OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Dion]

I think the issue with self-driving cards is...

I’d love to have this discussion!

I think the issue with self driving cars is that human beings have an almost infinite capacity for self deception. Do you know that I’ve met actual human beings who have fooled themselves into the preposterous notion that they are good at driving?

I know. Crazy, right? They’re terrible at driving! Absolutely awful! A lump of fat in a calcified cranium trying to make sense of the world and steer around a bunch of meat to poke at wheels and pedals. How could that ever drive well? Absurd!

But there are fools that think they’re good at it!

[SlashDash]

So the majority here bets on returning hammer collapsing the ceiling? To be honest, that would be my bet.

It's a very (Marvel) Thor thing to do at least.



However, just for the heck of it, I'll toss another suggestion*

If the ceiling is open and V can cast spells through it, then she can cast something that would dispel the vampire domination. I mean s\he tell us they memorized Mind Blank, right?




* Still think it's ceiling collapsing



P.S
Isn't it a bit weird that the dwarven sacred meeting place is actually right under direct sunlight instead of deep underground?

What if the trees attack?!?

[D.One]

I’d love to have this discussion!

I think the issue with self driving cars is that human beings have an almost infinite capacity for self deception. Do you know that I’ve met actual human beings who have fooled themselves into the preposterous notion that they are good at driving?

I know. Crazy, right? They’re terrible at driving! Absolutely awful! A lump of fat in a calcified cranium trying to make sense of the world and steer around a bunch of meat to poke at steering wheels and pedals. How could that ever drive well? Absurd!

But there are fools that think they’re good at it!

I'd like to point out that those will be the ones programming the systens on the self-driven cars...

[Dion]

I'd like to point out that those will be the ones programming the systens on the self-driven cars...

Oh no! That’s the beauty of machine learning! We’ll have literally no idea how cars work.

[SlashDash]

One more thing, I'm still betting on some punchline to arise from the Exarch's "do whatever a vampire tells you to do" line from before

[Peelee]

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

(Identity theft is not a joke, Mod on the Silver Mountain!)

No identity theft at all, I'm not even in the territorial army!

Danke.

Sorry, I don't understand. My German is pre-Industrial and mostly religious.

[D.One]

Oh no! That’s the beauty of machine learning! We’ll have literally no idea how cars work.

And thus all the jokes about "what would happen if our cars were controlled by operating systen X, W or I" became real...

Sorry, I don't understand. My German is pre-Industrial and mostly religious.

Almost Prussian...

[Cazero]

Oh no! That’s the beauty of machine learning! We’ll have literally no idea how cars work.

Well, we'll know for sure a thing or two about how the engine work and what side of the road cars should roll over in normal circumstances.
We'll have no idea how car think, but since we have no idea how people do it either that can't possibly be a problem, right?

[Ruck]

Sorry, I don't understand. My German is pre-Industrial and mostly religious.

Well, shoot. I don't even have enough German that could be considered "my German."

[littlebum2002]

I think the issue with self-driving cards is that some people do NOT want them.

I am relatively sure that - as a civilization - we could, already, technically have self-driven cars if we could all agree that this was the way to go.

In other words: I am confident one could set up a traffic system with self-driven cards ONLY, but having self-driven cars drive around in a traffic system where SOME cards are deiven by idiotic humans is too difficult too set up yet.

Which brings up an interesting philosophical question:

We all know traffic accidents cause LOTS of grief each day.

Consider a world where EVERY car drives automatically, NO human steering necessary. But that requires each car to be connected to some type of internet (let's call it carnet) so that computers can calculate courses to avoid any collision and pick the best way for everyone.
So, in this world you lose the freedom to drive and steer yourself, and you have to give away your position to a central computer network, the carnet.

What weighs more? The personal freedom of the individual to steer however they like, or the right of everyone else who wants to reach their destination unharmed?

We've already had this discussion. Plenty of people HATED wearing seatbelts when they first came out. In fact, unless she was driving, my grandmother always sat in the back seat where she did not have to wear one. So did we cater to these people, and let them drive however they wanted? No, we said that safety is #1 priority and made them wear a seatbelt.

The same will go with self driving systems. Once they are reliably safer than the average driver, it will be a very short time before they are mandated for all new cars.

When I told this to my stepdad, he was very turned off by the idea, and said that a hacker could take over all the cars and kill everyone. I told him you'll almost certainly be safer on a highway with a bunch of people in hacked cars (as long as those cars still have an emergency brake pedal, which they should) than on a highway next to a drunk or tired driver.

[Caerulea]

Which brings up an interesting philosophical question:

Not really. Which is more important, your and other's right to be alive or your right to make mistakes and harm others?
That said, it will be a while before human-driven cars are illegal on roads. But I think it will only be a year or two before we see completely self driving cars on the road.
Additionally, carnet is not absolutely necessary. It would make route planning more efficient, but you could have self driving cars that operate like human drivers, and only consider the cars nearby. They could communicate, but your position wouldn't be stored in some AWS datacenter somewhere.

Oh no! That’s the beauty of machine learning! We’ll have literally no idea how cars work.

But we know it works because math. Unless the human screwed up (again). Also, maybe we know what it is going to do? (Wolfram's proposal is really interesting. The applicable part is the bit about computation contracts to specify what the AI could do.)

[Dion]

If the ceiling is open and V can cast spells through it...

This is an intriguing idea, but I can’t tell if an opening was created directly between the outer chamber and the inner chamber.

It seems possible that V is still completely underground, without direct access to the new hole between the inner chamber and the sky.

[Hopeless]

I wondered if Thor or Balder pops down with Mjolnir in hand.
Balder to ask who threw the hammer at him or Thor using this opportunity to manifest and really offend both Hel & Loki in the process?

[ManuelSacha]

That balding dwarf in the purple shirt in panel one--his hair is a bird. Just wanted to point that out.

Then somebody's argument must be invalid.

[Mightymosy]

I actually don't think you even NEED that much machine learning to have working self-driven cars - at least in the scenario that ALL cars are computer-controlled.

We've already had this discussion. Plenty of people HATED wearing seatbelts when they first came out. In fact, unless she was driving, my grandmother always sat in the back seat where she did not have to wear one. So did we cater to these people, and let them drive however they wanted? No, we said that safety is #1 priority and made them wear a seatbelt.

The same will go with self driving systems. Once they are reliably safer than the average driver, it will be a very short time before they are mandated for all new cars.

When I told this to my stepdad, he was very turned off by the idea, and said that a hacker could take over all the cars and kill everyone. I told him you'll almost certainly be safer on a highway with a bunch of people in hacked cars (as long as those cars still have an emergency brake pedal, which they should) than on a highway next to a drunk or tired driver.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that I think computer driven cars would already be safer in my scenario.

City A: only human controlled cars.
City B: only computer controlled cars (setup done with technology available today, with highest standards in mind, and with people who want to do a good job).

Which city do you think would be safer?

[Dion]

Balder to ask who threw the hammer at him

And the hammer is mistletoe! Or does it hit him in the heel? I get those confused.

[Tuhlore]

Assuming that the no take backs rule apply here too, then vamps have voted yes 4 times (assuming domination release doesn't allow a revote) and 2 non-dominated members voted no.
By my count there are 15 members, though I'm not sure if the High Priest gets a vote.
I'm still unsure if not voting can stall the process l, or if it's just until a majority is reached (i.e. "it doesn't matter, there's more of them than us!").
Assuming it's until a majority, they only need 4 more votes and it doesn't matter.
At least these idiots have some remorse for what they've done though.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm kind of confused why some of you are talking about respecting the council members being willing to sacrifice themselves, when it was clear at first they didn't actually think the situation was real and were merely speaking hypothetically or were being tested. They were talking about it in the same way people talk about those hypothetical "there are two hanging tram cars, and the people have to decide whether to make the other one fall, or both drop" or "there's a fire and you can either save one sibling, or five strangers" scenarios.

That's not even to say that some of them wouldn't still vote "yes" with full comprehension of the situation, but that's not the situation as highlighted by this strip. There's a very big distinction between pondering a cultural ideal, and actually living up to it when you and everyone you know is in danger.

[Jasdoif]

I actually don't think you even NEED that much machine learning to have working self-driven cars - at least in the scenario that ALL cars are computer-controlled.

I somehow doubt deer, or the occasional not-as-supervised-as-we-would-like child, walking across the street are going to conform to expectations...and collision avoidance may as well be able to handle other vehicles, self-driven or not, while it's at it.

What you're talking about sounds more like light rail.

[CrispyCriminal]

Interesting, I wouldn't be surprised if structural integrity of the sanctum being damaged would null the vote if all respected parties are in danger as a result.

That or spells being casted outside the dome will stick if there is no barrier to stop them.

[Dion]

That looks like a small hole. It’s probably too small for V to fit through.

But do you know who would fit through that hole? A sexy shoeless god of war.

[Fish]

Hackers? Bah.

The part that worries me about self-driving cars is that sooner or later, some bright spark will realize that a car is now a cage for a captive audience that can be delivered to whatever destination a bunch of advertisers wish it to be. You get in the car and sit around watching ads on a screen. You say, “Take me to Pizza Stockade.” It replies, “If you want pizza, let’s go to Pizza Fortress!” and you don’t have a way to override the controls. And you’ll sign a User Agreement when you buy the car (or rent the autocab) that signs away your rights to decide where you’re going.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which city do you think would be safer?

Safety is not the only consideration. After all, cars without engines or wheels are far more safe than any car AI or human driven. But the thing is that the system also needs to work, and at current, no AI system has been built capable of dealing with city traffic.

a hacker could take over all the cars and kill everyone

I never will understand how this scenario is even possible (and it is quite possible, and has been done with individual cars on the road right now). Why the heck do cars allow remote instructions while operating? Or indeed, any kind of outside instruction that doesn't need to be confirmed by someone in the vehicle prior to applying? The whole scenario is not unlike xkcd's antivirus in a voting machine adage.

I somehow doubt deer, or the occasional not-as-supervised-as-we-would-like child, walking across the street are going to conform to expectations...and collision avoidance may as well be able to handle other vehicles, self-driven or not, while it's at it.

There is a story about google's AI slowing down in a forest and the engineer inside it thinking it was a bug... because it couldn't see the deer that the car had detected and was slowing down to make sure it wouldn't hit it until they were right next to it. By that measure, AI cars are far less likely to hit a deer or indeed a child, because it's not going to make assumptions like thinking "nah, they won't run into the road, I can keep going 60 kph".

Grey Wolf

[happycrow]

Well done, Cleric, and many happy returns.

[Peelee]

And you’ll sign a User Agreement when you buy the car (or rent the autocab) that signs away you’re rights to decide where you’re going.

That already exists as a concept. It's called "kidnapping." I highly doubt anyone would be dumb enough to implicate themselves by putting their intent to kidnap in writing before the fact. But hey, I'm always willing to be surprised.

[dtilque]

Just curious. Why is there a discussion about self-driving cars in this thread?

[Peelee]

Just curious. Why is there a discussion about self-driving cars in this thread?

Humans steered it in that direction.

[diremage]

Because Durkon's got a self-driving hammer.

He forgot to yell, "Stop! Hammer time," though.

Also, if I was the DM and the player decided to use German to bypass the 25-word limit of Sending I'd just start charging by the syllable. Because even if you're a tinker gnome andcanfitfivehundredlettersperwordthelawsofreality arenotamused.

[Kantaki]

Humans steered it in that direction.

Clearly we need self-driving threads.

[Riftwolf]

What if the hammer returns and shatters Durkon!?

Clearly we need self-driving threads.

I just assume most posts in this forum are on autopilot and everyone's just testing to see if their chatbot can learn morality.