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Thread: House of X

  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Apocalypse wasn't Brainwashed in Age of X-Man: He cut a deal with Nate to keep his memories.

    He also broke down crying and admitted that he didn't want to be the monster he was before anymore.

    Learning the value of love and compassion was all him.

    I don't know how much he's changed, but I think the face turn is legitimate.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
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    I'm not entirely sure Apocalypse is the long term villain. On the one hand, yeah, it's Apocalypse, of course he's the villain. On the other hand, the way X-Men #2 ended coupled with the possibility that some of Age of X-Man rubbed off on him leads me to hope that they don't just go down that simplistic path. I think (and hope) that if they portray him as the villain we eventually see that he truly was doing whatever it is he is doing for the betterment of mutantkind and that he is willing to take the hit and be portrayed as the villain if that's what it takes. Alternatively, just show that he's playing the long game. They haven't really addressed what happens if mutants die of old age. Do they get resurrected too? If not, he just has to wait and eventually he will probably rule it all since he's immortal.

    In other words, I'm hoping it's him just being amoral and not outright evil. I think I saw someone on reddit put it best. Amoral is him being good. He hasn't kidnapped and brainwashed anyone yet so he's being good.
    But that is the thing Tyrant. [Edit: I have not had time to read Rater when I posted this.]

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    When you can cheat death via The Five plus Xavier and another telepath, what is the definition of morality, what is the difference of "consequences" vs "duty / obligations" when you can resurrect the dead and thus there are no negative consequences for your side? If you can resurrect the dead, does your duties and obligations change to your fellow man, wait adjusting to Krakoan speech, to your fellow mutant?

    What are your duties / obligations to non mutants such as much of Otherworld and also the Humans who are on Planet Earth? Your side may not have consequences but mutants can kill these magical monsters, and those humans, isn't this much one sided?

    -----

    I forsee Apocalypse being a Villian but also trying to be a Neutral Villain and not an Evil Villain. But what is Good vs Evil when you can cheat death? What is neutrality? How can you sell yourself with motivated reasoning that your actions make all kind of sense? By having the super pragmatic ruthless Apocalypse vs the pragmatic Elizabeth be in tension, you are going to get a storytelling beat where you reshifted the moral compass of these two via comparison. I expect to see Captain Britain be more Kantian / Duties / Obligations than the old Elizabeth who was Psylocke. There is going to be lots of internal tension driving the story forward with Excalibur is my guess. The new Elizabeth is going to be different than the old Elizabeth. Likewise the same with Gambit who was always the Mercenary but this episode with Rogue is going to make Gambit take care of the people he cares about much more, not just Rogue but expand his circle of concern.

    -----

    Sidenote good point at pointing out that Apocalypse is Immortal, for the Life 9 HoXPoX data page in PoX 3 pointed out / confirmed that Apocalypse is part of the immortal External type of mutants. Something that is not clear was still cannon or not due to various retcons and Selene saying Apocalypse is not an External, well Life 9 highly suggests Apocalypse is an External and thus immortal and outside the normal ebb and flow of the universe where death is inevitable. Memento Mori indeed ("remember you MUST die" unless one is Apocalypse.)

    Apocalypse being immortal changes the story flow and the stakes for Apocalypse.


    Responding to Rater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Apocalypse wasn't Brainwashed in Age of X-Man: He cut a deal with Nate to keep his memories.

    He also broke down crying and admitted that he didn't want to be the monster he was before anymore.

    Learning the value of love and compassion was all him.

    I don't know how much he's changed, but I think the face turn is legitimate.
    I haven't read Age of X-Man, I got bored with that story with the setup before the Age of X-Man launched. The super duper battle of X-Man and his 4 Horseman vs everyone else no matter how many mutants and omegas just left me bored. Is it any good Age of X-Man?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-11-21 at 08:25 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    It's hit and miss: I liked it but there were some not so good parts.

    You should really read the whole thing to understand it properly, but if you're just picking and choosing then Apocalypse and the X-Tracts and The Extremists are the best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Apocalypse wasn't Brainwashed in Age of X-Man: He cut a deal with Nate to keep his memories.

    He also broke down crying and admitted that he didn't want to be the monster he was before anymore.

    Learning the value of love and compassion was all him.

    I don't know how much he's changed, but I think the face turn is legitimate.
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    I meant Apocalypse hasn't brainwashed anyone else yet, if that was responding to my comment.

    I think the groundwork for a possible change in him is there, spread around a few stories. In Rise of Apocalypse he seems to love Nephri and her turning her back on him after he went to rescue her seems to be a major moment in him becoming the harder person that he is later. Another bit where it shows him as a kid (during Apocalypse Wars) and shows that he was a kind kid. Likewise with Evan being a caring kid.

    The Blood of Apocalypse storyline has him question his goals. He wonders why he can't win if his cause is truly righteous. It shows doubt and introspection which would be necessary to change. At the end of that storyline he accepts that the X-Men are the strong and that had things been different they could have been allies. He also tries to kill himself to avoid some fate that the Celestials have in mind for him. That shows fear. And finally there was the Age of X-Man. I think there's enough there to say it's not completely out of character and could be legit.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Nur is, or at least was, an Evil man.

    But he's also clearly the product of his upbringing, his time, and his experiences. He was a kind and sweet boy up until his adoptive father literally had the compassion beaten out of him.

    Also, if he really wanted to wipe out all humans he's more than capable of doing it and could have done so centuries ago so there's clearly more to him than presented.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Also, if he really wanted to wipe out all humans he's more than capable of doing it and could have done so centuries ago so there's clearly more to him than presented.
    If I remember correctly, Ozymandias calls him on that during the Blood of Apocalypse storyline. Apocalypse goes to the U.N and tells them that since mutants have been reduced so drastically by the Scarlet Witch then humans need to take it upon themselves to reduce their own numbers. Otherwise he will release a virus that will kill everyone without an X-Factor gene. Ozymandias later asks why he doesn't just go ahead and do it. I believe Apocalypse tells him that the confrontation is the whole point so he has to give them the chance to fulfill his ultimatum. Ozymandias then makes the mistake of calling him soft and he assumes some kind of martial arts pose. Then Apocalypse proceeds to smash him into a wall and chips chunks off of his face.

    Didn't Evan plan to use a gene bomb to wipe out all humans during Axis, before Deadpool's head talked him out of it?

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    I didn't get around to saying anything about last weeks X-Issues. So my comments will cover New Mutants 2, Fallen Angels 2, X-Force 2, X-Men 3, Marauders 3, and Excalibur 3. For non-spoiler comments, I will say that the books are starting to diverge more. While there are mentions of overarching plot points in other books, they seem to be moving more and more into their own plots. The X-Men have a new enemy and it isn't another rebrand of anti-mutant bigots, and the internal scheming of the Hellfire Club is starting to become clear.

    Spoiler comments on two weeks worth of X-Books incoming:
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    New Mutants #2: The team is found guilty in Shi'ar Space Court. They are turned over to Cannonball and his wife(I believe) to be escorted out. After leaving we see Gladiator telling the daughter of Lilandra and Xavier that she needs to begin getting used to ruling the empire and he needs to go back to being the head of the Imperial Guard. He decides that she needs a teacher and has an idea that I find somewhat questionable. He pardons the New Mutants in exchange for them going to get Deathbird to have her teach her niece how to handle the Imperial Court. Sunspot instantly falls for Deathbird once he sees her. Also, the New Mutants have what Corsair came to take because they hid it inside Mondo.

    Next Issue: Some of the other younger characters who aren't off in space.

    Fallen Angels #2: This issue shows more of Kwannon's backstory. Cable tries to persuade her to help him liberate a village that is being forced to do something related to Apoth. Kwannon offers to help Laura control her rage. Kwannon and Sinister have another conversation. Sinister is still how he has been for most of his past and not his more goofy incarnation from HoX/PoX. The trio of Kwannon, Cable, and X-23 go to liberate the village only to be confronted by a robot of some kind.

    X-Force #2: Following Xavier's assassination the folks on Krakoa are trying to figure out what happened. Examining Xavier they find a tracking device and start to narrow down where he probably picked it up. Examining the killers they notice that they have been enhanced in several ways and that they have had Domino's skin grafted onto them to fool the island. Some of their enhancements are similar to Reaver technology. Jean and Beast go to start up a back up Cerebro so that she can use it to bring Xavier back. Wolverine starts backtracking the killers path. While investigating an airport he comes across Quentin Quire who is also trying to figure out who was able to infiltrate Krakoa. They end up at a facility where more enhanced killers are being engineered/grown. Quire's powers get shut down and Wolverine does lots of slicing and dicing. Quire finds Domino, still alive, floating in a medical tank with parts of her skin missing.

    X-Men #3: Apparently the mutants are growing their Krakoan flowers in the Savage Land. A group of 4 people come through the gate and attack Pixie and Anole in the Savage Land. Upon removing their armor it is revealed that they are 4 old women. The council dispatches Cyclops, Emma Frost, and Sebastian Shaw to see what's going on since they can't use the gate to the Savage Land. Instead they go to Australia to have Gateway take them there. Upon arriving in the Savage Land they confront the 4 old women. They call themselves Hordeculture. They have been trying to gain control of all botanical life on Earth so that they can reset the balance that has been upset by humans (and human mutants). By reset I gather they want to kill everyone. They are after Krakoan flowers because Krakoa is outside of their control and poses a threat to their plans. They escape with the flowers.

    The infographics have some interesting things to say in this issue. They note that Krakoa does still consume mutant energy. Everyone is willingly giving up a small amount so that Krakoa doesn't have to eat a couple of mutants a year. Emplate and Selene are overseeing this with safeguards in place. Similar safeguards exist for Emplate and Selene since they too have to feed on life energy. Krakoa also appears to be ever so slowly shrinking while it is cut off from it's Savage Land component.

    Hordeculture represents a new enemy that isn't just out to destroy all mutants. They are an enemy of everyone. Despite being old women, they were able to defeat Cyclops, Shaw, Pixie, and Anole as well as being immune to Emma's telepathy. So, they are at least somewhat formidable. They also claim that they can now effect Krakoa once they have time to investigate the flowers.

    Marauders #3: This issue focuses on Sebastian Shaw and some events that precede the other two issues. Namely the resurrection of his son Shinobi. Shinobi was the one he was preparing to take the role of Red King. This is one of the few times they have mentioned the events of the Uncanny X-Men run that lead up to this when they showed Shinobi's corpse and it was clear how he died (phasing his own hand into his head and unphasing it). He spends the issue bringing Shinobi up to speed. Sebastian ensures that Shinobi doesn't remember how he died. In the final pages Sebastian lies to Shinobi and tells him that Emma and Kate conspired to kill him and succeeded. So, the foundation of the inevitable power grabs have started to materialize.

    Sebastian asks Shinobi to be his Black Bishop. Kate asks Bishop to be her Red Bishop. He has declined.

    Excalibur #3: The book opens with Rictor being shown to have issues controlling his powers. As soon as he steps on actual ground his powers start kicking in. Then he lays down in a box of dirt. The adventures in Otherworld continue. Shogo has been turned into a dragon. Gambit is still pretty upset that they are roaming Otherworld (trying to level up, according to Gambit) instead of helping Rogue. Jubilee is freaking out over Shogo. Betsy tells her not to worry. He is that way due to him being a child and Otherworld being ruled by faerie magic. They try to make their way to Brian to rescue him. Brian is clearly under Morgan's control. Morgan is communicating with Coven Akkaba and trying to control them.

    Apocalypse is trying to harness magic and comments on how humans have been used to pay for their magic. As he puts it "a finite resource for a finite people with a finite power" followed by "mutant magic will not fade like this". So he sets out to get a better focus, a master of stone itself. So he uses the gates and takes a stroll through what I assume is New York to get Rictor. Rictor is too scared to leave his apartment. Apocalypse tells him the ground is his (Rictor's) to command and he needs to stop fearing it. Apocalypse tells him his depression has no place in the new mutant world. He reassures Rictor that there is nothing he can break that Apocalypse can't fix. They use the gates to go to the new lighthouse from the last issue. On the last page Pete Wisdom shows up saying the Queen needs Captain Britain.

    If Apocalypse hasn't changed in some way, he's definitely playing the long game. Then again, he's immortal, so he usually is playing the long game.

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    Will comment with real thought later.

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    So with Shinobi Shaw being an alternative Red King and now Black Bishop and having phasing powers, and Kate Pryde having phasing powers. Are they setting them up as rivals? Then again Shinobi Shaw and his father Sebastian Shaw also do not play nice with each other as well and most likely Sebastian Shaw is the villain of the Marauder's Book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Will comment with real thought later.

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    So with Shinobi Shaw being an alternative Red King and now Black Bishop and having phasing powers, and Kate Pryde having phasing powers. Are they setting them up as rivals? Then again Shinobi Shaw and his father Sebastian Shaw also do not play nice with each other as well and most likely Sebastian Shaw is the villain of the Marauder's Book.
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    It is mentioned several times that Shinobi has tried to kill Sebastian in the past and is still trying to decide if he should do so again now that he is back to life


    Edit to add: Any thoughts on the newly announced Hellions book? The line up appears to be Havok, Kwannon, Wild Child, Nanny, Orphan Maker, Mr. Sinister, Scalphunter, and Empath. I assume this is either replacing Fallen Angels or is filling in while that book is on hiatus.

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    New year, and already I am well fed with Dawn of X’s X-Men #4 and Marauders #5.

    Also the HoXPoX graphic novel came out for people who are not up to date with the weekly releases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    New year, and already I am well fed with Dawn of X’s X-Men #4 and Marauders #5.

    Also the HoXPoX graphic novel came out for people who are not up to date with the weekly releases.
    I should be picking up this week's and next week's books next week so I haven't read these two yet. Based on previews, I'm mainly looking forward to Apocalypse in a business suit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    I should be picking up this week's and next week's books next week so I haven't read these two yet. Based on previews, I'm mainly looking forward to Apocalypse in a business suit.
    Apocalypse is great but he is the #4 great character in this issue. You are in for a tweet.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-01-02 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Apocalypse is great but he is the #4 great character in this issue. You are in for a tweet.
    I finally got my comics last week so I'm caught up now. Yeah X-Men issue 4 was pretty good. Now I'm wondering if Apocalypse actually had a suit made or if he just shape shifted one.

    Of the new issues, I enjoyed a few things. Forge "reassembling" Wolverine, Apocalypse throwing down with part of Excalibur, Rogue absorbing Apocalypse (I'm sure that won't go bad at all) apparently with his consent, Rictor's comment about turning down guys with beards worshipping him, seeing Storm remind some generic guys that she doesn't need her powers to be dangerous, Fallen Angels hopefully finally getting to something, New Mutants getting back to the space story and court intrigue among the Shiar. I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, but overall everything still seems solid.

    I might not think that once I'm buying 10 books a month or whatever insane number they have coming out. Speaking of which, any thought on Hellions or X-Factor?

    *Edited in* Apparently they announced yet another book today: Children of the Atom. Kid sidekicks for the X-Men if I understood the write up correctly. Not so sure about that one. Also, they are going to rerelease God Loves Man Kills with more story, or something. I'm all for X-Material, but have the X-Titles taken over the top of the charts or something? Is Marvel trying to recapture the 90s where the X-Folks dominated their sales? Either way, I hope it leads to some of the Omnibus editions being reprinted so I can get ahold of them for a not ridiculous price.

    For anyone somewhat up to date, some possible discussion/speculation: What are they going to do with the mutants who are from alternate realities that were dead before Krakoa? I imagine if Rachel or Cable were to die they would be resurrected. But what about Dark Beast, who I believe is dead as of the Uncanny run that preceded HoX/PoX? Holocaust? His 616 version (can't recall his name)? I'm pretty sure there's a black version of Cyclops who fought for the North that crossed over in a series starring Dazzler* (who was hunting down evil versions of Xavier) even though he probably hasn't been referenced since the end of that series. Where's he hiding? If he dies does he get brought back?

    *X-Treme X-Men in case anyone is curious

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    So anyone have any opinions about the X-Men books since we are at the end of several arcs?

    Furthermore an X-Men event was announced yesterday. X-Swords coming July 2020 aka 5 months from now. It will be 15 issues but told over multiple books so the duration of the event will likely be shorter than HoXPoX.

    Since House of X#1 started July 24th, 2019 to Oct 9th, 2019, X-Swords will come out roughly 1 year later after HoXPoX.
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    For the record, the upcoming event is pronounced "Ten of swords" which refers to a Tarot Card.

    In the upright position, the ten of swords represents that you are going to suffer a great loss or failure, be affected by a crisis, or be the victim of a great betrayal, but it also means that this upcoming trouble will be the last trouble you have for a good long time and that things will improve from there. It also means that you have no delusions about the state of the world.

    In the reversed position, however, the ten of swords means renewal or recovery from some past injury, that you should let go of an old grudge, that you are deluded about the nature of reality, or that you're trying to resist something that is either inevitable and will hurt you less if you just let it happen or, worse, is only a problem becuase you'll try to stop it.

    The ten of swords is traditionally depicted by a man lying dead on the ground with ten swords buried in his back and the rising sun in the background.

    This event was advertised with a Picture of ten X-Men affiliated characters, each holding a sword, all prepared to lay a holy smack-down on someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So anyone have any opinions about the X-Men books since we are at the end of several arcs?
    I've enjoyed most of it so far. I wasn't the biggest fan of Fallen Angels, but also felt that it ended an issue or two short. Hopefully there is some kind of follow up (presumably in Hellions) on the main villain thing. Excalibur has been my favorite book so far. Between it and a few issues of the main X-Men book I'm honestly not sure anymore that Apocalypse is planning something duplicitous. It's not clear how much he had to do with setting everything in motion in Excalibur and it's resolution was something of a surprise. In X-Men he's coming across as maybe actually caring about the other mutants. I do wish the art for his costume was consistent across the line though. I like his regular look and his newer monk-like look, but they need to choose one.

    I'm not sure why New Mutants was split between two stories. I think both were worthwhile. The Earth based story has potential to lead to an Identity Crisis type moment down the line. X-Force seems to be the story most directly related to stopping the man/machine future. I also think it's going to horribly backfire somehow, probably due to Beast thinking he is smarter than he really is. Maybe he'll quit and imperil the space time continuum in a childish temper tantrum again once he finds out Charles and Erik are keeping Moira still being alive and a mutant a secret from him since he's apparently entitled to know everything. The irony of him apparently running X-Force after Schism is not lost on me. I do want to note that I utterly despise the kid Hellfire Club. I generally don't wish harm upon fictional children, but they can't die (hopefully slowly and horribly) fast enough. I wish writers would just forget they are a thing and move on.

    Marauders has been interesting. I don't expect Kitty to be gone long. I hope Shaw had more of a plan than what we have seen so far and that it is worth the effort. I have no idea when the Fantastic Four crossover happens given that Kitty is there and looking like her old self. Also, Doom apparently has Doombot/Sentinel hybrids. And I am not sure which side is acting like the bigger bunch of idiots in that crossover.

    The last 2 X-Men issues leave me with questions. Mainly, why do Charles and Erik think they can keep screwing with Mystique when it comes to resurrecting Destiny? Is Mystique really going to just let Orchis build Nimrod because Charles and Erik won't resurrect her wife? And was the council feeling whimsical when they agreed to Apocalypse's proposed "test" to make sure mutants who had their powers stripped by Scarlet Witch really deserved to get them back? On that last point, why should they have to prove anything? They didn't ask to have their powers taken. A mutant gets killed in the Genoshan genocide and they get brought back, no questions asked. Another loses their powers due to Scarlet Witch and they have to fight Apocalypse in hand to hand to combat to prove they should get their powers back? That's messed up. What if they died before Krakoa was a thing? Do they just stay dead or do they also get the easy pass and just get brought back? And again, who thought this was a good idea (aside from Apocalypse)?

    I ended up buying Wolverine #1. I am not a huge fan of Wolverine and if I drop any books this is likely to be the first due to that fact. Having said that, seeing Wolverine being able to play with the kids and try to just live instead of constantly fighting was nice. The other story with Omega Red almost made me feel sorry for Omega Red.

    I'm interested to see where they take things. I assume Hickman is (slowly) building towards something. I also assume there will be something that we all over looked or didn't give enough weight to that in the future will have an entirely different context. Right now, my money is on Doug Ramsey being that thing. Or Moira has decided that if you can't beat them you should join them and she is laying the ground work for mutants to join the Phalanx. This will presumably be met with protest.

    For other upcoming stuff, the Juggernaut series interests me. When last we saw him, he was willing to fight alongside the X-Men against the government. Now he apparently isn't allowed into mutant paradise. I can understand that not sitting well with him. Children of the Atom, apparently about kid sidekicks, could be interesting (or terrible). X-Factor will hopefully explore some of the ins and outs of the resurrection process and answer some questions. Beyond that, hopefully the X-People stay out of big crossovers with the rest of Marvel (unlikely, I know).

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    The test isn't to make sure they're "worthy" of getting their powers back.

    Enough people who were depowered on M-day were threatening to commit suicide in order to get their powers back that the idea of the Five not being able to keep up with the world Load was an issue.

    On completing pointless deaths.

    The Crucible ritual basically exists to make sure that people who are willing to die to get repowered are really to do it while forcing them to put effort into it. You can't just walk in and let Nur kill you, you've got to make a genuine effort to defeat him.

    This prevents mass suicide, discourages people who aren't willing to put effort into things, and counteracts the tendencies of people to look at the Five to mean that they can just throw their lives away and get a new one(There are already people claiming that they want to be killed and resurrected in a copy of Magneto's body.)

    Note that Nur gives Aero every chance to stop the fight if she's changed her mind and says that there's no shame in choosing to live as a human.

    Not to mention the major psychological difference between dying a dignified death on your feet after a duel and killing yourself becuase you don't want to live in the state you currently are anymore: Remember HOXPOX, as far as Xavier's concerned the fact that you can come back later doesn't in any way mitigate the fact that you died so someone killing themselves to get their powers back is, as far as Charles is concerned, still committing Suicide.

    Does that make sense to you?

    The Crucible is an imperfect temporary solution while they come up with a better way of repowering the Mutants.

    (Honestly, I have to think that this is why they're so interested in getting Franklin Richards to come to Krakoa. Franklin at full power could wiggle his nose and give everyone their powers back.)
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    God I love all the Richtor facial expressions with his mouth and eyes in today's Excalibur.

    Richtor how can you be such a snack, yet relatable with your struggles with depression? 🥰

    ------

    Edit: Dozen of small things happen in today's episode which were nice touches. So many things I am not going to talk about for doing so feels like I am losing the magic.

    Yet while it is only like the 13th salient thing in these two issues, we got to talk about Emma Frost's dress in Marauders Issue 9. Followed by the Red Coat on top of that White Dress later on in that issue.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The test isn't to make sure they're "worthy" of getting their powers back.

    Enough people who were depowered on M-day were threatening to commit suicide in order to get their powers back that the idea of the Five not being able to keep up with the world Load was an issue.
    Aren't they trying to bring back all 16 million mutants killed on Genosha? And didn't the Scarlet Witch depower a notably smaller number of mutants? Not sure how the latter of those is the massive drain on the system when the former is the grand plan. Just move them to the back of the line.
    The Crucible ritual basically exists to make sure that people who are willing to die to get repowered are really to do it while forcing them to put effort into it. You can't just walk in and let Nur kill you, you've got to make a genuine effort to defeat him.
    Not to talk about fairness, because life isn't fair, but how is that fair? Mutant A gets killed by Casandra Nova and gets resurrected, no questions asked and no extra hoops to jump through. Mutant B gets their powers stripped by the Scarlet Witch for no reason and has to live without them, only to be told that they have to prove themselves to get them back. That isn't really close to fair. If Mutant B was doable unlucky and died as a result of their powers going out, do they get auto resurrected, no questions asked? Again, how is that remotely fair? Shinobi Shaw killed himself for fairly ill defined reasons and he got brought back with no hoops to jump through. Rahne let herself be killed and she was brought back. Colossus offered to off himself and Domino so they could be brought back without recent memories of their painful experiences. Apocalypse let Rogue kill him. Willing choices, all brought back. People lose their powers to a psycho with far too much power, let's make them prove they have what it takes to be mutants. What sense does that make?
    This prevents mass suicide, discourages people who aren't willing to put effort into things, and counteracts the tendencies of people to look at the Five to mean that they can just throw their lives away and get a new one(There are already people claiming that they want to be killed and resurrected in a copy of Magneto's body.)
    This makes some sense. Discouraging mass suicide is generally a good thing. However, I think each resurrection reinforces that they can in fact just throw their lives away. Especially as they same people are brought back again and again.
    Note that Nur gives Aero every chance to stop the fight if she's changed her mind and says that there's no shame in choosing to live as a human.
    Just wanted to comment that I thought that was pretty rich coming from Mr. "death to all flat scans".
    Not to mention the major psychological difference between dying a dignified death on your feet after a duel and killing yourself becuase you don't want to live in the state you currently are anymore: Remember HOXPOX, as far as Xavier's concerned the fact that you can come back later doesn't in any way mitigate the fact that you died so someone killing themselves to get their powers back is, as far as Charles is concerned, still committing Suicide.
    I'll agree that makes some sense. I think you can circumvent that by just using something like morphine to kill them and then bring them back. Make like they are going to sleep to wake up reborn, whole again. I just don't see why it has to be trial by combat and how a majority thought this was a good idea. The non council members clearly have some issues with it.
    The Crucible is an imperfect temporary solution while they come up with a better way of repowering the Mutants.

    (Honestly, I have to think that this is why they're so interested in getting Franklin Richards to come to Krakoa. Franklin at full power could wiggle his nose and give everyone their powers back.)
    A definite possibility.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    To understand "The Crucible" we have to understand "Scale" and also "Scale over Time" since the Scale is not a fixed thing but a thing that unfolds acts in a non-linear fashion.
    • The Five can Resurrect 1k mutants per week when they were trying it out for the first time in the run-up of House of X per HoX5.
    • The Five can now resurrect 30k mutants a week if everything is running smoothly.
    • Thus it will take 10+ years to resurrect all the mutants they want to resurrect.
    • Even though the Five can resurrect 30k mutants a week, Xavier can't resurrect that many for he gets exhausted and has other tasks unlike The Five.
    • In theory per HoX5 multiple telepaths can reduce the burden on Xavier but even then there will be a limit for X-Factor 2 states the current law is they can only have one Cerebro resurrection helmet active at a time.

    Per Marvel X-Men editor Jordan White there has only been 13 years inside 616 for the X-Men (1963) and the Fantastic Four (1961.) This is called the sliding time-scale for how much time that flows in our world is different than time flows in 616. Furthermore while only 13 years have occured since the Original X-Men forming individual characters may be older or younger than 13 years at that start of it. Under this logic Cyclops should be about 28 but he is mentally older than 28 since he spent 12+ years in other universes and with time travel and all that jazz. (He spent 12 years with Jean raising cable in the future, his body was not transported he instead inhabited the body of another with a mental-psychic-time link connecting these two bodies.)

    This means the vast majority of the mutants are 40 year olds or younger for most mutants are new mutants and not some older mutant like Professor X, Magneto, Apocalypse, Mystique / Raven, etc. In fact most mutants should be 30 or younger since mutant powers manifest in the teen years around puberty and if everyone was 15 when their power manifested and 13 years have passed they would still be under 30. Yet some mutants often antagonists and mentors are older than 30 for you have to have an older generation than the OG5 in order to have characters the OG5 are inspired from, and antagonists for them to fight.

    Likewise HoX2 established that the current year is Moira X 52 and thus the OG5 X-Men should have been founded roughly in Moira X 39. Likewsie HoX2 established Genosha and Moira's fake death happened 3 years ago in Moira X 49.

    HoX4 stated there were 17.5 million mutants in Moira X 49
    • But Genosha happened killing 16.5 million mutants.
    • No More Mutants also robbed another 1 million mutants of their powers leaving roughly 198 behind.
    • An unknown number of mutants gained powers after Avengers vs X-Men Comic Event where they used the Phoenix to rebirth the X-Gene and Mutants
    • As of HoX5 there are about 100,000 mutants
    • X-Men/Fantastic Four #2 has Reed Richards on a datapage states there is about 200k mutants on Krakoa and 10k off the island.
    • Sidenote it appears no non-mutant knows about the Krakoan resurrection process. Maybe this is not an absolute bullet point for Jane Foster knows due to her interactions with Death but most other people will not know and likely Reed Richards...at this moment in time.


    If they can resurrect 30k mutants a week it will take a little more than 11 years to resurrect them all.

    -----




    Back to the Crucible and lets talk sociological theory.

    Xavier is trying to create a Mutant Society. He was trying to create a Mutant Society 13 years ago, a parallel integrated society that needed no home but he gave up on that dream. Current Xavier wants to create a home and via creating a home a parallel integrated society is still possible due to the Resurrection Process. This was not Moira's ambition when she was in the womb at the start of the 10th life (break all the rules) but is an invention of Xavier that Moira encouraged before she changed her mind.

    Since it will take 11 or so years to resurrect all the mutants, who is resurrected first is an inherently a political act. Since Xavier is trying to create an ideal society which choices made are inherently political as well. What is sociological then? Well it is politics and so much more, it is everything needed to "feed" a society and thus it includes politics, culture, language (same or a new one), myths, religion, economics, etc and the types of "social interactions" between all these parts but also things that came prior to a society such as the social relationships between individuals, family, occupation, and so on.

    Xavier wants all of these things to be "fed" for his goal is a self-sustaining society, literally the resurrection machine writ large where not just individuals can not die, but also the culture of that island and the future world will not die. Mutant society will be weaved into the destiny of planet Earth and can not be removed [like a virus.]

    -----





    Thus Xavier and the rest of the Quiet Council including creating the Crucilbe and in the process created a circus——hazing——gladiatorial——death——ritual that will unite whoever is resurrected back in a more FERVENT way than a nice euthanasia. They have to want to be reborn a mutant and be willing to die a painful death to do so. Likewise this circus——hazing——gladiatorial——death——ritual is a public spectacle. The spectacle is the point for the public for it unites / ties the participant in the ring to the greater mutant culture outside the ring saying all this blood is not just on Apocalypse's hands but every mutant's hands, and likewise the resurrection is not just in the Hands of The Five and Xavier but in the Hands of Everyone.

    The Spectacle is the Point.

    -----





    I do not like it and I am not comfortable with it, but my attraction v. repulsion is not the issue here. It is a creation of Xavier that is inherently not neutral (and when I am saying it is not neutral I am not calling it good or bad, merely a human is putting the thumb on the ⚖️.)

    Xavier thus gets to choose (via a committee of who is next in The Crucible) if the depowered mutants should be a priority, do they help Krakoa or not help Krakoa (in Xavier's mind), and even if Xavier is not sure the mere act of performing in The Crucible is like a baptism of a sort, it changes how you see the world, it changes how you see Mutant Kind, you feel part of a greater community. This is not an intellectual exercise it is how Hazing and Boot Camp work, humans are changed by these experience (sometimes subtlet sometimes profoundly, but it happens that is not in doubt.)

    And thus Xavier is creating a sociological influence on the greater society he is creating.

    It in no different than how Xavier manipulated his students with specifically how he trained them with the OG5 X-Men. Only difference is a much higher massive scale, with bigger consequences. It is now micro instead of macro.

    When Xavier was reborn as X, there was an annual issue of Astonishing X-Men Annual (year 2018) well 4 of the Original 5 X-Men adults were getting together for Jean Grey was recently reborn and they wanted to celebrate and reminisce, but also to mourn Cyclops who was still dead. Well the 4 X-Men did not know Xavier was alive and when he showed up at this reunion they were not in a good mood for they felt manipulated by him again and again with them having scars. And guess what Xavier / X does again? He manipulates them once again in this 2018 Annual.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-03-04 at 07:10 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    I really try to stay away from this awful festival of self-adoration with some serious fascist undertones and other unfortunate implications ... and now this crap is going to infect books I actually like, like Runaways. At this rate X-Men will force me enteirly out of Marvel

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Dude? The X-Men have tried to recruit Molly multiple times. It always ends with her punching Wolverine in the gut and then deciding to stay with her friends.

    This isn't going to be any different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Dude? The X-Men have tried to recruit Molly multiple times. It always ends with her punching Wolverine in the gut and then deciding to stay with her friends.

    This isn't going to be any different.
    The difference being back then mere mention of X-Men didn't make me sick. Also I know exactly how horrible X-Fandom was to Runaways fans. I haven't forgotten or forgiven X-Fans wishing Nico and Chase to die in Murderworld so that X-Men can take Molly away.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    A handful of jackass fans should not have any bearing on the fandom and likewise doesn't affect the writers worth crap.

    The Runaways are mostly self-contained with little to no contact with events outside of their own story. This is a token two-shot to address some fan questions before moving onto the next storyline.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    A handful of jackass fans should not have any bearing on the fandom and likewise doesn't affect the writers worth crap.

    The Runaways are mostly self-contained with little to no contact with events outside of their own story. This is a token two-shot to address some fan questions before moving onto the next storyline.
    In my experience it was x-fans who weren't jerks to Runaways fans that's been a minority, not other way around.

    And maybe some questions don't need to be answered? Why X-Men won't show up in Runaways? Because X-Men story sucks. This is like stopping a book I actually want to read and have to listen to Jehova Witnessess sales pitch without being able to talk back.

    I keep away from all x-books. I'm not reading nor supporting them. And this is a second time, after Gwenpool, these fake minorities force their crap down my throat.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    X-Men #8

    Spoiler: X-Men Number 8 may explain a House of X mystery.
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    Reading between the lines with X-Men Number 8, they may have resurrected Vulcan when he was not actually dead [just that everyone thought he was dead.]

    Thus we have two Vulcans linked by dreams / thoughts, and the Vulcan on earth (now in space) may not have all the memories of Xavier's manipulations and the Shiar wars due to him being in space / recent resurrection when Xavier was depowered. Yet his other alive self does have those memories.

    WOE, the Fire inside of me is Fire.

    ———

    Recheck out Sinister Secrets #7



    ———

    But yeah this indicates why there needs to be an X-Factor. I wonder what would happen with Young Cable vs Old Cable, or perhaps Young Cable and X-Man if X-Man ever returns (technically not the same people, just similar enough genetically that they have feedback with one another.)
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-03-11 at 03:59 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    X-Men #8

    Spoiler: X-Men Number 8 may explain a House of X mystery.
    Show

    Reading between the lines with X-Men Number 8, they may have resurrected Vulcan when he was not actually dead [just that everyone thought he was dead.]

    Thus we have two Vulcans linked by dreams / thoughts, and the Vulcan on earth (now in space) may not have all the memories of Xavier's manipulations and the Shiar wars due to him being in space / recent resurrection when Xavier was depowered. Yet his other alive self does have those memories.

    WOE, the Fire inside of me is Fire.

    ———

    Recheck out Sinister Secrets #7



    ———

    But yeah this indicates why there needs to be an X-Factor. I wonder what would happen with Young Cable vs Old Cable, or perhaps Young Cable and X-Man if X-Man ever returns (technically not the same people, just similar enough genetically that they have feedback with one another.)
    Reply to X-Men comments:
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    I have been wondering about Vulcan for a while. Black Bolt somehow walked away from their confrontation. And I got the impression that Vulcan was the stronger, more resilient of the two. So him still being alive isn't a huge surprise to me. The bigger question is where is he?


    Reply to X-Factor comment:
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    Did you read Cable #1?
    Spoiler
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    We might see that Old Cable/Young Cable situation play out


    Overall: I have to go to another town to pick up my comics. The current situation is probably going to greatly complicate that. So, outside of some comments on the last batch I picked up I probably won't have first hand knowledge of what is happening in these books (assuming they are still shipping). I'll have to decide if it's worth putting on a hazmat suit to keep up with Marvel's Mutants. Then again, most comic store patrons are introverts, right? They were probably already self quarantined.

    Edit: Well I guess I won't have to debate on going to get my comics. My state has ordered non essential businesses to close and Diamond is going to stop shipping issues. So, I guess new comic books are not going to be a thing for a while. Hopefully there will still be stores to sell comics and a comics industry to produce comics once this all runs it's course. Stay safe.

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