Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

[Max_Killjoy]

Learning trigger discipline, target discretion, and focus translates between weapons, not sure why that's a giant point of contention now.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Because quite a few people apparently think nobody needs basic or mundane skills. Or a switch setting beyond 'overkill'. Or the basic conditioning to focus, evaluate the situation and make the proper decision.

Or even admit the extent to which Dave is twisting the plot to keep Sydney from getting killed or killing other people (whatever happened to that guy who got half his bones broken courtesy of the lighthook, btw?).

Frankly, Sydney shouldn't be anywhere except the gym, the classroom and medical so they can get a handle on her drug dosage needs. Until she can pass a stability test, she should not have a gun, let alone a spaceship cannon powered by a star.

[Forum Explorer]

Learning trigger discipline, target discretion, and focus translates between weapons, not sure why that's a giant point of contention now.

All of that stuff is fine, but like you said, it translates between weapons. So she could learn all of that from using the PPO as well.

Because I actually can't think of a probable scenario where Sydney would actually use a pistol instead of her orbs.

[Keltest]

All of that stuff is fine, but like you said, it translates between weapons. So she could learn all of that from using the PPO as well.

Because I actually can't think of a probable scenario where Sydney would actually use a pistol instead of her orbs.

Any time she doesnt want to destroy a city block?

People say the PPO could be more accurate, but they dont actually know that or have any evidence for it. If its a starship grade weapon, then its not designed for combat against a single human sized opponent.

[Forum Explorer]

Any time she doesnt want to destroy a city block?

People say the PPO could be more accurate, but they dont actually know that or have any evidence for it. If its a starship grade weapon, then its not designed for combat against a single human sized opponent.

She's used it to much less devastating effect than that. I mean the rapid fire mode didn't cause any kind of explosions at all.

But again, and I keep repeating this and you keep ignoring it, she can use the Lighthook for non-lethal and precise take downs. If she's fighting someone in a crowded mall or something, the pistol is still a bad choice compared to using the Lighthook.

[Keltest]

She's used it to much less devastating effect than that. I mean the rapid fire mode didn't cause any kind of explosions at all.

But again, and I keep repeating this and you keep ignoring it, she can use the Lighthook for non-lethal and precise take downs. If she's fighting someone in a crowded mall or something, the pistol is still a bad choice compared to using the Lighthook.

The last time she used the lighthook, she broke half the bones in her victim's body and made a crater in the pavement. Thats marginally more precise, but only marginally.

Perhaps more to the point, she cant exactly train for that. It already does what she wants. Training in marksmanship and hand to hand combat is actually the best thing she can do to help her bludgeoning skills because it means she doesnt default to "smash them into the pavement until they stop moving", since she would actually, you know, have some idea of consequences and alternatives.

[Ibrinar]

Your arm does what you want and obviously you can train how to use it. I don't know how you come to the can't train conclusion?

[Forum Explorer]

The last time she used the lighthook, she broke half the bones in her victim's body and made a crater in the pavement. Thats marginally more precise, but only marginally.

Perhaps more to the point, she cant exactly train for that. It already does what she wants. Training in marksmanship and hand to hand combat is actually the best thing she can do to help her bludgeoning skills because it means she doesnt default to "smash them into the pavement until they stop moving", since she would actually, you know, have some idea of consequences and alternatives.

In the same fight she manages to give Jaggawatt a smack with breaking bones. So she clearly can adjust the amount of force used. It's likely a matter of practice and experience to figure out how to apply the force.

Which is, hey, exactly what training provides. Look at that.

[Keltest]

Your arm does what you want and obviously you can train how to use it. I don't know how you come to the can't train conclusion?

"arm training" like what youre presumably suggesting (ie martial arts) is partially physical development, which doesnt apply to the lighthook, and partially mental development to actually know how things will act and react to specific applications of force.

Sydney doesnt have a problem with whether she can do any specific thing with her powers, she has a problem with her judgement and a generally poor understanding of what she should be doing in any given situation. Training with the orbs wont help that.

[Ibrinar]

Yes martial arts also juggling, playing piano, throwing... There are lots of things where you train the usage of your arms.

Judgement she can learn while using her orbs just fine and it would be judgement tailored to actually appropriately using her main tools not just whatever transfers over from training with other tools. Now custom exercises for her tool set would have to be individually created which is a decent reason to just let her do the normal ones. And while guns are a niche tool for her they have use in some situations so it doesn't hurt to train them. But that doesn't mean she can't learn anything gun training would give her (beside using a gun) just fine with her orbs, you haven't given any good reason she couldn't

As for things she should probably train with the lighthook at some point (and some tests about the details of her power they should do): Judging what she can manipulate she didn't know what her lifting cap was but while Maxima gave her a number that doesn't mean she has an automatic grasp on which objects fall into her limit.

On the other side training how to safely manipulate fragile objects and how to securely bind people with her tentacle without doing them harm can't hurt. (And also requires judging force.)

Throwing is niche but she should have a good throwing range with her super long, 16 ton strength tentacle which can be used for things like flashbangs. And on the other side catching things out the air with it.

Tool use outside her bubble can come in handy, she could probably do that now but many tools aren't made to be used by a single tentacle so training to make it smooth can't hurt, she would be great for things like collecting samples in dangerous areas or disposing bombs.

We don't really know how precise and fast sidney is with the tentacle, but unless that comes as secondary super power or the orb automatically compensating and correcting then she likely should train it

With the high length her tentacle can have training to manipulate several objects independently with on super long tentacle could be handy.

Unless the orbs confer the ability to automatically be as good as you can be with the orbs there is plenty to train with an orb like the tentacle.

Then there are properties they should test, they have an idea about the lift strength but can it be ripped in two by a super? Does greater length weaken it? Is it harder to lift objects farther from her (= does leverage apply?) If she lifts a 16 ton object and then extends her tentacle farther from there how much strength does that end have? Could it maybe increase the lifting cap by pressing down at the other end?

And of course at the end she needs to train how to react to various situation with her orbs, though training that isn't trivial. But that can come later.

[lord_khaine]

Sydney doesnt have a problem with whether she can do any specific thing with her powers, she has a problem with her judgement and a generally poor understanding of what she should be doing in any given situation. Training with the orbs wont help that.

What?!
Training with a gun wont do anything to help her understand what she should do in any given situation besides the one where she runs a gun training course.
It is training with the orbs who would do that. Help her train stuff like shielding up faster, or more accurately controlling the Light Hook.

The X-Men had it right. Professor X didnt make cyclops shoot at pup-up cardboard figures with handgun.
Or collosus train swordfighting. For that matter, i dont think there are any professional air-forces who drills their pilots in marksmanship.

Its the same here. Sydney is litterally a unique asset.
One who they are seemingly paying the same amount of money as a star athlethe.
If your not investing in personalised training for someone like that, then you dont deserve to have them.

[Keltest]

What?!
Training with a gun wont do anything to help her understand what she should do in any given situation besides the one where she runs a gun training course.
It is training with the orbs who would do that. Help her train stuff like shielding up faster, or more accurately controlling the Light Hook.

The X-Men had it right. Professor X didnt make cyclops shoot at pup-up cardboard figures with handgun.
Or collosus train swordfighting. For that matter, i dont think there are any professional air-forces who drills their pilots in marksmanship.

Its the same here. Sydney is litterally a unique asset.
One who they are seemingly paying the same amount of money as a star athlethe.
If your not investing in personalised training for someone like that, then you dont deserve to have them.

You would be mistaken then. The air force pilots are still soldiers and still learn to shoot.

Furthermore, Sydney respects the power of her gun in a way that she does not for the orbs. It is a significantly better training tool for her because she comes at it from the angle of "this thing is scary and hurts people" instead of "this is a cool thing that i found and play with regularly."

[lord_khaine]

You would be mistaken then. The air force pilots are still soldiers and still learn to shoot.

Actually im not mistaken.
It can be you know of an air force who waste their pilots time, and made the mistake of thinking i was talking about them
And all the same, i didnt say learn to shoot. I said drilled in marksmanship.

Furthermore, Sydney respects the power of her gun in a way that she does not for the orbs. It is a significantly better training tool for her because she comes at it from the angle of "this thing is scary and hurts people" instead of "this is a cool thing that i found and play with regularly."

And so we still need an argument for why that angle is better for gaining orb proficiency.

Instead its another reason for why she should not waste time with a gun she will newer need.
"this is a cool thing" is a great attitude for orbs like flight or tentacle. As playing around with things is the quickest way to gain familiarity.

And attitude it should be added, that Sydney does not have with the PPE, whom she correctly identifies as a tool of mass destruction.
There she badly needs familiarity before it would be safe for her to use it in a chaotic super brawl.

[Sean Mirrsen]

And attitude it should be added, that Sydney does not have with the PPE, whom she correctly identifies as a tool of mass destruction.
There she badly needs familiarity before it would be safe for her to use it in a chaotic super brawl.

Archon does not have a gun course for a tool of mass destruction. Especially not one in their headquarters/office building. A real gun at a real gun range, is a much better training tool than going "pew" at imaginary targets while holding a softball.

Plus she's already had plenty of target practice with the thing. How easy do you think it is, to hit dozens-if-not-hundreds of your typical sci-fi space fighters with one arm sweep? We can pretty safely assume that the beam hits where Sydney wants it to hit. And if you want her to train restraint with it, cardboard cutouts and wall paneling are much more replaceable than airforce bases and the occasional mountain range, and the gun still works better.

edit: Also, this is ignoring the actual reason she's being drilled to pass this test right now, that the author alludes to.

They're not training her to use a gun, because she needs to know how to use a gun - I'm sure they would be quite happy to not let her anywhere near a gun.
They are training her, so she can be certified that she can use a gun, and can be trusted with one.

Because that's a requirement for promoting a member of the police force, and they desperately need to promote Sydney to a level of clearance appropriate to her powers and the knowledge they grant her. She needs to be officially promoted, because Archon is a government organization, or at least under governmental oversight, and she needs to have proper clearance for things she is liable to run into - just because she is and does, what she is and does.

On top of that, "certified for using a gun" is a level of trust and authority the society in general can recognize. "Certified for using a stellar beam cannon" is more impressive, but does not fit into the current social structure, for a variety of reasons and purposes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And let's not forget that we can count the number of supers who would be appropriate targets for the PPO on the fingers of one hand. And they either work for Archon (Maxima, Achilles), are in Archon custody (Vehemence) or not on anyone's radar (that guy who fought Maxima and is believed dead).

Time spent on the PPO is wasted. Matter of fact, time spent on any of Sydney's 'powers' is wasted, as she already outclasses anybody not named Max. Put her ass in a classroom and start teaching her the joys of paperwork, red tape, warrants law and all the rest of the job. She was behind her classmates at the start of the comic, she's lost even more ground being MIA for weeks, and if the first pages are still valid she's supposed to graduate, get certified and promoted to Corporal in the next day or so.

[Mechalich]

Because that's a requirement for promoting a member of the police force, and they desperately need to promote Sydney to a level of clearance appropriate to her powers and the knowledge they grant her. She needs to be officially promoted, because Archon is a government organization, or at least under governmental oversight, and she needs to have proper clearance for things she is liable to run into - just because she is and does, what she is and does.

In most of the United States, firearms certification, and maintenance of said certification, is tied up in the requirements to simply be a full-fledged LEO with arrest authority (non-armed LEOs can generally only engage with civil, not criminal, authority). Sydney is hardly the only case where this gets a little ridiculous. In most law enforcement organizations, upper-level managers still have to periodically qualify with their firearms in order to retain their posts, even though they sit in an office all day and rarely even wear their service weapons.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And pilots have to continuously work on their marksmanship, just in case.

Actually, given how automated combat systems are these days, spending time at the pistol range may be a more productive way to use their day than sitting in a cockpit pretending the computer isn't really running the show.

[Max_Killjoy]

And pilots have to continuously work on their marksmanship, just in case.

Actually, given how automated combat systems are these days, spending time at the pistol range may be a more productive way to use their day than sitting in a cockpit pretending the computer isn't really running the show.

The course may actually be good training for things the pilots still need to be good at, like making decisions under pressure, quick target discretion under stress, dealing with compressed input/output cycles, etc.

For some reason, and it's not just in this thread, some people think that all training is narrow, constricted, and superficially direct -- such that if you're running a training course like the one in the comic, you're only training to use a gun and only training to use it in a situation like the one depicted in the course.

But it's not. The things gained from training in one thing are often broadly applicable to many other situations. And sometimes, when you're painting a fence, you're actually developing the muscles and muscle memory for a block or strike...

Sydney's shortcomings both in combat and as the holder of handheld WMDs are directly addressed by this course -- the training she's getting here isn't about using the orbs more efficiently, it's about calm under pressure, not lashing out, controlling her reflexes and instincts, learning to be quick without being reckless, etc.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm now certain that somehow Seneca is a cross-dimensional cousin to Sato Rikiido.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yay, Sydney managed to pass!. Once. After trying all day.

Peggy would probably be better off letting Sydney get a meal and some sleep and trying again tomorrow instead of going again at 9:30 PM. It's stupid when they make medical interns work when exhausted, it's worse when you're doing it to someone with a gun.

[Keltest]

Yay, Sydney managed to pass!. Once. After trying all day.

Peggy would probably be better off letting Sydney get a meal and some sleep and trying again tomorrow instead of going again at 9:30 PM. It's stupid when they make medical interns work when exhausted, it's worse when you're doing it to someone with a gun.

I think it would probably be better for seeing if she is able to repeat it by allowing her to put some time between the trials, but soldiers and police dont necessarily get to decide their hours of combat. Knowing how she performs under less than ideal circumstances is still an important part of the exercise.

[lord_khaine]

And let's not forget that we can count the number of supers who would be appropriate targets for the PPO on the fingers of one hand. And they either work for Archon (Maxima, Achilles), are in Archon custody (Vehemence) or not on anyone's radar (that guy who fought Maxima and is believed dead).

Likely not correct. We also got Hiro and Stalvart. Both are toughnes 3/4 in comparison to Sydney's energy projection 3.

The course may actually be good training for things the pilots still need to be good at, like making decisions under pressure, quick target discretion under stress, dealing with compressed input/output cycles, etc.

For some reason, and it's not just in this thread, some people think that all training is narrow, constricted, and superficially direct -- such that if you're running a training course like the one in the comic, you're only training to use a gun and only training to use it in a situation like the one depicted in the course.

Better training would be found in a flight simulator.

If your want to complete a lifeguard course, then running might help you build endurance. But its certainly more effective then to swim a lot.

But it's not. The things gained from training in one thing are often broadly applicable to many other situations. And sometimes, when you're painting a fence, you're actually developing the muscles and muscle memory for a block or strike...

No your not. Its a different type of movement. Its absolutely a waste of time to paint a fence if you want to practice blocking.

Sydney's shortcomings both in combat and as the holder of handheld WMDs are directly addressed by this course -- the training she's getting here isn't about using the orbs more efficiently, it's about calm under pressure, not lashing out, controlling her reflexes and instincts, learning to be quick without being reckless, etc.

And that still completely ignores the main complaint. That she should be running the course with her orbs. Instead of wasting time with a gun.

Certainly find it dumb in the current comic how much interest the P90 has.
For people like Sydney or Jiggawat its around the level of going from a machinegun to a flintlock.

[Keltest]

The PPO is only a useful weapon if they want to destroy tanks or aircraft carriers. Anything less than that and its an active liability for their (nominal) mission statement. She cant use it against anything human or human adjacent, and even her other orbs have a serious issue with toning down the amount of power they can use to a safe amount.

Between that and the PPO already being as (in)accurate as she can get with it, what would even be the point of training with it, besides inflicting lots of property damage on some random desertscape?

[Ibrinar]

If you want to talk about praxis standard usage scenarios what would be the point of a gun? For enemies that die from guns you can send in unpowered police or soldiers. Or for enemies that have higher firepower but can be gunned down you send in supers whose sturdiness does not require a shield (because as far as we know Sidney can't shoot a gun through her shield) and who don't lose at least one power slot when using a gun or both if she shoots with both hands. For people you want to apprehend but not kill you don't shoot them with guns and her tentacle is the better choice. (If just holding them at gun point is enough then there is no reason to send Sidney.)

Guns are niche usage for Sidney for some special scenarios, in normal operation if guns are a good choice then Sidney is a poor choice. In normal situations dropping her shield to shoot someone dead is a poor use of Sidney as asset.

[Keltest]

If you want to talk about praxis standard usage scenarios what would be the point of a gun? For enemies that die from guns you can send in unpowered police or soldiers. Or for enemies that have higher firepower but can be gunned down you send in supers whose sturdiness does not require a shield (because as far as we know Sidney can't shoot a gun through her shield) and who don't lose at least one power slot when using a gun or both if she shoots with both hands. For people you want to apprehend but not kill you don't shoot them with guns and her tentacle is the better choice. (If just holding them at gun point is enough then there is no reason to send Sidney.)

Guns are niche usage for Sidney for some special scenarios, in normal operation if guns are a good choice then Sidney is a poor choice. In normal situations dropping her shield to shoot someone dead is a poor use of Sidney as asset.

If something is inside the shield, (say, when its big) then having a gun would be handy. Beyond that, the important skills here are transferable from the gun to the PPO. Situational awareness, trigger discipline, reflexes, etc... and they dont have a training course for the PPO that covers these skills. So anything they could muster in that department would just be things Sydney can already do.

[Ibrinar]

if she wants to risk ricochets hitting here (they should probably test how it bounces hits from inside, probably pretty inelastic ). (And if she isn't flying at that moment because otherwise her gun use time is severely limited.) But as I said niche situational usage. A good example for something they can and should train though. First avoiding including enemies if possible because letting that happen is a mistake. Then if she doesn't have to keep the shield up, dropping shield maybe disengaging with flight and then reestablishing it smaller is probably a good route. But that is best trained with some supers as enemies so that can wait for team training.

I think they should probably give her a bodyguard who sits around in her shield to counter the people in her shield scenario, depends on how acceleration influences passengers.

[Forum Explorer]

The PPO is only a useful weapon if they want to destroy tanks or aircraft carriers. Anything less than that and its an active liability for their (nominal) mission statement. She cant use it against anything human or human adjacent, and even her other orbs have a serious issue with toning down the amount of power they can use to a safe amount.

Between that and the PPO already being as (in)accurate as she can get with it, what would even be the point of training with it, besides inflicting lots of property damage on some random desertscape?

She has barely any training with it, why do you think she's maxed out all of its potential uses?

What's more, it's supposed 'inaccuracy' is kinda moot as well, as her last usage of it happened before all the training she just did with guns. As in, she came back from space, and her accuracy was pretty garbage. So you know, raising the accuracy of it would be a point. There is also the point of Sydney literally levels up from using her orbs. It will directly make her more powerful to use them whenever possible.

[DataNinja]

I don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't train with her orbs. Just that there are lessons that may come in handy for other purposes - even if it's not "the use of a gun" - that she can learn from this kind of training. I don't believe that it's pointless, given that she's learning things like discipline. And it's good to change things up anyways.

[Traab]

Max most likely has her own training area to work in, sydney could be sent there to train with her orbs. I agree that the chance of her needing to use a gun is incredibly low as any scenario when a gun is the weapon of choice is one where arcswat probably wouldnt be involved anyways. That being said, i do agree with the idea of training her on using one as it does have a lot of carry over effects that will likely help her with her orbs and general behavior in the field. The fact that using her orbs seems to translate into leveling up somehow does mean that it would be very very wise to give her extensive orb training and theorycrafting sessions, however, training her with guns removes all need for experimenting and guesswork. They know how guns work, they know what you can do with them, and have spent decades mastering how to train you properly in using them. This is not the case for her orbs which are incredibly mysterious in function and thus not easy to codify a list of training strategies to get the most out of them as its mostly guesswork at this point. When you clear a course in 4 minutes with a handgun you can say "Thats good enough to pass." With the orbs? They dont have a baseline to work with or any real knowledge of how good she CAN get with them, so its hard to tell what the "good enough" level would be as they wont know without extensive training till she stops improving at all what the reasonable level of accomplishment would be.

I get the feeling the reason dave is focusing on guns instead of orbs right now is for the sake of relatable humor, as a lot of readers have experience either in military or gun use in general, and thus can grin at the stuff sydney is going through and dealing with. Also, I dont think dave wants to focus on establishing sydney as a super badass at this point in the story, which would happen as we see her master her orbs. Qualifying with a handgun is meh on the power scale. Watching her teleblast her way through a course like an unholy melding of nightcrawler and cyclops would make her seem a little less like the zany girl we all know and tolerate and more like maxima 2.0.

[Ibrinar]

I don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't train with her orbs. Just that there are lessons that may come in handy for other purposes - even if it's not "the use of a gun" - that she can learn from this kind of training. I don't believe that it's pointless, given that she's learning things like discipline. And it's good to change things up anyways.

Keltest is saying that again and again.