OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Edward15]

What? I made the Deus ex Mechane joke!

Well, I'm sorry, but I joined and posted to the thread a while after you made that joke, so I didn't see it. Can you direct me to it?

[diremage]

So let me get this straight: all things being equal, you think a human is better at driving a vehicle?

I think humans and computers fail in different ways, and a computer is much MUCH better at detecting a human who fails and is about to crash and die, than a human is at detecting a computer that fails and is about to crash and die.

Collision avoidance systems are great, crash detection systems are awesome, power steering is a good thing, but to maximize survivability the normal state needs to put the human in control, with automated systems available should the human fail.

My ideal car would have a big red lever right next to the e-brake labeled "EMERGENCY MANUAL OVERRIDE" that turned off all the computers in the car and made it drive like something out of the 70's.

Also weren't you guys jumping all over me last thread for saying that Durkon had a Deus Ex Machina and was turning into Chuck Norris? But having the Mechane appear out of nowhere would be totally fine?

[Grey Watcher]

Seriously, nobody is interested in my theory about the hammer hitting the Mechane?

Definitely possible, though we've already seen that the Mechane casts a shadow sufficient to save a vampire from burning to death, so I don't know if crashing the Mechane would actually accomplish much, given that the vampires can hide in the shadow of it rather than the shadow of the ceiling.

That said, it could happen. Not sure how the barriers feel about non-dwarves being brought in against their will via gravity or other forces.

[Edward15]

Definitely possible, though we've already seen that the Mechane casts a shadow sufficient to save a vampire from burning to death, so I don't know if crashing the Mechane would actually accomplish much, given that the vampires can hide in the shadow of it rather than the shadow of the ceiling.

That said, it could happen. Not sure how the barriers feel about non-dwarves being brought in against their will via gravity or other forces.

Oh, you guys are getting the wrong idea entirely! I'm not saying that hitting the Mechane is Durkon's intent. I agree that Durkon's plan is to use the hammer to bust the roof to allow sunlight in, but my theory is that his hammer accidentally strikes the Mechane before it descends. Then, after the Order is finished with this whole 'Vote-to-destroy-the-world/vampire' situation, they'll return to find the Mechane has crashed and been destroyed, leaving them unable to use it to get to the North Pole!

Now does everyone understand what I'm getting at?!

[Dion]

I joined and posted to the thread a while after you made that joke, so I didn't see it

Ive told it like three times now, without reaction. That makes no sense, because it’s a really funny joke! I’m sure I just need to try again.

my theory is that his hammer accidentally strikes the Mechane before it descends. !

Ultimately we’re still following D&D game mechanics.

Which means there’s a 5% chance of hitting the Mechane if Durkon remembers that it’s floating around up there (either on a natural 1 or 20, depending on Durkon’s intent).

But Durkon hasn’t been on the Mechane for almost 200 strips; he’s probably forgotten about it.

But having the Mechane appear out of nowhere would be totally fine?

Edward literally just joined the board today. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t part of the conversation you’re referring to, so I don’t believe it’s fair to complain that he’s being inconsistent.

[Peelee]

The Mechane wouldn't appear out of nowhere; they said they could hover for two weeks waiting for the Order.

[jwhouk]

As for the self-driving question: ask Elaine Herzberg for her opinion.

Oh wait, you can't. Never mind.

---

So - the Mechane isn't anywhere near where the council meeting is located IIRC, so that'd be out.

However - Gontor* is probably going to villain gloat just as the hammer returns - and it hits him, knocking him out.

And causing the dominated council members to "come to" and vote "Aw HAIL NO!"

[Squire Doodad]

Oh, you guys are getting the wrong idea entirely! I'm not saying that hitting the Mechane is Durkon's intent. I agree that Durkon's plan is to use the hammer to bust the roof to allow sunlight in, but my theory is that his hammer accidentally strikes the Mechane before it descends. Then, after the Order is finished with this whole 'Vote-to-destroy-the-world/vampire' situation, they'll return to find the Mechane has crashed and been destroyed, leaving them unable to use it to get to the North Pole!

Now does everyone understand what I'm getting at?!

I get what you are saying, but it sounds like something that wouldn't actually further the plot in any way- it'd get a good "Oh [bleep]" moment, and it could come crashing down and open up ALL the sunlight, but it wouldn't actually do anything. It wouldn't even play a viable Deus Ex Machina.

While what you are saying is something that...well...could happen, I don't see Rich writing the story like that. Needless plot twist for the sake of making things worse for the heroes instead of transporting everyone to the final destination.

[Edward15]

I get what you are saying, but it sounds like something that wouldn't actually further the plot in any way- it'd get a good "Oh [bleep]" moment, and it could come crashing down and open up ALL the sunlight, but it wouldn't actually do anything. It wouldn't even play a viable Deus Ex Machina.

While what you are saying is something that...well...could happen, I don't see Rich writing the story like that. Needless plot twist for the sake of making things worse for the heroes instead of transporting everyone to the final destination.

First off, I didn't say the Mechane would fall into the council chamber. My theory is that the Order (and audience) wouldn't even find out about it until all is said and done and they're ready to head to Kraggor's Tomb.

Second, plot twists that make things worst for the heroes is what makes good stories! Look at the Draketooth-Familicide twist!

[Schroeswald]

They have specific plans for their time, though, even if we don't know what it is. This, meanwhile, is not something they had any way of seeing the Order getting involved in.

I'm sure they're aware it's happening, but in a "let's hurry up and get back to the good stuff" way not "well, guess we have to use one of our goes here" way.

This book is almost over, and V and the rest of the Order are basically on the sidelines now. Actually taking V away here would just seem very out of place.

They obviously have a plan, and I doubt they need to take V out in this battle, but I also doubt that Rich will have the next cash-in all that close to the final battle, meaning V will be taken out soon.

My main point is that the IFCC's plan either has to be off the rails or they don't know exactly when they'll take V out, unless if you think their specific plan said "when V discovers familicide killed the Draketooths they'll obviously run off into a pit, taking them away from the group. When they wake up Qarr, Sabine or someone will chase them into the passageways in the pyramid and under the gate. The rest of the Order will make it to the gate and if decide to destroy it and V decides its a bad idea Cedrik will cash in his time.", which IMO seems built on a lot of hard to predict circumstances, they aren't crazy manipulators, just smart archfiends with a plan.

[Squire Doodad]

First off, I didn't say the Mechane would fall into the council chamber. My theory is that the Order (and audience) wouldn't even find out about it until all is said and done and they're ready to head to Kraggor's Tomb.

Second, plot twists that make things worst for the heroes is what makes good stories! Look at the Draketooth-Familicide twist!

Lemme get you a 50 inch thick book on why just because something is correct in one case it isn't true in all cases.

Familicide was used to thicken the plot and improve things, by allowing the party to circumvent having to deal with honestly was more or less a paranoid cult as well as making V realize the extent of their actions, thus triggering their redemption arc in earnest.

In this case, what you are suggesting strands the party with no way north aside from a Deux ex Machina: the magic sphereamajig is out, the Mechane is out, and once you go far enough north you pretty much need an airship or teleportation. From an almost strictly Doylist view this has no affect on the party except for demoralizing them, and offers no opportunity for character growth aside from "someone dies, everyone mourns", which would be tasteless and pointless to occur right now. Not to mention the story arc is focused on Durkon; time spent on someone dying (which takes several pages for the aftermath) along with the realization that they are stranded all takes up pages that conceivably should be used on the relevant Durkon, Sigidi, and Hilgya subarcs.

It is possible, but I don't see any value in it that isn't better spent on cleaning up loose ends.

Bottom line is, it would do little but worsen the scenario. To say nothing of the cheapness of using a quick "Gotcha! Everyone's screwed over!" that detracts from Rich's typically great writing style with carefully aimed timing.

[Peelee]

First off, I didn't say the Mechane would fall into the council chamber. My theory is that the Order (and audience) wouldn't even find out about it until all is said and done and they're ready to head to Kraggor's Tomb.

Second, plot twists that make things worst for the heroes is what makes good stories! Look at the Draketooth-Familicide twist!

I think it's totally possible, but I'm not sure it will happen. The Mechane could have been written out at the end of this book; they agreed to stay and wait for the Order, but they didn't have to. They could have taken off; after all, they got paid for it already and now they're a stones throw from far merchant blimp trading routes. It's an ideal time to be a sky pirate.

My track record on guessing how things will turn out is abysmal, of course, so that gives your theory a good chance of being right.

[brian 333]

The Mechane always arrives in the nick of time, so I don't see it arriving now, when things are less desperate than they have been in a while. Though I could see a crash of the Mechane followed by the arrival of Julio on the Mechane II.

In any event, I think Durkon has this. It won't be him directly, though. He's going to win through the actions of his extended family.

The power of networking is that one person can fail but the group will catch his slack. Sigdi may be the one to score, but it will be Durkon's victory.

The same applies to carputers. The more they network the safer they will be. And they can be designed so that they cannot be reprogrammed.

Option 1: make the program a hardware feature instead of software. With the program built in rather than downloaded, nobody can hack it.

Option 2: make the computer so it will only accept updates via a physical link. Everybody wants convenience, but there is nothing convenient about being hacked.

I'd combine both options, so that core functions are hard-coded and 'features' are programmable.

[Peelee]

The Mechane always arrives in the nick of time, so I don't see it arriving now, when things are less desperate than they have been in a while.

They never left.

[brian 333]

They never left.

I know. My point is, this doesn't feel like a desperate moment that the arrival of the Mechane can fix.

[Squire Doodad]

I know. My point is, this doesn't feel like a desperate moment that the arrival of the Mechane can fix.

It's not even a desperate moment. It's a "the heroes save the day" moment. Nothing desperate is actually happening aside from "oh no, Durkon is stoned for the next half hour".

[Worldsong]

Gotta agree that the Mechane being struck out of the sky would be a rather random plot development which would seemingly only exist for the sake of making things worse for the protagonists.

While it is true that a good adventure story includes some real tension by providing challenges and hurdles for the heroes to overcome, the good writer also knows that those challenges and hurdles must not feel random, contrived or excessive. At least, that's what I imagine any good writer could agree on, that obstacles must fit within the scenario and provide the right amount of tension without feeling like you're just kicking the heroes whenever they try to stand up.

Unless you're writing a story where randomness or excessive misfortune are explicitly part of the theme.

Having the Mechane get wrecked by Durkon's hammer would feel like nothing more than "Oh by the way here's some bad luck because screw you protagonists."

Especially since it's not even like the OotS is having it easy. I think that by this point this is the longest book of the series, and it's about the OotS (mostly Durkon) preventing the entire world being destroyed by Hel and her minions, and literally the only reason they didn't already fail at that was because Durkon pulled off the most clutch... Persuasion Check? Greg failed his Will Save or whatever. The point is that the story has been filled with lots of tension for a long time now, and I can't agree with the idea that more tension is needed to the point that we'll randomly wreck the only form of transportation currently available to the heroes just to make things harder for them.

And as someone else has already pointed out, if the Mechane is out then you'd practically need to introduce a Deus Ex Machina to compensate for it, and if you have to compensate for a hurdle by providing a Deux Ex Machina to solve it you've gone overboard with how many obstacles you want to throw in front of the heroes.

[Rrmcklin]

They obviously have a plan, and I doubt they need to take V out in this battle, but I also doubt that Rich will have the next cash-in all that close to the final battle, meaning V will be taken out soon.

My main point is that the IFCC's plan either has to be off the rails or they don't know exactly when they'll take V out, unless if you think their specific plan said "when V discovers familicide killed the Draketooths they'll obviously run off into a pit, taking them away from the group. When they wake up Qarr, Sabine or someone will chase them into the passageways in the pyramid and under the gate. The rest of the Order will make it to the gate and if decide to destroy it and V decides its a bad idea Cedrik will cash in his time.", which IMO seems built on a lot of hard to predict circumstances, they aren't crazy manipulators, just smart archfiends with a plan.

I'm just going to point out that that Mr. Burlew has already said the next book will be the last one, even if it has to be huge. I find it more likely he'll just put two time outs (because that's the number left) in one book where its actually germane to the overall plot, than stick on in at the very end of a book that has nothing to do with the actual plot it was created for just because.

[happycrow]

So, seriously, a prediction: my many happy returns joke was based on actual mechanics. The hammer is going to return, and Durkstone is in no condition to catch it.

I think that hammer's going to turn the conference chamber walls and ceiling into Swiss Cheese, rather than actually collapsing it.

[Squire Doodad]

Gotta agree that the Mechane being struck out of the sky would be a rather random plot development which would seemingly only exist for the sake of making things worse for the protagonists.

While it is true that a good adventure story includes some real tension by providing challenges and hurdles for the heroes to overcome, the good writer also knows that those challenges and hurdles must not feel random, contrived or excessive. At least, that's what I imagine any good writer could agree on, that obstacles must fit within the scenario and provide the right amount of tension without feeling like you're just kicking the heroes whenever they try to stand up.

Unless you're writing a story where randomness or excessive misfortune are explicitly part of the theme.

Having the Mechane get wrecked by Durkon's hammer would feel like nothing more than "Oh by the way here's some bad luck because screw you protagonists."

Especially since it's not even like the OotS is having it easy. I think that by this point this is the longest book of the series, and it's about the OotS (mostly Durkon) preventing the entire world being destroyed by Hel and her minions, and literally the only reason they didn't already fail at that was because Durkon pulled off the most clutch... Persuasion Check? Greg failed his Will Save or whatever. The point is that the story has been filled with lots of tension for a long time now, and I can't agree with the idea that more tension is needed to the point that we'll randomly wreck the only form of transportation currently available to the heroes just to make things harder for them.

And as someone else has already pointed out, if the Mechane is out then you'd practically need to introduce a Deus Ex Machina to compensate for it, and if you have to compensate for a hurdle by providing a Deux Ex Machina to solve it you've gone overboard with how many obstacles you want to throw in front of the heroes.

That's better than how I could put it.

So, seriously, a prediction: my many happy returns joke was based on actual mechanics. The hammer is going to return, and Durkstone is in no condition to catch it.

I think that hammer's going to turn the conference chamber walls and ceiling into Swiss Cheese, rather than actually collapsing it.

Honestly I imagine its going to be a "Durkon moved slightly to the left" resulting in the hammer landing right next to him. Or he might actually catch it in his stone hands. Returning weapons dropped off by Good gods tend to not be very good at self-wounding.

[Worldsong]

So, seriously, a prediction: my many happy returns joke was based on actual mechanics. The hammer is going to return, and Durkstone is in no condition to catch it.

I think that hammer's going to turn the conference chamber walls and ceiling into Swiss Cheese, rather than actually collapsing it.

The reasoning being that with Durkon not being able to catch it the hammer is just going to keep flying in large ovals?

It would certainly be amusing to watch, and an interesting way of abusing the meeting hall's own defences.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Being unable to drive very well myself, I look forward to the day when self-driving cars are a regularly seen, mundane, run-of-the-mill accommodation for people who have need of them, in addition to being safe, and no more expensive than a regular car.

I know that's a lot to ask, but driving is terrifying and I hate being in control of something that can go so wrong...

Anyways, that's probably not going to happen within my lifetime, so I guess I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

[Worldsong]

Being unable to drive very well myself, I look forward to the day when self-driving cars are a regularly seen, mundane, run-of-the-mill accommodation for people who have need of them, in addition to being safe, and no more expensive than a regular car.

I know that's a lot to ask, but driving is terrifying and I hate being in control of something that can go so wrong...

Anyways, that's probably not going to happen within my lifetime, so I guess I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

I don't even own a car. I use bikes and public transport.

Actually wouldn't it be easier to make public transport self-driving? They're much more regulated.

[Squire Doodad]

Being unable to drive very well myself, I look forward to the day when self-driving cars are a regularly seen, mundane, run-of-the-mill accommodation for people who have need of them, in addition to being safe, and no more expensive than a regular car.

Let me just take that out of context real quick and assume that a 30 minute drive to your meemaa's house is no more expensive than a regular car, so because of automation and stuff its 5k. Sound good?

[MADCrab]

So... has anybody proposed that Hilgia is the one who's going to save the day here?

It would tick a lot of boxes. It would be a tricky plan, so Loki would be pleased about it. She left the chamber a while back, so she could conceivably be at the surface waiting for Durkon to punch a hole in the roof. And her Empowered Flame Strike would definitely do for the vampire - and maybe everybody else in the room, too. Except maybe Durkon, who is conveniently a statue (what's the durability of magical stone?). And, uh... it wouldn't be too hard to convince her to play along for the opportunity to literally burn the representatives of the system she hates.


I mean, I'm also half convinced the voting is going to end, the vampires will win, and then Davalin's going to say, "Right. I've heard the council's decision, but given that slightly more than half of the council wasn't actually casting their own votes I've invalidated it. See you tomorrow."

There's got to be SOME level of nuance in vows!


And lastly, because hey aircraft: Boeing definitely screwed up by trying to avoid retraining pilots, but they very much screwed up the implementation of the MCAS system, too. The system literally would only read one of two attitude sensors at a time, and switch on each restart. That is mind-bogglingly wrong implementation. Not just "bad," actually textbook example wrong. If you have two sensors like this you ALWAYS use both to validate the reading. Not doing so is negligent design.

[Ruck]

I think that by this point this is the longest book of the series

Fifty strips to go to pass Blood Runs in the Family, actually.

So... has anybody proposed that Hilgia is the one who's going to save the day here?

It would tick a lot of boxes. It would be a tricky plan, so Loki would be pleased about it. She left the chamber a while back, so she could conceivably be at the surface waiting for Durkon to punch a hole in the roof. And her Empowered Flame Strike would definitely do for the vampire - and maybe everybody else in the room, too. Except maybe Durkon, who is conveniently a statue (what's the durability of magical stone?). And, uh... it wouldn't be too hard to convince her to play along for the opportunity to literally burn the representatives of the system she hates.

I don't think Durkon formed a plan that requires relying on Hilgya.

[Grey Watcher]

... I think that by this point this is the longest book of the series, ...

Not quite, if the author himself is to be believed:

Q: How long is the book?
A: 352 pages. It's our second-biggest book ever, being only 16 pages short of Blood Runs in the Family.

[MADCrab]

Fifty strips to go to pass Blood Runs in the Family, actually.


I don't think Durkon formed a plan that requires relying on Hilgya.

One doesn't call it "Plan B" because it's their favorite solution.

[Ruck]

One doesn't call it "Plan B" because it's their favorite solution.

Any plan that relies on someone whose primary trait is unreliability is no plan at all.

Not quite, if the author himself is to be believed:

Huh, well, that would have been easier than counting the main comic strips in each book.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anything involving Hilgya is automatically Plan Z. A random group of dire badgers showing up to attack your enemies for you is more likely to work in your favor.