OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Xel]

Anything involving Hilgya is automatically Plan Z. A random group of dire badgers showing up to attack your enemies for you is more likely to work in your favor.

For some reason this makes me wonder if the dwarves thought to make illegal the casting of Break Enchantment, Stone-to-Flesh, etc on someone petrified by the inner chamber enchantments. Or does a petrified person still count as a creature? Trying to figure out if a loophole would be to bring two (dependable) clerics in, have one cast domination-disrupting spells, and the other negate the petrification. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

Not that it'll have any bearing on how the plot develops here.

Hmm. The vampires might be able to take advantage of this loophole either way. Cast spells at a 1/2 effectiveness ratio. Or cast a single spell to disrupt/disable the heroes, then sit out the rest of the vote in the safety of stone. Now I need to figure out if petrification of a vampire disrupts it's domination. Or (of a council member) invalidates an already-cast vote. Or turns a not-yet-cast vote into an abstain or an effective filibuster. So many possible exploits, so few experimental opportunities...

[skim172]

So, Durkon's taking up his deceased pappy's example of knowing where the weak points were to collapse the stonework. Certainly, bringing down the house upon everyone present is likely to disrupt orderly proceedings.

I'm going to hope that the plan here is in the vein of "This meeting is adjourned and so our vote is placed on hold while we GET DA FRIGGA OUTTA HERE". And not in the line of "Welp, gonna have to kill all the clan elders in a huge cave-in."


But I have a quibble with this comic: It shakes my suspension of disbelief, because there is no way in Hel that a committee meeting would ever move that quickly. They get the question presented to them and already they're making the final vote? This is far too efficient. There should be long, interminable protocols and formalities surrounding the whole process, with multi-part sessions and several recesses, probably some subcommittee meetings, exploratory discussions, brainstorm sessions. Durkon would've had time to fight his way into the chambers, fight his way back out, and eat a long lunch before the committee had finished their second debate session.

And speaking of which, where's the donuts and coffee? No self-respecting committee would be holding such a big gathering without coffee and assorted pastries.

I get that OOTS is fantasy, but c'mon, ya gotta have limits.

[GrimmigerZwerg]

How about another alternative: All Dwarves start a civil war before the gods destroy the world, getting killed by each other in an honorable way. They would go to Valhalla instead of Hel...

Someone should suggest it.

[Jannoire]

But I have a quibble with this comic: It shakes my suspension of disbelief, because there is no way in Hel that a committee meeting would ever move that quickly. They get the question presented to them and already they're making the final vote? This is far too efficient.

You should consider the fact,that after the question was asked, the non-dominated elders startet discussing. They asked whether this was for real or a test of their honor...
Only when the dominated ones voted (and they didn't need to discuss, they had their vote already formed and established) the others started voting the other way...


A thought that came to me...
Durkon was described by Greg to be the equivalent of a support beam....
WHAT IF... someone enlarged the statue of Durkon (like Thor's Might would do) before the hammer returned to Durkon. The ceiling would collapse but Durkon would support the ceiling (being the support beam he is) but enough daylight would flood in to destroy the vampires...

[Quebbster]

But I have a quibble with this comic: It shakes my suspension of disbelief, because there is no way in Hel that a committee meeting would ever move that quickly. They get the question presented to them and already they're making the final vote? This is far too efficient. There should be long, interminable protocols and formalities surrounding the whole process, with multi-part sessions and several recesses, probably some subcommittee meetings, exploratory discussions, brainstorm sessions. Durkon would've had time to fight his way into the chambers, fight his way back out, and eat a long lunch before the committee had finished their second debate session.

That's probably how it would have gone without the vampire domination. After all, the non-dominated elders were primed for immediate discussion when the dominated elders started following their orders and casting their votes.

[Wizard_Lizard]

at what point is the council hall... ... still a hall? If the roof caves in, do the rules still apply?

[Myta]

You should consider the fact,that after the question was asked, the non-dominated elders startet discussing. They asked whether this was for real or a test of their honor...
Only when the dominated ones voted (and they didn't need to discuss, they had their vote already formed and established) the others started voting the other way...

yes, but normally you cant just start voting. The vote has to be called first, which doesnt happen so quickly as skim172 correctly pointed out.

[Worldsong]

So, Durkon's taking up his deceased pappy's example of knowing where the weak points were to collapse the stonework. Certainly, bringing down the house upon everyone present is likely to disrupt orderly proceedings.

I'm going to hope that the plan here is in the vein of "This meeting is adjourned and so our vote is placed on hold while we GET DA FRIGGA OUTTA HERE". And not in the line of "Welp, gonna have to kill all the clan elders in a huge cave-in."


But I have a quibble with this comic: It shakes my suspension of disbelief, because there is no way in Hel that a committee meeting would ever move that quickly. They get the question presented to them and already they're making the final vote? This is far too efficient. There should be long, interminable protocols and formalities surrounding the whole process, with multi-part sessions and several recesses, probably some subcommittee meetings, exploratory discussions, brainstorm sessions. Durkon would've had time to fight his way into the chambers, fight his way back out, and eat a long lunch before the committee had finished their second debate session.

And speaking of which, where's the donuts and coffee? No self-respecting committee would be holding such a big gathering without coffee and assorted pastries.

I get that OOTS is fantasy, but c'mon, ya gotta have limits.

How dare the dwarves have a streamlined political system!

EDIT: on a more serious note the Council of Clans isn't the main form of government so maybe they can get away with a simpler system because most of the time nothing very important relies on them being cautious and thorough.

How about another alternative: All Dwarves start a civil war before the gods destroy the world, getting killed by each other in an honorable way. They would go to Valhalla instead of Hel...

Someone should suggest it.

Ah, a disciple of Eugene. I think Roy would have some objections to this plan.

[Jannoire]

yes, but normally you cant just start voting. The vote has to be called first, which doesnt happen so quickly as skim172 correctly pointed out.

I guess, this is just a formal tone for "let everyone speak, consider every side of the argument". If you don't care for the other's points, why wait before casting your vote?

[Studoku]

I've said this before but destroying the ceiling has been against the rules of every EGM I've been to.

[KorvinStarmast]

Self driving cars are safer than human drivers, we have evidence that says that,

Only if you are held captive to confirmation bias. The Google and Tesla wrecks suggest that the beta test has so far not completed its requirements such that those cars ought to be allowed out in the wild.

A page or so back, someone tried to summarize the major cause of auto accidents. I did't see "not paying attention" listed, but that particular root cause was stressed to us in drivers ed back in the 70's, and before, so I'll just share with you some better advice than that.

Pay attention. Add a healthy dose of respect for how deadly a two ton moving machine is, and don't let it drive you. You drive it.

When you drive No ifs or buts
Drive like everyone else is nuts.

Burma shave.

The other point is that people get taught the rules, but don't bother to apply them because rules are for other people, I need to get to {destination}. When your change your attitude about that (and leave five minutes sooner so that you are not in a rush) your entire driving experience changes.

What's this got to do with the comic strip?

Agency.
1. Dvalin accepts the agency of the Council due to the oath he swore and his lawful nature. For him to change that would seem to change who he is, and he's not the major figure in this comic. He's a sort of supporting actor, or something like that.

2. Durkon knows what he intended with that hammer throw. It's a returning hammer, not a "I shot an arrow into the air, and where it lands I do not care" sort of missile, so a suggestion some posts back that it would hit the Mechane seems wide of the mark. Also, the suggestion that the OoTS "have forgotten" about the Mechane is unsupported. At the moment, the OoTS are Paying Attention to the task at hand, just as any of the few good drivers on the roads do.

[Dion]

Has anyone mentioned mirrors yet?

[Jannoire]

Yup, a while back, there were several posts about Sigdi getting a mirror. Or holding a gem from the troll chest that was the only leftover after resurrecting the dinner club. There also was a mention of a disco ball and someone speculated that it's a violation of Dwarven law to turn a council meeting into a dancing party

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I did't see "not paying attention" listed

For the record, I did include it:

Also, the large, large majority of accidents are not caused by blind spot collisions, but by human error when the information was available, but was not properly consumed (whether because of overconfidence {"I can make this red light"}, tiredness, impairment from legal or illegal drugs or distractions such as phones).

Depending on how you define "not paying attention", though, the whole list is examples of it (heck, the overconfidence example is mirrored in Korvin's "rules are for other people" example). It was, after all, intended to highlight that these errors could have been avoided if the human was following Korvin/Burma Shave's advice perfectly.

But the problem with that is that we are not machines. It takes an enormous toll to be 100% focused 100% of the time. That just not what human nature allows. It's all well and good to say "if every human was careful when driving, we wouldn't have as many accidents" - and indeed, I agree - but the bottom line is that humans are messy creatures and sometimes we have to drive to a hospital in pain, or are exhausted after a long shift, or, or, or, and your brain is simply not capable of performing at 100% even if you did want. And worse, it is patently obvious that not everyone cares, and we can't make them care.

I am guilty of bringing this topic into the thread by suggesting that driving AI is permanently 20 years into the future, and I stand by that because of all the current issues we've touched. But I still think that it has the potential to be better at driving than humans are, because that is a hilariously low bar to jump.

Grey Wolf

[Mysterio]

There's a lot of pages here already, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but since this is a returning hammer, statue-Durkon can't catch it any more. Wouldn't he be shattered when it returns? Unless the meeting is somehow ended or someone removes his condition before it comes back.

[Dion]

since this is a returning hammer, statue-Durkon can't catch it any more. Wouldn't he be shattered when it returns?.

Unless his statue is made of shiny, mirror-like quartz! Maybe a shattered Durkon statue IS the mirror?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's a lot of pages here already, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but since this is a returning hammer, statue-Durkon can't catch it any more. Wouldn't he be shattered when it returns? Unless the meeting is somehow ended or someone removes his condition before it comes back.

A returning hammer tends not to harm the thrower when it comes back, so it likely magically decelerates as it gets close.

On the other petrified hand, Durkon has been visiting the clouds a lot, so what's a third visit in 24 hours between friends?

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I am guilty of bringing this topic into the thread by suggesting that driving AI is permanently 20 years into the future, and I stand by that because of all the current issues we've touched. But I still think that it has the potential to be better at driving than humans are, because that is a hilariously low bar to jump.

An over all good post, but I'll ask this: what is it that we mean by "driving" because there is a great deal that goes into that other than "travel from point A to point B" and that's worth its onw thread on one of the other sub forums at GiTP. I actually agree with your basic premise; we'll be 20 years from it for quite a while, but I do think that "it" is achievable sooner than the fusion as energy prospect. This is one case where I hope to be insanely wrong. The break through to fusion energy sources for power generation changes The Whole Game. (Four decades ago I was studying nuclear power for electricity generation as part of an engineering degree program, but for a variety of reasons, that isn't what I ended up doing for my first career. I remain a nuclear power advocate but that's also off topic ...)

My "pat attention line" and the Pay Attention imperative long pre dates cell phones. But I think we have about beaten that horse into glue.

Back to the Strip:

Returning hammer not harming thrower: that's been standard in D&D since the dwarven thrower showed up in Monsters and Treasure (page 31) (In support of your point)

[Mysterio]

Returning hammer not harming thrower: that's been standard in D&D since the dwarven thrower showed up in Monsters and Treasure (page 31) (In support of your point)

Usually the thrower hasn't been turned to stone though... I'm not even sure he can be considered to be the thrower at the moment... he's essentially a statue. I would even be open to the interpretation that the hammer should just keep flying away until it falls to the ground normally, it's thrower essentially not existing at the moment...

[DavidSh]

If you were designing a returning hammer, what simple rules would you implement to deal with such common scenarios as (1) the thrower is dead, (2) the thrower no longer has hands (amputation, polymorph, …) (3) the thrower is no longer there (trapdoors, telephorts, …)? There are lots of ways a thrower could be unable to catch the hammer.

[Schroeswald]

If you were designing a returning hammer, what simple rules would you implement to deal with such common scenarios as (1) the thrower is dead, (2) the thrower no longer has hands (amputation, polymorph, …) (3) the thrower is no longer there (trapdoors, telephorts, …)? There are lots of ways a thrower could be unable to catch the hammer.

I would give the hammer a degree of sentience and then make it so it can beat up the enemy, and then let the Order of the Stick have five pets (Banjo, Mr. Scruffy, Blackwing, Bloodfeast and the hammer) :p.

[Jasdoif]

If you were designing a returning hammer, what simple rules would you implement to deal with such common scenarios as (1) the thrower is dead, (2) the thrower no longer has hands (amputation, polymorph, …) (3) the thrower is no longer there (trapdoors, telephorts, …)? There are lots of ways a thrower could be unable to catch the hammer.

Same one 3.5 uses: If you can't catch it or have moved since you threw it, it falls to the ground in the square it was thrown from.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which also means it will likely return through the hole it already made instead of making a new one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

An over all good post, but I'll ask this: what is it that we mean by "driving" because there is a great deal that goes into that other than "travel from point A to point B"

Precisely. The case of driving from distribution center A to distribution center B half a continent away is already solved. Highways present little challenges to decision making, by design, so I do expect self-driving long-distance haul to be put on the roads relatively soon, because it's expensive to pay someone to drive for a week at a time, and the route, hazards, and the like are well-known and dealt with already. A hybrid self-driving with optional remote control would probably be all it takes.

On the other hand, driving in cities, accepting weird commands like "I just want to wander through picturesque lands", or immediate response to "oh, there's a parking space right there, take it, I'll walk the rest of the way" aren't going to be solved anytime soon.

Grey Wolf

[gatemansgc]

i just thought of something. since we know book 6 is coming at the end of the year, durkon's plan is going to work pretty quickly. so it's gotta be a roof collapse that somehow doesn't kill anyone living but suns the vampires to re-death.

i'm pretty sure someone else has thought of the same thing but i have to much to do on gaiaonline right now to read all those pages to find it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

i just thought of something. since we know book 6 is coming at the end of the year, durkon's plan is going to work pretty quickly. so it's gotta be a roof collapse that somehow doesn't kill anyone living but suns the vampires to re-death.

i'm pretty sure someone else has thought of the same thing but i have to much to do on gaiaonline right now to read all those pages to find it.

I'm afraid it has been brought up, often. Adherents of the Church of the Sudden Skylight have been predicting it for some strips now, in fact, pretty much since Thor's Hammer showed up (although I believe the original prediction was for a thunderbolt to crush the ceiling, it's close enough they will deserve kudos regardless)

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

I am guilty of bringing this topic into the thread by suggesting that driving AI is permanently 20 years into the future, and I stand by that ...

I tend to agree, based on what I know of the ML models and methods employed elsewhere. If we’re going to move the needle on AI, we need to build a system that has enough understanding of the problem to consistently extrapolate correct solutions for situations not found in the training data.

On the other hand, driving in cities, accepting weird commands like "I just want to wander through picturesque lands", or immediate response to "oh, there's a parking space right there, take it, I'll walk the rest of the way" aren't going to be solved anytime soon.

Or even the much cooler Batmobile option: “Drop me off at the crime scene and find a dramatically appropriate place to park near the villain’s escape route.”

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we’re going to move the needle on AI, we need to build a system that has enough understanding of the problem to consistently extrapolate correct solutions for situations not found in the training data.

Just to be absolutely clear, I agree with this 100%. Just because I don't expect a resolution in my remaining lifetime, that doesn't mean I think we should stop trying. The way I see it, these "permanently 20 years in the future" developments are in fact waiting for a key unknown breakthrough - possibly in a different field entirely - to happen and give it the leap forward (or kick in the backside) it needs to go from here to there, across the divide that is stopping progress. But if we aren't working on it, and thus developing experts, there won't be anyone to recognize the applicability of the breakthrough and get the swift kick in the backside.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

I tend to agree, based on what I know of the ML models and methods employed elsewhere. If we’re going to move the needle on AI, we need to build a system that has enough understanding of the problem to consistently extrapolate correct solutions for situations not found in the training data.


Or even the much cooler Batmobile option: “Drop me off at the crime scene and find a dramatically appropriate place to park near the villain’s escape route.”

You know that the Batmobile already does that, presumably Tim installed it, though it was definitely there by the time Richard Grayson (self censoring because what people call him gets bleeped out) became Batman.

[Dion]

If you were designing a returning hammer, what simple rules would you implement to deal with such common scenarios as (1) the thrower is dead, (2) the thrower no longer has hands (amputation, polymorph, …) (3) the thrower is no longer there (trapdoors, telephorts, …)? There are lots of ways a thrower could be unable to catch the hammer.

Are we talking nethack or dnd? ‘cuz in nethack, durkon would literally explode.