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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    It is a well known fact that Conjuration is an excellent school while Evocation is mediocre at best. In fact, it is quite likely that the spellcasting community in OoTS knows these facts as well, as they should. Which begs the question: Why didnít Aarindarius, skilled teacher of Vaarsuvius and likely an epic level spellcaster, warn Vaarsuvius against specializing in Evocation and banning Conjuration?! These choices are some of the worst choices possible for a spellcaster and Aarindarius would have known that, so they had a responsibility to prevent Vaarsuvius from making a mistake that will stick with them forever! I understand why The Giant made it that way, but what is the justification In-Universe?

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    I think I remember V complaining that their choices made more sense before the world was upgraded to 3.5 back in #0001.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Aarindarius, skilled teacher of Vaarsuvius and likely an epic level spellcaster
    [citation needed]


    As Fyraltari said, V is a victim of edition changes moving teleport from transmutation to conjuration.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Yeah, it probably chose the best school at the time but was owned by forces outside its control. Given the personality this is likely.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Do we have any reason to assume Aarindarius cares more about optimization than most people in the OotSverse, who generally don't? Other than the typical projecting of optimization standards on every spellcaster?
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-03-23 at 06:27 AM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Aarindarius is an evocation specialist and V was apprenticed to them as a small child. She probably didn't really get a choice in specialty because she was apprenticed to an evoker before she understood magic. And the edition change thing explains why conjuration was barred. Necromancy was likely taken as a barred school in part due to being considered icky but that's just speculation.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Even taking into account the movement of spells from Transmutation to Conjuration, that doesnít change the fact that Conjuration is still one of the most excellent schools a Wizard can have. And if Aarindarius was an Evoker(which is unlikely), then they would have found themselves to be somewhat lacking in performance compared to those who specialize in Conjuration. At the very least, they could have told V not to ban Conjuration, due to the versatility of the school! A mentor would want to prevent their students from making the mistakes they did, not repeat them.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Even taking into account the movement of spells from Transmutation to Conjuration, that doesnít change the fact that Conjuration is still one of the most excellent schools a Wizard can have. And if Aarindarius was an Evoker(which is unlikely), then they would have found themselves to be somewhat lacking in performance compared to those who specialize in Conjuration. At the very least, they could have told V not to ban Conjuration, due to the versatility of the school! A mentor would want to prevent their students from making the mistakes they did, not repeat them.
    Once again, what are you basing any of this on? How do you know how Aarindarius instructed Vaarsuvius? How do you know his priorities were even slightly in line with character optimization?
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-03-23 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Even taking into account the movement of spells from Transmutation to Conjuration, that doesnít change the fact that Conjuration is still one of the most excellent schools a Wizard can have. And if Aarindarius was an Evoker(which is unlikely), then they would have found themselves to be somewhat lacking in performance compared to those who specialize in Conjuration. At the very least, they could have told V not to ban Conjuration, due to the versatility of the school! A mentor would want to prevent their students from making the mistakes they did, not repeat them.
    On the other hand, I've known quite a few teachers that tell their students that there is only one right way of doing something, whether it objectively is best or not.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Aarindarius is stated to be an Evoker in On the Origin of PCs, IIRC. And V started with them when she was a child. That's the most likely reason why she chose Evocation.

    As for why conjuration was banned, who knows.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    If we had to talk optimization, I've seen plenty of people argue that Evocation is actually an underrated school, as well.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Even if Aarindarius had a higher opinion of Evocation than they should have, they wouldnít be so idiotic as to not have Conjuration spells on hand. And if Aarindarius is a half-decent mentor, then they would have explained the pros and cons of each school to V, as well as showed which spells were essential for a wizard to have, most of which would have been in Conjuration anyways! And why wouldnít a wizard with high intelligence be mindful of optimization?

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    Even if Aarindarius had a higher opinion of Evocation than they should have, they wouldnít be so idiotic as to not have Conjuration spells on hand. And if Aarindarius is a half-decent mentor, then they would have explained the pros and cons of each school to V, as well as showed which spells were essential for a wizard to have, most of which would have been in Conjuration anyways! And why wouldnít a wizard with high intelligence be mindful of optimization?
    I feel this is relevant:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This is player thinking, focusing on utility in an average adventure and not to the whole of Malack's life.

    Remember that V used to be the kind of person who thinks that there's no problem an explosion cannot dsolve. V didn't choose V's spell list to be optimum but to be what V thought was the only thing necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    And why wouldnít a wizard with high intelligence be mindful of optimization?
    Because being a wizard or having a high intelligence score doesn't mean always making the correct, rational decision. "Intelligence" in D&D or any other game is a gameplay abstraction, not anything that exists in real life. I feel that between Vaarsuvius, Roy, Eugene, Redcloak and Tarquin, the comic has made it abundantly clear by now.

    That, of course, is assuming that obeying D&D standards of optimization is the correct, rational decision, which we can't and shouldn't assume. OotS is a story, not a game.
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-03-24 at 04:41 AM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I feel this is relevant:


    Remember that V used to be the kind of person who thinks that there's no problem an explosion cannot dsolve. V didn't choose V's spell list to be optimum but to be what V thought was the only thing necessary.
    If V wanted to create explosions, then they could have summoned creatures that could create explosions for them. To purposely limit oneself in the very thing one would want to do is beyond stupid. The only way that Evocation would be an effective school would be to create spells better than the ones already in the class.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    If V wanted to create explosions, then they could have summoned creatures that could create explosions for them.
    But then V wouldn't be creating explosions, they'd be summoning creatures that could create explosions.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Yes, Evocation is a poor school and Conjuration is stupidly versatile. It's been a well-known fact for some time now. Even so, Vaarsuvius is consistently the Order's most powerful member. So what are you arguing for, exactly? That Aarindarius should have explained to V in detail why they were making a poor choice, only for V to go through with it anyway? That would be a spectacular waste of space in the book.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Sometimes, people just take the job they want to do, not the one that pays best or has the highest prestige. Why would that be different for people in Order of the Stick?
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    It's admittedly speculation, but I always assumed that Vaarsuvius had the same barred schools as Aarindarius. Which is to say, Aarindarius taught V, including passing on their own limitations. V's parents just apprenticed him to "that Wizard friend of ours," rather than scouring Elven lands for the most optimized caster.

    Yeah, V does say that they chose Conjuration as a barred school, but it still seems plausible that they did so because they didn't think working with multiple instructors was a good strategy. V definitely seems to be of the mindset that it's better to be excellent at one thing than very good at several things.

    Now, maybe Aarindarius should have suggested V study with someone else, but they didn't. Maybe they suffered from the kind of myopia that seems to widely afflict Wizards in this setting: they all have a tendency to assume that their field is The Best and look down on people who made "inferior" class and build decisions. And while we see this more in terms of Wizards looking down on non-Wizards, I think a milder version applies between specialties as well.

    TL;DR: the simplest explanation would be that V took the exact same specialization and barred schools as his mentor without really thinking about it.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    With a large enough number of wizards, statistically speaking there will be some number of individuals who bar conjuration as a school, if we assume the percentage is non-zero. Another population of wizards will believe optimization is not important, again assuming non-zero. Another percentage will see conjuration, perhaps inaccurately, as sub-optimal. Thus, V just happens to be one of those individuals that falls into one or more of those groups, and so possibly does Aarindarius.

    It is possible both V and A see conjuration, sans teleportation based on V's comments, as a weak, uninteresting, dull, dangerous, nonintellectual, too reliant on strength of others (i.e. conjured beings) as opposed to one's own strength, or (whatever other disparaging adjective or rational you want) school.

    Not everyone who plays D&D builds an optimal character, thus I would say it is fair to assume not every character in Oots makes there choices based on optimization either. Also optimized for what? Utility? Combat? Search and Rescue? Advising? Ruling? Entertainment (I bet illusionist make great performers)? Being the strongest on your own with no help from conjured beings because you are above needing the help of others? Pick a reason or perhaps you can think of one you like better.

    Barring that your only option is its a plot contrivance so that V can't teleport so as to not ruin certain aspects of the story (i.e. race against bad guys, struggle of the journey, etc.). That is until or if the Giant provides a reason (which will probably also be questioned).

    Personally, I like the idea that V sees summoning help as beneath relying on their own inherent arcane might (the soul splice being extenuating circumstances to deal with the dragon).

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Aarindarius .... As for why conjuration was banned, who knows.
    Weariness from cleaning up all of the poop from summoned animals?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-03-24 at 10:44 AM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsOnly View Post
    It is a well known fact that Conjuration is an excellent school while Evocation is mediocre at best. In fact, it is quite likely that the spellcasting community in OoTS knows these facts as well, as they should. Which begs the question: Why didnít Aarindarius, skilled teacher of Vaarsuvius and likely an epic level spellcaster, warn Vaarsuvius against specializing in Evocation and banning Conjuration?! These choices are some of the worst choices possible for a spellcaster and Aarindarius would have known that, so they had a responsibility to prevent Vaarsuvius from making a mistake that will stick with them forever! I understand why The Giant made it that way, but what is the justification In-Universe?
    You know, you're absolutely right. Aarindarius should have helped Vaarsuvius make informed decisions regarding banned schools and specialization. And V clearly idolized Aarin, which should make V ever more pliable to Aarin's advice.

    From this, we can safely theorize that Aarin also has Conjuration as a banned school.

    And also V believes that Aarin can teleport to help with the ABD because V believes, whether rightly or wrongly, that Aarin has a 3rd edition version of Teleport houseruled in, before that objection is made.

    ETA: dangit, Grey Watcher!
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-24 at 01:54 PM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Weariness from cleaning up all of the poop from summoned animals?
    Headcanon accepted.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    It's admittedly speculation, but I always assumed that Vaarsuvius had the same barred schools as Aarindarius.
    Possible but that would make it more unlikely for Aarindarius to be able to show up and deal with the Ancient Black Dragon in the likely unworkable alternative plan - and so more likely that Vaarsuvius would have picked up on that the fiends were playing fast and loose with the truth.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Possible but that would make it more unlikely for Aarindarius to be able to show up and deal with the Ancient Black Dragon in the likely unworkable alternative plan - and so more likely that Vaarsuvius would have picked up on that the fiends were playing fast and loose with the truth.
    If only some super good looking dragon secretly already covered that scenario.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If only some super good looking dragon secretly already covered that scenario.
    Yeah, unfortunately, we just had you.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Possible but that would make it more unlikely for Aarindarius to be able to show up and deal with the Ancient Black Dragon in the likely unworkable alternative plan - and so more likely that Vaarsuvius would have picked up on that the fiends were playing fast and loose with the truth.
    In all seriousness, who's to say A would teleport in? Maybe A lives within flying distance of Ivyleaf (plausible, if V has been doing their apprenticeship while also courting, marrying, and adopting kids with Inky). All the fiends say is "intercede." No mention of how Aarindarius would get there.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    It could be that the Evoker mindset lends itself to a focus on the caster personally being the one doing the blasting; V was pretty mad for a second when she had to use the dominated kobold and Z mocked her for it. Aarindarius could've very well passed down the mindset that real powerful wizards blast their opponents personally and that hiding behind summons is weak. This attitude doesn't even seem to be uncommon, it came up in the exchange between Redcloak and Thanh as well.

    Though I like the cleaning up poop theory.

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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately, we just had you.
    Hardly my fault y'all cheaped out on the dragon package.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    In all seriousness, who's to say A would teleport in? Maybe A lives within flying distance of Ivyleaf (plausible, if V has been doing their apprenticeship while also courting, marrying, and adopting kids with Inky). All the fiends say is "intercede." No mention of how Aarindarius would get there.
    Also a good theory, especially of V expects the dragon to be long-winded. And given how long she toyed with V, that's definitely possible.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-03-24 at 05:33 PM.
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    Default Re: How come Aarindarius didnít warn Vaarsuvius against hir specialization choices?

    Another thing to consider is V's ego at the time. We're witnessing V changing now, but previously V wanted to achieve total ultimate arcane power they believed that as an Evoker, they would be that power, not someone who summons Outsiders or others to do his bidding, but unto themselves a font of pure destructive energy! Of course, the main thrust of the Black Dragon Arc was to show just how futile that search was.
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