Psionics Reloaded-the Psion and Psychic Warrior; ALL DISCIPLINES NOW COMPLETE (PEACH)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Empath 3: Number of Psi Points seems right, Psionic Investigation is a cool ribbon. It appears I only have one 'cantrip' without any choice there, i'm not sure if choice of Focus is supposed to be a substitute here? I picked Mantle of Awe, Psychic Assault and Psionic Restoration so two of those are passive +1s to skills.
This guy seems like he'd fit right in as a substitute Goolock, although his AC sucks.

Focuses are supposed to be cantrip replacements, yeah-- when I played a Mystic, having both Talents and Focuses as at-will options felt redundant, so I thought I'd lean into the unique option. Though reading through your impressions, and looking back, I think I might have undersold them... since I'm basing things off the Warlock model, they should probably be more like Invocations in terms of power.

Sidenote: Wow, subclasses get big selections of their own disciplines. In most cases I could take just subclass disciplines. Thats nice, although I worry about too much getting locked away or causing unnecessary analysis paralysis.

I found the sheer open-ness of the original Mystic to be one of the class' big issues. It gave up pretty much any attempt at flavor, left the various subclasses feeling too similar, and-- by letting you pick and choose the best Disciplines-- ironically pushed you towards the same handful of options.

Seer 7: Only one additional Discipline from level 3 to here feels pretty sucky but given that each one is 5 powers plus a passive I suppose that's OK.

Yeah... it's only one new Discipline choice, but in practice you're effectively getting another nine spells known between level 3 and 7.

I chose Aura Sight, Precognition, Psychic Inquisition and Third Eye, which means I ran into the classic blunder of choosing no actual combat options. Oops. Even if i'm basically a really sturdy commoner in a fight I really do feel like nothing can be hidden from me, despite still only getting +1 to whatever relevant skill thanks to Focus. I'd much rather never be surprised or see everyone's health.

The skill-boosting Focuses were definitely overtuned on the original Mystic, but I might have gone a bit too far in the other direction here-- especially since I'm now realizing they have to take up some of the burden from Invocations as well. Might be best to rewrite everything that's not a flat-out new ability like Precognition is...

Something I've noticed at this point: keeping track of Psi limit is a little annoying. I suppose no more a nuisance than spell levels, but you could probably rework it with power costs to go by Prof Bonus instead.

Hmm... I guess I could move to (half level, round up) and adjust power costs, but right now the progression is designed to follow the Spell Points variant rules, and I'm leery of messing with that too much.

Wu Jen 12: Mastery of Fire, Air and Light/Darkness, Intellect Fortress and Psionic Restoration. Elemental mastery is a bit odd and less fun than expected as except for racial resistances (these are all humans) it's reliant on certain disciplines to be useful. Psionic Body and High Psionics are good features, and by this point we have full access to all powers in the disciplines. The half prof to skill is still meh, though Intellect Fortress granting the same to mental saves is nice. Wu Jen really fixes the attack power problem with its choose-your-damage-type attack and getting all four elemental cantrips is a lovely ribbon. However seeing as i'm setting out to make a Pyromancer here i'm not really pumping out that much fire damage, though my suite of riders and utilities as well as short rest recovery make it feel like i'm not completely falling behind.

I think you might be underestimating Elemental Mastery-- even if you don't have a resistance the second part of the power is pretty useful. Raw damage is... yeah, it's behind a Sorcerer or something, but I was building the Psion more towards the versatility side of things. You wind up with a lot of effective spells known.

...which also sort of brings me to another decision. The Mystic was a very smite-y caster, with most of the Disciplines giving you a "1dx/pp" spell from the very start. I had an option to spend pp to boost your at-will damage in there for a long time, but I wound up taking it out because it felt too much like stepping on the Paladin's toes... and potentially too strong for a class that already gets a ton of versatility. But it sounds like you'd support bringing something like it back?

Personal thought: I'm not sold on determining casting stat by subclass. It forces you to put subclass at level 1, dilutes the identity of the class and I'm of the mind that only one actual class is necessary (preferably Wis based), as the rest can fit nicely into subclasses for other classes, which takes the burden off one class doing everything and allows you to properly integrate psionics as a system with broad access rather than a tacked-on special case.

Mmm... I could see dropping the casting stat variation, but given that I've currently got your subclass giving you your at-will attack option, it still needs to come at the very beginning.

Lurk 3: Proficient in the same saves as the Psion? Otherwise the chassis appears the same as any other warrior. Meditation is a great ribbon. 3 Psi points and a limit of 2 is awkward as there arent any Disciplines that feature a power with a cost of 1. Mind strike actually looks pretty fun and functional
Your playtester is right, a level 3 psywar has extremely limited resources even for a short rest recharge. Compare to a 3rd level fighter or monk.

To be fair, we should be comparing to a Paladin or Ranger. The casting should roughly correlate, averaged over the full day*, so we're looking at Focuses vs (Divine Sense/Lay on Hands/Channel Divinity) and (Favored Enemy/Natural Explorer/Primeval Awareness/at-will subclass ability). The pp/psi limit mismatch is... definitely something I didn't look at enough, though. I should probably round pp up a bit; probably to around 2 max-augmented powers/short rest.

(*The problem in the playtest was exacerbated by my tendency to use short adventuring days; I usually wind up shifting short-rest classes to long-rest anyway)

Shifter 7: Still very anemic with the Psi points, although limit and number of disciplines feels about right. Change appearance is great fun, mimicing a warlocks at-will disguise invocations with natural weapons and armor included. Physical foci are also cool, thank goodness they don't compete with your regular focus. Weirdly worded change body but I think I get you're going for here. Some of your discipline powers rely on concentration, which seems like it would be a problem seeing as you want to be in melee to benefit from them and you're not proficient in the saves.

Oof, yeah. Con save proficiency instead of Wis for the PsyWar would be a good idea.

Another thing i've noticed: With both classes they basically revolve around the disciplines and Psi point expenditure. There are few ribbons or features that don't plug into powers, so you're mostly down to a cantrip equivalent and swapping around your focus (and by now i've established that half prof to a skill or two isn't interesting or impactful, so i'm discounting those). Even casters generally have things that aren't tied to their primary resource (spells/slots) like channel, inspiration, wildshape and rituals. Even sorcerers have a larger than average selection of cantrips, as maligned as they are.
Now fixing this i'm not so sure about, i'm just flagging a potential issue. My initial suggestion would be to reduce how many powers you pack into each discipline so that design space can be used elsewhere, such as more class and subclass features that operate independently of Psi points and on their own cooldowns. Maybe in conjunction with my above thought of changing psi limit to prof bonus and restructuring psi costs.

I think I might be better off powering up Focuses, so they're more significant, but... yeah, I see where you're coming from. I can't reduce the number of powers per discipline, not without leaving weird gaps in the effective spells known list, though... I really didn't like how some Disciplines originally gave you more or less spell-equivalents...

Warmind 12: Mental hammer is quite the relief! Mind and Body is a better Fighter Indomitable which is nice but again relies on precious Psi Points, speaking of which 12 is better for sure but still meagre considering everything that keys off of them. I cannot think of another warrior class that suffers this much when depleted of their primary resource. Sharing focus is fun, having an extra three to choose from and not getting to focus on two at a time until subclass capstone not so much. Perhaps go with the Shifter approach? The mantles are great fun while they last, really invokes the warlord feel. Do you have an actual warlord homebrew?

I can see that, yeah. Add the chain bonus onto whatever you're sharing...

I did a not-that-great Warlord base class as part of my low magic overhaul, who was basically a Bard that gave up casting in exchange for more inspiration dice. There's a much better warlord type in my Guide to Greatness as a Fighter subclass-- they get to project a buffing aura Cha/short rest, and use their bonus action to let allies shift around the battlefield.

That took longer than expected, hope this helps!

It very much did, thank you!

[Kane0]

To be fair, we should be comparing to a Paladin or Ranger. The casting should roughly correlate, averaged over the full day*, so we're looking at Focuses vs (Divine Sense/Lay on Hands/Channel Divinity) and (Favored Enemy/Natural Explorer/Primeval Awareness/at-will subclass ability). The pp/psi limit mismatch is... definitely something I didn't look at enough, though. I should probably round pp up a bit; probably to around 2 max-augmented powers/short rest.

(*The problem in the playtest was exacerbated by my tendency to use short adventuring days; I usually wind up shifting short-rest classes to long-rest anyway)

Yeah even comparing Pally they have LoH, Channel, Divine Sense, Auras that all mean a Paladin out of spell slots isn't dead in the water. PsyWar gets Fighting Style and Mental Hammer equal to Pally and their capstone, everything else is totally reliant on Psi Points. It's nice that the mechanics are centralised but there are no fallback options, no independent features that go by their own short/long rest, prof bonus or ability bonus recharges. That's part of the reason the chassis feels pretty barebones to me, it's got Psionics and the meditation ribbon which makes me feel like the same goal (not having one class with access to *everything*) can be achieved elsewhere (subclasses).

On Foci:
Makes sense that they are a stand-in for cantrips, but casters always have a few cantrips to choose from. Switching between them is nice but availability is very limited between the low number of disciplines and action cost to swap. Plus they're all passive bonuses and not active powers.
It might be best to take them out of Disciplines and put them in as Talents again. It will look a lot more transparent but the model works well, and you could have a mix of active and passive talents to make them appear more like invocations than cantrips.

On disciplines:
Yeah i'm happy they aren't just different varieties of smite. I think some of them should have 0 or 1 cost options.
Also, I didn't see a discipline that lets you make an Astral Construct, something I remember being a big deal for previous psionics implementations? Closest I saw was the Light/Shadow Wraith summon.

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If you have the time for the thought experiment:
- Psi limit based on Prof Bonus (2 to 6)
- Psi costs starting at 1 instead of 2
- Make the Psion solely Wis based
- Reintroduce Talents as at-will powers (subclasses can grant their own unique Talents alongside Disciplines)
- Retain Focus as part of some disciplines as passive options, scrapping the +X to Y ones
- Reduce number of options (including Focus) to 3 to allow for more disciplines known (kill your darlings and all that)
- Use some of those leftover powers for more disciplines as well as class and subclass features that don't rely on expending or recovering Psi Point

If you want to get really drastic it wouldn't be hard to scrap the PsyWar entirely in favor of subclasses for existing classes:
Barbarian: Shifter (two birds with one stone, there's been a call for a wildshaping barbarian for a while)
Fighter: Psychic Warrior (can go straight telekinetic/body powers or lean on the War Mind)
Monk: Contemplative/Mystic
Rogue: Lurk
Wizard: School of Psionics (just have to be careful with spell slots and PP)
Sorcerer: Wilder

This would spread out the Int/Wis/Cha mix for Psionics too.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's nice that the mechanics are centralised but there are no fallback options, no independent features that go by their own short/long rest, prof bonus or ability bonus recharges. That's part of the reason the chassis feels pretty barebones to me, it's got Psionics and the meditation ribbon which makes me feel like the same goal (not having one class with access to *everything*) can be achieved elsewhere (subclasses).

Mmm. Part of that is, admittedly, because most of the flavor winds up in the subclasses. I can definitely rewrite the core class abilities to be psi point independent, though.

On Foci:
Makes sense that they are a stand-in for cantrips, but casters always have a few cantrips to choose from. Switching between them is nice but availability is very limited between the low number of disciplines and action cost to swap. Plus they're all passive bonuses and not active powers.
It might be best to take them out of Disciplines and put them in as Talents again. It will look a lot more transparent but the model works well, and you could have a mix of active and passive talents to make them appear more like invocations than cantrips.

Ehh... I see what you're going for, but I like Focuses. They were my favorite part of playing a Mystic, and they're unique enough that they do a lot to make psionics feel different. But it sounds like currently they're not doing enough to fill the "what do I do when I'm not spending resources" role. A couple thoughts for addressing that...

• Hand out more Focuses-- maybe have each Discipline give two Focuses, or maybe have a list of generic Focuses and let Psionics pick a couple on top of the ones they get through Disciplines.
• Add an active ability to all Focuses-- ie, Mastery of Fire would give resistance to fire and an at-will fire blast, that sort of thing.
• Make Focuses stronger-- balance them more like Invocations than cantrips, scaling with level. (At the very least, I'll definitely boost the half-Proficiency ones)
• Throw out Focuses that provide purely numerical bonuses altogether in favor of stuff like Aura Sight's current Focus.

Also, I didn't see a discipline that lets you make an Astral Construct, something I remember being a big deal for previous psionics implementations? Closest I saw was the Light/Shadow Wraith summon.

The Wu Jen also get elemental summons, but fair point-- I was mostly going off the existing ones, but an Astral Construct one would be easy enough to add.

If you have the time for the thought experiment:
- Psi limit based on Prof Bonus (2 to 6)
- Psi costs starting at 1 instead of 2

Like I said, I'm hesitant to mess too much with the underlying math; there are enough moving parts in this 'brew without totally abandoning the existing "point-based casting" systems.

If you want to get really drastic it wouldn't be hard to scrap the PsyWar entirely in favor of subclasses for existing classes:
Barbarian: Shifter (two birds with one stone, there's been a call for a wildshaping barbarian for a while)
Fighter: Psychic Warrior (can go straight telekinetic/body powers or lean on the War Mind)
Monk: Contemplative/Mystic
Rogue: Lurk
Wizard: School of Psionics (just have to be careful with spell slots and PP)
Sorcerer: Wilder

I don't want to scrap the PsyWar-- there should be both a full and a half caster option for any new magic system, methinks-- but one-third caster subclasses are certainly doable. I actually have notes in the original document for some I never got around to finishing.

Spoiler

Show

It might also be worth doing 1/3 casters (Soulknife for the Fighter, Psibound Agent for the Rogue), with access to ~5 disciplines
• Soulknife (Wis): Iron Durability, Mastery of Force, Psionic Weapon
• Psiobound Agent (Cha): Aura Sight, Intellect Fortress, Psychic Inquisition, Psychic Phantoms, Telepathic Contact

The Monk could get one too (Psionic Fist?), though that'll get a bit finicky-- I'm definitely not going to be able to resist combining psi points and ki points.

[Kane0]

Ehh... I see what you're going for, but I like Focuses. They were my favorite part of playing a Mystic, and they're unique enough that they do a lot to make psionics feel different. But it sounds like currently they're not doing enough to fill the "what do I do when I'm not spending resources" role. A couple thoughts for addressing that...

• Hand out more Focuses-- maybe have each Discipline give two Focuses, or maybe have a list of generic Focuses and let Psionics pick a couple on top of the ones they get through Disciplines.
• Add an active ability to all Focuses-- ie, Mastery of Fire would give resistance to fire and an at-will fire blast, that sort of thing.
• Make Focuses stronger-- balance them more like Invocations than cantrips, scaling with level. (At the very least, I'll definitely boost the half-Proficiency ones)
• Throw out Focuses that provide purely numerical bonuses altogether in favor of stuff like Aura Sight's current Focus.

Like I said, I'm hesitant to mess too much with the underlying math; there are enough moving parts in this 'brew without totally abandoning the existing "point-based casting" systems.

Fair and reasonable. You probably won't have to do the first bullet point if you're doing the other three, and you wouldn't have to do the second for *every* discipline. The ones like 'can't be surprised' and 'ignore disadvantage' are plenty powerful enough, especially since they can be gained with just a dip.

Mind you you wouldn't be abandoning point based casting, more like recalibrating. I can understand if you don't want to do that though, it would be a lot of work. Maybe if I get a sufficient amount of cabin fever i'll do it myself haha.

[Kane0]

Sorry for double-post, but I just noticed something. Your Psi Points for the Psion appear to be almost exactly one third of expected spell points of that level, which is fine for a short rest fullcaster equivalent with the expected two SRs per LR, however you also have provided High Psionics as a Warlock Mystic Arcanum counterpart which put you ahead.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry for double-post, but I just noticed something. Your Psi Points for the Psion appear to be almost exactly one third of expected spell points of that level, which is fine for a short rest fullcaster equivalent with the expected two SRs per LR, however you also have provided High Psionics as a Warlock Mystic Arcanum counterpart which put you ahead.

Gah. You're right. I'll add that to the list...

I've started working on revisions more generally...

• I'm going to remove the break between "Disciplines" and "Psi Points" and give manifesting all at once
• The Psion will be purely Int-based, the PsyWar purely Wis-based, and both will get their subclasses at the usual level 2 or 3.
• I'm making Disciplines stronger and more interesting-- trying to make sure everything is giving you some sort of interesting trick or ability, that bonuses scale with level, that sort of thing.
• I'm giving the Psion a few more Focuses from a non-Discipline-associated list-- some generic, others unique to subclasses.
• I'm revising the PsyWar's core class abilities to not use psi points.

[Kane0]

Thinking of incorporating the psi die concept from the recent UA?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thinking of incorporating the psi die concept from the recent UA?

Now that I've actually read it... I don't know. I like the Mystic's setup, but the psi die (that's fun to say) concept is a pretty neat idea. And the die size is a surprisingly original way of limiting resources, though my gut says it needs some more tweaking.

Using psi dice to power spellcasting is... It's an interesting idea. Hmm... (the following is 100% pure stream of consciousness)

I think you'd have to grant multiple dice, and, say... to use a 3rd level spell equivalent, you'd have to roll 3 dice (or 5 dice, or whatever), and track their sizes separately... That might get unwieldy if you tracked it with anything but a pile of physical dice though... and I'm not sure how multiple dice would interact with the stuff already printed...

Or... have just the one psi die, roll it and need to get, say, a 3 or more to use a 3rd level spell equivalent? You might need a more generous version of Psi Replenishment; I have no idea of the math involved in how many uses you can expect to get from each die...

Or combine psi dice and psi points, have each discipline's Focus be a passive benefit and a new way to use your psi die... maybe with some ability to trade points for die size (and vice versa?)...

A psi die that can't vanish after hitting 1d4, maybe? With casting requiring a drop in size? Or freeze the size at 1, with casting requiring a roll of 2+ (or more for higher level stuff)? That would keep some weak at-will potential for when you run out of casting...you'd need a recovery mechanism though...

I dunno. It's an interesting idea, and it definitely feels different from spellcasting. I'll have to think. (And maybe do math...)

EDIT: I found someone else's math. Looks like you can expect to hold onto your psi die for a long time-- 30+ rolls on average if you start with a d6. That makes the "rolling to cast" thing pretty much a non-starter. Using it with Focuses should work fine, but even with guaranteed "cast a spell, drop 1+ die sizes," I'm not sure tying casting to the psi die is possible. Unless... maybe not just a die size drop, a reduction of the max size as well? Coupled with short-rest die recovery, for 2-5 spells per short rest...

[Kane0]

A mix of Psi Die and Power Points could be really fun. For example (also stream of thought):

Discarding the random raise and lower mechanic for now, lets say Psi die is a resource that scales with your level and cannot be completely expended. It power your focus but also gating what powers are accessible to you in your discipline such that the bigger powers need a bigger die size to use. Using certain powers could reduce your die size temporarily as a balancing point.

Power Points could be used to increase your die size again but could also be used to fuel powers beyond their base effect. Side effect of this being you won't need dozens of PP like Spell Points but more like class level amounts like Ki.

So putting that together Mastery of Fire's Gout of Flame power requires at least a d6 Psi Die to use and makes a field of fire that deals 4d6 damage (with a save) and lasts [Psi Die roll] rounds, with the option of burning PP for extra d6s of damage. After you use the power your Psi Die decreases one step, to a minimum of d4. If a mystic starts with a d6 Psi Die they can use this power twice before needing to use PP or some other class feature to increase the die size again.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A mix of Psi Die and Power Points could be really fun. For example (also stream of thought):

Discarding the random raise and lower mechanic for now, lets say Psi die is a resource that scales with your level and cannot be completely expended. It power your focus but also gating what powers are accessible to you in your discipline such that the bigger powers need a bigger die size to use. Using certain powers could reduce your die size temporarily as a balancing point.

Power Points could be used to increase your die size again but could also be used to fuel powers beyond their base effect. Side effect of this being you won't need dozens of PP like Spell Points but more like class level amounts like Ki.

So putting that together Mastery of Fire's Gout of Flame power requires at least a d6 Psi Die to use and makes a field of fire that deals 4d6 damage (with a save) and lasts [Psi Die roll] rounds, with the option of burning PP for extra d6s of damage. After you use the power your Psi Die decreases one step, to a minimum of d4. If a mystic starts with a d6 Psi Die they can use this power twice before needing to use PP or some other class feature to increase the die size again.

Hmm... d4/d6/d8/d10/d12 does match with the five spell-equivalent levels... and power points being more like Ki, used to recover dice or boost spell-like effect, does seem neat... I could see a mechanic like "when your psi die is X size or larger, spend 1pp to manifest the power." That would let you set a hard limit on how many powers you can manifest in a given span of time, while still letting you keep that nifty changing-die-size bit...

Except psi die start at a d6, don't they. Grmph. I guess I could call the fifth tier power something special and have it unlock at a different... no. Maybe better not to tie it to die size at all, that way you can keep the die progression in line with the established tier-based scaling...

Um... maybe...

• You get your psi die, following all the scaling/size-changing mechanics from the UA.
• You get psi points per short rest equal to half your Int modifier, round up.
• Using a power of the highest level available to you costs 1pp and reduces your current and maximum die size by 1, reset on a short rest. Using one of the next highest level costs 1pp and drops your current die size by 1; using anything lower is just 1pp.
• Psi points are used for the active half of Focuses, and to augment powers.

That... should leave you something like a Warlock? Potentially more slots, but also more incentive to use the lower-level ones?

EDIT: Ehh... maybe keep psi points largely intact for now, focus on just integrating psi dice into Focuses and class features.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've worked up an initial batch of Focus/Psi Die combos-- does this look like a promising direction, do you think?

Spoiler: New Focuses

Show

Note: "[p]" stands in for "roll your psi die and use that value." I got sick of typing it over and over

Intellect Fortress
While focused on this discipline, you gain a bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saves equal to one-half your Proficiency Bonus (rounded down).

After succeeding on an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma save, you may use a reaction to deal [p] psychic damage to the creature that caused you to make the saving throw.

At 5th level, you may roll a second psi die of equal size and add the results together, the only the first roll can affect the size of your psi die. You may add a third die at 11th level and a fourth at 17th level.

Mastery of Force
While focused on this discipline, you may cast the Mage Hand cantrip. You do not have to provide components, and the hand is invisible. At 5th level, and again at 11th and 17th level, the range extends by 60ft.

When commanding the hand to take an action, you may grant it an effective Strength score of 10+[p] until the end of your turn. This enables the hand to attempt combat maneuvers such as shoves.

Mastery of Light and Dark
While focused on this discipline, your eyes glow and dark smoke leaks from your nostrils. You either gain 60ft darkvision, or the range of your darkvision extends by 60ft. You may also choose to radiate bright light in a 20ft radius and dim light in an additional 20ft radius.

As an action, you can roll your psi die to dazzle a foe with bright light or shroud them in shadows. As an action, force one creature within 60 feet to make a Constitution save or be blinded until the end of their next turn.

Mind Hammer
When you are focused on this discipline, you may use your Intelligence score in place of Strength when attempting to violently shove or break objects.

As an action, you may force a creature within 60ft to make a Strength save or take force damage equal to [p] plus your Intelligence bonus.

At 5th level, you may roll a second psi die of equal size and add the results together, the only the first roll can affect the size of your psi die. You may add a third die at 11th level and a fourth at 17th level.

Psychic Restoration
While focused on this discipline, you may use your action to touch a dying creature and stabilize it. When healing creatures using abilities from this Discipline, excess healing is converted to temporary hit points. For example, if you use Mend Wounds on a creature missing eight hit points and roll twelve points of healing, they are restored to full health and gain four temporary hit points.

As an action, you may touch a creature and grant them temporary hit points equal to [p] plus your Intelligence modifier.

Psychic Assault
While focused on this discipline, your attacks ignore resistance to psychic damage.

Whenever you deal psychic damage, you may increase it by [p].

Psychic Disruption
While focused on this discipline, your lies pass without giving offense—while others can tell that you’re lying with a successful Insight check, they will brush it off and forget it rather than holding the lie against you.

When making a Deception check, you may increase your roll by [p].

Psychic Inquisition
While focused on this discipline, you can always tell when a creature is lying. You don’t automatically know the truth, and half-truths can still get past you.

When making an Insight check, you may increase your roll by [p].

Psionic Phantom
While focused on this discipline, you can maintain one visual illusion of up to 5 cubic feet without concentration. The object can move through simple patterns, but not react to outside stimulus. If you move more than 30ft away from the object, it vanishes. You can alter the illusion from round to round, provided you spend a bonus action each round to do so.

When creating your illusion, you may increase its size by 5*[p] cubic feet.

Telepathic Contact
While telepathically communicating with a creature, you can hear their replies. (Assuming the base class grants telepathy)

When communicating with a creature, you may use an action to deal them psychic damage equal to [p] plus your Intelligence bonus.

At 5th level, you may roll a second psi die of equal size and add the results together, the only the first roll can affect the size of your psi die. You may add a third die at 11th level and a fourth at 17th level.

[Kane0]

The ones i think work best (safest bets, if you will) are ‘when you roll [ability check / saving throw / damage type] add your Psi Die to the roll’. Not rolling psi die multiple times though, the rule should be ‘every time you choose to roll this it can change size’, adding exceptions would be counterproductive.

The ones I think are most interesting are the ones that determine range, magnitude or duration of effect based on psi die, such as mage hand with STR of [psi die] and blinding someone for rounds equal to [psi die].
These have to be built into the base power so it fits seamlessly though, rather than how that illusion one is set up like ‘you can do X’ then in another paragraph sits the sole line about psi die allowing you to make the illusion bigger. Its not an upcasting effect, its how the power works.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The idea behind the rolling the psi die multiple times is to match with cantrip scaling-- Mind Hammer is an (effectively) at-will attack, one potential option for a fallback offense. I thought it was a neat way to mesh the mechanics together... Would it work better as "2*[p], 3*[p], etc?" Or a more generic fixed-value "damage increases by 1d8 at level 5, 11,and 17?"

(I should also note for the moment that I'm planning on keeping the point-based casting the same, having been unable to think of any graceful-and-balanced way to combine that with psi dice. Other than maybe having casting drop your die size as a rate-limiting factor)

As for the effects being separated... right now I'm going through and trying to make sure that each Focus has an always-on passive ability and a die-based active ability. Merging them into a single block whenever possible is probably good, though.

EDIT: I've just about finished the structure of revisions, and am working on fleshing out language, altering subclasses, and filling in missing effects now:

• Focuses now give unique passive effects-- nothing numerical.
• Classes will start off with several Psi Talents, chosen from a larger list; each Discipline will also unlock an active Psi Talent. These'll cover "+psi die" to rolls, cantrip-type attacks*, and unique effects like Mastery of Force's augmented Mage Hand.
• Speaking of, damaging Psi Talents will no longer be of the form [p] + Int/Wis. Instead, they'll be dx + [p]. That way you get normal cantrip scaling, use the psi die, and the damage remains comparable.
• The Psion is going to be a purely Int-based caster, and Disciplines will no longer be gated by subclass (though each subclass will have a pair of unique Talents they can learn). The Wu Jen gets replaced by a telekinetically focused option. Overall, I'm trying to stick close to the Warlock in balance-- enough pp to get off a pair of max-power spells per short rest, and strong at-will options in the Focuses and Talents.
• The Wu Jen gets split off as its own Charisma-based casting class. They'll get all six Disciplines known from the start, Elemental Smite as a starting talent, and will generally be oriented more towards damage. Probably will be a long rest caster instead of short rest, but I'm still working on how I want to break up the subclasses (by element? Role?) but there will definitely be an option to play Aang.
• The PsyWar goes to pure Wis, and to long rest casting. They'll pick up Talents like the Psion does, and I'll split the core class features off to be based on their own resource pools.

*Which I'll maybe rewrite as "1d8 + [p] psychic damage," and just have normal cantrip scaling

[Kane0]

The idea behind the rolling the psi die multiple times is to match with cantrip scaling-- Mind Hammer is an (effectively) at-will attack, one potential option for a fallback offense. I thought it was a neat way to mesh the mechanics together... Would it work better as "2*[p], 3*[p], etc?" Or a more generic fixed-value "damage increases by 1d8 at level 5, 11,and 17?"

I would say [X] Psy Die, and stipulate that die size can only change once when (after) you roll multiple Psi Die (that is fun to say) at a time. So the format is similar to cantrips and doesn't bundle different dice sizes together all the time but has its own flair.

Classes will start off with several Psi Talents, chosen from a larger list; each Discipline will also unlock an active Psi Talent. These'll cover "+psi die" to rolls, cantrip-type attacks*, and unique effects like Mastery of Force's augmented Mage Hand.

Would it be cleaner just to have those Talents be separate from disciplines entirely? Disciplines already have a bunch of things going on within them.

The Psion is going to be a purely Int-based caster, and Disciplines will no longer be gated by subclass (though each subclass will have a pair of unique Talents they can learn). The Wu Jen gets replaced by a telekinetically focused option.

But I prefer some disciplines being subclass locked, so not every Mystic Psion can pick from the entire list (a major criticism of the UA incarnations making it too versatile).
I do like a Kinesis based replacement to compliment the Seer and Empath, those three always felt like the cornerstones of Psionics to me (Psychometabolism/Psychoportation/Metacreation) always felt like they were put in to better mimic spell schools rather than playing up mental powers).

The Wu Jen gets split off as its own Charisma-based casting class. They'll get all six Disciplines known from the start, Elemental Smite as a starting talent, and will generally be oriented more towards damage. Probably will be a long rest caster instead of short rest, but I'm still working on how I want to break up the subclasses (by element? Role?) but there will definitely be an option to play Aang.

Idea borne from madness: At some points I suppose Psionic subclasses will be on the table, and thematically the Wu Jen shares a lot with the Four Elements monk. Perhaps this is a great chance to kill two stones with one bird?

[Arkhios]

My 2 cp:

I would use the form Foci instead of Focuses as plural for Focus (note: both are accurate!). It's just that to me the form 'Foci' feels more formal, while the 'Focuses' feels a bit informal.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Huzzah! I've updated the Psion with all those changes Kane0 and I have been talking about. I also moved it to the Homebrewery, because I need to start shifting my stuff there if I'm going to put out Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque... Right now it's just the Psion with all its Disciplines, but more will come.

I would say [X] Psy Die, and stipulate that die size can only change once when (after) you roll multiple Psi Die (that is fun to say) at a time. So the format is similar to cantrips and doesn't bundle different dice sizes together all the time but has its own flair.

I'm not sure I quite follow what the distinction is?

Would it be cleaner just to have those Talents be separate from disciplines entirely? Disciplines already have a bunch of things going on within them.

Ehh... maybe? I kind of prefer it this way if possible; it makes it possible to have more interactions between Focuses and Talents and discipline powers, like how Mastery of Force's Talent augments the hand its Focus lets you manifest.

But I prefer some disciplines being subclass locked, so not every Mystic Psion can pick from the entire list (a major criticism of the UA incarnations making it too versatile).
I do like a Kinesis based replacement to compliment the Seer and Empath, those three always felt like the cornerstones of Psionics to me (Psychometabolism/Psychoportation/Metacreation) always felt like they were put in to better mimic spell schools rather than playing up mental powers).

I wound up with a compromise-- two unique disciplines/subclass, instead of five.

Idea borne from madness: At some points I suppose Psionic subclasses will be on the table, and thematically the Wu Jen shares a lot with the Four Elements monk. Perhaps this is a great chance to kill two stones with one bird?

I mean, my plan right now is a d8 full caster with four elemental subclasses-- fire for blasting, water for healing, earth for being a tanky gish... and air for being a kung-fu gish.

Though you're not wrong; a psionic Monk subclass in the vein of the Soulknife would be a great opportunity to take another swing at Four Elements...

My 2 cp:

I would use the form Foci instead of Focuses as plural for Focus (note: both are accurate!). It's just that to me the form 'Foci' feels more formal, while the 'Focuses' feels a bit informal.

... damn it, you're right. I wish I'd noticed your comment before I spent two hours formatting things for Homebrewery :/

[Kane0]

Reading through it, and I like what I see! Some finer points

- Would you still consider keeping Psi Die at a minimum of a d4, so you can't lose access to your Talents entirely? Just change 'spend PP to get Die back' to 'spend PP to increase Die one step'
- Seer's Predictive combat adds [p] to AC, which is a PITA at the table. Not a mechanical problem though
- Seer's Clairvoyance isn't in 5' increments, [p] adds individual feet. Is that intended? Seems less great than say, Kineticist's Bullish Mind
- Mental Catapult do words good
- Even if Psychic Aptitude is limited to a single ability check when you pick it its still stacks with expertise, guidance and other talents that boost skill rolls like Aura Sight's Talent. That could get ridiculous fast.
- Celerity's Focus still adds Prof and not [p] ?
- Mastery of Force's talent only works when you have its Focus active
- Mastery of Light/Dark's Talent doesn't actually use [p] for anything, you just roll it to no effect. Perhaps you meant it to affect range or duration?
- Psychic Inquisition's Talent is the same as Aura Sight's
- Psychic Phantoms uses [p] for two things at once, do you roll for each separately?
- I didn't notice Telepathy is one-way until I read Telepathic Contact
- Third Eye's Talent affects two skills, one of them being Perception ('the best skill'). Might need a slight nerf.
- Nomadic Mind's Focus might need to be toned back to be less of a DM's nightmare, maybe just creatures you've telepathically contacted lately (ie party members) ?
- Isn't Precognition's Talent basically the same as the Seer's Prescient Insight?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Reading through it, and I like what I see! Some finer points

- Would you still consider keeping Psi Die at a minimum of a d4, so you can't lose access to your Talents entirely? Just change 'spend PP to get Die back' to 'spend PP to increase Die one step'

Hmm... yeah, I think it's already close enough to at-will that works.

- Seer's Predictive combat adds [p] to AC, which is a PITA at the table. Not a mechanical problem though

I'll tweak it a bit so you roll once when you first use the power.

- Seer's Clairvoyance isn't in 5' increments, [p] adds individual feet. Is that intended? Seems less great than say, Kineticist's Bullish Mind

It was at first, but it seemed too good that way. Being able to peek around corners and through walls is pretty strong even if it's just a few feet of distance.

- Mental Catapult do words good

I good write.

- Even if Psychic Aptitude is limited to a single ability check when you pick it its still stacks with expertise, guidance and other talents that boost skill rolls like Aura Sight's Talent. That could get ridiculous fast.

I mean, it is. But the Soulknife gets to do that with everything they're proficient in, and Wild Talent does the same for an entire Ability score; I think this is reasonable.

- Celerity's Focus still adds Prof and not [p] ?

I wanted to avoid using psi dice outside of Talents. I also couldn't come up with anything good for Celerity, though-- I went back and forth between a +Ini focus/+speed talent and a +speed focus/+Ini focus like ten times. If you've got any suggestions, I'd love to replace it with something more interesting.

- Mastery of Force's talent only works when you have its Focus active

That's true, but I think it's okay? I could add something like "+p to force damage," though?

- Mastery of Light/Dark's Talent doesn't actually use [p] for anything, you just roll it to no effect. Perhaps you meant it to affect range or duration?

Good catch. I'll make it range.

- Psychic Inquisition's Talent is the same as Aura Sight's

...butts.

- Psychic Phantoms uses [p] for two things at once, do you roll for each separately?

Once... I'll add a clarifying line to the general [p] rules.

- I didn't notice Telepathy is one-way until I read Telepathic Contact

It usually is-- I copied the one from the original Mystic, which is nearly word-for-word what the Great Old One gives you.

- Third Eye's Talent affects two skills, one of them being Perception ('the best skill'). Might need a slight nerf.

Fair.

- Nomadic Mind's Focus might need to be toned back to be less of a DM's nightmare, maybe just creatures you've telepathically contacted lately (ie party members) ?

Yeah, that's fair enough.

- Isn't Precognition's Talent basically the same as the Seer's Prescient Insight?

...yes. Will fix.

(Also, I fixed the psi points to fully match a Warlock's spell points).

[Kane0]

I wanted to avoid using psi dice outside of Talents. I also couldn't come up with anything good for Celerity, though-- I went back and forth between a +Ini focus/+speed talent and a +speed focus/+Ini focus like ten times. If you've got any suggestions, I'd love to replace it with something more interesting.

I think its alright as is, just swap Prof to Init to something like using Int in place of Dex for Init.

That's true, but I think it's okay? I could add something like "+p to force damage," though?

Maybe the Talent could be the mage hand with Str of [p] (which comes with its own carry capacity) and the Focus be ignoring Force damage resistance.

Also, I fixed the psi points to fully match a Warlock's spell points

Could probably smooth out the progression too, since powers don't need to work in chunks like spell slots do.

It's looking really well polished though, good job!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Psychic Warrior stuff is up!

I think its alright as is, just swap Prof to Init to something like using Int in place of Dex for Init.

Done.

Maybe the Talent could be the mage hand with Str of [p] (which comes with its own carry capacity) and the Focus be ignoring Force damage resistance.

Mage hand as the talent makes a lot more sense, yeah. I don't think anything has force resistance. Mage Armor would work, though.

Could probably smooth out the progression too, since powers don't need to work in chunks like spell slots do.

Done.

It's looking really well polished though, good job!

Thanks!

[Theoboldi]

Is it just me or are parts of text cut off in the homebrewery version? This might just be on my end since I don't use the homebrewery much, but there are several class feature that I can't read right now.

[Arkhios]

Is it just me or are parts of text cut off in the homebrewery version? This might just be on my end since I don't use the homebrewery much, but there are several class feature that I can't read right now.

Homebrewery has a known issue of not working properly on certain browsers. Chrome is the best browser for viewing the website; I believe this is because it's been designed using chrome's internal features.

[Theoboldi]

Homebrewery has a known issue of not working properly on certain browsers. Chrome is the best browser for viewing the website; I believe this is because it's been designed using chrome's internal features.

Sadly, viewing it via chrome on my phone isn't working either. Are you able to see everything?

At least the source code is viewable, so I can read through that. It's just too bad it lacks the proper formatting.

[Arkhios]

Sadly, viewing it via chrome on my phone isn't working either. Are you able to see everything?

At least the source code is viewable, so I can read through that. It's just too bad it lacks the proper formatting.

On Computer using chrome has no glaring issues for my part, except with the Psychic Warrior, on page 2, and Disciplines & Talents, on page 11, where the text at the end of the second column cuts and goes off-page. This is something that happens, when there aren't enough space for lines at the end of the page, and (fortunately?) has nothing to do with your browser per sé. It's easily fixed by the owner of the document.

[paddyfool]

Re the Psychic Warrior, the intensive focus for Unending Resolution seems weird. So if you're in a solo game it's no better than the standard physical focus, but if you're in a party of 7 you generate 7 times as many temp hp?

[Grod_The_Giant]

On Computer using chrome has no glaring issues for my part, except with the Psychic Warrior, on page 2, and Disciplines & Talents, on page 11, where the text at the end of the second column cuts and goes off-page. This is something that happens, when there aren't enough space for lines at the end of the page, and (fortunately?) has nothing to do with your browser per sé. It's easily fixed by the owner of the document.

I fixed the PsyWar, but I can't tell where the other error is-- what Discipline is affected?

Re the Psychic Warrior, the intensive focus for Unending Resolution seems weird. So if you're in a solo game it's no better than the standard physical focus, but if you're in a party of 7 you generate 7 times as many temp hp?

The number of allies doesn't really matter, because temporary hit points don't stack and you're not going to be taking damage that turn. The useful part is that you're getting that small buffer refilled every time an enemy starts their turn and you could potentially get hit again.

[Theoboldi]

The features I see are cut off are the Psion's Psionic Surge, Retroactive Preparation, as well as the discipline Precognition.

Edit: So, I've read through the new versions of your classes, and I wanted to leave some feedback. These are in no specific order, just my thoughts as they occur to me. Take them with a grain of salt, as they come from the perspective of someone who absolutely loathes the psionic die as a concept.


In General

- Both classes are mechanically very busy. You have both talents and disciplines, the psi points that you track to cast your disciplines, a psionic focus for each discipline that you know, and the psi die that gets used for several abilities. This is not necessarily bad, just figured it's worth pointing out.

- The tables look kind of messed up. I assume the Psychic Warrior is not supposed to have twice as many psi points as the Psion, and that the Psychic Warrior's psi limit isn't supposed to shrink at 17th level.

- I'm very happy to see that you decided to make the psi die unlimited, since it's functionally that way already and this way you avoid players getting screwed out of their class features by RNG. Very good. Also really like that the psion can spend psi points to deliberately enlarge it, giving them some control over the mechanic.

Psion

- The flavor text of the Empath is oddly setting-specific compared to the other, more generic subclasses.

- The new Kineticist subclass is cool! It really does capture that mind over matter archetype that you get with a lot of psionic characters. Very well done. That said....

- Telekinetic Routine: Why roll the psi die for the duration? Nobody tracks time closely enough for it to become relevant whether you need to use another action to restart the routine every 10 minutes or every 20 minutes. It's not like it'll run out in the middle of combat if it lasts 10 minutes at the least. This is a problem I have with a few of the Talents, where it feels like they roll the psi die for the sake of including the psi die, with no actual reason for doing so.

Also, the wording on what to do about ability checks is very unclear. Do you use the result of the psi die in place of the d20 ability check? Do you use it to determine a virtual ability score which then rolls the ability check? Not sure how that is supposed to function.

- Bullish Mind: This is very strong battlefield control for what is essentially a cantrip. Even at first level, it's gonna push an enemy 40 or 30 feet on average. Sure, it's single target and allows for a save, but even so it has the potential to completely change an encounter all on it's own! I'd at least half the distance that it moves people.

- Crushing Mind: This is too much. It's essentially permanent Quickened Spell. Give it limited uses per rest or give it a point cost, at least.

- Predictive Combat: This is an actually really neat version of True Strike. Still not sure if I'd ever use it, but the flavor is on point and I can actually see it being useful.

- Retroactive Preparation: Abilities like these are the coolest. Always love them.

Psychic Warrior

- Meditation: What is the reasoning behind giving a class that has traditionally been combat-focused, already is good in combat while also having many useful psychic powers, and can get plenty of bonuses to skill checks from its focuses a free-floating version of Expertise? I'm all for martials having stuff to do out of combat, but this seems gratuitous.

- Mind and Body: This ability seems deceptively strong, combining both the Monk's Diamond Soul and the Paladin's Aura, at least on the Psychic Warrior himself. I wouldn't say it's overpowered, though. Might need some playtesting.

- The Lurk gets two more expertises? Just because it's a stealth subclass doesn't mean you have to step on the rogue's toes that hard!

Really though, at most I would give Stealth for free as a normal proficiency since it is so central to the subclass and it's not on the Psychic Warrior's regular skill list. They already can take plenty of disciplines that give them advantages at stealth that a mundane character could never have.

- Change Appearance: So, unless my character has seen a lizardfolk at some point in his life, they can't give themselves a natural weapon and the natural armor? I'd rephrase it to let the player add those freely onto any form, to be honest. Most of them time this will only be used for the cool factor of being a badass shapeshifter anyways.

- Mental Chain: I'd add a line indicating that other characters who share your focus also use your psi die. Just for clarity's sake.

- I find it kind of funny how two of the Psychic Warrior's subclasses let you hold multiple focuses, yet the psion is unable to do that ever. It gives him something unique, though, which is neat.

Disciplines

- Hooray for a return of the displays! Do Talents have them too, though?

- Mental Catapult: How far away can the object that you're throwing be? If you toss a magic weapon at someone, can you toss it again from where it lies on the next round?

- Delusion: If you end up rolling a lower number of creatures than you'd like to affect, can you decide not to affect anyone and just roll again until you roll a sufficient number? This also kinda ties in with the above question of whether Talents have displays that would prevent something like this.

Despite the questions though, I quite like this as a flavorful psionic alternative to Minor Image.

- Mute Display: If Talents have displays, does this work on them too? Is it automatic in that case?

- Feed the Mind: Why make this so fiddly by rolling the psi die? Who cares whether you can last five hours or six without food and water when you can just reactivate this at will, and you only have to eat daily anyways? There's absolutely no need to roll on this. Honestly, I'd just make it a passive, permanent ability if you want to keep it as a talent.

- Brute Force: Why does this focus increase Insight rather than Athletics?

- Very happy you brought back all the corrosive metabolism stuff. One of the best parts of playing a psychic warrior in 3.5 was turning into a horrible eldritch abomination at high levels that would make the artists on Akira blush. All that's missing is an equivalent to Form of Doom. But hey, that's what reflavoring is for.

- Currently, none of the disciplines are marked as exclusive to any one subclass. As such, if I want to take a discipline I first have to check the relevant subclasses on the Psion and the Psychic Warrior.

- Nomadic Mind: The talent is a bit weird. In play, what would stop me from just using that talent time and time again to try for additional knowledge checks until I have exhausted the minds of everyone around me? I know that the GM could simply decide that another roll is not possible on a given topic, but that seems like a very meta resolution to something a player might feel he could reasonably do in character.


I haven't read all of the disciplines fully, but that's my notes on all I've seen so far. Overall, despite the addition of a personal pet peeve mechanic, this is really well-crafted. It captures the psionic thematics really well, and in a way that's for the most part balanced. There's a reason this is still my go-to psionics homebrew for 5th edition.

[Arkhios]

Currently, I'm seeing following parts as cut-off to the side:

Psion:
- A line, maybe two, under Retroactive Preparation cuts off to the side at the end.

Psychic Warrior:
- Psionic Disciplines headline is there, but the whole text underneath is cut off to the side.
- Dire Mind Strike, same as above

Disciplines & Talents:
- Precognition, under That Didn’t Happen, roughly half of the text cuts off to the side.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Update: The Wu Jen is up... mostly. Still need to add Subclasses and High Psionics abilities. All their Talents and Disciplines are up, though, including new "Mastery of Earth" and "Mastery of Wood" options to replace "Mastery of Wood and Earth." I might need to do a second fire one too, so that each element has two related options... Also a specific list of Talents for the Psychic Warrior-- one for each ability score, including three new options (Iron Heart, Light Step, and Psychic Leap).

Theoboldi-- Thank you for the detailed feedback! I'll respond point-by-point soon, but I'm really glad you like it .

[Theoboldi]

Theoboldi-- Thank you for the detailed feedback! I'll respond point-by-point soon, but I'm really glad you like it .

I figured I should give something back for all the work you do on this project. Besides, the better balanced this is the more likely I can get my GM to accept it.

Speaking of which, some notes on the Wu Jen! Who I am still not sure why he is a psionic class now, but WotC made that decision for some reason!

- The Discipline List for Wu Jen lists their talents, while their Talent List lists the Talents of the Psion.

- Good decision to give all the elemental cantrips for free. They are way too niche to just give one.

- Mastery of Elements: I'm not too broken up that you have to give up one element, but it does mean that I can never become the Avatar.

- Elemental Perfection and Elemental Immunity synergize nicely with the exclusive disciplines of the Wu Jen, though they make some racial options far more attractive than normally. The more resistances the race has now, the better.

- I see that the name of the capstone is different on the table as opposed to the text, so I assume you'll change that around still. Didn't see that initially, so I was about to suggest a Paladin-like approach where each subclass has a specific capstone because copying the Psion's would be a bit boring, but it seems you already have a better idea.

- Light Step: It's niche, but too awesome not to like.

- Elemental Burst: This seems to be strictly better than Elemental Strike, since it is an AOE with the same damage and probably better chance to hit in most situations. Sure, it comes with the risk of hitting your allies, but it's such a small radius that you can easily work around that.

- Iron Heart: This seems way too good for a talent. You get twice as many chances to save against any effect, plus further saving throw against effects that would not otherwise offer one. Why would any Psychic Warrior take anything else? The action cost is big, but at almost any occasion where you'd want to use this talent, your only options will be to do so or waste your turn.

- Cleansing Touch: This also seems strong for a talent, but not quite as strong as Iron Heart. Though it's less egregious since this requires you to use up your turn to help someone else.


That's all my further thoughts for now. The disciplines look to be alright for the most part, though I am really no expert on spellcaster balance.