Medium save progression

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, I've been kicking this idea around for awhile, and the subject just came up in the AIM chat some of us from the boards run. The one I've seen the most is 2/5(level)+1, like the one that Otto the Bugbear uses in his redone classes. (See his fighter for an example of how the progression works.) Now, it works well enough, causing the save progression to start at +1 and end at +9 at 20th level, but as you can see from looking at it in the provided link, it's staggered in kind of an odd way. (That is, most numbers are repeated only once, but 2, 6, and 7 are all repeated twice when they come up in the progression.)

Reina Sweet suggested 5/12(level)+1 since this is mathematically exactly between the RAW high and low saves (which are 1/2(level)+2 and 1/3(level), respectively), but that also staggers oddly towards the higher levels, though not as much. (It repeats numbers divisible by 3 twice and all the others only once... except for 8, which is also repeated twice.)

To illustrate what I mean, here's a chart showing the two methods, as well as the default high and low save progressions for comparison.

{table=head]Level|High Save|2/5+1 Save|5/12+1 Save|Low Save
1st|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+0

2nd|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+0

3rd|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+1

4th|

+4

|

+2

|

+2

|

+1

5th|

+4

|

+2

|

+3

|

+1

6th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+2

7th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+2

8th|

+6

|

+4

|

+4

|

+2

9th|

+6

|

+4

|

+4

|

+3

10th|

+7

|

+5

|

+5

|

+3

11th|

+7

|

+5

|

+5

|

+3

12th|

+8

|

+6

|

+6

|

+4

13th|

+8

|

+6

|

+6

|

+4

14th|

+9

|

+6

|

+6

|

+4

15th|

+9

|

+7

|

+7

|

+5

16th|

+10

|

+7

|

+7

|

+5

17th|

+10

|

+7

|

+8

|

+5

18th|

+11

|

+8

|

+8

|

+6

19th|

+11

|

+8

|

+8

|

+6

20th|

+12

|

+9

|

+9

|

+6

[/table]

Now, it seems to me that the most logical way would be very similar to the 5/12 method, only at 19th level the save would increase to +9 and remain that way to 20th, so that only numbers divisible by three are repeated twice; I just need a good formula to do that with, one that ideally wouldn't break down in epic level play. (5/12+1 almost does this; the result at 19th level is 8.916666, but you always round down.)

And the second part of my question is, once a medium save formula is decided on, what classes should get it and where? Things that immediately spring to mind to me is medium Fortitude for knights and medium Will for paladins (as well as Otto's method of giving medium Reflex and Will to fighters, since they're supposed to be conditioned to withstand the rigors of the battlefield, which include fireballs and mass Will-forcing effects), but is there anything else that it would be good for?

[MeklorIlavator]

I think the 5/12+1 save progression is good, especially if you modify it like you suggest. On the matter of what it's good for, I think the cleric and druid can use it as thier fort save, as they're tough, but not as tough as say a fighter.

[Anxe]

You should probably use the progression already used in Star Wars for medium saves.
1st +1
2nd +2
3rd +2
4th +2
5th +3
6th +3
7th +4
8th +4
9th +4
10th +5
11th +5
12th +6
13th +6
14th +6
15th +7
16th +7
17th +8
18th +8
19th +8
20th +9

[Goober4473]

Some D&D classes emulate a medium save by giving a generic +1 bonus at levels 2, 11, and 20. The class still has a low progression, but it ends up with a medium equivalent bonus. You could call the bonus a base save bonus, so it satisfies requirements as well.

[Renegade Paladin]

You should probably use the progression already used in Star Wars for medium saves.
1st +1
2nd +2
3rd +2
4th +2
5th +3
6th +3
7th +4
8th +4
9th +4
10th +5
11th +5
12th +6
13th +6
14th +6
15th +7
16th +7
17th +8
18th +8
19th +8
20th +9

That's also the progression used in d20 Modern. The trouble is, I can't figure out the formula they used to derive that for the life of me; I prefer progressions that use a logical mathematical progression because I use the fractional saves/fractional BAB houserule for multiclassing.

And apparently the formula that arrives at what I wanted is 51/120(level)+1. I think that now we know why it isn't in core D&D.

[LostOne27]

.4*level + 1.2 gets you your progression with rounding everything down (using up through 1.39 works as well) for the D20 modern progression charts

[Fax Celestis]

The 5/12+1 save is probably a better option, in my opinion, since it doesn't increase at the same points that the 2/3 does at higher levels and makes it a decidedly better option than the 1/3 option.

[Renegade Paladin]

There's a 2/3?

Anyway, I suggested a medium Will save progression to OneWinged4ngel for his rebalanced paladin a couple weeks ago, and his response was that a medium save isn't sufficiently better than a low save to be worth incorporating. No, it isn't as wildly better than low as the high progression is, but then that's the point isn't it? Once you get to higher levels, it's certainly better than Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes.

Opinions? I could easily be wrong on just how much benefit this could be.

[Yeril]

Barbarian
Good Fort, Medium Reflex, Poor will

Being true warriors of the wild, sharp reflexes are a good addition to a stalward Toughness

Bard
Medium Fort Good Reflex, Medium will

Walkers of the world, Bards know how to take nearly anything the world throws at them.

Cleric
Medium Fort, Good will.

Mostly armed in the heaviest of armours these stalward clerics of their gods take their worship to the next level.

Druid
Medium fort, Medium reflex, good will

Powerful avatars of nature druids know how to take the power of nature to the heart.

Fighter
Good fort, Medium reflex

Canny battle skills and a stalward fortitude help these warriors in all combat

Monk
Good Fort, Good Ref, Good Will

Mastering Mind, Body and soul, monks can fend off almost any attack, be it smouldering flames to a venomous poison to a phantasmal being.


Paladin
Good fort, Good will

Taking the role of the cleric to a more Martial standard, The Shining Champions of justice known as paladins take to the world, their toughness matched only by their devtion

Ranger
Good fort, Good reflex
Warriors of the wild, these rangers know how to survive in the wilderness

Rogue
Good Reflex

these cats can dodge yo

Sorcerer
Good will, Medium reflex

Dragonblood and sharp reflexes allow these soulfull battle-casters in battle

Wizard
Good will.

You don't spend most of your life learning how to morph somones mind and make under your complete control without learning how to defend yourself against it too.

[Jasdoif]

That's also the progression used in d20 Modern. The trouble is, I can't figure out the formula they used to derive that for the life of me; I prefer progressions that use a logical mathematical progression because I use the fractional saves/fractional BAB houserule for multiclassing.

(6/5 + (2/5)*level) matches it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmmm. Usually the formulas involve adding a whole number if anything. It's a very odd setup they chose. *Shrug* Oh well.

[Jaerc]

I use (5/12+1) in my games, when I use the medium save. Regarding it's usefulness mechanically: it really does not have much of an impact on gameplay with the so-called "Christmas tree effect" in place, but it a more bare bones system it would be slightly more helpful.