine chapters ever retain fully-implanted battle brothers in the scout company?
    All the time. Some of them (e.g; Telion, Naaman) are even permanent fixtures.
    The 10th Company, is also still a Company, so it has a Captain and Command Staff, as well (In Sons of Dorn, Captain Taelos is assigned to 10th as part of a punishment / his atonement)

    For example, they're old enough to get the implants and they get good reviews from their superiors, but there's no opening in a power-armored company
    That's not why you don't leave the Scout Company.
    As already pointed out, the reason you stay in the 10th, or you're assigned to the 10th, is because of your expertise, and specifically, your ability to pass said expertise on.
    Almost all Sergeants are fully-fledged Marines.

    Remember in 8th Ed., the 'Scout Company' also can include pretty much any Marine that wears Phobos Armour, not just 'Scouts', despite the name.
    Conversely, any Company can include Marines that wear Phobos Armour, because once you've been trained in stealth, it's not like you forget.
    That is, every Primaris Marine both is and isn't a Vanguard Marine at any given time. Shouldn't Vanguard be in the 10th Company?
    Well, yes...But also no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    I canít remember which edition it was that introduced the linear progression track for space marines. Scout to Devastator to Assault to Tactical.

    I never really liked it, since (a) to my knowledge the crunch never supported the idea of Tactical Marines being super experienced dudes who could do anything and (b) it seemed to imply that regardless of how good you were at Assaulting or Devastating, your ultimate fate was to be kicked upstairs into a Tactical Squad.

    Maybe iím misinterpreting it though?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    I canít remember which edition it was that introduced the linear progression track for space marines. Scout to Devastator to Assault to Tactical.
    It was Ward (i.e; 5th Ed.).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It was Ward (i.e; 5th Ed.).
    To be fair, Space Wolves had a linear track before that - Blood Claw, Grey Hunter, Long Fang.
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